Michigan or Wash U?

[harvman11]

So I asked this in the School Specific forums in the pre-med board but didn't get much help, so I figured I'd go ahead and ask here...

I've been accepted to the MST programs at both Wash U and Michigan, and I'm having a bit of trouble deciding between them. Obviously they're both great programs, and I think I'll be happy at either one, but I do have to make a decision eventually. My research interest is in the biology of aging, and I'm pretty sure that's what I will want to do my PhD in, though of course having other strong research is a plus since interests can change. Here's some of the facts/thoughts I've had so far about the programs:

Research:
Mich - Outstanding research in aging, with the Nathan Shock Center and all, and numerous (7+) PIs doing work that's pretty much exactly what I'd like to do now. Facilities seem outstanding, and only getting better with their recent purchase of a new facility.
Wash U - Lots of younger PIs doing very forward thinking research. A couple (2 that I've found so far) of PIs doing work that I'd be very interested in, but other labs are doing interesting work and the PIs seem very MD/PhD friendly. Facilities didn't seem quite as nice, but obviously I had a limited view.

Economics:
Mich - $25,500 first 2 years, $26,500 in grad school, $27,500 last 2 years. From what I've seen a slightly higher cost of living than Wash U
Wash U - $27,500 each year, low cost of living.

Location:
Mich - Ann Arbor seems like a great place, and I'd love to be back in a college town.
Wash U - St Louis has more things to do, but it doesn't really seem like there's significantly more than in Ann Arbor when you consider Detroit is fairly close by.

Reputation/Resident Placement:
both schools are great here, but I feel like Wash U definitely has the edge.

Any thoughts are welcome, and I'd especially like to hear what people think about the research at both schools and other things I should be considering.

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[xcrunner01]

You have good taste- those were my two favorite schools as well. They're both fantastic options, and you'll have a great experience at either school. I interviewed at Michigan first and was very impressed with the Big 10 campus town atmosphere, research facilities, and the MSTP faculty/students. But then I interviewed at Wash U and absolutely fell in love. The school's amazing- beautiful med school and research facilities and everyone is just SO NICE! Some people might not like this about Wash U, but a big plus for me was the large size of the program. The MSTP students make up about 1/5 of the med school class, which to me really adds a nice research emphasis into the student body, and I like the large MSTP community. Plus, the opportunities at Wash U are just unlimited- the school has so much money and seems to really support and care about its students. Seriously, Wash U students are treated so well that they're practically spoiled...printed off lecture notes delivered to your student mailbox every morning, insane amounts of free food, really nice study carrels, Wash U-sponsored parties in the penthouse after exams, MSTP weekly dinners, plus all the yearly retreats/trips. No wonder Wash U students are so happy! For me, Wash U stood far above all other schools in research, happiness of the students, beautiful facilities/hospitals, and faculty support for the students. I'm really excited to go there next year!

Good luck with the decision. Both Michigan and Wash U are excellent, highly respected programs. You really can't go wrong attending either one. Definitely try to attend both revisit weekends, and try to meet/email the PIs you're interested in at both schools- I'm sure most PIs will be happy to talk to you about their labs. Pick the school that you feel is the best fit.

 

[solitude]

I went to your same undergrad and these were two of my top choices at the end of the game, two years ago. They are very comparable, obviously, and I think that you are splitting hairs if you think one program will provide a better education than the other. I did like how WashU's program was a lot larger, and the money seemed to go really far in STL. But STL is not as desirable as a town in a lot of other ways. It just depends on your priorities though--for some people, Ann Arbor is too cold and a bit too focused on football games. But if you love football then maybe you would love it. The strength of research at Michigan should count for some but not too much, because you will probably change your mind by the time you pick a lab. Most people do.

It seems obvious, but I think the best advice is to pick a school that will maximize your happiness in non-research related things. Want a P/F curriculum, or do you want grades? Is the Michigan weather just too damn cold for you? I know for me, living in SF, the temperate weather year-round that allows me to do outdoor activities makes a huge difference in my personal happiness. Going to a school that is P/F the first two years is also amazing in decreasing stress levels. Don't worry about getting the right lab, getting the right residency, etc. That stuff will all fall into place if you work hard at either of those schools. Consider what you are going to do outside of class, to keep yourself sane and happy. Does Ann Arbor or STL trump in that regard? If neither does, then flip a coin or keep splitting hairs about reputation, etc. .

good luck, and let me know if you have more specific questions.

 

[Freak]

harvman11 ... first thing U Wash and Wash U ... two different beasts

Secondly, I would suggest you consider what your priorities are. This is a decision that you will have the better part of a decade to think about (both plus and minus). The parameters I think are important (may or may not apply to you).

You can make this a cold decision by creating a weighted formula of how important (1-10, 10 being better) each parameter is and then (1-5, 5 being better) how each school scores on said parameter. Then you will see how each school fares objectively on your priorities.

1. The future:
Which school is going to prepare you better for what you want to do in the future (ie. I want to go to residency in city X in field X) ... I know that somewhere you can find the residency matches of MSTP programs. Or I want to eventually be a faculty member at school X (I know Wash U tracks their MSTP alumni).

Which school has a better reputation. You will be judged by your medical school for many years. In the PhD side, this is more mentor specific (side note: make sure you have a few people that you are willing to work with and don't get too hung up with a single individual ... in 3-5 years, the person you want may have moved on to a different job)

2. The present:
Which school has the sorts of research mentors that you think you could click with. This is important as the PhD is a very difficult phase if you have a poor mentor (you can get lost to the sands of time or wander the plains of despair). I feel this is a mistake a lot of MSTPs make (ie. pursing the science at the expense of the mentor). Science is a fickle beast and what interests you now may not in a few years (or your project may deep-six), what will stick with you for that entire time is your PI.
Where do you want to live? Unless you have serious UG loans / financial issues, I would not worry as much about a few grand here or there (I would also say that relative to point 1, the net amount of money difference between the two schools would probably be ~10K which (hopefully) pales in comparison to your future earning potential). Honestly if you do not like where you are money will not solve this. There are many MSTPs who choose to live in bigger cities even though their stipends would not be proportionately increased to cost of living.

Similarly, if at one school you get out in 7 vs 8 or 8 vs 9 (and we assume that they are roughly equal in your future earnings), you are talking at least 150K difference in future salary for that 1 year (again stressing the PhD phase as very important).

The caution I would give you about pretty buildings is that is spending priorities. A school may have beautiful buildings (wonderful for the maintenance crew), but what should be more relevant to you is the student focus (how much money will they spend on your training/education ... like do PI's send their students to conferences/training w/ collaborators). Some schools spend all of their money on building infrastructure and not on the students (don't know anything about UMich personally) ... just make sure that you do your homework.

 

[harvman11]

harvman11 ... first thing U Wash and Wash U ... two different beasts

Haha just a typo... Though I would've really liked a U Wash interview at least, they've also got a really strong aging program.

Which school has a better reputation. You will be judged by your medical school for many years. In the PhD side, this is more mentor specific (side note: make sure you have a few people that you are willing to work with and don't get too hung up with a single individual ... in 3-5 years, the person you want may have moved on to a different job)

This is something that I was hoping to get a little bit of help with here. While Michigan is a legitimate top tier school, I'm curious how you all think Michigan's reputation compares to Wash U's with people who matter (program directors, etc.).

Where do you want to live? Unless you have serious UG loans / financial issues, I would not worry as much about a few grand here or there (I would also say that relative to point 1, the net amount of money difference between the two schools would probably be ~10K which (hopefully) pales in comparison to your future earning potential). Honestly if you do not like where you are money will not solve this. There are many MSTPs who choose to live in bigger cities even though their stipends would not be proportionately increased to cost of living.

Money really isn't much of an issue, at least not when comparing these two schools, but I figured I would list it since it is something I have been considering. You're right though, it won't make much of a difference here.

Making a numerical ranking system is probably what I'll end up doing, the biggest purpose of this post is to help see important areas I may have overlooked and how more objective eyes would compare them in areas like reputation/research/quality of life.

 

[Freak]

Well I am not a PD, but Wash U is ranked 3/4 in the US news Report and U Mich is ranked 11/12. I know that there are issues with these rankings, but this should give you a feeling (Top 5 vs. Top 15).

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...schools/top-medical-schools/research-rankings

I would say a more "objective" method would be to tally where their MSTP's have gone for the past 5 years or so (and see how prestigious the fields/schools are) as that is what you really care about ... although this passes the buck to judging residency programs ... go US News again

 

[harvman11]

yeah, that's sort of the problem I'm encountering right now, is that I don't know how much to make of the US News Rankings... How big of a difference is 3/4 to 11/12? I mean is the Wash U name really going to help me that much more than the Michigan name?

As for judging residency programs, that's pretty tough to do, especially when hospitals seem to vary widely in their quality from specialty to specialty... any links that could help out there?

 

[deleted292890]

Apparently residency programs rank UMich #5 for quality of applicants...wonder what WashU's is. Anyone know? If WashU is anywhere in the top 5, then I see no big difference between the two high quality schools.

I'm also choosing between the two schools but for me, it will probably come down to living in St. Louis vs. living in Ann Arbor. I've been living in Chicago for the past five years and love it here. Whichever one I choose to go to, I will have to get used to having access to fewer fun activities. But I'm not sure whether the college town or the small city is better for me. Can anyone make comparisons? Thanks.

 

[harvman11]

Where did you get the data about Michigan being 5th for residency programs? If that's true then maybe there really isn't much difference between the 2 schools to the people that matter...

I've also been trying to figure out which city I would prefer to live in, and I think a lot of it depends on what you want to do. I'm a huge sports fan, and I'm originally from a college town very similar to Ann Arbor so to me Michigan really has the edge there. I like the idea of a large undergrad institution being attached to my school. St. Louis probably does have more to do, but for me just about anything I care about in St. Louis I could also do in Detroit, which isn't that far away.

One thing St. Louis does have the advantage on (for me at least) is weather... hot and muggy in the summer isn't great, but it beats freezing in the winter. If you're into it, the bar scene around Wash U seemed pretty decent, and it seems like there's a good amount of high class cultural stuff to do in St. Louis (symphonies, etc.), that's just not my kind of thing personally.

 

[xcrunner01]

At my Michigan interview, the MD admissions office mentioned several times that they're in the top 5 schools for residency placements...I think it was also in some flier they gave us. Honestly, both schools are so highly ranked and respected that I really doubt going to one vs. the other is really going to impact your career much. Go to the school you feel is the best fit, as well as where you will be happiest due to a combination of whatever factors you mentioned are important to you- weather, football, campus town, research, etc.

 

[Musclemass]

Unless OP's intent was simply to boast, this seems to be a classic case of paralysis from analysis.

If both schools offer the environment and the research opportunities you're looking for, you're done. Since you can't try out each in advance, there's ultimately no way to know which is the better choice for you. And the likelihood is that the experience you have will be more a function of what you do than what the school offers. These two schools are probably more similar to than different from one another.

Turn off your laptop, discard any stats or website tidbits you're mentally clinging to, and use your heart to decide. Honestly, how could choosing to go to either of these schools be a mistake?

If you choose the wrong one, you'll never know it, because even if you find yourself unhappy with your choice, you'll never know if being at the other might have been even worse. Or if you have a great experience (and I hope you do), you'll never know if being at the other might have been even better.

 

[harvman11]

Thanks everyone for the responses... I didn't really want to affect what people were saying, but essentially I've been leaning towards Michigan (mostly for the research, but also the college town atmosphere), but was somewhat concerned about passing up Wash U and if that would have any negative effects. From what people are saying here, the reputation difference probably isn't that big of a deal, and my gut really tells me that I should be in Ann Arbor... I guess I've got my decision haha.

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, this is the best advice on this whole thread:

Unless OP's intent was simply to boast, this seems to be a classic case of paralysis from analysis.

If both schools offer the environment and the research opportunities you're looking for, you're done. Since you can't try out each in advance, there's ultimately no way to know which is the better choice for you. And the likelihood is that the experience you have will be more a function of what you do than what the school offers. These two schools are probably more similar to than different from one another.

Turn off your laptop, discard any stats or website tidbits you're mentally clinging to, and use your heart to decide. Honestly, how could choosing to go to either of these schools be a mistake?

If you choose the wrong one, you'll never know it, because even if you find yourself unhappy with your choice, you'll never know if being at the other might have been even worse. Or if you have a great experience (and I hope you do), you'll never know if being at the other might have been even better.

No way you can go wrong with either of those schools. Maybe a PD on Mars wouldn't know how great U Mich is, but here on Planet Earth, they all will.

Thanks everyone for the responses... I didn't really want to affect what people were saying, but essentially I've been leaning towards Michigan (mostly for the research, but also the college town atmosphere), but was somewhat concerned about passing up Wash U and if that would have any negative effects. From what people are saying here, the reputation difference probably isn't that big of a deal, and my gut really tells me that I should be in Ann Arbor... I guess I've got my decision haha.

Then you should definitely go to U Mich. Best of luck.