Medical School Just for Psychiatry

[2chainzz]

Hello all, I am an undergraduate at an Ivy League institution that has been accepted to medical school early admission. I've done quite well in undergrad as a psych major. I have finally started to take biology classes and really do not find myself enjoying them.

Call me close minded, but I KNOW I want to do psychiatry. My strong interest stems from personal struggles with mental illness and a fascination with the brain. I know some have had my own issues with the field after some bad experiences (before I go on, I will admit I have a small sample size to choose from and am by NO MEANS extrapolating). I have seen my fair share of psychiatrists who IT SEEMED were instantaneously prescribed me medication before I even finished discussing my symptoms/experience. I feel there are no dearth of great psychiatrists doing wonders to help those suffering and I hope to be one of them.

Anyway, I started rambling there. In any case, the reason I am posting here is because, as I said, I know this is what I want to do. But the other medical modules don't appeal to me. For anyone who had similar sentiments going into medical school, is medical school bearable for someone like me? What is important in the medical school process for one to be able to get a psychiatry (literally any psychiatry) residency? May I have a better experience going the clinical psych route?

Though I will admit much of my fear/aversion of medical school stems from a low self efficacy/fear that I won't make it. The program I am accepted in did not require me to take really any hard sciences or the MCAT, which might be feeding into my self limiting beliefs (though I did have to take Orgo 1/Chem/Physics which I did well in)

Thank you good people

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[Psychotic]

.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

No, it's not bearable. There is far more suck than anyone could express.

But you can make it. Most believe the other side is worth it.

Do it.

 

[digitlnoize]

I think the med school matters a lot. I actually enjoyed medical school. I made some great friends, lived in a great town (right by the beach), and learned a lot. The only time I hated it was around Step 1 time, because I was stressing. Other than that, it was pretty awesome. I went to LECOM-B, a DO school in FL, btw.

 

[2chainzz]

You could very well end up hating med school. You will likely struggle, especially during the first 2 years which is science administered by fire hose compared to the slow drip in college. Even people who are gung ho about med school end up hating it, or at least not liking it very much. The fun thing about being an MS4 is seeing all the gunners who have run out of steam and are limping across the finish line with the rest of us; med school will beat a lot of idealism out of you, and it even takes its toll on the gung ho gunners.

Med school is a means to an end. If you want to be a psychiatrist, guess what? You gotta go to med school.

There is a lot of pressure in med school. You get tested a lot. The Step exams suck.

Finally, I think going into med school with your light science background is half crazy. I was a lib arts major, but I did a tough post bacc and took all the pre reqs, and then studied and prepped for the MCAT, and got into med school the usual way. I suggest you take the MCAT, just for fun...see how you stack up. You should at least take the free prep exams (I swear I can't even remember what those are called). But get some idea of how you stack up against the people you will be competing against in med school.

All of the kids accepted into the program are humanities majors with very light science backgrounds. They usually end up doing the same if not better than traditional students. There is the confounding variable being that these 35 students accepted during sophomore year usually come from schools like Yale, Harvard, Penn, etc.......

No, it's not bearable. There is far more suck than anyone could express.

But you can make it. Most believe the other side is worth it.

Do it.

I like you.

I'm just worried I won't be able to do it. I worry I won't be able to memorize all the information. As someone with GAD/panic attacks, I'm worried rotations will freak me out. But I want this so bad. And hopefully if I give it my all I can do it.

 

[pyknotic]

I would recommend at least taking the MCAT (as well as any additional courses required for it), plus a few upper division biology classes such as Systems Physiology, Immunology, Advanced Anatomy, etc. The reason is because your medical school curriculum is going be 95% content from those classes, and only 5% content related to psychiatry, so you need to know if you are either a) able to rustle up enough interest in the subjects to get you through, or b) brilliant and/or persistent enough that you can still pass the classes despite a lack of interest.

Another thing I'd recommend is seeing if you can do some shadowing, both with psychiatrists and clinical psychologists. That, combined with what you learn about yourself taking hard biology classes, should help you decide if going the medical school route is worth it.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I get the fear and inadequacy feelings, especially since you'll be entering from a different pathway, albeit a pathway with a good track record of success. However, I'm assuming they know what they're doing and that you'll be able to do fine. I was years away from most of my science classes when I started medical school, and it was fine. Admittedly, I couldn't slack in the supposedly easy classes like histology and embryology unlike the traditional bio med kids because I didn't know any of that stuff and had to learn it. Still fine, though.

My primary concern is that it's going to be a hard, hard 4 years if you don't start liking any other part of it. Psychiatry will be relatively small part of the didactic curriculum, one rotation in 3rd year of 4 to 6 weeks and then possibly a few electives and a sub-I fourth year. You would especially find yourself in a bad spot if you wind up not liking the psychiatry stuff and not liking anything else. However if you feel like psychiatry is what you really want (and yeah, I'd recommend shadowing and talking to as many psychiatrists as you can), then it's doable and possibly worth it in the end. Personally I think psychiatry is still the best place to be in mental health and am glad I did this route instead of the clinical psychology route.

 

[gibits]

I knew I wanted to go into psychiatry the moment I graduated from my undergrad (which was not an Ivy League). You have better credentials and that is most likely due to you being a driven individual and relatively smart. Both of which bode well.
Med school sucked, I'm not going to lie. I'd go as far as to say I hated it. And yet I got through it in 4 years, I can't imagine someone smarter than me having a difficult time.
For the record, you will be using your internal medicine knowledge from time to time, especially when doing consults. Nothing you learn is completely useless. It all comes down to how bad you want it and if you are as passionate about psychiatry as I am then you have nothing to fear.

 

[Psychotic]

.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

i wanted to go into psychiatry when i started med school and med school has only strengthened that resolve

humanities majors do just as well as any other major

toughen the **** up

 

[MDchouette]

I did not want to be a psychiatrist when I entered medical school, and I didn't like basic sciences much. I always did a little bit of shadowing (an afternoon every ~2 months) during the first years, and this helped me keep my eyes on the prize. I found that second year was much better when we started learning about specific diseases and learning how to interview patients. Point is: you really only have to suffer through one year of straight biology. Most medical schools have some kind of psychiatry course in the second year, so you won't have to wait too long to learn about topics you like.

If you are smart enough to get into an Ivy League and get accepted into this elite program, then you no doubt have the brains to do very well in medical school, even if you don't necessarily enjoy all the material. And you no doubt are smart enough to get into not just any, but a very very good psychiatry residency. I encourage you to think about medical school as a means to an end as another poster said. The better you do in medical school, the more choices you will have for residency.

There are plenty of threads here on clinical psychology vs. psychiatry, but here are some general things to think about:
-Do you want to be able to prescribe medications?
-Do you want to be seen as the leader of the treatment team?
-Do you want to be able to consider the impact of other medical conditions? To make a more sophisticated differential diagnosis, thanks to your medical knowledge?
-Do you think you might want to work with the medically ill?

If the answers to any of the above are yes, you may be better off in psychiatry than clinical psychology. You should find a clinical psychologist to talk to before you decide.

Medical school is stressful, suck-filled at times, but I thought it was a pretty great experience overall.

 

[croc818]

Just make sure it is what you want, and then you can do it. The first two years (nonclinical) was the worst for me, but then clinicals weren't seem as bad because you are around patients (and it's easy to care about them.) I also HATE being judged/evaluated because it's just nervewracking, but med school killed my anxiety about that and testing in general. 8 hour test? no biggie now.

 

[whopper]

I too wanted to go to medical school just to become a psychiatrist.

And I was very frustrated throughout medical school because so much of it doesn't directly apply to psychiatry.

But I will say that you do need to know most of the stuff you learn. Yes, memorizing the Krebs cycle didn't really help me at all as a psychiatrist as far as I know, but physiology, anatomy, neuroscience, pathology, most of these did help. It just doesn't seem like it will apply much when you're learning them but as a clinician, yes they do.

 

[DermViser]

Hello all, I am an undergraduate at an Ivy League institution that has been accepted to medical school early admission. I've done quite well in undergrad as a psych major. I have finally started to take biology classes and really do not find myself enjoying them.

Call me close minded, but I KNOW I want to do psychiatry. My strong interest stems from personal struggles with mental illness and a fascination with the brain. I know some have had my own issues with the field after some bad experiences (before I go on, I will admit I have a small sample size to choose from and am by NO MEANS extrapolating). I have seen my fair share of psychiatrists who IT SEEMED were instantaneously prescribed me medication before I even finished discussing my symptoms/experience. I feel there are no dearth of great psychiatrists doing wonders to help those suffering and I hope to be one of them.

Anyway, I started rambling there. In any case, the reason I am posting here is because, as I said, I know this is what I want to do. But the other medical modules don't appeal to me. For anyone who had similar sentiments going into medical school, is medical school bearable for someone like me? What is important in the medical school process for one to be able to get a psychiatry (literally any psychiatry) residency? May I have a better experience going the clinical psych route?

Though I will admit much of my fear/aversion of medical school stems from a low self efficacy/fear that I won't make it. The program I am accepted in did not require me to take really any hard sciences or the MCAT, which might be feeding into my self limiting beliefs (though I did have to take Orgo 1/Chem/Physics which I did well in)

Thank you good people

Depending on the mental illness, the rigors of medical school will make it worse, not better. Medical school in itself can bring out mental illness in people who NEVER had any problems before (i.e. anxiety, panic disorder, depression, etc.) Heck you'll meet many attendings and residents in medical school that have an undiagnosed psychiatric disorder: i.e. OB-Gyn, Surgery, etc. Disruptive physicians alone could keep psychiatrists very busy.

Add a little sleep deprivation during medical school and residency, and things could easily snowball out of control. The medical profession in general, is not very forgiving in this regard. I would think about, and see if maybe becoming a clinical psychologist would be better for you.

 

[2chainzz]

Thanks for the support everyone. It is something I really want to do so I'm going to hopefully survive. I may have to work harder than others but... that's fine.

Depending on the mental illness, the rigors of medical school will make it worse, not better. Medical school in itself can bring out mental illness in people who NEVER had any problems before (i.e. anxiety, panic disorder, depression, etc.) Heck you'll meet many attendings and residents in medical school that have an undiagnosed psychiatric disorder: i.e. OB-Gyn, Surgery, etc. Disruptive physicians alone could keep psychiatrists very busy.

Add a little sleep deprivation during medical school and residency, and things could easily snowball out of control. The medical profession in general, is not very forgiving in this regard. I would think about, and see if maybe becoming a clinical psychologist would be better for you.

Longterm Depression/Anxiety issues. I'm seeking treatment though. But I don't see it as an impediment to me accomplishing what I want to accomplish if I am actively in treatment. And on that note, I don't think seeking a PhD for Clinical Psych would be significantly less stressful (still have classes, have to TA, work, do research...)

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

Thanks for the support everyone. It is something I really want to do so I'm going to hopefully survive. I may have to work harder than others but... that's fine.



Longterm Depression/Anxiety issues. I'm seeking treatment though. But I don't see it as an impediment to me accomplishing what I want to accomplish if I am actively in treatment. And on that note, I don't think seeking a PhD for Clinical Psych would be significantly less stressful (still have classes, have to TA, work, do research...)

Hahahaha

People really don't understand the rigors of medical education and training to be a physician. It's really unlike anything I've encountered or heard other people talk about.

classes, TA, work, research... once you have 12 hr days in medicine then come home with multiple hours of work to do, sometimes 6-7 days a week - you get a new appreciation for hard work / stress. I literally could work 100 hrs a week and still not know everything for each of my clinical rotations. You basically are going into fields where people have decades of experience more than you every few weeks.

Multiple classmates of mine have worked 24-30 hr shifts. I've never heard of anything like this before medicine.

 

[DermViser]

Thanks for the support everyone. It is something I really want to do so I'm going to hopefully survive. I may have to work harder than others but... that's fine.

Longterm Depression/Anxiety issues. I'm seeking treatment though. But I don't see it as an impediment to me accomplishing what I want to accomplish if I am actively in treatment. And on that note, I don't think seeking a PhD for Clinical Psych would be significantly less stressful (still have classes, have to TA, work, do research...)

SSRIs are known to have the significant side effect of sedation (as they calm down the individual immensely). It's not common for someone to be on one SSRI their entire life, without having to switch over, bc the person becomes habituated to it as well as the very real discontinuation syndrome from SSRIs, which is being seen now. In the first 2 years, when your schedule and environment is relatively well controlled time wise and all you have to do is isolated study and take multiple choice exams, I think you will be fine.

However, once you start hitting the jungle of clinical rotations, where sleep deprivation, exhaustion, residents yelling at you (i.e. OB-Gyn and Surgery), shelf exam taking, etc. play in, your mental health will take a huge hit and in residency (no, the residency is not all outpatient rotations, even though the specialty is mainly an outpatient specialty), when you'll have to be awake at times you don't want to be, etc. Sleep deprivation is a HUGE trigger in exacerbating anxiety and depression.

Not to mention based on your post, I don't think you realize the grave realities of Psychiatry. Is it a wonderful specialty absolutely! However, unfortunately, for psychiatry, managed care has a HUGE impact on how Psychiatry is practiced, in the real world, which is very unfortunate, hence your experience with psychiatrists who automatically start dispensing pills (which in fairness, these are drugs that have been a godsend for so many people).

As a clinical psychologist (where you would still be a "Dr"), but understand very clearly it is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING like the rigor you will have to go through in medical school and residency training in Psychiatry. I really don't think you understand the gravidity of the difference between the two pathways.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

SSRIs are known to have the significant side effect of sedation (as they calm down the individual immensely). It's not common for someone to be on one SSRI their entire life, without having to switch over, bc the person becomes habituated to it as well as the very real discontinuation syndrome from SSRIs. In the first 2 years, when your schedule and environment is relatively well controlled time wise and all you have to do is isolated study and take multiple choice exams, I think you will be fine.
However, once you start hitting the jungle of clinical rotations, where sleep deprivation, exhaustion, shelf exam taking, etc. play in, your mental health will take a huge hit and in residency (no, it is not all outpatient rotations, even though the specialty is usually more outpatient), when you'll have to be awake at times you don't want to be, etc. Not to mention based on your post, I don't think you realize the grave realities of Psychiatry. Is it a wonderful specialty absolutely! However, unfortunately, for psychiatry, managed care has a HUGE impact on how Psychiatry is practiced, in the real world, which is very unfortunate, hence your experience with psychiatrists who automatically start dispensing pills (which in fairness, these are drugs that have been a godsend for so many people).

Exactly. I used to think grumpy doctors were poor sports. Then I realized how bad medicine can be on the human body, and then I began to sympathize with these doctors that are broken down and exhausted.

I honestly can't think of any profession like this. Which is why I would avoid general IM, general surgery or OB/GYN. And that's just the work hours, let alone keeping up with all the knowledge in the field.

 

[DermViser]

Exactly. I used to think grumpy doctors were poor sports. Then I realized how bad medicine can be on the human body, and then I began to sympathize with these doctors that are broken down and exhausted.

I honestly can't think of any profession like this. Which is why I would avoid general IM, general surgery or OB/GYN. And that's just the work hours, let alone keeping up with all the knowledge in the field.

I used to think the exact thing too, when you hear about those grumpy and unhappy doctors. Until I realized it was the system that ground down these doctors. I've had medical school friends whose lives have literally been SAVED both physically and professionally (not failing out), bc of psychiatrists and have gone on to lead very functional lives.

Unfortunately, I don't think the OP understands the effect that Medicine has on your body, your circadian rhythm, your mental health, your family, significant other, financially etc. There's a reason that student health services in medical schools are used in such high frequency by medical students. The stress isn't just from the amount of information needed to be digested and processed alone, as most medical students I know love to read. It's the MANY other factors that are out of your control.

I used to laugh at the attendings on other services (OB-Gyn, Surgery, Internal Medicine) who gave the impression that Psychiatry is somehow not "real medicine", bc if anything those were the ones who needed a Psychiatrist the most.

 

[Jorje286]

I definitely DON'T recommend doing the MCAT "for fun" or otherwise. You're not going to use 75% of the information in there. Like what use was general physics, general chem and organic chem to med school? It's going to be a waste time for you that you could use for much more important things.

Anyway, personally I thought med school was a great learning experience despite how awful it can be. The first two years will suck, and memorization/slave-work is pretty much all what it is. You have to push yourself for hours and hours trying to memorize bullet point after bullet point. But it gets easier cause your brain pretty much gets rewired for that stuff by med 2. I think you're undervaluing yourself. You made it into Ivy League University, so that means you definitely have the IQ to succeed in med school. What's left is the will power and discipline; and there it's important to place yourself in the correct environment to focus and keep your motivation. If you can get hold of these two (and you do seem very motivated despite the insecurity) you'll do very well. I say go for it. The biggest danger is that by the end of med school you might find a match other than psychiatry.

 

[shan564]

There's a thread on this topic once every several months. It has been discussed extensively in the past. I agree with pretty much everything that everybody has said above... including the topics on which people disagree, which are generally debatable.

 

[HopefulSpartan]

Remember you'll be a doctor before you're a psychiatrist. If you like the specifics that define a physician, then go for it.

 

[PikminOC]

You may be surprised with your training. 4 years from now you may decide to do another field and at least you will have all your options open!

 

[jno]

Hey. Just wanted to say that I was in a very similar boat like you four years ago (ivy league psychology undergrad, went to med school to become a psychiatrist). My goals didn't change through medical school. In fact, I just finalized my rank order list for psychiatry residency on the NRMP website. Sometimes you just know what you want to do in your life. It worked out for me. I think it'll work out for you too. My best wishes.

 

[FrasierMD]

Hey. Just wanted to say that I was in a very similar boat like you four years ago (ivy league psychology undergrad, went to med school to become a psychiatrist). My goals didn't change through medical school. In fact, I just finalized my rank order list for psychiatry residency on the NRMP website. Sometimes you just know what you want to do in your life. It worked out for me. I think it'll work out for you too. My best wishes.

Ditto. Took psychology 101 first year, signed up for neuroscience major second year, knew since I was ~18 or 19 that I wanted to do Psychiatry. As I am about to certify my rank list, I couldn't be happier! I have met a number of people on the interview trail and a friend in my class who had the same trajectory.

 

[gibits]

One thing I sometimes see is that people go into psychiatry to "figure themselves out". I had a junior resident like that who clearly had bipolar but would not admit it to himself. He basically told me that since he's a psychiatrist also and could not diagnosis himself then there was no way he was bipolar.
It's fine if you know your own limits and are getting help then you could be a good, or even great psychiatrist. Your own experiences will give you better empathy towards your patients.
Med school is just the **** you need to get through to achieving your dream. If you know that's what you want to be then just do it. It was never meant to be fun. At least that's how I got through it. Maybe your experience will be enjoyable, maybe you thrive on stress, but for me it was just an obstacle that needed to be overcome.

Btw, have you taken an MCAT yet? The point of the MCAT is to determine if you can process info in a efficient manner, not your clinical skills (you learn that in med school). The test is passage based and most of the answers are in the passage. Good luck.

 

[Bassai Dai]

"Hahahaha

(I am Psychiatrist)People really don't understand the rigors of medical education and training to be a physician. It's really unlike anything I've encountered
or heard other people talk about."

(DermViser) "As a clinical psychologist (where you would still be a "Dr"), but understand very clearly it is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING like the rigor you will have to go through in medical school and residency training in Psychiatry. I really don't think you understand the gravidity of the difference between the two pathways."

I am an MD with a Ph.D in clinical psychology and I saw these posts and had to respond to them. You both are EXTREMELY WRONG about the demands of a Clinical Psychology PH.D. program. I REPEAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE DEMANDS OF THESE PROGRAMS!! Now, I am only talking about the stress and difficulty of schooling to get either an MD or PH.D in psychology. At this point, I am not referring to RESIDENCY for an MD or an internship for a Ph.D. in psychology. We have to compare one thing at a time.

During the PHD program, one takes classes, conducts research, teaches a classroom full of students, takes comprehensive and oral exams in order to continue in the program. If the student passes these exams, they become a doctoral candidate and proceed to write a dissertaion and continue conducting therapy/counseling patients during practicum hours, and still hold office hours for students. Befor graduating one must defend their lovely dissertation. This is all done DURING the program/schooling. A student in this type of program does not only concentrate on their studies, but they must be responsible for students among other duties. These programs take anywhere from 7-8 years to complete.

So, when I went to medical school I was lucky to just be able to focus on my studies and not be bothered with students, doing research, among other things. I had some free time in medical school. I liked the idea of studying without having to show up in class. Also, the fourth year was not a difficult year. I never had free time during my psych program. Again, I AM ONLY COMPARING MEDICAL SCHOOL WITH THE PH.D. PROGRAM. I AM NOT INCLUDING RESIDENCY.

Now residency for an MD was much more grueling than a clinical psych internship.

By the way, psychologists are leaders too!! They don’t just have doctorate degrees.

I know that you don't want others to minimize your hard work. But, I am being fair because I know what it is like on both sides of the fence. I have both degrees because I got interested in neuroscience and psychiatry. Although, the psychology degree does touch on neuroscience, I wanted more.

Even after schooling, no clinical psychologist knows everything about their field either. There is SO SO much more to learn.

As far as the work environment goes, many psychiatrists don't take crisis calls after hours. They refer patients to the suicide and crisis center or the emergency room. Many psychologists take calls at home.

Anyway, this saying is appropriate here: "You don't know what you don't know.” So, it is never a good idea to ASS U ME like what you are both doing in this thread. Going by this thread, it looks like you just might make a lot of assumptions about your patients (if not already) and their lives. I really feel sorry for them.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Bassai Dai, I think those of us in medicine assume that since what we do is part, other stuff must be easier, which isn't always true. Lots of assumptions through SDN about how easy it would be to work in finance and make a ton of money, how easy it would be to be a lawyer in a big firm, how easy it is to be a dentist or a teacher, etc. A clinical psychology Ph.D. sounds brutal, and yeah, potentially harder than medical school.

 

[Nasrudin]

"Hahahaha

(I am Psychiatrist)People really don't understand the rigors of medical education and training to be a physician. It's really unlike anything I've encountered
or heard other people talk about."

(DermViser) "As a clinical psychologist (where you would still be a "Dr"), but understand very clearly it is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING like the rigor you will have to go through in medical school and residency training in Psychiatry. I really don't think you understand the gravidity of the difference between the two pathways."

I am an MD with a Ph.D in clinical psychology and I saw these posts and had to respond to them. You both are EXTREMELY WRONG about the demands of a Clinical Psychology PH.D. program. I REPEAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE DEMANDS OF THESE PROGRAMS!! Now, I am only talking about the stress and difficulty of schooling to get either an MD or PH.D in psychology. At this point, I am not referring to RESIDENCY for an MD or an internship for a Ph.D. in psychology. We have to compare one thing at a time.

During the PHD program, one takes classes, conducts research, teaches a classroom full of students, takes comprehensive and oral exams in order to continue in the program. If the student passes these exams, they become a doctoral candidate and proceed to write a dissertaion and continue conducting therapy/counseling patients during practicum hours, and still hold office hours for students. Befor graduating one must defend their lovely dissertation. This is all done DURING the program/schooling. A student in this type of program does not only concentrate on their studies, but they must be responsible for students among other duties. These programs take anywhere from 7-8 years to complete.

So, when I went to medical school I was lucky to just be able to focus on my studies and not be bothered with students, doing research, among other things. I had some free time in medical school. I liked the idea of studying without having to show up in class. Also, the fourth year was not a difficult year. I never had free time during my psych program. Again, I AM ONLY COMPARING MEDICAL SCHOOL WITH THE PH.D. PROGRAM. I AM NOT INCLUDING RESIDENCY.

Now residency for an MD was much more grueling than a clinical psych internship.

By the way, psychologists are leaders too!! They don’t just have doctorate degrees.

I know that you don't want others to minimize your hard work. But, I am being fair because I know what it is like on both sides of the fence. I have both degrees because I got interested in neuroscience and psychiatry. Although, the psychology degree does touch on neuroscience, I wanted more.

Even after schooling, no clinical psychologist knows everything about their field either. There is SO SO much more to learn.

As far as the work environment goes, many psychiatrists don't take crisis calls after hours. They refer patients to the suicide and crisis center or the emergency room. Many psychologists take calls at home.

Anyway, this saying is appropriate here: "You don't know what you don't know.” So, it is never a good idea to ASS U ME like what you are both doing in this thread. Going by this thread, it looks like you just might make a lot of assumptions about your patients (if not already) and their lives. I really feel sorry for them.

You're flying off the handle font-wise. Purple all caps with an over-the-top 1 post hx. I'll try to take your point. But...uhhh....try posting less psychotic if you want to be more effective.

 

[StECT]

You flying off the handle font-wise. Purple all caps with an over-the-top 1 post hx. I'll try to take your point. But...uhhh....try posting less psychotic if you want to be more effective.

Two different shades of purple no less. I think they are lilac and lavender.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

You flying off the handle font-wise. Purple all caps with an over-the-top 1 post hx. I'll try to take your point. But...uhhh....try posting less psychotic if you want to be more effective.

Maybe it's the counteract the whole "too long, didn't read" post thing. If it's purple with different fonts, people will read it.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

"Hahahaha

(I am Psychiatrist)People really don't understand the rigors of medical education and training to be a physician. It's really unlike anything I've encountered
or heard other people talk about."

(DermViser) "As a clinical psychologist (where you would still be a "Dr"), but understand very clearly it is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING like the rigor you will have to go through in medical school and residency training in Psychiatry. I really don't think you understand the gravidity of the difference between the two pathways."

I am an MD with a Ph.D in clinical psychology and I saw these posts and had to respond to them. You both are EXTREMELY WRONG about the demands of a Clinical Psychology PH.D. program. I REPEAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE DEMANDS OF THESE PROGRAMS!! Now, I am only talking about the stress and difficulty of schooling to get either an MD or PH.D in psychology. At this point, I am not referring to RESIDENCY for an MD or an internship for a Ph.D. in psychology. We have to compare one thing at a time.

During the PHD program, one takes classes, conducts research, teaches a classroom full of students, takes comprehensive and oral exams in order to continue in the program. If the student passes these exams, they become a doctoral candidate and proceed to write a dissertaion and continue conducting therapy/counseling patients during practicum hours, and still hold office hours for students. Befor graduating one must defend their lovely dissertation. This is all done DURING the program/schooling. A student in this type of program does not only concentrate on their studies, but they must be responsible for students among other duties. These programs take anywhere from 7-8 years to complete.

So, when I went to medical school I was lucky to just be able to focus on my studies and not be bothered with students, doing research, among other things. I had some free time in medical school. I liked the idea of studying without having to show up in class. Also, the fourth year was not a difficult year. I never had free time during my psych program. Again, I AM ONLY COMPARING MEDICAL SCHOOL WITH THE PH.D. PROGRAM. I AM NOT INCLUDING RESIDENCY.

Now residency for an MD was much more grueling than a clinical psych internship.

By the way, psychologists are leaders too!! They don’t just have doctorate degrees.

I know that you don't want others to minimize your hard work. But, I am being fair because I know what it is like on both sides of the fence. I have both degrees because I got interested in neuroscience and psychiatry. Although, the psychology degree does touch on neuroscience, I wanted more.

Even after schooling, no clinical psychologist knows everything about their field either. There is SO SO much more to learn.

As far as the work environment goes, many psychiatrists don't take crisis calls after hours. They refer patients to the suicide and crisis center or the emergency room. Many psychologists take calls at home.

Anyway, this saying is appropriate here: "You don't know what you don't know.” So, it is never a good idea to ASS U ME like what you are both doing in this thread. Going by this thread, it looks like you just might make a lot of assumptions about your patients (if not already) and their lives. I really feel sorry for them.

Wait, so do they have 24-30 hr shifts or not in clinical psychology.

I was referring to medical training in general - including surgery, inpatient internal medicine, etc.

Honestly, I couldn't read half your post because of the changing of the fonts.

But please answer how many 100 hr weeks or 24 hr shifts occur in clinical psychology. Is that the norm for medical school? Nope. But it has happened to many students at my school (maybe we have malignant IM/Surgery?). And the quote, "I'm not comparing it to residency, only med school." Well guess what? At some institutions the medical students work as much as the residents (in fact, I've heard attendings say - "Oh yeah, medical students don't have work restriction hours like the residents. We can do what we want.") So your idea that you will only compare it to medical school is flawed. You have to compare it to residency also.

Crazy font for effect!!@##!$!@@#$

Now, I am only talking about the stress and difficulty of schooling to get either an MD or PH.D in psychology. At this point, I am not referring to RESIDENCY for an MD

Unfortunately, you just sunk your battleship with this one statement. The fact that on some rotations the medical students work similar hours to interns and residents destroys your argument.

Please reply though, you say we are making assumptions and that Ph.Ds have equivalent 100 hr weeks or 24 hr shifts or overnight shifts, etc. Please share with specifics and then we don't have to assume.

Again, I AM ONLY COMPARING MEDICAL SCHOOL WITH THE PH.D. PROGRAM. I AM NOT INCLUDING RESIDENCY.

It sounds like you went to a friendly medical school. Plenty rotations that had us working as hard as the residents.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

Bassai Dai, I think those of us in medicine assume that since what we do is part, other stuff must be easier, which isn't always true. Lots of assumptions through SDN about how easy it would be to work in finance and make a ton of money, how easy it would be to be a lawyer in a big firm, how easy it is to be a dentist or a teacher, etc. A clinical psychology Ph.D. sounds brutal, and yeah, potentially harder than medical school.

Haha, I've worked in other careers. Medicine is harder.

Most jobs don't require 80 hrs of work a week. Even those that do rarely have you staying awake overnight and ruining your circadium rhythm.

Please tell me the jobs that have people work over 80 hrs a week and work 14 hrs overnight, or 24 hr shifts. I've done some of this already as a medical student. What jobs are these?

A clinical psychology Ph.D sounds challenging. But the surgical residents and medical students are working 90 hrs a week often. They are barely sleeping and eating. One of my friends (med student) just worked 24 hrs a few months ago. What Ph.D. programs do this? Am I only talking about surgery? Sure. That and malignant IM programs. They are on a different level.

Please share the # of hours worked per week and the longest shifts and the inclusion of overnight shifts or not for the Ph.D.

Let's deal with specifics. I have a friend who lost > 20 lbs on a surgery rotation due to 100 hr weeks. Let's use real data here.

 

[Chocochipcookie]

I was also a psychology undergrad (albeit not at an Ivy League) and went into medical school firmly knowing that I wanted to be a psychiatrist and nothing else. However, I did take the MCATs and the prerequisite science classes. Looking back, I do agree with the poster above that a lot of biology, almost all of physics, chemistry and organic chemistry are pretty useless in the grand scheme of things. Medical school is difficult but in the end it wasn't all that bad either. Once you get the hang of things and develop a study routine, it gets more automatic. Also, a lot of medical school coursework like physiology and pathology aren't covered in undergrad and aren't prerequisites or even tested on the MCAT and you may not even know right now that you may enjoy learning about the body and disease once you get there.

I believe if you've already worked hard to get into an Ivy League and been selected for the medicine program, part of your battle is already done and I think you can handle the rest given that you must already have a strong work ethic. The only piece of advice I remember really helping me when I started med school was to never fall behind. You need to work hard right out of the gate and give it your all because falling behind can be disastrous considering the amount of information that is thrown at you.

As for the debate on clinical psychology vs. psychiatry, I'm sure both programs are difficult in their own ways. But clinical psychology programs have limited spots and can be harder to get into. Furthermore, the time spent in school is about the same but psychiatry tends to have bigger rewards in the end, in terms of salary and job security. Also, you never know you could get through medical school and once you're on the wards, change your mind and find a different calling but only medicine can give you that flexibility.

 

[StECT]

Maybe it's the counteract the whole "too long, didn't read" post thing. If it's purple with different fonts, people will read it.

Umm.. no.

 

[StECT]

I have a friend who lost > 20 lbs on a surgery rotation due to 100 hr weeks. Let's use real data here.

Well, anecdotal evidence isn't real data though.

But seriously, everyone needs to take a chill pill around here. This is the Psychiatry forum, not IM!

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

Anecdotal evidence isn't real data though.

It's not anecdotal entirely. Plenty of students have reported working above the 80 hr work week. Which is the point of the statement. Also, case studies are real data. That's a case study, bro.

I understand though. Everyone wants to think what they are doing is the hardest. I've just yet to see anything that is as arduous as surgery. The average residents sleep ~5.5 hrs a night, they are sleep deprived to the point that their motor function is equivalent to being minorly drunk, and many work > 80-90 hrs and have studying to do at home.

The question I posed was to hear the equivalent difficult challenges in the clinical psychology program.

 

[StECT]

I think the post had very clear main points, that wasn't one.

So, are you making the argument that clinical psychology PhD is a more challenging degree than an MD?

I'm not making any arguments! I'm only kidding around. As you were!

I feel like a mother watching unruly kids fight when reading this forum lately though. Yeah, it's an odd feeling.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

I'm not making any arguments! I'm only kidding around. As you were!

I feel like a mother watching unruly kids fight when reading this forum lately though. It's an odd feeling.

Yeah, I'm just bored because I'm on a light rotation.

No one should take anything I say too seriously.

I love all y'all.

And I think the janitor is just as important as the MD - and I treat them like it. So although I made an argument early as to medical school being more challenging (which I honestly do believe) - it's just one man's opinion and I don't even consider my opinions very valuable. Heck, I'll be dead one day and no one will care about my opinions other than family. Good luck all.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Wait, so do they have 24-30 hr shifts or not in clinical psychology.

These lazy young residents and medical students don't work 30 hour shifts anymore. 24 is max, and I think in some specialties here, you max out at 12. Crazy. I feel like there's a pretty substantial difference between the 24 and 30, too. If I can leave in the morning without having to spend hours rounding with a team, I can handle it. Those post call rounding mornings on medicine and peds were so freaking miserable. Thank god I never have to do that crap again.

Anyway, I think the Ph.D. program would be harder for me. With medical school, you focus on one thing, and I could focus on that one thing. I do less well having to attend to multiple different responsibilities. Hence, I work less as a PGY3 and 4 resident and yet am more stressed out. Also, isn't it like crazy hard to get into clinical psychology Ph.D. programs. PsyD programs are easier to get into -- are they easier to complete?

Either way, looking at debt and salaries and whatnot, I think medicine is a better bet unless you can get funded for a Ph.D..

 

[PA-CtoMD]

I worked as a certified physician assistant in psychiatry and am now an MD. As a former PA student, I worked as long and as hard as the med students did. I knew it was necessary. After all, I wasn't going to complete a residency. I was going to hit the ground running once I became certified and found a job. And I did just that.

Med school for me was stressful for 3 years, even with my background as a PA. My fourth year in school was not all that stressful besides the administrative stuff. I made sure not to take stressful clerkships in the intensive care unit, heme/oncology, among others. So, I had no weekends nor long days. Not everyone is a gunner; I wasn't about to be one in my fourth year. So, I did have a nice time in my last year of school.

By the way, clinical psychologists are leaders. And there is also tremendous job security in this field. One can work for the VA, hospitals, hospices, state mental health clinics, private clinics, private practice, academia, etc. Some are professors and have their own private practice/ or work for another doc. There is so much job security that an individual who can't find work is being waaaay to picky. This field is so marketable that that is probably why clinical psych is so popular (besides wanting to help people) in comparison to all of the other fields in psychology. As for pay, some make six figure salaries.

 

[PikminOC]

I worked as a certified physician assistant in psychiatry and am now an MD. As a former PA student, I worked as long and as hard as the med students did. I knew it was necessary. After all, I wasn't going to complete a residency. I was going to hit the ground running once I became certified and found a job. And I did just that.

Med school for me was stressful for 3 years, even with my background as a PA. My fourth year in school was not all that stressful besides the administrative stuff. I made sure not to take stressful clerkships in the intensive care unit, heme/oncology, among others. So, I had no weekends nor long days. Not everyone is a gunner; I wasn't about to be one in my fourth year. So, I did have a nice time in my last year of school.

By the way, clinical psychologists are leaders. And there is also tremendous job security in this field. One can work for the VA, hospitals, hospices, state mental health clinics, private clinics, private practice, academia, etc. Some are professors and have their own private practice/ or work for another doc. There is so much job security that an individual who can't find work is being waaaay to picky. This field is so marketable that that is probably why clinical psych is so popular (besides wanting to help people) in comparison to all of the other fields in psychology. As for pay, some make six figure salaries.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. You did work as long and hard, but you can see the knowledge depth was completely different. Med school was difficult for you even with a PA. Now imagine like most med students you didn't have that PA degree under your belt when you were studying for medical school.

You are a great example for others. I am glad to hear you are now an attending physician!

 

[Bassai Dai]

PA-CtoMD, I also found my fourth year to not be as stressful. What rotations did you do during that year? I loved derm and psychiatry the most. I certainly avoided the hard ones!

 

[PA-CtoMD]

Mistake

 

[PA-CtoMD]

Thanks for your compliments! Although the didactic years were more difficult for med school, I would say that I had the same duties for both programs during the clinical years. But, this may not be true for everyone that did both degrees. I am only referring to myself

I would not say that the MD is the most difficult degree to obtain, especially not in comparison to studying Geophysics/Mathematics etc. Even my undergraduate degree in Geophysics/minor in Mathematics was more conceptually difficult than medicine (PA/MD). I mean medicine is hard, but I had hours upon hours of solving problems that were very intense and rather difficult and long. It was similar to being in engineering. After going through a very hard and competitive physical science degree, I could handle PA school and Med school without being so incredibly stressed out.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I know several excellent academic psychologists. Most joke that they would love to be paid like a psychiatrist if it weren’t for that medical school thing. I know that there are some rigorous PhD programs that match medical school in intensity, but I think there are some that do not. I’m sure most PhD programs are more intellectually challenging that medicine, but medicine is intense in the drinking from a fire hose sort of way. None of our concepts are very difficult to grasp, there are just so many of them and you will never know everything. If medical school was easy to get into and easy to do, there would be a lot more doctors.

 

[EEGNeurofeedback]

I know several excellent academic psychologists. Most joke that they would love to be paid like a psychiatrist if it weren’t for that medical school thing. I know that there are some rigorous PhD programs that match medical school in intensity, but I think there are some that do not. I’m sure most PhD programs are more intellectually challenging that medicine, but medicine is intense in the drinking from a fire hose sort of way. None of our concepts are very difficult to grasp, there are just so many of them and you will never know everything. If medical school was easy to get into and easy to do, there would be a lot more doctors.

There are many many people that are capable of doing medicine but choose not to because their interests lie elsewhere. My biofeedback provider is a neuropsychologist and could have done medicine, but she has no interest in it. She is not in academia and one can tell that she makes big big bucks.

Anyway just like medicine not everyone can earn a Ph.d. My former physics program (I have a masters in it) was hard to get into. First I was in the doctorate program; then I had to drop back to a masters because I was not creative enough to get the ph.d. So, I gave up on research with just a masters. But, it worked out well because my second interest was medicine.

Medicine was difficult, and emotionally very taxing. But, through experience I can say that for different reasons physics wasn't any less intense. They were just different types of programs. But, either way stress is stress.

 

[PikminOC]

Thanks for your compliments! Although the didactic years were more difficult for med school, I would say that I had the same duties for both programs during the clinical years. But, this may not be true for everyone that did both degrees. I am only referring to myself

I would not say that the MD is the most difficult degree to obtain, especially not in comparison to studying Geophysics/Mathematics etc. Even my undergraduate degree in Geophysics/minor in Mathematics was more conceptually difficult than medicine (PA/MD). I mean medicine is hard, but I had hours upon hours of solving problems that were very intense and rather difficult and long. It was similar to being in engineering. After going through a very hard and competitive physical science degree, I could handle PA school and Med school without being so incredibly stressed out.

Correct, your undergraduate degree had very hard classes. I actually think Music and Art were very hard, no beginning and no end to the work!
I was talking about Medical school vs PA school specifically. And you did med school after having PA knowledge which significantly helps you. I went right after undergrad and med school was really hard!

Are you a child psychiatrist now?

 

[PikminOC]

For people who are using the argument about numbers "there are less people accepted into --- school so it must be harder" this is incorrect. The number of spots has nothing to do with the difficulty.

 

[Armadillos]

Physicians/medstudents need to get off our high horses when it comes to medschool, medschool is really nothing special when it comes to academic rigor. Basically if you show up to things when your told to for 4 years your going to get an MD. Additionally it literally requires almost zero creativity or ability to do complex problem solving to get an MD. From an academic rigor standpoint medschool doesn't hold a candle to any PhD program.

However other things about medschool are very challenging IMO, for example MS3 clinical rotations can be incredibly stressful from a psychological standpoint. You show up on some service you know nothing about, dont know who anyone is, WTF your doing and then do public speaking tasks to a crowd who knows more about anything you could possibly say than you do.

Granted PhD or other graduate programs can have their own equivalents to this- giving research talks, dealing with dissertation committees, etc., but I think being a clinical medstudent is a fairly unique type of stress. (Assuming your self aware enough to realize how massively incompetent you actually are)