Medical Students w/ Children...question

Started by JRock310
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An acquaintance/business relation is a plastic surgeon who completed the surgical residency in '93, prior to the 80 hr rule. He's my age, late 30's give or take. Spoke with him today to request his thoughts/advice on this path.

Of all of his thoughts and feedback, he did not try to talk me out of this path; on the contrary, he had respect for an older person going through it. His thoughts were that some things would probably be easier, others would be tougher to take for a person who's been in a professional position for years.

One question that I used to try to figure out when I hired sales/service staff -- is this person an extrovert or an introvert? I often wonder why there are no questions about this prior to med school acceptance; as an extrovert, I gain energy from interacting with people vs. having personal interactions suck energy out of me.
 
As a woman, I know some women complain about their husbands not making enough money. Some times, women also complain that the husband is not spending time w/ family, even though he is making a ton of money.


I am glad I am not a man😱
 
As a woman, I know some women complain about their husbands not making enough money. Some times, women also complain that the husband is not spending time w/ family, even though he is making a ton of money.


I am glad I am not a man😱


That has been the perpetual dilemma of man since time began... It doesn't matter what we do our girlfriends or wives will find something wrong with it and then inevitably find a way to morph that issue into yet just another example of how we don't care about them. :bang:

But on a brighter note, research conducted by the University of Colorado has demonstrated that men enjoy a health benefit from ANY relationship, whether good or bad and women... Well, they only get the benefit if it's good.

So, based on the above, I'm guessing women rarely get that health benefit. :meanie:
 
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Research has shown that:

Married men live longer than single men.

Single women live longer than married women.

Haha, we were studying this in epidemiology -- we found mixed results for women but marked results for men (married men live longer than single men). I'm still of the opinion that it's not the marriage in and of itself that makes people live longer -- it's just that the ones who can cope with the marriage and its changes are probably better able to cope with other changing life issues, too.

Reading melanoleuca's posts is...depressing. I have a significant other with whom I have been planning marriage. We're not planning on having kids until after residency, and we're not planning on getting married until I'm at least nearly done with medical school. We also will likely not live together for at least a few years. Maybe this situation will help? My s.o. takes family very, very seriously. He's also an engineer (some sort of connection between engineers and doctors, maybe?) He's willing to move with me wherever I have to go for medical school and residency (we've talked about this). He also came to my medical school's second look with me yesterday and got 2 hours of lectures about how much work I would be undertaking in the next 4 years.

I just wonder if I'm headed for disaster is all. If I had to choose between my s.o. and my dream of becoming a physician, I would be very tempted to choose my s.o. and throw away all of the money I spent taking prereqs, doing post-graduate work, etc. I don't want to have to choose, though. I want both. 🙁

I hope many of you non-trads posting come back and post with positive stories about how things worked out for you. 🙁
 
Haha, we were studying this in epidemiology -- we found mixed results for women but marked results for men (married men live longer than single men). I'm still of the opinion that it's not the marriage in and of itself that makes people live longer -- it's just that the ones who can cope with the marriage and its changes are probably better able to cope with other changing life issues, too.

Reading melanoleuca's posts is...depressing. I have a significant other with whom I have been planning marriage. We're not planning on having kids until after residency, and we're not planning on getting married until I'm at least nearly done with medical school. We also will likely not live together for at least a few years. Maybe this situation will help? My s.o. takes family very, very seriously. He's also an engineer (some sort of connection between engineers and doctors, maybe?) He's willing to move with me wherever I have to go for medical school and residency (we've talked about this). He also came to my medical school's second look with me yesterday and got 2 hours of lectures about how much work I would be undertaking in the next 4 years.

I just wonder if I'm headed for disaster is all. If I had to choose between my s.o. and my dream of becoming a physician, I would be very tempted to choose my s.o. and throw away all of the money I spent taking prereqs, doing post-graduate work, etc. I don't want to have to choose, though. I want both. 🙁

I hope many of you non-trads posting come back and post with positive stories about how things worked out for you. 🙁

I'm somewhat of a masochist when it comes to work, so if I couldn't be at home much I probably wouldn't mind, but in realizing that I'm no spring chicken anymore and that I might possibly want to start a family one day I was concerned about the lifestyle as well. Not really for a s.o. (because I feel like I'm a pretty straightforward guy and they would know what they were in for up front, but if I were to have children I wouldn't want them to grow up without a father. So, in doing all of my shadowings one of the things I would always discuss is work/family life and I discovered some interesting revelations. Sure some of the docs work grueling hours (once again, without kids I won't mind this), but there are other's that don't.I think it depends on how you establish your practice.

I met some vascular neurosurgeons who, 10 years into their career, still seem to have 100+ hour work weeks, but then I met plenty of ER docs who work 40 to 45 hours a week (obviously that's not what their residency was like), which is a relatively short work week. I think if lifestyle and family are your primary concern you can certainly make that work, but you might have to sacrifice a field your extremely interested in for one your only 'interested' in in order to make the lifestyle work out for you.

Melanoleuca is probably very overworked as you will be during residency, but after your residency you will have options on lifestyle.

Also, have to throw this out there. If you really want a lifestyle, one that would seldom impede on family life and a good income then dentistry seems like it's the way to go.
 
I'm somewhat of a masochist when it comes to work, so if I couldn't be at home much I probably wouldn't mind, but in realizing that I'm no spring chicken anymore and that I might possibly want to start a family one day I was concerned about the lifestyle as well. Not really for a s.o. (because I feel like I'm a pretty straightforward guy and they would know what they were in for up front, but if I were to have children I wouldn't want them to grow up without a father. So, in doing all of my shadowings one of the things I would always discuss is work/family life and I discovered some interesting revelations. Sure some of the docs work grueling hours (once again, without kids I won't mind this), but there are other's that don't.I think it depends on how you establish your practice.

I met some vascular neurosurgeons who, 10 years into their career, still seem to have 100+ hour work weeks, but then I met plenty of ER docs who work 40 to 45 hours a week (obviously that's not what their residency was like), which is a relatively short work week. I think if lifestyle and family are your primary concern you can certainly make that work, but you might have to sacrifice a field your extremely interested in for one your only 'interested' in in order to make the lifestyle work out for you.

Melanoleuca is probably very overworked as you will be during residency, but after your residency you will have options on lifestyle.

Also, have to throw this out there. If you really want a lifestyle, one that would seldom impede on family life and a good income then dentistry seems like it's the way to go.

Yeah, I would definitely be willing to sacrifice my choice of residency for my s.o. Assuming that I do well enough in medical school/on the boards to be able to have a choice at all! 😳

Haha, a little late on the dental school advice, unfortunately 🙁. I'm going to medical school in the fall and I'm probably not turning back (barring an emergency of some sort). In retrospect, I think PA (physician's assistant) school is possibly the best health-care option, though. You might not make the same salary as a dentist/doctor, but I think the time you spend in training + no residency + career flexibility is a winning situation.
 
Yeah, I would definitely be willing to sacrifice my choice of residency for my s.o. Assuming that I do well enough in medical school/on the boards to be able to have a choice at all! 😳

Haha, a little late on the dental school advice, unfortunately 🙁. I'm going to medical school in the fall and I'm probably not turning back (barring an emergency of some sort). In retrospect, I think PA (physician's assistant) school is possibly the best health-care option, though. You might not make the same salary as a dentist/doctor, but I think the time you spend in training + no residency + career flexibility is a winning situation.

I'm sure you'll be fine. There are plenty of people with successful relationships in med school and residency. A good friend of mine is finishing up his residency in radiology and went through medical school and the first few of years of his residency with the same woman (who moved with him all 3 times [school/rotations/residency]), had one 2 year old when he started med school and a newborn at the beginning of his third year. They are still together and happy. It can be done. Although, it's just an anecdote, I know he's not the only one who can make it work.
 
I just wonder if I'm headed for disaster is all. If I had to choose between my s.o. and my dream of becoming a physician, I would be very tempted to choose my s.o. and throw away all of the money I spent taking prereqs, doing post-graduate work, etc. I don't want to have to choose, though. I want both. 🙁

Yeah, I would definitely be willing to sacrifice my choice of residency for my s.o. Assuming that I do well enough in medical school/on the boards to be able to have a choice at all! 😳

So you wouldn't be willing to give up medical school for your SO, but you would be able to give up your choice of residency for your SO? 😕 I can't tell you the number of people I've met in med school who rashly said that as MS1s....they were singing a VERY different tune in MS3!

It's a long road, and a lot of relationships fall apart during it. Not, necessarily, because of medical school/residency, but the added stress just serves to expose the problems that were there under the surface. Some people have had relationships absolutely thrive during medical school...but I do know of a fair number of people who broke up or even got divorced during med school.

Take things one step at a time. Always prepare for the worst. If the specialty you're interested in may cause a problem, talk about it when the time comes. And don't make promises/guarantees early - like the promise that you could give up your specialty choice/top residency program for your SO, or that your SO would be willing to move for you, even for residency or fellowship. One step at a time.

Good luck. :luck:

I'm sure you'll be fine. There are plenty of people with successful relationships in med school and residency. A good friend of mine is finishing up his residency in radiology and went through medical school and the first few of years of his residency with the same woman (who moved with him all 3 times [school/rotations/residency]), had one 2 year old when he started med school and a newborn at the beginning of his third year. They are still together and happy. It can be done.

With a combination of luck and compromise, it can be done. It's easier if you do something like radiology or PM&R, for instance. The number of people who have happy marriages in something like neurosurgery, for instance, is MUCH smaller.

I have a friend who broke up with a girl he was very much in love with because she wanted to do neurosurgery and he was doing another, less intense, specialty. She refused to change her mind for him, and he really wants to have a family, kids, pets, white picket fence, etc. - and that life is almost unattainable, especially when the female partner is a neurosurgeon. It doesn't always work out for everyone. 🙁

Doesn't mean that you're doomed to a failed relationship if you're in medicine - but you need to be aware of the pitfalls, and how to get over them successfully.
 
for all of you who are actually in medical school and have children...

have you found that you have had enough time to be involved with your family AND accomplish what you need to in med school?

i am applying this summer and would be in the class of 2014. ive posted on here before (but just in case you aren't familiar w/ me), i have a 4.5 year old daughter. i am in a single parent program at my school, and my daughter and i came here when she was only 8 months old. i have been through college 100% with her as a single parent and know how hard it can be (but also how rewarding). i have managed to keep a balance between my family life and my school life, but of course there are times when it is harder to do so. i have the support of my family, and i am lucky that they have been there for me throughout everything. i do have a boyfriend i met here my freshman year (he graduated in '07), we will have been together 3 years this summer and will probably be engaged later this year. he will be moving w/ us wherever i get to school, so i will have his love and support through this, too. i guess my question is...im nervous that i will not have time to "be there" for my daughter and for him. it is really important to me to able to be actively involved in her life, and i just want to know if it is really possible to be able to do this while in medical school (or is it as ridiculously demanding as everyone says, and you wont have time for anyone else)...any insight at all would be extremely helpful. im not asking if it is going to be difficult (i know it will be), im just asking if it can be and has been done.

thank you! 😳

Your anxiety is appropriate. Medical school can be done as a parent, but there are clearly trade-offs with respect to spending time with your child. There would be times when you would not be in the life of your family beyond sleeping in the same home. There will be other times, perhaps, when you will be with your family perhaps a bit more than in a typical 8-5 job. How much you study and how flexible your school is will certainly play a role in what your options are. As people have mentioned above, you give up a certain amount (possibly quite a bit, depending on your perspective) of control over your life when you embark on becoming a physician. This gets worse during residency, from what I have heard. Based on your story, I would hold off.
 
So you wouldn't be willing to give up medical school for your SO, but you would be able to give up your choice of residency for your SO? 😕 I can't tell you the number of people I've met in med school who rashly said that as MS1s....they were singing a VERY different tune in MS3!

No, I said I would be willing to give up medical school for my SO if I saw no way of making it work.

Would I give up medical school altogether as an M3? THAT's a totally different question. Right now I have invested a lot of money to get as far as I have -- but nothing LIKE what I will be investing in years to come. So no, as an M3 I'd just suck it up and finish. Yes I would try to accommodate his needs about residency if at all possible -- he understands the residency match process.

That's all. Sorry to derail the thread about kids. But they're definitely on the horizon (well, 8 years of horizons later).
 
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Back to the OP's question for a minute guys 😉

The biggest advice I have (and I will only be an M1 this fall, so take it with a grain of salt) is organization is key.

My three have a chart for morning and one for bedtime with cute pictures they put up when they accomplish tasks (make bed, eat breakfast, put on PJs, read book with Mom/Dad, etc.) It took me about an hour to pull the pictures together, laminate it, and cut out all the pictures and stick the velcro on, but it has saved me lots more time on the flip side.

Routine and structure are important for kids, and developing/utilizing a support network to assist in that area will be vital to your children's sense of family down the road.

I would suggest mommd.com for ideas- it's great to find topics that are pertinent to your situation and ask questions related to kids.

Also- look into where you will be attending school and figure out a support network asap, especially if you do not have family in the area. If you are religious, reaching out in this area often lends itself to a strong supportive network. Also family resource centers and United Ways are another good idea.

Good luck :luck:
 
Melanoleuca is probably very overworked as you will be during residency, but after your residency you will have options on lifestyle.

No. You all don't get it. You can't just put your family on pause for eight years and justify it by promising to have a better schedule when you are done with residency. Life will move on around you and you will never get the time back. Sometimes the loneliness and resentment built up by your spouse over the course of a couple years of mostly eighty hour weeks cannot be undone by promises of future quality time.

It is the cavalier attitude that many of you have towards what will probably be eight very grueling years that I find interesting. I know because I felt the same way ten years ago when I applied to medical school. Unfortunately, there was no good place to go for information back then. I assure you that if SDN had been around like it is now where you have people giving easily accessible advice who have gone through the entire process I would have laughed and thrown my application in the trash.
 
Did you consider quitting? It sounds like the **** didn't hit the fan for you until residency. What kept you in? Could you have not handled the debt load outside of medicine? Is this all about your family (i.e., if you were single with no kids, would you still have done it or would it still have been to the trash can)?

Did you ever consider not practicing? I have heard that engineers with MDs can get lucrative job offers in industry given that there are not many of them. As an engineer, I am curious about this possibility if, during my third year, decide I don't want to go through a residency.

My impression is that you don't really get a feel for what it's going to be like until third year, and by that time you're pretty much committed.

You can't quit. By the time you get through third year and realize that most of medicine blows you are in too deep and have too much invested to just pull out and I'm not just talking money either. You say, "Well, maybe I'll find something I like so I'll stick it out another year."

By the time you are an intern you are thoroughly unqualified for anything else and you may as well go forward as back.

There are no jobs for engineer/medical doctors that pay anywhere close to the mid-300,000s I will be making in July. Sure, if I had no debt and no family to support I might take a job that paid $100,000 just to never have to see another patient again but this is not my situation.

It is all about family. Isn't that the point of this thread? If I had gone to medical young and single it would have been, along with residency, a lark.
 
Panda - after thought on my initial posts - your posts here do provide valuable info people should take into consideration.

HOWEVER - in the same manner that I previously couldn't just smile and say everything would be ok for everyone -you can't frown and say that every single person here with children or planning a family during med school/residency should do what you wish you had done and thrown their application away.

Not every single person with a family is going to end up where you will. Some probably will and some probably won't, but for you to infer that having this info on SDN should make us ALSO want to throw our applications/acceptances away like you wish you had - that's just ridiculous.

Not everyone is going to regret their decision, and there WILL be some here who manage the grueling specialty schedules well with their families during residency and school. Everyone's situation is different, which is why each person has to take the info presented and decide for themselves.

We can't predict our own futures. Maybe we will have wish we hadn't gone this career route in eight years, but maybe we will still be glad we did with a smiling spouse beside us. You can't tell anyone definitively that either outcome will happen just because one happened to you.

Despite this, I do recommend people read Panda's blog. It's a great blog with an important perspective.
 
Panda - after thought on my initial posts - your posts here do provide valuable info people should take into consideration.

HOWEVER - in the same manner that I previously couldn't just smile and say everything would be ok for everyone -you can't frown and say that every single person here with children or planning a family during med school/residency should do what you wish you had done and thrown their application away.

Not every single person with a family is going to end up where you will. Some probably will and some probably won't, but for you to infer that having this info on SDN should make us ALSO want to throw our applications/acceptances away like you wish you had - that's just ridiculous.

Not everyone is going to regret their decision, and there WILL be some here who manage the grueling specialty schedules well with their families during residency and school. Everyone's situation is different, which is why each person has to take the info presented and decide for themselves.

We can't predict our own futures. Maybe we will have wish we hadn't gone this career route in eight years, but maybe we will still be glad we did with a smiling spouse beside us. You can't tell anyone definitively that either outcome will happen just because one happened to you.

Despite this, I do recommend people read Panda's blog. It's a great blog with an important perspective.


I don't recall using the words "ever" or "all." But "most" and "generally" are good words and you ignore them at your peril.
 
Panda/melanoleuca, other than word of mouth, how does one go about finding out which residencies are going to be less hellish on you and your partner? I realize probably no residency will be a walk in the park and I take your words seriously.
 
I will wait for the panda bear to reply. But I keep hearing Derm and Rad are such residencies but they are harder to get into. Psych is another but it doesn't pay as well as Derm and Rad.
 
I'm a graduating medical student, wife and the mother of a one year old boy.

In general, I like panda's posts. I totally agree that medicine isn't neeeaaaarrrrrly as cool as it seemed like it would be. When I was pre-med, I totally thought medicine was my passion and my calling. Now, it's more like a job that I feel so-so about; it has its pluses and minuses. Knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't have gone to medicine school, but hey, I'm graduating, so I might as well do residency.

Having said that, I think panda is being overly pessimistic, at least for the childless. Medical training, in most specialties, isn't eight bad years. For one thing, medical school is pretty much cake, relationship-wise. I've been married throughout medical school, and it's been a snap. The last four or five years have been great for our marriage. We've had tons of time together and, with the exception of a couple of months during third year, I don't think my husband has felt neglected. (And yes, I have asked him. Repeatedly.) Besides, he's busy with his own stuff and he's a very low maintenance guy. I guess residency may break us -- anything's possible -- but I find it difficult to imagine that one tough year is really going to do us in. I matched in internal medicine, so I'm anticipating a grueling intern year, then a somewhat better schedule after that. I do plan to do a fellowship, so there will be one more tough year there, followed by a couple of chill research years. I may try to add an additional year to my residency to allow for more family time, so I think, in terms of total suckage, it's going to add up to two bad years for us: internship and first year of fellowship. Panda, you're right that I haven't lived it yet, but I feel reasonably optimistic about it.

As a (sexist) aside, I think it may be somewhat easier to be the medical student/resident wife with a non-medical husband, rather than the other way around. When I anxiously ask my husband, "Do you feel neglected? Do you hate me? Do you wish I wasn't in medical school?" ... he pretty much just laughs.

My one piece of advice to those of you with SOs and families: don't allow yourself to become trapped, financially or otherwise. I'm starting residency and I honestly think it's going to be fine for our family (great daycare, help from family, husband's career is humming happily along and is incredibly flexible), but if it isn't, I WILL QUIT. Just like that. I can't tell you how much peace of mind it gives me to know that I can just walk away from this nonsense. So to those of you who are concerned about how medical training will affect your loved ones, make sure you always have an escape plan.
 
I'm starting residency and I honestly think it's going to be fine for our family (great daycare, help from family, husband's career is humming happily along and is incredibly flexible), but if it isn't, I WILL QUIT. Just like that. I can't tell you how much peace of mind it gives me to know that I can just walk away from this nonsense. So to those of you who are concerned about how medical training will affect your loved ones, make sure you always have an escape plan.

Oh no you won't. You are going to keep slogging through it like the rest of us for various rational and irrational reasons. I know and have known about 300 residents (because everybody knows me at both hospitals where I work) and not one of them has ever quit. Some have been fired or switched specialties but quit? Not one.

You'll fantasize about it, of course, perhaps while doing a string of particularly difficult call nights like the dreaded "Friday Sunday Meat Grinder" when you will be ill, dehydrated, bone tired, with nothing but endless admissions waiting for you in the Emergency Department and the little voice will say, "Man, I wish I had never done this and it would be so great to just say '**** it!' and go home to sleep."

But you'll suck it up. We always do. And when your attending asks you if you're learning anything or how you like it you'll put a big ****-eating grin on your face and lie through your teeth because that's how we roll.
 
There are all kinds of men in the world but generally, men are not happy who are "stay at home parents" just like most women do not respect this kind of man. It's biological, stereotypical or not. Besides, a man who is a stay-at-home dad is likely to be professionally and socially isolated from other men except for other stay-at-home dads, who, as they are the kind who want to be stay-at-home dads may not be the kind your stay-at-home dad wants to hang out with.

Ignore the real differences between men and women at your peril.

Here are some real differences: I stayed home to handle life in general when my husband worked over 80 hours a week, NEVER at home. Seriously, in six months, he was home 4 days. He arrived at 11:00pm, and left before 10pm the next day, when he was out of state or out of country again. When I worked out to sea (yes, I am a woman, and yes, I worked on the N. Atlantic Fishing Fleet as a researcher) he changed jobs to work at home full time. Medicine isn't the only field that demands family sacrafices; I was out to sea for a solid month at a time, home for a week, out to sea for 4-5 weeks, repeat. When I was home, I slept and vomitted from land sickness. Sometimes I would only be allowed 2 days off. On the boats, we slept the 8 hours out, then went to 20:4 shifts....20 hours awake doing physically demanding work in a dangerous environment followed by 4 hours of sleep. I do not know if residency demands more or less time commitment or energy, but I do know rarely are you dealing with salt water freezing on your clothing and all the surfaces surrounding you. If this is your passion and you have the ability to set up a solid support team, you can pursue it and do so effectively. Everyone will sacrafice, but sacrafice isn't the most terrible thing. Sometimes it makes people appreciate what they have all the more. I am grateful more than ever to have a husband who likes to brag to the other workaholics in his current company (most investment bankers, previously it was global consulting for a 3 letter firm) that his wife could outsurvive them in horrendous conditions and has the scars to prove it. Oh, and he does work in a trophy wife culture, and yet his co-worked admire his rough and tumble wife....and respect his latest plan to work from home while I enter school. Not med, but I am still a non trad and have worked jobsthat have taken me far, far from home, and are immensely dangerous.

We can chose to buy into stereotypes and continue to perpetuate them, or we can chose to pursue our own paths and define new standards for ourselves and our families. People are isolated because they chose not to pursue and develop community, male or female. There are plenty of stay at home mothers who also feel isolated and are not happy.

Your biological assumptions are based on euro-american culture...not all societies are patriarchial or embrace the belief in woman as primary caregivers. Unfortunatly, most of these populations have been marginalized. Fortunatly, I happen to come from a matriarchial culture and found a husband who embraced my need to be a competent and skilled professional, just as he is. We take turns taking the hits in our relationship rather than expecting that a Y chromosome excepts him from taking hits to his career or entitles him to less responsabilities.

To the OP, my best friend in HS had her child while in school. Here is her blog:
http://ayradyss.livejournal.com/
She is an amazing woman who I admire far more than she realizes. I have no doubts what so ever that her child received ample love, affection, and attention, if not always in quantity, at least in quality.

Also, having grown up with both parents working, often taking turn outs of town for months at a time (when your poor, your family works where it can) I can honestly say that I learned valuable lessons about independence, hard work, dedication, ambition, pursuit of dreams, and generosity to others. Yes, my poor father must have been socially and professionally isolated dragging his toddler daughter to fire fighting meetings and the occasional fire. He was a mechanic on call and a firefighter. His mates found it fascinating that a child could identify various woods and give burn rates better than most rookies, because I grew up learning it. Fire fighters are tough folk, and he was well admired and respected for being an excellent father and husband as well as a man to be counted on under fire.
 
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If this was Facebook, and we had a "like" button - I would select it for your post, sumstorm. 🙂
 
I've been following this thread w/o posting, until now, but felt like I had to chime in. Panda, you always have a wise, realistic view on things, I'm a big fan of your blog (glad you're at it again, btw), and I'm really, truly, sorry that things are sucky for you on the homefront now.

However (here comes some "couching"), I'm going to throw a little bit of my own perspective out there. The suck-it-up-and-complete-the-mission-despite-the-personal-cost mentality served you well in the Corps and was most likely a big factor in being able to complete your education and training, despite the misery it caused to yourself and your family. That hard-core mentality isn't so great when it comes to nurturing relationships, unfortunately.

I agree with yadayadadude that it is probably easier for a woman med student/resident/physician simply because women, in general, tend to have coping strategies that deal with stress before it gets to a critical level. You, on the other hand, have been trained to drive on and finish it even if it means you have to push your guts back into your abdominal cavity and keep humping.

My husband and I are both Gulf War vets, and whether or not I am lucky to be pulled off the waitlist this cycle, my own marriage is approaching its expiration date. I'll stick it out for as long as I can for the sake of the kids, and because I do love the man, but I am realistic. We probably won't make it through med school. And even if I never get in, I give it 2 years, tops. He refuses to acknowledge and deal with his PTSD, while I found it much easier to shake off that "suck it up, soldier" mentality and face my own personal demons.

Not that I'm suggesting that you have PTSD or that you didn't deal w/your own marriage problems. It's just that the whole "women are from Venus, men are from Mars" BS can sometimes be made worse when one person has that "just do it" disposition. And when communication breaks down, it's all over except for the formalities. And it's this more than anything else that took the forever out of my own marriage. I guess what I'm trying to say is, perhaps the whole nightmare you just finished was just an extremely torturous catalyst for something that already had an expiration date. I don't know, I'm just sayin'.

I just happen to think it is more helpful to those of us who are about to embark on this trek through hell to warn us by your example, give examples of pitfalls to look out for, and then perhaps suggest some proactive soul searching to come up w/ some strategies beforehand to deal with them as they arise. Come on, man, unless you had a Scrooge moment and had the Ghost of Medicine Future show you where you'd be now, you would have probably STILL have gone through with it, even if you did have your very own Uncle Panda tell you that it would be a high-pressure suck and you should quit before you start.

I really do wish you and your family the best, Dr. Panda, sir, and I hope that when the smoke clears your family remains on loving terms, however the configuration ends up.
 
OP, like many other posters have said, it is your ability to cope with stress, your relationship with your significant other and your support system that will determine the success of your personal relationships, including children. One way to do this is to understand that you will not be able to do everything every single time. It is just like any other hard-working job with zero flexibility, you win some you lose some. You might be able to go to your daughter's final piano recital, but you might not be able to go to every practice session. Yes, you will have to make sacrifices, but you also have the ability to determine what you want to sacrifice. For example, I sacrificed a big name school for my state school to make it easy on my family. But, that was a collective decision, without any resentment. Resentment builds up quickly, especially under stress and duress, resolve issues before they balloon. It is all about attitude and communication.
You do not have to go it alone. Learn to ask for help, if you don't already do so. Set aside some time (you determine how much) every day for your daughter and I'm sure you can make it. Sure, clinical years and residency are going to be very hard and rough, but not impossible. Follow your dream, but with the full understanding for all those involved that the road ahead is a long and arduous one.

All the very best in your endeavors!

Disclaimer: I'm not yet in medical school, so obviously I have not done a residency, but I have enough life experiences and to paraphrase Scottish Chap, medicine is not the only profession with grueling hours and stress on families.
 
As a (sexist) aside, I think it may be somewhat easier to be the medical student/resident wife with a non-medical husband, rather than the other way around. When I anxiously ask my husband, "Do you feel neglected? Do you hate me? Do you wish I wasn't in medical school?" ... he pretty much just laughs.

Yeah, my I feel like my SO is gonna be like that. He's very independent and I think he looks at my presence in his life like a "nice bonus" and not someone he relies on.

I just happen to think it is more helpful to those of us who are about to embark on this trek through hell to warn us by your example, give examples of pitfalls to look out for, and then perhaps suggest some proactive soul searching to come up w/ some strategies beforehand to deal with them as they arise. Come on, man, unless you had a Scrooge moment and had the Ghost of Medicine Future show you where you'd be now, you would have probably STILL have gone through with it, even if you did have your very own Uncle Panda tell you that it would be a high-pressure suck and you should quit before you start.

I really do wish you and your family the best, Dr. Panda, sir, and I hope that when the smoke clears your family remains on loving terms, however the configuration ends up.

Yeah, definitely all of that and especially the bolded.

Cause we're all still going to go into medicine (or at least most of us plan on it, anyway). So that's why I was asking about how to make the best of a bad situation...
 
I will wait for the panda bear to reply. But I keep hearing Derm and Rad are such residencies but they are harder to get into. Psych is another but it doesn't pay as well as Derm and Rad.

Yeah I guess there's "good" in terms of pay and "good" in terms of hours and "good" in terms of flexibility of location...but maybe there aren't too many residencies will all three?

Thanks for your answer though 🙂
 
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Oh no you won't...

I guess there's no way to *prove* I'll quit if residency isn't worth it, but I am unusually well-situated to quit. For one, my debt is low. For two, my husband's income is high. For three, I'm a quitter. Long history of it. For four, I have a face-saving excuse to quit (a small child). For five through a million, I'm totally disenchanted with medicine. This mess isn't a calling or a passion. It's a job. If it sucks too hard, I'm out of here.

I don't plan to quit, obviously. But I truly do think I'll chuck it should it become clear to me that the sacrifices outweigh the gain. We'll see.

Good luck, everyone. And keep those escape plans handy.
 
I guess there's no way to *prove* I'll quit if residency isn't worth it, but I am unusually well-situated to quit. For one, my debt is low. For two, my husband's income is high. For three, I'm a quitter. Long history of it. For four, I have a face-saving excuse to quit (a small child). For five through a million, I'm totally disenchanted with medicine. This mess isn't a calling or a passion. It's a job. If it sucks too hard, I'm out of here.

I don't plan to quit, obviously. But I truly do think I'll chuck it should it become clear to me that the sacrifices outweigh the gain. We'll see.

Good luck, everyone. And keep those escape plans handy.

Okay. I stand corrected. This is one of the most honest, authentic things I have ever read on SDN. My fantasy, however, was to finish residency, get board certified, and then quit.
 
OP, like many other posters have said, it is your ability to cope with stress, your relationship with your significant other and your support system that will determine the success of your personal relationships, including children. One way to do this is to understand that you will not be able to do everything every single time. It is just like any other hard-working job with zero flexibility, you win some you lose some. You might be able to go to your daughter's final piano recital, but you might not be able to go to every practice session. Yes, you will have to make sacrifices, but you also have the ability to determine what you want to sacrifice. For example, I sacrificed a big name school for my state school to make it easy on my family. But, that was a collective decision, without any resentment. Resentment builds up quickly, especially under stress and duress, resolve issues before they balloon. It is all about attitude and communication.
You do not have to go it alone. Learn to ask for help, if you don't already do so. Set aside some time (you determine how much) every day for your daughter and I'm sure you can make it. Sure, clinical years and residency are going to be very hard and rough, but not impossible. Follow your dream, but with the full understanding for all those involved that the road ahead is a long and arduous one.

All the very best in your endeavors!

Disclaimer: I'm not yet in medical school, so obviously I have not done a residency, but I have enough life experiences and to paraphrase Scottish Chap, medicine is not the only profession with grueling hours and stress on families.

Compared to residency, there is no such thing as a "zero flexibility job." In fact, in residency not only is your schedule almost completely inflexible but deviating from it will screw over one of your fellow residents who is on "back-up" call. You can't even call in sick as a resident, and I have been on call where I required two liters of IV fluid and Zofran to keep going.
 
We can chose to buy into stereotypes and continue to perpetuate them, or we can chose to pursue our own paths and define new standards for ourselves and our families. People are isolated because they chose not to pursue and develop community, male or female. There are plenty of stay at home mothers who also feel isolated and are not happy...

With respect, this is gobbledygook. Your spouse will be isolated from you because medicine will demand your complete attention, most of your time, and most of your energy. As for stereotypes, most men will chaff in the role of "stay-at-home" dad. It's biological. We are not built to take care of the children while the woman hunt the mammoth. So sorry.
 
Compared to residency, there is no such thing as a "zero flexibility job." In fact, in residency not only is your schedule almost completely inflexible but deviating from it will screw over one of your fellow residents who is on "back-up" call. You can't even call in sick as a resident, and I have been on call where I required two liters of IV fluid and Zofran to keep going.


Panda, I don't know much about you except from the few snippets that I have got from ocassionally reading your blog (a lot of which I don't agree with) and your overly pessimistic posts on SDN. However, if you think there are no zero flexibility jobs outside of residency, you are sorely and thoroughly mistaken. I am not discounting your view point and/or your experiences, but to imply that only you know what it is like and that only residency has it bad is stretching it very very far.

I can quote my experiences till the cows come home and your residency (ill) experiences will pale in comparison. Myself and my entire family and a lot of people that I know, have survived and thrived in much worse conditions than what you describe of residency and we are still together as families.

Medical school, like anything else, is all about choices and priorities and knowing your limitations. Everybody always has the option to quit if they think it is that bad. In your case, you chose not to, you chose your career over your spouse. My spouse and I know that we will quit if it means we are not going to be together as a family because of medical school. We have done it before, we will do it again, if necessary. However, if medical school is just an excuse and there are other underlying reasons, then we might each continue on our own path.

Again, let me reiterate, I'm not saying or suggesting residency is easy on anybody, least of all on those with families, but weathering it successfully is very individual dependent and just like you, I'm talking based on my life experiences and my role models and I think the OP, based on what she has written about herself, can do it.
 
...My spouse and I know that we will quit if it means we are not going to be together as a family because of medical school. We have done it before, we will do it again, if necessary....

Just as an aside, do not put this in your personal statement or breathe a word of it at your interviews.

Interviewer: So, do you think you can handle medical training?


Travelbug73:
If I don't like it, I'll quit. I've quit before and I'll quit again.


Let me get this straight. You were rejected 20 years ago. You have struggled mightily to get accepted to medical school this year after clearing significant hurdles that would have blocked the dreams of anybody with less drive. This career is going to be your passion.

But you'll quit if your family life suffers? Oh Good Lord.
 
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Panda, I don't know much about you except from the few snippets that I have got from ocassionally reading your blog (a lot of which I don't agree with) and your overly pessimistic posts on SDN. However, if you think there are no zero flexibility jobs outside of residency, you are sorely and thoroughly mistaken. I am not discounting your view point and/or your experiences, but to imply that only you know what it is like and that only residency has it bad is stretching it very very far.

I can quote my experiences till the cows come home and your residency (ill) experiences will pale in comparison. Myself and my entire family and a lot of people that I know, have survived and thrived in much worse conditions than what you describe of residency and we are still together as families.

Medical school, like anything else, is all about choices and priorities and knowing your limitations. Everybody always has the option to quit if they think it is that bad. In your case, you chose not to, you chose your career over your spouse. My spouse and I know that we will quit if it means we are not going to be together as a family because of medical school. We have done it before, we will do it again, if necessary. However, if medical school is just an excuse and there are other underlying reasons, then we might each continue on our own path.

Again, let me reiterate, I'm not saying or suggesting residency is easy on anybody, least of all on those with families, but weathering it successfully is very individual dependent and just like you, I'm talking based on my life experiences and my role models and I think the OP, based on what she has written about herself, can do it.


Oh man. I haven't even told you the worst part about residency training and its effect on your spouse.
 
It's always a tough balancing act and it really helps if you have supportive family members nearby. There are regions of this country where this is more prevalent (e.g., the south) and other regions where it's less common (e.g., the northeast). It's also good to have peer support.
 
Oh no you won't. You are going to keep slogging through it like the rest of us for various rational and irrational reasons. I know and have known about 300 residents (because everybody knows me at both hospitals where I work) and not one of them has ever quit. Some have been fired or switched specialties but quit? Not one.

You'll fantasize about it, of course, perhaps while doing a string of particularly difficult call nights like the dreaded "Friday Sunday Meat Grinder" when you will be ill, dehydrated, bone tired, with nothing but endless admissions waiting for you in the Emergency Department and the little voice will say, "Man, I wish I had never done this and it would be so great to just say '**** it!' and go home to sleep."

But you'll suck it up. We always do. And when your attending asks you if you're learning anything or how you like it you'll put a big ****-eating grin on your face and lie through your teeth because that's how we roll.

I am sorry you have found your career path so unfulfilling, but there is no need to attack others who may have had a different experience. Just because things worked out a particular way in your case, does not mean that is the absolute.

At the end of the day, if someone is truly unhappy, they can do three things:

1. get counseling and attempt to get back to feeling good about their choice
2. get out and do something else with your talents
3. get rid of the negativity, pull yourself together, and move forward in your current career
 
Hello everyone, this is my first post though I have frequented these forums for over a year now. I just had to chime in on this topic. I am a pre-med student right now and I just finished up 5 years active duty Army. During those 5 years I have been away from my wife and daughter for 3 of them, not sitting safely on some FOB over there but rather as an Infantryman out doing the fighting. I saw my daughter for 3 months out of her first 16. This last deployment I had a period of 5 months when I had exactly one day off and most of the rest of the 15 months weren't much different, and this in 120F heat with 60+ pounds of gear. Daily IVs were a way of life hah. The deployment before that in Afghanistan, I had several periods of one month or more when I could only talk to my wife on the phone for a precious 10 minutes or less. Email was equally inaccessible over there. I won't even try to articulate how exceedingly difficult our "work conditions" were. I'm not complaining for the simple fact that I chose it, I volunteered for it. However I think this justifies me in commenting here on how time demanding careers can put a strain on a relationship. As Scottish Chap and some others have so wisely pointed out, there are many very difficult jobs in addition to that of medicine. Most of which have the luxury of allowing you to at least communicate consistently with your wife and of not having to worry about getting shot or blown up 🙂.

Certainly I have seen a great many other soldiers marriages disintegrate due to the long months away and the sometimes very limited communication back home. It can be very difficult, but I have also seen many soldier's relationships make it. My wife and I have a wonderful marriage, and it has only gotten stronger. An old Special Forces soldier once told me that the military, and I dare extend this to any difficult job, is like a magnifying glass on your marriage. If you have a good marriage it will generally get better, if you have a poor marriage it will generally get worse. Some people don't truly know what kind of a marriage they have until that magnifying glass of trial and tribulation comes out.

I attribute the continued happiness of my marriage through very trying times, to my wife, and that is my humble piece of advice here. That so much depends on the spouse. Of course your own efforts are essential as any relationship requires equal efforts from both elements but your wife/husband must be a VERY understanding and very patient person. They must go into it knowing that they are every bit as much a part of it as you are, and be as fully aware of what it entails. That is when I saw marriages fail, when there wasn't understanding, agreement, or ability to deal with and adjust to the way of life. I am good friends with a doctor I have known for 3 years now that went through medical school and his residency with 3 children. They are a great family and have a very stable relationship. I have talked to him a lot about his experience and he said it was very hard, but as in my case with continued combat deployments, he attributed most of it to his wife and her understanding and support.

Some make it, some don't, same as any marriage. I believe it is entirely up to the husband and wife, no matter the circumstances.

Sheesh, that's enough writing from me for another year!
 
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Good luck in your pursuit of medical school! Thanks for your post. Reminded me that I still have a lot to be grateful for.
 
Spindrift, thanks for the wise words. Good luck with everything, and Happy Easter, everyone!
 
Spindrift- wonderful post! This is something we have been discussing more and more, especially now that we have an official lease signed, for sale sign out front, and financial aid packages have been awarded.

From my perspective, it feels as though everything has fallen into place- got into 1st choice school, housing & daycare facility for the kids. I am making an effort to remind myself everyday that while my DH is supportive, this is what I desired, and he should know how much I appreciate it and everything he is doing.

128 days to go until we begin this challenge, as we do all others- together, one step at a time.
 
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...
Some make it, some don't, same as any marriage. I believe it is entirely up to the husband and wife, no matter the circumstances.

...

Nice post, Spindrift. At the same time, I'm not sure your background is similar to the OP's. My guess is that you may be better prepared, tested, and motivated than the OP. I agree with your point that some marriages have the high commitment and skills to make things work out (and some don't). However, it's probably a little overconfident to think that "... it's entirely up to the husband and wife, no matter what the circumstances." Every marriage has a unique breaking point, and, if pushed too far ... it's over. The idea is to stay away from that breaking point by putting effort into the marriage, protecting it, and paying attention to warning signs of trouble. I agree with some of the posts above that if it came down to my marriage or medicine, I would quit medicine in a heartbeat. Medicine is rewarding and enjoyable thus far; however, my marriage is worth infinitely more to me than anything I have put into medicine (or ever will). I hope it wouldn't come down to a medicine vs. marriage ultimatum; even so, it is important to have a sense of priority and to recognize that overcommitment leads to misery. Also, although they are the minor exception, I personally know of at least five people who have quit medicine at various stages, from medical school 1st year through physicians who practiced over 10 years and called it quits. Medical training is an intense/long commitment and most people figure out a way to make it work out for them, even if they complain endlessly about their training and work.
 
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OncoCap, I couldn't agree more.

Every marriage has a unique breaking point, and, if pushed too far ... it's over. The idea is to stay away from that breaking point by putting effort into the marriage, protecting it, and paying attention to warning signs of trouble.
Perhaps I didn't word it properly but that is precisely what I mean when I say that it is really up to the couple. You said it much better than me 👍. It is good to hear from you, a current medical student, that your marriage is first place in your life. I have been told too many times that, "if you want to make it, medicine must be first and everything else last," and I just don't buy that. My wife and I both see this undertaking as a joint endeavor.

Crelal, good luck to you!

BTW, thanks everyone for all of the highly useful and interesting advice and information in these forums. There is a lot of good, realistic advice here. Both the positive and negative views/opinions are of equal worth to me, and somewhere in between all of those overly optimistic and overly pessimistic posts exists the sweet spot of reality 😀.
 
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I am new to this forum but found this discussion really interesting... judging from my conversations with residents, residencies vary a lot in stress level depending on where and what field. And obviously marriages vary a lot too in what they can take.

My own experience, FWIW: I have almost made it through my first year of med school, with three young kids. It is definitely possible to do well, and be present in your family life, for the first year. I have a LOT of support from my husband and my family. My kids are proud of me. The pass-fail system at my school has been really great for me, as has the free therapy. 😉
 
well. this thread has certainly turned interesting. :laugh:

i want to thank everyone for their advice and insight. i have read every post and it is MUCH appreciated.

for the record...i am definitely going to apply this year, even though i am a little apprehensive about balancing medical school w/ family life. if i dont go through this and see firsthand what it is like, i will always wonder. if it turns out to be a horrible experience and there is NO way i can balance a family life w/ medicine...then i, too, would quit. my daughter comes first, obviously. HOWEVER...i won't really know unless i give it a shot. 😉 i have a VERRRYYYY strong support system (how could i have made it this far otherwise?) and have come SO far already. i have accomplished quite a bit for a 22 year old w/ a 4.5 year old child...if you don't believe me, check out my MDApps.

for now, im just concentrating on getting in...but i love this Nontrad forum. you guys are all (for the most part :laugh:) very supportive of one another. i love all of your opinions and points. they have really given me a lot of encouragement and a lot to think about.

good luck to everyone!:luck::luck::luck:
 
Whoa. I said "likely" won't survive, not "Absolutely won't survive," which is statistically a true statement. And, as I have close to 10,000 posts on SDN (in a different user name related to my current one), and have been on SDN from my first day of medical school and now have 89 days left of residency in addition to being the ultimate non-traditional type, I am more than qualified to give any advice at all and you probably should at least consider it seriously even if you reject it.

I don't give a crap about www.mommd.com. I know several female residents with stay-at-home husbands who have had severe marital problems secondary to most men not really wanting to be stay-at-home husbands.

I suppose I'm lucky then! My husband's ultimate goal is to be a work-at-home dad.