Minimum pay increase to be PIC/Manager Inpatient

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PRex825

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What would you take as the MINIMUM pay increase (percentage- all markets are a little different so dollar amounts are harder to relate) to become the pharmacy manager (promoted from staff pharmacist) of a hospital inpatient pharmacy?

For perspective, consider it a SMALL (micro-hospital, if you have ever heard of them- under 50 beds) inpatient pharmacy, so not some 1000 bed juggernaut hospital. Manager is the PIC with state board, serves on most hospital committees (infection control, Med-Exec, P & T, etc.), oversees scheduling/hiring/firing. Basically everything you can think of, the manager is responsible for in some way, including some staffing/order entry as well. Entire department would be less than 15 people.
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so I was director in an ultra-micro hospital (15 beds) - one full time tech, a handfull of prn people. The salary there was dictated by the fact it was a crappy place to live and no one wanted to take the job (18 directors in the past 20 years). It paid about 20 grand (20% at the time) more than the retail near by. But that was 15 years ago,

Total, a manger at my hosptial (400+ beds) generally gets about 10-15% more than staff and is bonus eligble- which is an additional 10-20k+ a year depending on the finanical status of the hospital. (with a supervisor between the two position). In your situation I would say you are looking at around a similar raise. Plus you are going to put in a lot more hours, especially as your described unless this is part of a larger health system than takes care of a lot of the clinical initiatives, etc.

Pharmacy is one of those professions where the managers simply don't make that much more than staff as compared to other jobs.
 
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Dred Pirate said:
so I was director in an ultra-micro hospital (15 beds) - one full time tech, a handfull of prn people. The salary there was dictated by the fact it was a crappy place to live and no one wanted to take the job (18 directors in the past 20 years). It paid about 20 grand (20% at the time) more than the retail near by. But that was 15 years ago,

Total, a manger at my hosptial (400+ beds) generally gets about 10-15% more than staff and is bonus eligble- which is an additional 10-20k+ a year depending on the finanical status of the hospital. (with a supervisor between the two position). In your situation I would say you are looking at around a similar raise. Plus you are going to put in a lot more hours, especially as your described unless this is part of a larger health system than takes care of a lot of the clinical initiatives, etc.

Pharmacy is one of those professions where the managers simply don't make that much more than staff as compared to other jobs.
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Agreed on the managers don't get paid enough- So to address a few points:

It is part of a larger health system, so a lot of policies/procedures are already in place and being shared

Total beds- 24

The facility itself is less than 2 years old

Area is very suburban, a nice place to live (rather affluent, comparatively).

What would your thoughts be on say, 8-10% extra?
 
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PRex825 said:
Agreed on the managers don't get paid enough- So to address a few points:

It is part of a larger health system, so a lot of policies/procedures are already in place and being shared

Total beds- 24

The facility itself is less than 2 years old

Area is very suburban, a nice place to live (rather affluent, comparatively).

What would your thoughts be on say, 8-10% extra?
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This is going to come down to some of the non-monetary things in my opinion.
My hospital is opening a similar place - maybe I know you - haha
I am guessing you are dealing more with the day to day running of the hospital - not developing a formulary, consult process, etc? Is this true?
10% sounds reasonable, things that would help me make the decisions.
1. Do you currently work there?
2. What is the staff like? drama? turnover?
3. What will your hours be? Will you be m-f bankers hours? Ironically if you get shift differential now, you won't anymore, and that will eat into the raise, but depending on your life situation, it may be better.
4. Do you get more PTO? In my system, managers get an extra week.
5. Is your bonus higher?
6. Are the IV rooms 797 compliant? Those things are a headache and I am glad I don't have to deal with it.
7. What do you aspire to do? Are you wanting to climb the ladder? or are you happy where you are at? Are you taking this bc upper mgmt wants you to, or do you actually want to? I took a position once because I was pressured into it, I hated it, I didn't last long, I went back to staffing, less hours, less headaches, much better work life balance.
 
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Dred Pirate said:
This is going to come down to some of the non-monetary things in my opinion.


My hospital is opening a similar place - maybe I know you - haha
I am guessing you are dealing more with the day to day running of the hospital - not developing a formulary, consult process, etc? Is this true?
10% sounds reasonable, things that would help me make the decisions.
1. Do you currently work there?-
2. What is the staff like? drama? turnover?
3. What will your hours be? Will you be m-f bankers hours? Ironically if you get shift differential now, you won't anymore, and that will eat into the raise, but depending on your life situation, it may be better.
4. Do you get more PTO? In my system, managers get an extra week.
5. Is your bonus higher?
6. Are the IV rooms 797 compliant? Those things are a headache and I am glad I don't have to deal with it.
7. What do you aspire to do? Are you wanting to climb the ladder? or are you happy where you are at? Are you taking this bc upper mgmt wants you to, or do you actually want to? I took a position once because I was pressured into it, I hated it, I didn't last long, I went back to staffing, less hours, less headaches, much better work life balance.

Haha perhaps we do:

The formulary, consult process, etc are already in place and seemingly good. The "set up" has been done.

1- Yes, since the day we opened the building.
2- Staff is good, technicians were actually selected by me
3- Hours are a wild card for now. The GOAL is M-F (maybe add every 4th weekend) There is no shift differential anyways. The pharmacy is closed overnight and we have an on-call system that isn't bad and only times getting called would be an absolute emergency (the departing manager was called one time in 18 months)
4-PTO is the same but generous enough (4 weeks per year as it is)
5- No bonus
6- IV rooms are good, fully certified, fully compliant
7- Management has never been my passion (although I never really pursued it to try). At a bigger institution I would want nothing to do with it. At a small place like this, it doesn't necessarily seem terrible.

Job security especially in this climate is very important (I have a family). The departing manager is leaving for a better opportunity (M-F 9-5 with an office) and because he felt pulled in too many directions with staffing/management. I would definitely be looking for more help or to adjust some hours so I can focus more on management stuff.
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Nope, no less than $15/hr.
 
Can nearly guarantee that isn't happening :-(
 
Dred Pirate said:
that is about 10% I am guessing (at least it would be for me)
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For our area/market, 10% raise would be going to high 60s (Midwest); I know from talking to colleagues at other institutions in the area that my staff salary is above average as it is... if that helps
 
15%. No one is going to take a job with significantly more responsibility and time requirements for a lateral compensation package.

Sounds like since it's such a small place you will be doing everything (staffing/clinical/manager/director roles).... taking out the trash and terminally cleaning the IV room each month too. Fun stuff.
 
PharmDBro2017 said:
15%. No one is going to take a job with significantly more responsibility and time requirements for a lateral compensation package.

Sounds like since it's such a small place you will be doing everything (staffing/clinical/manager/director roles).... taking out the trash and terminally cleaning the IV room each month too. Fun stuff.
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I already take out the trash and clean the IV room monthly as Staff Pharmacist haha. If upper management will not allow me to get more help (even another part time), then its definitely a No. But if I can get rid of the staffing part (and basically only fill in as the emergency PRN when it comes to staffing) that would take a huge load off... We have 2 techs (1 per shift) that do the daily IV room cleaning. On weekends, the pharmacist works alone (average census on weekends is less than 4 inpatients)- so we do some cleaning too (helps kill time)
 
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For me, it would be 10%, but I already know the job, company culture, support staff, etc...

To jump to another health system, I’d want 15-20%.

Known problematic health system - 25-33% +/- performance bonuses tied to metrics and a 2-3 year pay-or-play contract provision or equivalent.
 
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confettiflyer said:
For me, it would be 10%, but I already know the job, company culture, support staff, etc...

To jump to another health system, I’d want 15-20%.

Known problematic health system - 25-33% +/- performance bonuses tied to metrics and a 2-3 year pay-or-play contract provision or equivalent.
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Yea- like I said it is a known health system, I have been in my staff role there since the paint was literally still drying on the newly built walls, so I guess you can say I helped build it to where it is now, but definitely as a support person and not the one in charge.
 
PRex825 said:
Yea- like I said it is a known health system, I have been in my staff role there since the paint was literally still drying on the newly built walls, so I guess you can say I helped build it to where it is now, but definitely as a support person and not the one in charge.
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Oh I misread the complete question. For manager of that small operation in a known/good work environment, I would take minimum 5%/$10k, which pretty much reimburses me for my missed overtime potential as an hourly member of staff.

HOWEVER, my biggest concern would be rph sick call coverage with a staff/site that small. It would fall to you if ever in a pinch (on calls and people who are off can always say no). My biggest fear would be going on a two week vacation to Tahiti and not having backups considered/guaranteed. But like you said, you know your staff well enough to make that call.
 
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confettiflyer said:
Oh I misread the complete question. For manager of that small operation in a known/good work environment, I would take minimum 5%/$10k, which pretty much reimburses me for my missed overtime potential as an hourly member of staff.

HOWEVER, my biggest concern would be rph sick call coverage with a staff/site that small. It would fall to you if ever in a pinch (on calls and people who are off can always say no). My biggest fear would be going on a two week vacation to Tahiti and not having backups considered/guaranteed. But like you said, you know your staff well enough to make that call.
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Agreed completely. My departing manager was able to take a few vacations throughout his time and they got covered. In big pinches we have been able to use some of the pharmacists from the sister hospitals.

Accepting this position would definitely be dependent on the ability to increase staff and at least have one more FTE so I could focus on management. Right now it is Manager, FTE (me), and 2 part time people. I’d want it to be Manager, 2 FTE, and at least one of the part time/prn for adequate coverage.
 
PRex825 said:
What would you take as the MINIMUM pay increase (percentage- all markets are a little different so dollar amounts are harder to relate) to become the pharmacy manager (promoted from staff pharmacist) of a hospital inpatient pharmacy?

For perspective, consider it a SMALL (micro-hospital, if you have ever heard of them- under 50 beds) inpatient pharmacy, so not some 1000 bed juggernaut hospital. Manager is the PIC with state board, serves on most hospital committees (infection control, Med-Exec, P & T, etc.), oversees scheduling/hiring/firing. Basically everything you can think of, the manager is responsible for in some way, including some staffing/order entry as well. Entire department would be less than 15 people.
Click to expand...

For non-PIC Inpatient pharmacy manager/supervisor position, consider 10-15% pay increase

For PIC inpatient pharmacy admin/manager/director position, consider 15-20% pay increase (Ideal >20%)

Is the position hourly or salary?

Is the pay negotiable?
 
I am not inpatient or management but asking for salary bump (reasonable) AND getting 2nd FTE just seems like a lot to pull off during potential negotiations. I think HR would base the salary on the salary of the departing manager. Do you know what he was getting paid?
 
M0df said:
I am not inpatient or management but asking for salary bump (reasonable) AND getting 2nd FTE just seems like a lot to pull off during potential negotiations. I think HR would base the salary on the salary of the departing manager. Do you know what he was getting paid?
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+ 1 FTE does sound like a lot on the face of it, but I think the OP is cannibalizing what appears to be a 0.5 FTE and manager staffing requirements to make that happen.

I agree this probably won’t fly during position negotiations, but a good working relationship with whoever the manager would report to and some non-enforceable promises might have to suffice.

I also don’t know the finances of the hospital and the goodwill of the department to support a + 0.5 FTE
 
I’m in retail but I’ve thought about this a lot since my DL keeps bothering me about it and I gave into just going through the motions of the PMEL program. The plan was to put that on cv and reject the position once it was formally offered.

The more I think about it, the more I think there’s not a number they can realistically throw me to accept the position with all the extra BS on your shoulders. An extra 10-15k per year plus maybe a 10k bonus at best? Meh... I’d probably reject 25k/yr. They would have to give me insta-4 weeks paid vacation + some type of retirement benefit for me to consider it.

I could use all that lost time from stress and lack of sleep to invest in myself, sanity, side hustle or whatever and make more capital than that in the long run. More importantly, stay semi-happy and not hate life.
 
Transformer said:
For non-PIC Inpatient pharmacy manager/supervisor position, consider 10-15% pay increase

For PIC inpatient pharmacy admin/manager/director position, consider 15-20% pay increase (Ideal >20%)

Is the position hourly or salary?

Is the pay negotiable?
Click to expand...

it’s a salary position, not sure about negotiation yet. I haven’t been officially offered it, but a meeting with the higher ups will take place later this week
 
M0df said:
I am not inpatient or management but asking for salary bump (reasonable) AND getting 2nd FTE just seems like a lot to pull off during potential negotiations. I think HR would base the salary on the salary of the departing manager. Do you know what he was getting paid?
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From talking to him, it sounds like he made about 8% more than my staff salary. Asking for the 2nd FTE should not be unreasonable based on projected budgets for next year (shared with me by departing manager) and the fact that our upper management has mentioned in the past that "managers of departments should not really staff except in emergencies"
 
My point is that if you actually want the job then the comparison will be you vs departing manager vs an outside candidate. For you, it sounds reasonable to ask for specific staffing increase because you have access to the budget but an outside candidate might not have such information. That candidate would not be asking for that FTE at the start.
 
M0df said:
My point is that if you actually want the job then the comparison will be you vs departing manager vs an outside candidate. For you, it sounds reasonable to ask for specific staffing increase because you have access to the budget but an outside candidate might not have such information. That candidate would not be asking for that FTE at the start.
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That's a fair point
 
I'm at a hospital of similar size (a little more beds than you), but ADC of ~24 only gives me hours in the budget for me, 1 full time technician, and ~16-20 hours of play room.

I know my employer is strict on budgeting, but I doubt they give you another FTE.
 
PharmDBro2017 said:
I'm at a hospital of similar size (a little more beds than you), but ADC of ~24 only gives me hours in the budget for me, 1 full time technician, and ~16-20 hours of play room.

I know my employer is strict on budgeting, but I doubt they give you another FTE.
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Do you act as the manager/PIC then? Or is there another person above you overseeing and you are the only staff pharmacist?
 
PRex825 said:
Do you act as the manager/PIC then? Or is there another person above you overseeing and you are the only staff pharmacist?
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DOP, and only fulltime pharmacist. CEO is above me.
 
SITUATION UPDATE:

So based on conversations with the outgoing manager (thankfully we have a great relationship and he has been keeping me in the loop with everything), I know the following:

I will have a meeting with the CNO/CEO on Friday regarding this position.

The likelihood of an additional FTE is slim/none (as everybody predicted), however the addition of a 0.4 FTE (2 days per week) is on the table and being discussed amongst upper management.
*** This leaves our Predicted Staffing as such:
1 FTE Manager (me?), 1 FTE RPh,
1 0.6 FTE RPh (only works 3 days a week Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday, and will likely refuse to change her schedule at all)
2 0.4 FTE (2 days per week- variable availability)
2 FTE Technicians (if they have to call off or anything show just goes on without them)

Day to day operations includes 2 shifts M-F, 1 shift on Sat/Sun

Manager required to staff shifts that have no coverage (I would estimate that this will be about 2 shifts per week). If I were manager I would likely continue to take a weekend a month (as our outgoing manager has), as weekends are typically very slow and I would have a lot of "quiet time" to hopefully get administrative things done.

The expected pay increase is 8%, likely not more

Responsible to serve on 3 committees that meet once monthly, plus name on basically everything.

... Lots to think about. Bear in mind the staffing part is not particularly challenging or super busy, but still just something extra to be responsible for on the days that manager would have to staff.
 
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Nice, I have a good feeling about this and that concession for +0.4 FTE is a win in my book.
 
Dred Pirate said:
graduate 15 years ago- take a job at a hospital, get best performace reviews possible, work night shift...
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nice :) but is my math wrong? $15 an hour increase is more than 10% right? lol
 
Deja said:
nice :) but is my math wrong? $15 an hour increase is more than 10% right? lol
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it was a trough estimate - but ~15k is shift dif that I would loose- so if I ever went back to a day sift mgmt job I would need a big raise haha
 
Yeah. I estimate that if I moved to day shift from 2nd shift, I'd lose approximately ~8k from shift diff, 10k from lost overtime, and I'd be working an additional 10 hours every 2 weeks.

I'd need way more than 10% to change to management to make up for all that.
 
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TheBlaah said:
Yeah. I estimate that if I moved to day shift from 2nd shift, I'd lose approximately ~8k from shift diff, 10k from lost overtime, and I'd be working an additional 10 hours every 2 weeks.

I'd need way more than 10% to change to management to make up for all that.
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Not to mention if you get a citation for the pharmacy, it's your license, not your staff. For a puny 10% increase, you can be a scapegoat.
 
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Management / leadership is for pharmacists that want to get out of pharmacy but have no other desirable skills in the marketplace to make a six-figure income. I would know, I am one.

Instead of doing clinical counseling and whatever else I get to make the schedule, deal with employee drama, run a residency program, recruit and hire new employees, be a cheerleader for the department, make and adjust workflow, and fix and/or escalate IT problems. My pharmacy skills now solely consist of order verification coverage for PTO coverage. So I still know how to check Lexi-Comp and check a prescription, I guess.

After OT, shift differential and everything else, maybe I make $5k more than a staff pharmacist. But I don't have to do any counseling. So it is what it is.

Just have to make it 10 more years and our family will be set and I can work at a big box store and make the $15/hr minimum wage.
 
awval999 said:
Management / leadership is for pharmacists that want to get out of pharmacy but have no other desirable skills in the marketplace to make a six-figure income. I would know, I am one.

Instead of doing clinical counseling and whatever else I get to make the schedule, deal with employee drama, run a residency program, recruit and hire new employees, be a cheerleader for the department, make and adjust workflow, and fix and/or escalate IT problems. My pharmacy skills now solely consist of order verification coverage for PTO coverage. So I still know how to check Lexi-Comp and check a prescription, I guess.

After OT, shift differential and everything else, maybe I make $5k more than a staff pharmacist. But I don't have to do any counseling. So it is what it is.

Just have to make it 10 more years and our family will be set and I can work at a big box store and make the $15/hr minimum wage.
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Do you believe that entering management/leadership (inpatient) therefore makes somebody a less desirable candidate down the road for an inpatient staff position? Say- I accept management, learn I hate it after a year, and decide to apply for a staffing position elsewhere (I would maintain BCPS- you know, that "I have clinical knowledge" thing you can pay for)… am I now behind the 8 ball because of that?
 
PRex825 said:
Do you believe that entering management/leadership (inpatient) therefore makes somebody a less desirable candidate down the road for an inpatient staff position? Say- I accept management, learn I hate it after a year, and decide to apply for a staffing position elsewhere (I would maintain BCPS- you know, that "I have clinical knowledge" thing you can pay for)… am I now behind the 8 ball because of that?
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Not at all. Just depends on how you come off on the interview.

And of course, "maintain" that BCPS indefinitely with the annual fees. Another nice checkmark to have!
 
UPDATE 2.0

Spoke with CNO (second highest up in our hierarchy) yesterday. We had a good conversation. She shares and understands all of my concerns about splitting staffing + management, concern about the majorly increased liability/responsibility, etc. I am unquestionably the first choice to step into the manager role, since it simply just makes the most sense logistically and operationally (I have been here since day 1), in addition to having a good relationship with pretty much the entire hospital (its a small place, everybody knows everybody).

Operationally, the pharmacy department here is notoriously self-sufficient. Upper management even acknowledged that "we barely ever hear from you guys... that's a good thing". So they would theoretically continue to stay out of my hair unless I needed something, or royally messed something up.

I was told that the plan would be (presuming that I take the management position) to post my replacement (Staff RPH, 40 hrs/week) AND a 0.4 FTE (2 days per week- this would be an added employee from before) at the exact same time. The result would be getting me out of staffing 4 days per week (so staff 1 day per week, 4 days per week "management" stuff). Eventual goal (not likely until both new people are fully trained and self-sufficient) to be M-F, normal business hours, no weekends, staff just one day per week and only pickup when absolutely no other coverage is available). This would put our final staff roster as:
2 FTE Technicians
1 FTE Pharmacy manager (Staffing only 1 day per week)
1 FTE Staff pharmacist
0.6 FTE Staff pharmacist
0.4 FTE Staff pharmacist (newly added)
0.2 FTE Staff pharmacist (currently works 1 weekend day per week)

As far as pay goes, that was not able to be discussed yet because that is not in the CNOs control. I am supposed to meet with the COO (highest up here) on Monday and will likely find that out then. My expectation is to be offered an 8% increase (what the departing manager made), with my hopes/goal to get 10%+.

Anybody's thoughts? Given the premise of M-F normal business hours (we never had shift-diff to begin with here so I am not losing anything there), and the pay increase (slight, but still)… I am thinking its worth a shot at least...
 
PRex825 said:
Do you believe that entering management/leadership (inpatient) therefore makes somebody a less desirable candidate down the road for an inpatient staff position? Say- I accept management, learn I hate it after a year, and decide to apply for a staffing position elsewhere (I would maintain BCPS- you know, that "I have clinical knowledge" thing you can pay for)… am I now behind the 8 ball because of that?
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Management candidates in institutional pharmacy are usually a unidirectional promotion. That's not to say that you can't go from being a Director of a small hospital like yours to a clinical supervisor at a larger hospital, but it is very, very unlikely that you would be considered for a nonsupervisory position again. The only chance you get to escape is to quit after a year, but if you are in the position for quite a while, you do get blackballed for pure staffing positions as you know too much about the operations sorts of problems and if a manager is reasonably intelligent knows better than to hire someone that can effectively undermine authority.

That said, do not take staffing as a retreat into account when promoting. Promote to this job on its merits. You will perform better if you do not believe that you have anywhere else to go but through the challenge. This is a place where you do not get to hedge your bets, you must a career choice.

@Saiyo has it right for himself based on his particular circumstances (I would do exactly the same in his shoes if I worked at his place.) You only enter management if you think you can get something out of it. The cost for power is a bit high.

You need to think about one other problem. There is no way that any hospital budget is going to go up in the next year or two due to the present circumstances. You need to think about how you manage if who you have is the only people you will have (not even getting a backfill into the slot that you will leave upon taking the Director). If you can, you might want to talk to the Director who left and ask yourself whether or not you think that you see something that the predecessor does not. Many times, you will know something coming from the staff ranks that management does not. But be sure you know who you are going to have to work with, that CNO and CFO could be lying through their teeth and you get suckered into a losing situation.

Here's a start to negotiations. You ask for OT immediately since you're going to have to cover both Director and Staff positions due to you leaving the staff. Take the 8% only on condition that you get authorization to immediately backfill your slot, or its going to be a miserable crash course. That's your first test of upper management, your replacement needs to be authorized for hire as condition for your promotion. If you can't convince them of that, then I'd have serious reservations about taking the position.
 
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@lord999

Definitely a thorough response with good insight- much appreciated. The backfilling of my staffing position has been guaranteed, this I know for sure. I have been in contact with our only PRN pharmacist (who does not get any hours currently but is great... they work full time at another hospital currently) and they would be very interested in taking my staff spot--- which would mean almost zero training needed on the basics, just getting them up to snuff on a few new processes... this would be pure gold from a new manager standpoint. I would not get OT (as in time and a half) for staffing extra (working doubles or whatever to cover missing shifts) but I would be compensated regular time (so 88 hours instead of 80, etc), so I think that might be the best I would get.
 
I have a hard time believing a 24 bed facility is giving you a FT phamacist, FT tech, and 0.4 FTE in addition to that, but I hope for your sake it is true.
 
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PharmDBro2017 said:
I have a hard time believing a 24 bed facility is giving you a FT phamacist, FT tech, and 0.4 FTE in addition to that, but I hope for your sake it is true.
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That's how we already have it set up. CURRENT Staffing (before my departing manager even has his last day) is:

2 40 hour/week FTE pharmacists (Manager + Myself)
1 0.6 FTE pharmacist (3 days per week)
1 0 .2 FTE pharmacist (1 day per week)
2 40 hour/week FTE technicians

The only new ADDED staff would be the 0.4 FTE pharmacist
 
PRex825 said:
That's how we already have it set up. CURRENT Staffing (before my departing manager even has his last day) is:

2 40 hour/week FTE pharmacists (Manager + Myself)
1 0.6 FTE pharmacist (3 days per week)
1 0 .2 FTE pharmacist (1 day per week)
2 40 hour/week FTE technicians

The only new ADDED staff would be the 0.4 FTE pharmacist
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How many ICU beds?

I can't see how you guys manage to have any work to do with that amount of staff on hand. That must be the chillest job ever?
 
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PharmDBro2017 said:
How many ICU beds?

I can't see how you guys manage to have any work to do with that amount of staff on hand. That must be the chillest job ever?
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0 ICU beds haha. Everything is set up for Tele but we really don't take any critical patients. Its really a glorified ambulatory surgery center that admits a few medical patients and has some overnight stays postoperatively. Todays census is 5. It is pretty chill, not gonna lie.
 
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