Mental illness as a therapist, student, etc.

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Ok...that being said, I'm particularly disgusted at how nasty some people have been to the OP CONSIDERING that one of the OP's diagnoses is BPD. If you know anything about BPD beyond what the DSM says, you should well know that the sorts of jabs handed out to the OP on this board (no matter how much the OP may try to hold their head high & defend themself) are just the sort of thing that can send a person with BPD into a self-injurious, self-loathing spiral. (Some studies, which have been summarized in the Monitor in the past year, have stated that persons with BPD are more observant than the general population when it comes to sensing the moods, mood changes, & attitudes of others.) Considering all that, I think it is quite disturbing that psychologists & wanna-be-psychologists would "turn the soil," so-to-speak, to ready it for self-harm. I don't know what else to say at this point, other than I am very disappointed.
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At first I started to agree with you and had thoughts of this myself, that in fact the OP may have been spiraled into self-harm or self-hate, etc.
But then I began to review the OPs posts here and her posts at PsychCentral which she has an incredible grandiose view of herself (comparison to Jamison).

The OP claims that she has incredible insight and is continuously reflective. If so, these posts here would perhaps stimulate the OP to reflect on her behaviors, particularly since many "professionals" are in disagreement with her behaviors.

She revealed herself here and dicussed her behaviors, symptoms and mental health issues. She announced her posting in PsychCentral, which are even more out-of-control.

Are we as "practicing professionals" supposed to react as I would to my BPD clients. NO! She is not a client. She is here stating she is a "professional." Thus, my job as a professional is to make someone like this aware of the harm they could do to their clients.

If she wanted support and empathy, she should have disclosed her post to her personal therapist, not a forum of professionals concerned about the ethics and care of clients.

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Psyched77 -


OP CONSIDERING that one of the OP's diagnoses is BPD. If you know anything about BPD beyond what the DSM says, you should well know that the sorts of jabs handed out to the OP on this board (no matter how much the OP may try to hold their head high & defend themself) are just the sort of thing that can send a person with BPD into a self-injurious, self-loathing spiral.

Are you serious? This is a board for professional exchange, not for psychotherapy or the therapuetic process.

I think your response is typical too, in reaction to a PD, especially BPD - that we need to "take care of Pinksoil's feelings" because she is a borderline and might self- harm. Is what we say on a message board something that might actually send her into a spiral of self-loathing. What about a suicide attempt?

So now we need to tiptoe around the real issues she brought up because Pinksoil is BPD? What if she had DID, what about depression, or OCD?

If it weren't for the provocative self-disclosure, this would basically be a non-issue. Second that, for the splitting that is occurring on this thread.


Is Pinksoil patient or a colleague, here? She posted something on SDN, which is geared toward professionals with similiar professional interests. So, I'm not going to treat her as if she were my patient with BPD.

I don't see any attacks, but serious concerns about impairment.

I've heard about enough cases of impaired physicians doing real harm to patients. I think this is pretty serious. Neither you nor Pinksoil has addressed these issues that are a case for impairment that she herself disclosed.

I would really like to see that addressed (as was strongly stated in the first post) rather than all these other, tangential issues.
 
I'm not suggesting the OP is our client, & I'm not suggesting that everyone should be comfortable with the situation. What I am saying (if you go back & read like the first 3 lines of what I wrote) is that there is a more appropriate way to address the situation than with sarcasm, animosity, or anger. (See Jon Snow's post, as I said, for a good example of how to do this.) And regardless of whether PinkSoil is the client of anyone here or not, isn't it our ethical responsibility to not do anything harmful (speaking of this being a professional board)??? I personally care about psychology & the ethical concerns of psychology whether I am in a clinical setting or not.
 
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I agree - psyched77, first do no harm.

OK, but having said that - here we have a real situation. Not the hypothetical, but the very real, albeit single view of what someone posted.

Should I be more concerned about all the patients Pinksoil's seeing (could be alot!) in a quite possible impaired state - or her?

I guess that's another dilemma. I don't see how this can be addressed except by voicing concerns to the practioner - which I haven't heard her even acknoweldge the possible dangers or pitfalls.

I think this is going around and around - hmm, name that axis.

EDIT - not that there should be a dichotomy in caring Pinksoil versus her patients - but given the context - I think about the patients.
 
I agree - psyched77, first do no harm.

OK, but having said that - here we have a real situation. Not the hypothetical, but the very real, albeit single view of what someone posted.

Should I be more concerned about all the patients Pinksoil's seeing (could be alot!) in a quite possible impaired state - or her?

I guess that's another dilemma. I don't see how this can be addressed except by voicing concerns to the practioner - which I haven't heard her even acknoweldge the possible dangers or pitfalls.

I think this is going around and around - hmm, name that axis.

I think we agree more than you realize. I AM concerned about the OP practicing in his/her current state. I am just saying that there is an appropriate way to discuss the concern & an inappropriate way to discuss the concern. I'm reposting Snow's post that I thought was especially to the point, helpful, & non-attacking:

While, of course, someone in the midst of a depressive or manic cycle with bipolar disorder would be an obvious problem, bipolar disorder can often be controlled fairly well with medication (though not always); anxiety disorders tend to also be fairly treatable. BPD strikes a chord because 1) treatment success is limited 2) the nature of the disorder may be particularly dangerous in a clinical setting (that is not to say that you, personally, are a poor or dangerous clinician) and, in your case 3) you have mentioned symptoms severe enough to warrant inpatient treatment recently, which, potentially, suggests an uncontrolled situation.

People here responded to your example of a connection with a borderline patient because borderlines tend to have "special" and "intense" relationships in which they idealize people as the only ones who get them and they tend to go on about how said person can do no wrong until that image is shaken and then they can do no right. It's not about a motive; the feelings are usually genuine from what I understand. It's about the derivation of the feelings. We cannot speak to a particular case and are treading dangerous waters in discussing one of your patient's at all, no matter how vague. But, speaking in steretypes, such a statement in therapy from a borderline patient wouldn't surprise me at all. It was an unfortunate example; that's all.

He makes some solid, articulate, compelling points. He expresses a serious reservation in the OP practicing. Yet, he speaks of it in a respectful, productive way.

That's all I'm trying to say. Some people here have said some pretty sharp, personal things that aren't at all productive & border on unethical.

To clarify, I have grave reservations about the OP practicing. (I'll assume it's a she, since the majority of people with BPD are female, & she mentions her husband on PsychCentral.) She mentioned a need for in-patient services THIS MONTH. If she had said, "I have these diagnoses but am stabalized & functioning," I wouldn't have the same reservations. However, a person who is in crisis & needs in-patient services is an entirely different story. Furthermore, with current & frequent cutting, current disassociative episodes, etc., I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that she thinks she is in a safe & productive place to practice. I understand that to her, BPD (et al) is part of her reality & that she is "functioning" through it, but I think she fails to realize that it is hard to be objective with oneself, about oneself. Of course, it should be made clear that a BPD diagnosis is not a professional "death sentence." Rather, the critique here is about her functioning, stability, clarity, & objectivity.

I understand that the OP is resisting/pushing back against the constraints of her perceived duality...patient vs. clinician. This should be understandable. I experience this duality as a student & mother...in which each side doesn't jive with the other 100%. The lists of dualities that we each experience are long. As a person with a secular worldview, I have found that secular groups aren't necessarily feminists or anti-racists or whatever my other passions are. These failures to overlap can be irritating, or even distressing to some. However, the duality between MI & practice is more serious. The OP needs to understand that it is not that she cannot exist in both of these capacities simultaneously; it is that one capacity cannot harm the other.

All being said, I think there is a productive & meaningful way of discussing this scenario & ones like it.
 
All being said, I think there is a productive & meaningful way of discussing this scenario & ones like it.

I totally hear you on this.

However, it's kind of hard to have a meaningful discussion when the OP kind of drops the bomb and leaves. I personally didn't see anything written by as attacking.

I saw alot of really thoughtful responses to Pinksoil. None of which she replied to with any other than her own sarcasm and defensiveness. But maybe that's me.

So, if some responses, (speaking for myself) were out of line - I would atrritribute that to frustration on my part in terms on the lack of real communication, in the face of some dire and disturbing behaviors (enough to require inpatient) - while working with patients/clients.

I think the main point is, none of the real concerns have been addressed (ie, the contents of the original post) - I think otherwise, everyone is just going around in circles, trying to respond in the best way they can.
 
your last paagraph exemplifies the brilliance of the borderline... this board is doing the work for her... this board is allowing itself to be split...

in my opinion, this is where our professional experience should have bonded us together to avoid being split...

I agree with psyched77 (i think-am on phone and can't review posts as I am entering them)... we should possess the skills to de-escalate or, at least, the wisdom to refrain from escalating a situation

the op isn't a client so citing the code of ethics should have been professionally sufficient to end this conversation, picking apart flawed thinking doesn't move anything forward and this isn't the place to give reason to the dangers... stating them is just fine but honestly, if she was in my state, I'd file a report with the board before trying to win a messageboard match... there is plenty of recent info out there to at least warrant a mandate for double supervision...

I am not innocent and not trying to say I'm all good and those who kept feeding into her directly were all bad, I did react especially when I finally made the decision to go to psychcentral and read posts of lots of their members... I just reacted off the view of the main board...

I think it is natural to react... we wouldn't be human if we didn't... but a noticeably absent op having posts lower in count than my own is a good indicator of effort and possibly interest... ha..

I'm glad this thread pointed me to psychcentral. I am fairly new to practice (less than 5yrs) and I have heard about these sorts of scenarios without yet being a part of one (or at least recognizing it)... my very last job was case management for 6 weeks and I suppose that gave me a little more awareness of the client clinician relationship bc I was on the outside for the first time.. but seriously, wow, interesting to read it as it is happening from clients' viewpoints and not just hearing a story from a colleague...

thanks again for letting me process all of this with you... it has really opened up a new window on client therapist relationships for me...
 
The OP is not one of my patients an I will not treat her as such. This is a professional forum, not a self help group, and not a therapy session. She should be regarded as a colleague and held to the same bar of scrutiny and ethics as our other professional colleagues. When you lay out your life on a professional forum, feelings might get hurt....this is life. Real life is not always as warm and cuddly as the therapy room.
 
i agree, this thread has been a real learning expereince, and i thank everyone -- so many folks have taken the time to write real and thoughtful posts.

it has certianly made me think about where my own interest in psych came from, as well as what has steered others towards our field. this thread has also made me so aware of the risks this internet poses -- i was able to find out all sorts of stuff about pink soil in minutes. i goodled my name (nothing except some old jobs and vol work) and then this handle. i've only used it to post on SDN, so all you can see is that i am going to yeshiva and i freaked out a lot during apps. like, alot. i feel okay with that. but there are many other psybees, according to my google search, some into fanfic and some into porn. that's kinda worrisome!
 
The OP has not disappeared. She is not being seen on milk cartons across the world. She has been at work and cannot be on the internet all day long.

It has been so interesting and thought provoking reading all of your posts. Sometimes, I will admit, it has been funny. Particularly when someone said that I compared myself to Kay Redfield-Jamison and that meant I had a "grandiose" view of myself. Let's not get carried away, people. Remember-- I'm the borderline, I'm supposed to be extreme! lol. All I was trying to state was that it is possible for people to have very serious illnesses and still suceed-- that it is possible to compartmentalize yourself as such.

What I find most amusing about having a mental illness is that everything that one begins to do, becomes a symptom. Mention an amazing person-- suddently you're engaging in grandiose thinking! Talk about a connecting moment with a patient who has BPD-- uh oh! A shared moment of idealistic thinking! And while I do appreciate the concerning post of one member; no, this thread is not going to send me into a deep, dark hole of self-loathing and self-injury. I did not come here for empathy, I did not come here to be taken care of. I am a professional like all of you. I mentioned "personal attacks" because I was, at time, honestly shocked at the way some of the replies came across. I was also shocked at how so many people opened up to share the insight that they, themselves, have gained by reading this thread. And most of all, I was really satisfied to see how all of you keep one thing in mind-- the well-being of the individuals we serve.

Reading over the thread, I felt like I should clarify something. This is in regards to my functioning as a therapist (to do no harm to my patients) and my (almost) hospitalization. Last month was the first time in my entire life in which I was no longer able to compartmentalize my illness from my work. Because of this, I became immediately concerned of the dangerous impact this could have. As such, I decided to take a leave of absence from my work to get myself together again. I was taking care of myself and the clients that I was serving (I was at a different job than I am at now). I do not feel like disclosing my exact reasons for seeking out hospitalization, but I can say I completely understand why that would be alarming for those reading this thread-- in that I sought hospitalization in the same month that I started a new job as a therapist.

I keep close watch over myself. So does my therapist. So does my psychiatrist. I have had an amazing two weeks at my new job. I went in there today after having a not-so-hot night last night. I processed this on my way into work and thought about the many things I read on this thread in the past couple of days-- mostly, my capacity to serve my patients through difficult times. It's so funny and hard to explain if you haven't experienced it, but as soon as I was with that first patient, I was right there, in the moment, experiencing the authentic connection that I love about giving (and receiving!) therapy. I know that at this time in my life, I am well enough to be where I have to be and do what I have to do. And a little over a month ago, I knew it was time to stop and take care of myself, as I described above. I know myself better than anyone and I know when work becomes the most grounding, beneficial thing that life can offer me. I love doing what I do. I am scared to death of doctoral school-- I will admit that! There is no room for error in regards to my illness screwing me over, and it is a risk that I chose for myself. You are all correct in that there is a difference between having an active illness and having an illness that has stabilizing and allows one to do the best work possible-- somehow, I have found a balance between the two. That is just the way my crazy life works. The theme of my doctoral essay was about taking risks. I have taken a million of them to get to where I am today.

The best (and most hopeful) thing about BPD is that for every negative trait, there is its positive opposite. Healing in BPD comes not through a cure, but through being able to turn those negative traits into their positive opposite. Negative impulsivity can evolve into a positive risk taker. Even self-harm, which in its most raw sense, is a dangerous and negative form of self expression, can evolve into more beautiful forms of creativity such as poetry, art, and music. The childlike quality of an individual with BPD can evolve into an adult who never loses the wonder and charm of those things that others take for granted. Similarly for depression-- it is interesting that two of the standout features-- guilt and apathy-- are polar opposites. To feel that guilty, as one does during a depression, is to care. I pointed this out to one of my patients, who was worried that he "shouldn't" be feeling guilty about a family situation. We talked about how the feeling of such guilt can translate to the deep care. Anyway, forgive me for going of on a tangent, but I have spent a lot of time examining how negative traits that are part of my personality (lifelong!) can evolve into things that are unique and positive.

As far as "the brilliance of the borderline" (Thank you DrWannaBeMe), you can refer to that as "the brilliance of me" lol. Although you decided to jump to a symptom (I magically made the members on the board split), you are right in one aspect-- I did get what I wanted-- I wanted people to think, debate, and consider something that was obviously never brought up (at least not like this!) on this board before-- something that exists and something that should be examined. In doing so, there were times when I felt attacked, supported, grateful, thoughtful, injected with insight, in agreement, in disagreement, and everythign in between.

Let's see.. what else... ah! As far as internet disclosure, I am really not worried. I am a published poet and my name appears over and over on the internet in respect to the various online journals that have posted my poetry, as well as the advertisements and reviews for readings that I do around the city. These poems, most of them surreal in style, but some confessionalist and direct, are an obvious example of some of the things I deal with. I am also currently working on a memoir.

Lastly, an illness is part of an identity, but not a WHOLE identity. I struggled for many years trying to figure out the "sick" part separate from the "well" part. I found out that both parts are integrated into one personality. If I could could go on some crappy makeover reality show and makeover my psyche, I wouldn't. If I could erase any aspect of myself, I wouldn't. I believe that what I have gone through (and continue to go through) allows me to be a clinician so unique from any other.

I thank you for treating me like a professional and not a patient.
 
Real life is not always as warm and cuddly as the therapy room.

I'm an undergrad, so I admittedly know jack about this, but shouldn't therapy be as close to a mirror of "real life" as possible? I mean, isn't that kind of the point--to help clients function well in the "real world"?

She should be regarded as a colleague and held to the same bar of scrutiny and ethics as our other professional colleagues.

But is she being treated as such? You could almost hear the "crazy" bells go off on posters' minds the moment they read "Borderline" (who knows about other dx's?). Would you respect a collegue or hire them if you knew they had a BPD dx? Or any other dx (which ones--if any--would be okay?)? Would you ever fully "trust" that individual as a clinician?

Also, I think it's important to recognize that everyone has issues. I had a professor who swore up and down the entire semester that she didn't have "issues," only to later tell me privately of her (very subclinical but still there) issues in some areas.
 
I'm an undergrad, so I admittedly know jack about this, but shouldn't therapy be as close to a mirror of "real life" as possible? I mean, isn't that kind of the point--to help clients function well in the "real world"?



But is she being treated as such? You could almost hear the "crazy" bells go off on posters' minds the moment they read "Borderline" (who knows about other dx's?). Would you respect a collegue or hire them if you knew they had a BPD dx? Or any other dx (which ones--if any--would be okay?)? Would you ever fully "trust" that individual as a clinician?

Also, I think it's important to recognize that everyone has issues. I had a professor who swore up and down the entire semester that she didn't have "issues," only to later tell me privately of her (very subclinical but still there) issues in some areas.

I see what you are saying with the first statement. However, I am pretty confident that anyone who has done therapy would say no, not exactly anyway. The formal therapeutic relationship holds an innate power differential between therapist and client. You are not the clients friend, in the typical sense of the word. Most theoretical orientations of therpay hold that the that therapeutic hour is one of the few "safe places" for clients to come and be treated with unconditional positive regard. A place where a warm and nurturing environment facilitates emotional catharsis and behavior change. This is used to facilitate adaptability and functioning in the outside world, it is by no means meant to mimic the real world. Obviously, it does not. While we should all strive to be respectful of others, the safety net that the therapeutic hour provides does not approximate many real life situations. I would argue that when one is involved in an academic or intellectual discussion, a certain amount of pointedness and careful confrontation/challenging is necessary in the discourse.

The last point I also understand, but I would argue the is a large difference between a mild dysthymia or a subclincial condition and seeing someone for support, than someone who has multiple active psychopathologies that can affect proper judgment. This latter is the case with the OP.
 
The last point I also understand, but I would argue the is a large difference between a mild dysthymia or a subclincial condition and seeing someone for support, than someone who has multiple active psychopathologies that can affect proper judgment. This latter is the case with the OP.

Where would you draw the line, though? Would someone treated for, say, depression or OCD, in the past three years be a "risk"? Or would they be okay? Would someone treated for a personality disorder ever be "okay," as most (all?) axis II are chronic and have less-than-great treatment outcomes (actually, you could probably say that of some Axis I d/o, too [AN and BN come to mind])? It's an interesting question, I think.
 
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Yes, welcome to the clinical world where few ethical standards are straightforward. Section 2.06a and 2.06b of the 2002 ethics code are vague in this respect. Again, welcome to psych. I would argue that almost any condition has the potential to affect judgment and clinical work. Any person with a true PD will likely have it shine through in their clinical work. The line between less than optimal clinical or therapeutic demeanor with patients and actual harm to a patient is a fine one, but it exists. However, I think they key is active symptoms and their severity. I made the analogy that epileptics have their driving privileges suspended until they have gone through a certain period of time seizure free. I doubt anyone would argue with this policy. I would think something similar would be in line with those who have suffered serious symptoms or psychopathologies. They should be free of serious symptoms that can affect insight, judgment, and ability to work before they are allowed to see patients. Much as with epileptics, the symptoms free time period is not a fail safe, but significantly reduces the potential for harm (statistically) through a series of checks and balances. This mistaken notion that those with mental illness will not, or should not have it effect some of their career choices, while PC to say, is simply untrue.
 
This is a very interesting discussion and I can see both sides of it. I think, though, that a person whose symptoms are severe enough to merit hospitalization should not be practicing at least for a period of time.

The above post said it best, I think.

Also, just wanted to say: I didn't know Linehan was diagnosed with BPD, herself.
 
I was not going to post any longer on this thread, because I think that the majority of us concur that the OP is at a minimum a SEVERE potential threat of harming her clients and in perhaps violation of the APA code of ethics (which someone else posted a link to for your review about personal issues)

But, during my travels through PsychCentral, I found this:
Posted by the OP herself.

"I am scared, however, because I have been going through such a %#@&#! cyclone for the past eight months or so. It all started with a four-month depressive episode and turned into out of control SI, mood swings, etc.

Where it stands now-- I am still SI'ing, I was just taken off of Lithium last night because of symptoms indicated that the levels were getting too high, I deal with suicidal feelings everyday (not going to act on it), and am still feeling the disappointment and anger of a denial of admission to an inpatient hospital to get help.

So basically, I am still in the middle of this total cyclone and I'm walking into a full-time job with it. "
===============

At least you are aware that you are out of control. Now, you need to become aware that you have the potential for severe harm to people who are extremely vulnerable.
This post states that this has been going on for "8 months or so." So you have been practicing in some form during this entire time period, when you were dealing with suicidal feelings, out of control SI, and having mood swings.
Don't you see this as a violation of the Code of Ethics? You say you are so-low, you want to kill yourself, everyday.

And as far as being open on the internet, OP, your posts lead your clients right to knowing your behaviors and actions. This while not probably as clear in the Code of Ethics, is simple disclosure.
 
Section 1.04 APA Ethics Code (2002)
"When psychologists believe that there may have been an ethical violation by another psychologist, they attempt to resolve the issue by bringing it to the attention of that individual, if an informal resolution appears appropriate and the intervention does not violate any confidentiality rights that may be involved."
 
Interesting how everyone mentions that the OP is missing-- then I write a really long post and no one says anything, lol.

As far as all the quotes from the code of ethics-- I have it at home, thanks. You can leave it alone. I'm doing really well at work. Thanks though.

:rolleyes:
 
Although admittedly interesting to review the past couple of days, I see this thread going no where anytime soon and I'm somewhat surprised that it has yet to be locked.
 
Ditto on that. Actually it's getting somewhat out of control as people also don't seem to realize that the internet is only like 1/32434723rd of a way to look at someone's life-- and not to interfere in their personal sh**-- the thread itself is personal, but was started to generate conversation, debate, and insight-- not for threats of action, and some of you know exactly what I mean.
 
Although admittedly interesting to review the past couple of days, I see this thread going no where anytime soon and I'm somewhat surprised that it has yet to be locked.

Yeah, I agree. OP should consult in real life with a supervisor about the issue and whether she is or is not too impaired to continue doing therapy; we (sdn folk) don't and shouldn't know enough to be able to talk about that. I'm still not clear on what the intention behind the initial post even was.

On another note, I'd never heard of psychcentral before this thread. I found some of the material there sort of disturbing as someone who's going to be seeing clients starting in sept.
 
Yeah, I agree. OP should consult in real life with a supervisor about the issue and whether she is or is not too impaired to continue doing therapy; we (sdn folk) don't and shouldn't know enough to be able to talk about that. I'm still not clear on what the intention behind the initial post even was.

On another note, I'd never heard of psychcentral before this thread. I found some of the material there sort of disturbing as someone who's going to be seeing clients starting in sept.

Just so that you know, in my internship I was in constant consultation with my supervisor as to my well-being in regards to doing therapy. She knew exactly what was going on with me. I understand your concerns and of course the material on PC is disturbing. The things I have to deal with are disturbing. But like it has been stated above, please let the decisions be made IRL, not on the internet. Thank you.
 
I'm still not clear on what the intention behind the initial post even was.

I think with 3 pages and a few days later, with everyone all abuzz with the drama, herds of folks looking at Pinksoil's posts on psychcentral, and this thread generating tons of attention - the intention of the original post should be pretty clear.

:laugh:

Please let this thread die.
 
I will NOT be made to feel guilty for adhering to the ethics code when borderline violations arise....and neither should anyone else. I don't feel this is getting involved in your "****", it is protecting the integrity of the profession and being vigilant about potential risk to patients. This is not personal no matter how much you want to make it so.
 
That's good. You shouldn't let anyone *make* you feel any way that you don't want to. As for me, I'm done. This got way out of hand. I declare this as a dead thread. Goooooodnight.
 
Yeah, I agree. OP should consult in real life with a supervisor about the issue and whether she is or is not too impaired to continue doing therapy; we (sdn folk) don't and shouldn't know enough to be able to talk about that.

And with that.....I'll call it a thread. It was definitely an interesting discussion, and I hope everyone can take the positives from it, and leave the rest (nod to AA for the idea).

*Closing*
 
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