Medical School in your 40's, AMA

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So I'm on winter break as an MS1 and I had always planned on posting an AMA for those "super non-trads" considering the journey. I was in my 40's when I decided to go to medical school and did not have a degree, so I was a long way from the finish line when I started (and am still a long way). I had questions back then (in 2015) that I would have loved to have had answers to, so here is your chance to ask 😀

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1. What degree did you end up getting, and how was that experience? Did you work at the same time? How did you balance starting from (essentially) ground zero with being a responsible adult? 🙂
2. Finances :'( Did you use savings to put yourself through the premed journey? I'm struggling with knowing that I'm delaying earning potential in what would be prime earning years in my current job.
 
1. What degree did you end up getting, and how was that experience? Did you work at the same time? How did you balance starting from (essentially) ground zero with being a responsible adult? 🙂
2. Finances :'( Did you use savings to put yourself through the premed journey? I'm struggling with knowing that I'm delaying earning potential in what would be prime earning years in my current job.

1. I did the basic biology degree simply b/c it was most pragmatic given the prerequisites. The experience was fun at times, grindy at others. I did work but was self-employed so that helped with flexibility.
2. I'm retired from the military and thankfully was able to use VA benefits to pay for schooling. I also had made some wise investments when I was younger so we have a decent nest egg. I'm not sure how viable my plan would have been if those two factors were not involved, though I do know others who have done it. It almost all cases, however, late-in-the-game career changers tend to have some $$ put away that makes the journey doable.
 
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How is MS1 so far? Did you change the way you studied in undergrad?
 
Do you have a family?

Yes, I had 4 at home during undergrad and 2 during medical school. Having a family is probably the hardest part of being a non-trad considering the massive time demands that both ask of an individual. It is one of the reasons I chose to attend a true P/F school since it allows me to spend time with my family and not fret about being in the top "x" percentile of my class.

How is MS1 so far? Did you change the way you studied in undergrad?

In some ways, yes. Anki is a big part of my daily routine now and I barely used it in undergrad. Conversely, I always felt I did better in undergrad by utilizing loads and loads of practice questions and I have continued that practice in medical school with good results thus far. I typically make 1 pass at the material and then do questions until the test. Many of my peers don't like to start doing questions until they feel they have mastered the content but I feel like doing questions kills two birds with one stone since it allows you to practice test-taking strategy and serves as a means of content review.
 
Yes, I had 4 at home during undergrad and 2 during medical school. Having a family is probably the hardest part of being a non-trad considering the massive time demands that both ask of an individual. It is one of the reasons I chose to attend a true P/F school since it allows me to spend time with my family and not fret about being in the top "x" percentile of my class.



In some ways, yes. Anki is a big part of my daily routine now and I barely used it in undergrad. Conversely, I always felt I did better in undergrad by utilizing loads and loads of practice questions and I have continued that practice in medical school with good results thus far. I typically make 1 pass at the material and then do questions until the test. Many of my peers don't like to start doing questions until they feel they have mastered the content but I feel like doing questions kills two birds with one stone since it allows you to practice test-taking strategy and serves as a means of content review.

What resources are you using for questions? I found practice questions to be very helpful when prepping for the MCAT and would like to continue next year when I start M1. Thank you so much!
 
What resources are you using for questions? I found practice questions to be very helpful when prepping for the MCAT and would like to continue next year when I start M1. Thank you so much!

This is the beauty of medical school: resource overload, lol. There are tons of Qbanks but the gold standard is Uworld. Some argue not to start Uworld until 2nd year, others claim 2 passes is better; YMMV. Personally, I use RX360, Amboss, retired NBME, some BRS and some Kaplan (these last two are typically curated questions compiled by the upperclassmen, and they also throw in some Uworld q's). Additionally, I have Pathoma and Boards and Beyond questions but I haven't found them to be particularly better than the aforementioned sources. Rest assured, you will have no shortage of Qbanks to draw from in med school 😀
 
This is the beauty of medical school: resource overload, lol. There are tons of Qbanks but the gold standard is Uworld. Some argue not to start Uworld until 2nd year, others claim 2 passes is better; YMMV. Personally, I use RX360, Amboss, retired NBME, some BRS and some Kaplan (these last two are typically curated questions compiled by the upperclassmen, and they also throw in some Uworld q's). Additionally, I have Pathoma and Boards and Beyond questions but I haven't found them to be particularly better than the aforementioned sources. Rest assured, you will have no shortage of Qbanks to draw from in med school 😀

Thank you! Enjoy the rest of your break!
 
What advice would you give yourself if you were 30 years old again, and were 7 years from retirement?

...asking for a friend...
 
Was your age an advantage or disadvantage during the interview trail?

I‘ll be 40 in a few months but stuck at my job for 6 more years or I end up leaving a lot of money on the table from my pension. I go back and forth on medical school (my life long dream) versus NP school (the seemingly more practical choice at 46).. I’d love to know if you considered PA/NP school and how you personally committed to medical school?
 
I am an NP, and at your age, it is probably a better decision. But if you are deeply passionate about medical knowledge, NP school or PA school may disappoint you as they simply do not go in depth enough when it comes to etiology and pathogenesis.
 
What advice would you give yourself if you were 30 years old again, and were 7 years from retirement?

...asking for a friend...

I'd take the retirement all day long. The number one issue I see non-trads run into is lack of income and being forced to live on loans, which then drives their specialty choice/school choice, etc. Having retirement income to live on (this is the scenario I am in ) allows significant latitude in what school you attend and what specialty you ultimately decide on, as well as significantly reduces the financial stressors of medical school.


Was your age an advantage or disadvantage during the interview trail?

I‘ll be 40 in a few months but stuck at my job for 6 more years or I end up leaving a lot of money on the table from my pension. I go back and forth on medical school (my life long dream) versus NP school (the seemingly more practical choice at 46).. I’d love to know if you considered PA/NP school and how you personally committed to medical school?

It was advantageous for some interviews and not for others. My personal thought is that it was also beneficial for some schools and disadvantageous for others. I feel like people are fairly passionate about the 40+ group, in that they either have great admiration and are excited about what you bring to the table or they think it is a foolish endeavor and that the age group is not well suited for the rigors of medical school. When your subsequent exam scores are above the 98th percentile for NBME averages, you get the satisfaction of knowing which perspective is closer to reality 😀

I never considered NP school but I heavily considered PA school for most of my life. I like to consider myself a pragmatist and if I were solely going back into medicine from a career perspective, PA school makes better sense. However, I have reached a point in my life where I realized that I value the knowledge more than the payoff. It's also one of those things where I contemplated that if I went to PA school and then decided I had actually wanted to become a doctor, it would likely be too late to go back to medical school, so, in the end, becoming an MD turned out to be the more pragmatic decision.
 
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Did you end up having to move to your MD/DO school?
How hard was it to move with a family? (Did you have to sell a home or buy a new one? Changing school districts of your kids)
What things did you look for as signs a school would be welcoming or supportive of an older applicant?
You say you selected schools that were pure P/F. How did you find that list?
Did you select a DO or MD school? (Or did you apply to both? And why did you make that decision)
What was your GPA and MCAT (If you don't mind sharing)
Did you have any previous college credits that figured into your GPA?
 
Did you end up having to move to your MD/DO school?
How hard was it to move with a family? (Did you have to sell a home or buy a new one? Changing school districts of your kids)
What things did you look for as signs a school would be welcoming or supportive of an older applicant?
You say you selected schools that were pure P/F. How did you find that list?
Did you select a DO or MD school? (Or did you apply to both? And why did you make that decision)
What was your GPA and MCAT (If you don't mind sharing)
Did you have any previous college credits that figured into your GPA?

1. Yes, I moved, though technically I didn't have to. I had an acceptance to a DO school within 25 minutes of my home, but after experiencing what I felt was some fairly strong age bias in the system, I decided it would be better to move and get an MD so that I wouldn't have to heap the DO bias on top of the age bias when it came time for residency.

2. I did sell a home and bought a new one. This was one of the worst parts of the process because nobody likes paying big real estate commissions. Commissions, moving, purchasing a new home, etc was a hefty chunk of change. Thankfully I had money put away. My older kids were graduated and the younger ones still at home, so changing schools wasn't an issue. We bought in a good school district for when they are older. The actual move itself was a nightmare as well trying to get the timing down between when we had to be out of the old house and when we could get into the new one. I won't do it again if I have to move for residency, we will simply rent out our current home and rent wherever we end up.

3. Honestly, it was the night before dinners that sort of guided my impression of how the school viewed older applicants. I matched/prematched at basically every school where the students seemed unphased by my age. You can tell a lot about the atmosphere of a school from the current students.

4. I took notes during interview days to keep track of what schools did for curriculum, but that info is also easily found here on SDN

5. I applied both MD and DO and multiple acceptances to both and ultimately chose MD for reasons listed in point #1.

6. I had a median matriculant MCAT for my application cycle (think 80th percentile) and a 4.0. I did have previous grades that factored for my OOS stuff which brought my GPA down into the 3.6 range, though I still garnered multiple OOS interviews and a couple of acceptances. In Texas, we have a program called academic fresh start that allows you to wipe out grades older than 10 years, so I exercised that option and cranked out all A's.
 
What are you thinking for speciality? Do you find yourself eliminating things based on age? I’m a couple years younger than you (35) and an OMS 1. I find myself talking myself out of longer residencies often.
 
I'm so glad to see this thread. I'm a super non-trad! I started back at the young age of 38, 2 years of post-bac and 2-years of an MS later and I'm accepted for next year. It's good to know I'm not the only one. I have only gotten interest from DO schools. I didn't have that nice option to wipe away anything older than 10 years so it brought my gpa down a little (still strong though due to the high number of credits I've taken). When did you hear from schools? I wonder if I should give up hearing from MD schools or not? The one closest to me (Ivy League, super hard to get into) has already rejected me without interview. But I still hold hope for one other school that is commutable and for which I'd be a fairly average admit...crickets so far. What are your thoughts?
 
What are you thinking for speciality? Do you find yourself eliminating things based on age? I’m a couple years younger than you (35) and an OMS 1. I find myself talking myself out of longer residencies often.

I have talked myself out of residencies but not based on the timeframe but rather based on the lifestyle/demands. I don't want to be working 90-hr weeks for the rest of my life and I don't want to do shift work for the rest of my life 😀 A couple of years difference in residency length wouldn't dissuade me from doing what I want but what does dissuade me from picking certain residencies is the competitiveness. For example, I have a legitimate interest in derm, however, I also know that in order to be competitive (especially factoring in age bias) would mean being away from my family constantly for the next four years (gunning to honor every rotation, performing research and crushing step 1). I don't like derm so much that I would sacrifice my family time for the next 4 years just to get into the specialty.

I'm so glad to see this thread. I'm a super non-trad! I started back at the young age of 38, 2 years of post-bac and 2-years of an MS later and I'm accepted for next year. It's good to know I'm not the only one. I have only gotten interest from DO schools. I didn't have that nice option to wipe away anything older than 10 years so it brought my gpa down a little (still strong though due to the high number of credits I've taken). When did you hear from schools? I wonder if I should give up hearing from MD schools or not? The one closest to me (Ivy League, super hard to get into) has already rejected me without interview. But I still hold hope for one other school that is commutable and for which I'd be a fairly average admit...crickets so far. What are your thoughts?

I heard from my state schools in November (MD+DO prematches) and February (MD match to my current school). I got rejections from OOS MD schools all the way from December through May, so there is still time to hear from them. DO schools are definitely more non-trad friendly, which is a shame b/c there are lots of MD students that definitely need non-trad peers around to calm their neuroticism 😀
 
I have talked myself out of residencies but not based on the timeframe but rather based on the lifestyle/demands. I don't want to be working 90-hr weeks for the rest of my life and I don't want to do shift work for the rest of my life 😀 A couple of years difference in residency length wouldn't dissuade me from doing what I want but what does dissuade me from picking certain residencies is the competitiveness. For example, I have a legitimate interest in derm, however, I also know to be competitive (especially factoring in age bias) would mean being away from my family constantly for the next four years (gunning to honor every rotation, perform research and crushing step 1). I don't like derm so much that I would sacrifice my family time for the next 4 years just to get into the specialty.



I heard from my state schools in November (MD+DO prematches) and February (MD match to my current school). I got rejections from OOS MD schools all the way from December through May, so there is still time to hear from them. DO schools are definitely more non-trad friendly, which is a shame b/c there are lots of MD students that definitely need non-trad peers around to calm their neuroticism 😀
Nice! Unfortunately I’ve already been rejected from the only “in state school “, the aforementioned Ivy, but we’ll see. I’m really glad I got into my top choice DO school, but options would be nice!
 
Do you think there’s a big difference in how adcoms view someone in their 40s vs. their 50s?

Is it something like “after a certain age, all age groups blend together,” or do specific age groups have specific perceptions about them?
 
Do you think there’s a big difference in how adcoms view someone in their 40s vs. their 50s?

Is it something like “after a certain age, all age groups blend together,” or do specific age groups have specific perceptions about them?

My guess is that everyone has a "magic #" in their head where they think someone is "too old" to go to medical school. For some, that threshold will be lower so I don't think it would be an unreasonable deduction to conclude that yes, some adcoms will be more biased against those in their 50's than against those in their 40's. One of my mentors put it into perspective for me, however, by noting that age bias was out of my control and so to not worry about it and instead focus on the things I could control like grades/mcat/EC's. Regardless of age, if your application shines it will generate enough interest that they will at least want to hear your story via an interview, and I've always maintained that the interview is the non-trad's strongest segment of the process.
 
Year one is in the books and I'm still alive. Some faculty changes this year, coupled with the covid pandemic made year 1 worse than it needed to be, but it was still manageable. My summer classes are pretty cool so I've got a little gas in the tank again if anyone has any more questions.
 
Generally, how did juggling being a parent and spouse and being an MS1 shake out for you?
 
Generally, how did juggling being a parent and spouse and being an MS1 shake out for you?

Well, my wife hasn't left me yet, so there's that 😀 It's tough of course trying to balance things out but generally you just need to make a schedule and stick to it. If your spouse and kids know that you have carved out time for them they tend to not stress as much about it. I just make sure to be very clear about what I have on my plate and when we are setting aside time for certain things and then we stick to it no matter what. For example, my wife and I used to split the nights we would put the kids to sleep but I need that study time so I have a set routine where I put them to bed two nights per week instead of 4.
 
Am non trad ( 39) looking to switch . Am planning to go full time post bacc from summer 2021

1. Havent been in college in the last 15 years , is it possible to manage 3/4 courses per semester in postbacc and still find time for volunteer
2. any feedback on drexel vs meredith post bacc courses
3. comments on how to start mcat prep and what materials you would recommend ( I am like what you had mentioned , learn more from test questions than actual materials) . I was thinking I will start with CARS to learn how the MCAT works , then P/S ( since I haven't done my prereqs yet ) and then study the rest during my post bacc as I take the courses . The postbacc are all 1 yr courses starting in summer and ending in fall
4. The postbacc courses have the med prereqs ( bio. chem physics etc) is it advisable to take advanced courses like biochem , immunology , anatomy etc to help with the MCAT and med app
 
What has been your favorite part of first year? Has there been anything you wished you did differently? I’m assuming you’re having to complete some stuff online right now- how has studying are home been with your family being home too?
 
I'd take the retirement all day long. The number one issue I see non-trads run into is lack of income and being forced to live on loans, which then drives their specialty choice/school choice, etc. Having retirement income to live on (this is the scenario I am in ) allows significant latitude in what school you attend and what specialty you ultimately decide on, as well as significantly reduces the financial stressors of medical school.




It was advantageous for some interviews and not for others. My personal thought is that it was also beneficial for some schools and disadvantageous for others. I feel like people are fairly passionate about the 40+ group, in that they either have great admiration and are excited about what you bring to the table or they think it is a foolish endeavor and that the age group is not well suited for the rigors of medical school. When your subsequent exam scores are above the 98th percentile for NBME averages, you get the satisfaction of knowing which perspective is closer to reality 😀

I never considered NP school but I heavily considered PA school for most of my life. I like to consider myself a pragmatist and if I were solely going back into medicine from a career perspective, PA school makes better sense. However, I have reached a point in my life where I realized that I value the knowledge more than the payoff. It's also one of those things where I contemplated that if I went to PA school and then decided I had actually wanted to become a doctor, it would likely be too late to go back to medical school, so, in the end, becoming an MD turned out to be the more pragmatic decision.

Excellent and insightful answers here!
 
What have you found to be the most difficult aspect of medical school? What would you recommend current pre-meds do, if anything, to better prepare for MS1?

Outstanding thread!
 
Am non trad ( 39) looking to switch . Am planning to go full time post bacc from summer 2021

1. Havent been in college in the last 15 years , is it possible to manage 3/4 courses per semester in postbacc and still find time for volunteer
2. any feedback on drexel vs meredith post bacc courses
3. comments on how to start mcat prep and what materials you would recommend ( I am like what you had mentioned , learn more from test questions than actual materials) . I was thinking I will start with CARS to learn how the MCAT works , then P/S ( since I haven't done my prereqs yet ) and then study the rest during my post bacc as I take the courses . The postbacc are all 1 yr courses starting in summer and ending in fall
4. The postbacc courses have the med prereqs ( bio. chem physics etc) is it advisable to take advanced courses like biochem , immunology , anatomy etc to help with the MCAT and med app

1. It is possible but I would ease into it at first. You need to get your "sea legs" under you before you are ready to break into a full sprint
2. I can't speak to either course directly, sorry.
3. The #1 thing I have learned from my 1st year of medical school is that spaced repetition is like mental steroids. The easiest, though not the only, way to engage in spaced repetition is anki. I would add in a well-vetted MCAT anki deck ASAP.
4. Advanced bio hours certainly helped me, but in retrospect, I believe it was more in line with the advice in #3, that is, spaced repetition. More passes at the same material simply enhance retention and retention = speed. On the MCAT, speed = an increased score. There wasn't anything in those upper courses that helped me with the mcat that I couldn't have done in 1/10th of the time with an anki deck. They are, however, helpful for med school.
 
What has been your favorite part of first year? Has there been anything you wished you did differently? I’m assuming you’re having to complete some stuff online right now- how has studying are home been with your family being home too?

- Anatomy lab was pretty awesome, while at the same time disgusting. I seriously swore off meat for like a month. Overall, my single favorite day was probably the ENT workshop we did. The surgeon was a really good teacher and he let us scope him and stuff.

- Honestly, I would have learned how to use Anki way sooner than I did. I also would have pre-studied b/c it's nice to be ahead of the game so that when a really cool extracurricular opportunity presents itself, you don't have to worry about juggling too much at once.

- Studying at home was a mixed bag. I like being able to just pop in for lunch with the family and such, but it is also very easy to get distracted. The situation also presents its own set of challenges. During my neuro final, my wife took the kids outside for a walk so that they wouldn't disturb me. However, when they came back from the walk they ended up visiting with one of the neighbors in our front driveway, which also happened to be right below the room where I was taking the exam. So for about 20 minutes of my exam, I could hear people talking and my kids laughing and yelling. I still did well but it was a little nerve-racking for a bit, lol.

The biggest bummer of the covid changes for my schooling has been that my summer clinical preceptorship was cancelled and I had landed literally a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do a preceptorship in a fairly specialized field with the program director at my institution.
 
What have you found to be the most difficult aspect of medical school? What would you recommend current pre-meds do, if anything, to better prepare for MS1?

Outstanding thread!

- Honestly, the workload still took me by surprise. I had more than my fair share of 80+ hr work weeks before coming to medical school so I didn't think I would be taken aback by the workload, but it will knock the wind out of you if you fall behind by even a day.
- In my mind, preparing for MS1 should be about "how do I make my life easier in medical school so that things can be a little more tolerable." Keeping that in mind, I would say establishing a good self-care routine ahead of time. Learn to eat healthily and exercise regularly now because the first thing that med students tend to do when they get stressed for time is to dump their gym routines and eat garbage. It's not pretty 😀 The ones that tend to persevere are typically the ones who have had those routines set for a while and so it has become automatic to just stick with it.
 
1. It is possible but I would ease into it at first. You need to get your "sea legs" under you before you are ready to break into a full sprint
2. I can't speak to either course directly, sorry.
3. The #1 thing I have learned from my 1st year of medical school is that spaced repetition is like mental steroids. The easiest, though not the only, way to engage in spaced repetition is anki. I would add in a well-vetted MCAT anki deck ASAP.
4. Advanced bio hours certainly helped me, but in retrospect, I believe it was more in line with the advice in #3, that is, spaced repetition. More passes at the same material simply enhance retention and retention = speed. On the MCAT, speed = an increased score. There wasn't anything in those upper courses that helped me with the mcat that I couldn't have done in 1/10th of the time with an anki deck. They are, however, helpful for med school.
Thanks for anki tip . I am installing it now and hopefully learn to use that effectively .
 
This is off topic, but how was your life as a kid in the 80s? Isn't it rad?
 
- Anatomy lab was pretty awesome, while at the same time disgusting. I seriously swore off meat for like a month. Overall, my single favorite day was probably the ENT workshop we did. The surgeon was a really good teacher and he let us scope him and stuff.

- Honestly, I would have learned how to use Anki way sooner than I did. I also would have pre-studied b/c it's nice to be ahead of the game so that when a really cool extracurricular opportunity presents itself, you don't have to worry about juggling too much at once.

- Studying at home was a mixed bag. I like being able to just pop in for lunch with the family and such, but it is also very easy to get distracted. The situation also presents its own set of challenges. During my neuro final, my wife took the kids outside for a walk so that they wouldn't disturb me. However, when they came back from the walk they ended up visiting with one of the neighbors in our front driveway, which also happened to be right below the room where I was taking the exam. So for about 20 minutes of my exam, I could hear people talking and my kids laughing and yelling. I still did well but it was a little nerve-racking for a bit, lol.

The biggest bummer of the covid changes for my schooling has been that my summer clinical preceptorship was cancelled and I had landed literally a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do a preceptorship in a fairly specialized field with the program director at my institution.

Thanks so much for your reply! It sounds like you have had a good year. Hopefully you will have a chance in the future to work with the preceptor you mentioned even if it will not be as long. Thanks so much for your help and best wishes in M2!
 
This is off topic, but how was your life as a kid in the 80s? Isn't it rad?

It actually gives me a really diverse perspective on things in medicine. I often forget that HIV is a manageable disease now. I also tend not to see every 2 cm hematoma on a peds patient as a blatant sign of child abuse 😀
 
I also would have pre-studied b/c it's nice to be ahead of the game so that when a really cool extracurricular opportunity presents itself, you don't have to worry about juggling too much at once.

You don't hear this often! 😀 However, this is something I'm considering doing in my gap year(s). I am an older non-trad like you that just values knowledge/learning, life balance, etc. I almost literally can't cram (mostly due to a past brain injury I think) so I do a lot of ANKI and long-term studying in my post-bacc and MCAT studying. It does indeed lead me to being a lightning-fast test taker in comparison to my peers.

I was wondering what you would've pre-studied and how.

I was thinking I would pick some subjects that are of interest to me and some projects I have on the backburner currently and finding a Qbank and some video resource to use to focus on those topics of interest, making flashcards and keeping up that ANKI habit. I imagine this would be something like 2 hours a day max. Are there good resources for that out there?
 
You don't hear this often! 😀 However, this is something I'm considering doing in my gap year(s). I am an older non-trad like you that just values knowledge/learning, life balance, etc. I almost literally can't cram (mostly due to a past brain injury I think) so I do a lot of ANKI and long-term studying in my post-bacc and MCAT studying. It does indeed lead me to being a lightning-fast test taker in comparison to my peers.

I was wondering what you would've pre-studied and how.

I was thinking I would pick some subjects that are of interest to me and some projects I have on the backburner currently and finding a Qbank and some video resource to use to focus on those topics of interest, making flashcards and keeping up that ANKI habit. I imagine this would be something like 2 hours a day max. Are there good resources for that out there?

Well, the two gold standards are boards and beyond and RX360. Boards does a better job of presenting the material but RX360 is tied to first aid and the qbank is much, much better. RX360 also includes a built in flashcard set to go with each section. If I could only recommend one resource for someone who wanted to get a head start, RX360 would be it. It's also reasonably priced if you buy it with an ambassador discount, which you can find on reddit or just googling or even emailing them directly. Outside of those two, sketchy pharm is probably the next best thing to add. You probably won't know a lot of the disease processes but if you understand the indications, side effects, etc for most meds, you will be miles ahead of most of your peers.
 
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