Mediocre undergrad/stellar grad

[choppo23]

Hi, I'm 28yo and am hoping to complete my PhD in Molecular Genetics by the end of 2007. I am planning on taking MCATs this spring to apply for the Fall 2008 semester. I have some questions on my grades that I would really appreciate feedback on and I've listed facts about my record (good or bad) and am not trying to brag about the few things I've done right.

Vassar College (undergrad)-2.7 GPA and with their scale that meant a B- average. If you got an 83 in every course you would have a 2.7. Will the med school know about their point system? I also had a C- and a D+ in Orgo!

I took a semester of classes and a few summer classes (including biology) at Rutgers which transferred to Vassar as Passes. My GPA there was 3.7.

I did a year of grad study in Cell and Molecular Biology at U. of Vermont and had a 3.6 GPA including Physical Chemistry, Biochemistry, and Cell Biology.

I am currently at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the PhD program which is pass/fail and have all passes and 2 honors. To get honors, I was top 3 out of 40+ students in each class and then tutored one of the classes for 2 years. I was also selected for an NIH training grant here and will have fantastic letters of recommendation.

Do you guys think Med Schools will look past my mediocre undergrad record and value my more recent grad studies when choosing whether to admit me?

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[polly-o]

grades from your phd won't matter much at all. the majority of people who are in phd programs have stellar gpas. if the phd helps you out, it will come from things that set you apart like... some great publications in high impact journals, coming from a prestigious program or lab etc.. having a research background isn't going to help the med schools out much-unless they think you are so kick a** that you would eventually have a great independent research program that could do something translational combined with your MD. however... as i am sure that you are well aware, of the people getting biomed degrees a very, very small percentage actually make it through a good postdoc, publishing enough to get an independent position. the odds of getting a tenure track faculty position at a top 20 university are way lower than the odds of getting into med school. unless you have the credentials to make med schools think that you are way out in front of the research crowd, your phd isn't going to be that much of an asset.

your 2.6 is a hurdle, but realize that your 3.7 from at rutgers will be included in your undergrad gpa that is calculated.

 

[awk]

You will need to list all your courses you have ever taken and your grade on the AMCAS application so your GPA calculations are meaningless. Med schools will give you a GPA that they see fit when reviewing you appication. Having a Ph.D. is a pretty high achievement in my opinion. That means you know how to work hard and produce tangible results....but your lousy undergrad will cause worry at the same time. I would say that your defining aspect will be you MCAT score. This will tell how far you really have come since your 2.7 days. If not Molecular Genetics is the wave of the future....haven't you read "Next" yet?

 

[silkworm]

Some, but by no means most, med schools will automatically screen you out based on the GPA. My advice is to take a look at MDApplicants.com and search for profiles with sub-3.0 GPA who were accepted in the past cycles and see which schools they applied and what they did to improve their record.

I would consider retaking the organic chem course since they are often considered a very important premed class and you performed poorly on it before. I don't think it's worthwhile to take other undergrad bio classes since you already have a PhD in the field.

 

[choppo23]

are you trying to tell me that having a PhD in Molecular Genetics won't help me over a college student who got good grades in classes??!! If that is the case then I won't even apply because the system has failed to acknowledge who would be the best students.

 

[spicedmanna]

are you trying to tell me that having a PhD in Molecular Genetics won't help me over a college student who got good grades in classes??!! If that is the case then I won't even apply because the system has failed to acknowledge who would be the best students.

Well, it is probably true for some medical schools. The problem with graduate work is that the adcomms don't usually have a way to compare the work that you did with other applicants. It's an intangible factor. Some schools will treat it like a solid extracurricular activity. This is not to say that good graduate work isn't favorable; it obviously is, and will most certainly be viewed that way. It's just that some schools will screen you out on your undergraduate GPA despite your graduate work. Not all schools do this. You will want to apply very broadly, to many schools to maximize your chances. Of course, rocking your MCAT will do much to shift things over to your favor and help you pass the initial screen. Again, I want to say that not all schools do this. I mean you might get screened out of some schools, but not others. That's why applying to many schools will help you.

If you are interested in DO programs, they tend to be less critical of past performance and will look at the intangibles with a good amount of weight in the admissions process. You may wish to consider applying to DO schools in addition to allopathic schools.

 

[QofQuimica]

are you trying to tell me that having a PhD in Molecular Genetics won't help me over a college student who got good grades in classes??!! If that is the case then I won't even apply because the system has failed to acknowledge who would be the best students.

That's exactly what s/he's telling you. Did you ever figure out what your total UG GPA is, including every UG class you've ever taken? If it's less than 3.0, you will have a very tough time getting past schools that screen for GPA, even with a high grad GPA. I had a 4.0 GPA for my PhD and no UG GPA (my college was P/F), and I had stellar MCAT scores, so I am speaking to you from experience here. If you're serious about medical school, you're going to have to leave the ego at the door and find out how much damage repair you need to do to make yourself reasonably competitive as an applicant. Med school ain't grad school, and you have to prove yourself according to their rules, not yours.

I'll also tell you that those "college students who got good grades in classes" have a lot more going for them than you give them credit for or realize right now. Don't underestimate them; they may only have BS degrees, but they're d*** sharp, motivated, and highly accomplished. You'll soon see what I mean when you find yourself working as hard as you can just to keep up with them in your med school classes.

 

[choppo23]

so in summary, I basically need to get through the initial screening by getting a really good MCAT score. Initial screenings sound like computer algorithms that have numbers plugged into them and have very little human subjectivity. If I get past that point (and won't from a lot of schools) then my grad work will help me in interviews and hopefully finally being accepted.

I should also learn more and maybe apply to DO schools.

Thanks again folks.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'll also tell you that those "college students who got good grades in classes" have a lot more going for them than you give them credit for or realize right now. Don't underestimate them; they may only have BS degrees, but they're d*** sharp, motivated, and highly accomplished. You'll soon see what I mean when you find yourself working as hard as you can just to keep up with them in your med school classes.

Agree with this. There are some scary smart youngsters in med school. And more than a few people with an amazingly singular focus and purpose in life given their age. Advanced degrees tend to be regarded more along the lines of an unusual EC rather than evidence of academic performance, and graduate GPAs can hurt you but rarely help you. The undergrad plus ug postbac GPA and BCPM is going to loom large for any applicant, regardless of the letters after their name.

 

[Law2Doc]

so in summary, I basically need to get through the initial screening by getting a really good MCAT score. Initial screenings sound like computer algorithms that have numbers plugged into them and have very little human subjectivity. If I get past that point (and won't from a lot of schools) then my grad work will help me in interviews and hopefully finally being accepted.

I should also learn more and maybe apply to DO schools.

Thanks again folks.

I'm not sure it works this way. Not all schools formulaically combine GPA and MCAT. Some schools reportedly screen for a 3.0 undergrad (+ ug postbac). The notion on the pre-allo board that you can overcome a bad GPA with a high MCAT is largely myth. Both are independently important and both need to be addressed separately.

 

[polly-o]

having a phd in molecular genetics doesn't automatically make you a better student than undergrads that have done very well in their classes. as was said before, adcoms have a hard time distinguishing between grad school work because it isn't standardized. some people do incredible stuff during their phd and have committees that require them to have several first author papers and ensuring that they really are contributing something novel to the scientific literature. other people in other programs float by, do three years of 9-5, take some classes and take the three letters after their name. adcoms know this too. so unless you have some stellar, tangible results of your research to show that you really stood out... as was said, the phd really just looks like a nice EC.

are you trying to tell me that having a PhD in Molecular Genetics won't help me over a college student who got good grades in classes??!! If that is the case then I won't even apply because the system has failed to acknowledge who would be the best students.

 

[ShyRem]

It's a game, and an unfair one at that. The screenings don't take into account lots of things, but when you're looking at thousands of applicants for a few hundred interview spots, they need to use something to "cut the fat" so to speak.

As for "best students", what about those (and I'm sure you have ALL met at least one of these) who can teach it, manipulate it, use it, and if it's practical stuff, make the machinery stand up and make you breakfast in the morning, but can't pass an exam to save their lives? I've met a few of these, and when I needed help, those are who I went to. Yet on paper they're failures. Are they unworthy? The system isn't perfect, but it's a system nonetheless.

I know someone who almost failed out of high school (and did fail out of college several times), yet when his aptitude was tested (we'll call it IQ for lack of better word) he came out off the charts for mechanical aptitude. Couldn't pass an exam for life, blood, or money, but give him something broken and he could fix it. Perfectly. Is he unworthy?

Good luck. Remember: if you don't try, YOU are the one saying no. Make THEM say no. And look into DO schools. You might be surprised at what you learn there.

 

[QofQuimica]

so in summary, I basically need to get through the initial screening by getting a really good MCAT score. Initial screenings sound like computer algorithms that have numbers plugged into them and have very little human subjectivity. If I get past that point (and won't from a lot of schools) then my grad work will help me in interviews and hopefully finally being accepted.

I should also learn more and maybe apply to DO schools.

Thanks again folks.

No, you need BOTH a good MCAT score AND a competitive GPA. A great MCAT score is not a panacea to overcome everything else that's uncompetitive about a person's app. Not even a perfect 45 MCAT score can bring your UG GPA to within an acceptable range if it's not there already; only taking more UG-level classes and smoking them can do that. I can also tell you that it's not so easy to ace the MCAT; the MCAT is a curved test, and the 30 score that people will tell you to shoot for is actually at about the 75th percentile. A 35 is about the 95th percentile. SDN is deceiving; the vast majority of people don't earn scores of 35+ on the MCAT.

I agree with the posters who have suggested that you look into osteopathic schools. Unlike AMCAS, AACOMAS will let you replace your grades instead of averaging them. So for example, if you retake organic and get an A this time, AACOMAS will replace that D with the A for the DO schools, but AMCAS will average both grades together for the MD schools. You can obviously bring your UG GPA up into a competitive range much faster if you go the DO route.

 

[choppo23]

having a phd in molecular genetics doesn't automatically make you a better student than undergrads that have done very well in their classes. as was said before, adcoms have a hard time distinguishing between grad school work because it isn't standardized. some people do incredible stuff during their phd and have committees that require them to have several first author papers and ensuring that they really are contributing something novel to the scientific literature. other people in other programs float by, do three years of 9-5, take some classes and take the three letters after their name. adcoms know this too. so unless you have some stellar, tangible results of your research to show that you really stood out... as was said, the phd really just looks like a nice EC.

I understand your point about using undergrad GPA because it can be used to evaluate all students. I would think though, that the PhD would help me more than just being an EC, such as volunteering at a soup kitchen. I also think you would be hard-pressed to find a PhD in the biological sciences who floated by working 9-5 for 3 years, and the adcom should know that. A PhD in a medically relevant field, with first author publications in respectable journals, great course work, and tutoring grad. level courses SHOULD count for a lot once past the initial cookie cutter screen. If it turns out it doesn't count for much, then schools are missing out on great students who can not only memorize text and symbols, but have a proven track record of applying what they've learned in a practical setting, and thinking for themselves.

I'm planning on setting up a meeting with the Dean of Admissions here at Einstein, and will post back what she says. Hopefully, whatever she says will help answer others questions as well. BTW, I appreciate all of the constructive criticism and I'm learning quickly about this process.

 

[choppo23]

No, you need BOTH a good MCAT score AND a competitive GPA. A great MCAT score is not a panacea to overcome everything else that's uncompetitive about a person's app. Not even a perfect 45 MCAT score can bring your UG GPA to within an acceptable range if it's not there already; only taking more UG-level classes and smoking them can do that. I can also tell you that it's not so easy to ace the MCAT; the MCAT is a curved test, and the 30 score that people will tell you to shoot for is actually at about the 75th percentile. A 35 is about the 95th percentile. SDN is deceiving; the vast majority of people don't earn scores of 35+ on the MCAT.

I agree with the posters who have suggested that you look into osteopathic schools. Unlike AMCAS, AACOMAS will let you replace your grades instead of averaging them. So for example, if you retake organic and get an A this time, AACOMAS will replace that D with the A for the DO schools, but AMCAS will average both grades together for the MD schools. You can obviously bring your UG GPA up into a competitive range much faster if you go the DO route.

Thanks, I'll look into DO schools as well. I'm awaiting transcripts from both schools where I did my undergrad coursework. I'm going to figure out my combined GPA from them as well as science related and have a better understanding of where I stand.

 

[DrMidlife]

bring your UG GPA to within an acceptable range if it's not there already; only taking more UG-level classes and smoking them can do that

Voice of doom and gloom and more doom here. The "A" in GPA means that while it's possible to improve a GPA, it's a mistake to assume a GPA can be fixed. You can smoke a huge number of additional undergrad classes and see precious little GPA improvement. Furthermore you can fight your way back up to a 3.0 or a 3.5 and then find that different schools' GPA definitions put you back under.

Don't Kid Yourself, Point #1: If you already have an undergrad degree, the GPA you got has powerful gravitational pull.

If your 4-year degree GPA was 2.5, 2 more years at a 4.0 will buy you a 3.0.
If your 4-year degree GPA was 3.0, 2 more years at a 4.0 will buy you a 3.3.
If your 4-year degree GPA was 3.5, 2 more years at a 4.0 will buy you a 3.7.

Don't Kid Yourself, Point #2: If you've never pulled a 4.0, don't expect to pull a 4.0. By all means work your butt off to get a 4.0; just keep in mind that premed prereqs attract the kids that also want that 4.0, and have been smartypantses their whole lives too. So let's try those numbers again with more realistic expectations:

If your 4-year degree GPA was 2.5, 2 more years at a 3.5 will buy you a 2.8.
If your 4-year degree GPA was 3.0, 2 more years at a 3.5 will buy you a 3.2.

 

[QofQuimica]

Voice of doom and gloom and more doom here. The "A" in GPA means that while it's possible to improve a GPA, it's a mistake to assume a GPA can be fixed. You can smoke a huge number of additional undergrad classes and see precious little GPA improvement. Furthermore you can fight your way back up to a 3.0 or a 3.5 and then find that different schools' GPA definitions put you back under.

Don't Kid Yourself, Point #1: If you already have an undergrad degree, the GPA you got has powerful gravitational pull.

If your 4-year degree GPA was 2.5, 2 more years at a 4.0 will buy you a 3.0.
If your 4-year degree GPA was 3.0, 2 more years at a 4.0 will buy you a 3.3.
If your 4-year degree GPA was 3.5, 2 more years at a 4.0 will buy you a 3.7.

Don't Kid Yourself, Point #2: If you've never pulled a 4.0, don't expect to pull a 4.0. By all means work your butt off to get a 4.0; just keep in mind that premed prereqs attract the kids that also want that 4.0, and have been smartypantses their whole lives too. So let's try those numbers again with more realistic expectations:

If your 4-year degree GPA was 2.5, 2 more years at a 3.5 will buy you a 2.8.
If your 4-year degree GPA was 3.0, 2 more years at a 3.5 will buy you a 3.2.

That's why I suggested that the OP look at DO schools. They replace old grades rather than averaging them like AMCAS does.

 

[IT2MD]

I thought some allo school also replace the grades after the fact.

 

[Law2Doc]

I thought some allo school also replace the grades after the fact.

Not that I am aware of. But I do think they do some funky things when calculating the GPA they report to MSAR, US News etc. (eg. they won't let your graduate GPA matter in admissions, but somehow it counts when it makes the school look more competitive. )

 

[ShyRem]

AMCAS averages grades for retakes, while ACOMAS replaces grades for retakes.

 

[1Path]

This best "solution" for a weak undergrad is time and distance, although I did have one grad program bring it up recently even the grades are over 20 years old AND I have a Master's degree in Chemistry.

A D+ in orgo screams retake orgo I and II and get A's to have a decent shot at doing well on the MCAT. And I think a decent shot at allopathic schools can be had with some patience, and least that worked for me in the past. I'd retake ALL the preqs since you'll be competing with folks who have had the classes recently AND did well in them. Then I'd do a special master's program with a linkage to a med school. That's at least an extra 2 to 3 years during which I'd do a post doc and publish, present at national meetings, ect.

If DO is cool, I'd simply take the MCAT and apply.

 

[1Path]

Voice of doom and gloom and more doom here. The "A" in GPA means that while it's possible to improve a GPA, it's a mistake to assume a GPA can be fixed. You can smoke a huge number of additional undergrad classes and see precious little GPA improvement. Furthermore you can fight your way back up to a 3.0 or a 3.5 and then find that different schools' GPA definitions put you back under.

Don't Kid Yourself, Point #1: If you already have an undergrad degree, the GPA you got has powerful gravitational pull.

If your 4-year degree GPA was 2.5, 2 more years at a 4.0 will buy you a 3.0.
If your 4-year degree GPA was 3.0, 2 more years at a 4.0 will buy you a 3.3.
If your 4-year degree GPA was 3.5, 2 more years at a 4.0 will buy you a 3.7.

Don't Kid Yourself, Point #2: If you've never pulled a 4.0, don't expect to pull a 4.0. By all means work your butt off to get a 4.0; just keep in mind that premed prereqs attract the kids that also want that 4.0, and have been smartypantses their whole lives too. So let's try those numbers again with more realistic expectations:

If your 4-year degree GPA was 2.5, 2 more years at a 3.5 will buy you a 2.8.
If your 4-year degree GPA was 3.0, 2 more years at a 3.5 will buy you a 3.2.

Sad and depressing, but so very true!

 

[choppo23]

If DO is cool, I'd simply take the MCAT and apply.[/quote]


I'm interested to see if others agree with this?
Thanks for your opinions on this

 

[spicedmanna]

If DO is cool, I'd simply take the MCAT and apply.


I'm interested to see if others agree with this?
Thanks for your opinions on this

Well, I understand your urgency, but I personally wouldn't apply to either DO or MD programs until I did what I could to maximize my chances. You really don't want to reapply, if possible. Apply to get in the first time around.

DO schools will replace your old grades for new ones. Thus, it would be to your advantage to retake the undergraduate classes in which you performed poorly, particularly your prerequisite courses. This would increase your undergraduate GPA, which is used for admissions purposes at both DO and MD schools. And, yes, they do look at trends in combination with your MCAT score (so, rock it as hard as you can).

 

[QofQuimica]

Well, I understand your urgency, but I personally wouldn't apply to either DO or MD programs until I did what I could to maximize my chances. You really don't want to reapply, if possible. Apply to get in the first time around.

DO schools will replace your old grades for new ones. Thus, it would be to your advantage to retake the undergraduate classes in which you performed poorly, particularly your prerequisite courses. This would increase your undergraduate GPA, which is used for admissions purposes at both DO and MD schools. And, yes, they do look at trends in combination with your MCAT score (so, rock it as hard as you can).

Agree completely.