Minority but adopted...

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I'm hispanic but I was adopted. If you look at my record you will see that I'm not at all disadvantaged. I went to a private school and such. I'm very privilaged and grateful for that.

I'm wondering if being adopted changes the affirmative action advantaged.

Yes, I'm being selfish; I know that. However, medical school admission is hard, and I don't and won't feel quilty for trying to take any advantage I can get.

 

[Lannister]

From what I've heard, if you are minority but have little to no involvement in that community (ie. a person who identifies as Latino but doesn't speak Spanish), it won't really give you any advantage.

 

[bonnie12]

Which Latino community? How involved are you in the community?

 

[Internationalinterest]

The guy that replied above is wrong IMO. Any URM will give you the same advantage as it fulfills the concept that you will patients that are of the same ethnicity/race as you will trust you more. It is that simple, medical schools are trying to graduate a diverse group of doctors, which can be difficult with the lack of good URM they get with good test scores.

 

[Ismet]

The guy that replied above is wrong IMO. Any URM will give you the same advantage as it fulfills the concept that you will patients that are of the same ethnicity/race as you will trust you more. It is that simple, medical schools are trying to graduate a diverse group of doctors, which can be difficult with the lack of good URM they get with good test scores.

Nah @Lannister is pretty much right. If you have zero ties to the community, especially for hispanics, it's not going to be that much of an advantage. The "trust" you speak of is based more in having the same background/experiences, not necessarily from having the same color of skin. As a Hispanic person myself, I'd say that a Spanish-speaking patient would likely be more comfortable with a Spanish-speaking physician who comes from a similar culture than a non-Spanish-speaking Hispanic-looking physician who has no idea of the culture.

Maybe it varies by school/adcom, but there are certainly places that will look for involvement in that URM community.

 

[allantois]

Coming from an immigrant background myself and having many friends of Hispanic heritage, I would like to say that most children of immigrants born in the US have very little understanding of their "native" culture, and rarely do they speak their language.

In my opinion, being URM and coming from a multicultural background are two separate advantages, and if as URM you happen to know your culture/language that is cherrie on top of the pie.

 

[Internationalinterest]

Nah @Lannister is pretty much right. If you have zero ties to the community, especially for hispanics, it's not going to be that much of an advantage. The "trust" you speak of is based more in having the same background/experiences, not necessarily from having the same color of skin. As a Hispanic person myself, I'd say that a Spanish-speaking patient would likely be more comfortable with a Spanish-speaking physician who comes from a similar culture than a non-Spanish-speaking Hispanic-looking physician who has no idea of the culture.

I mean, this is probably going to be one of those things where an adcom might say something different in public than behind closed doors... it definitely looks better for the school if they can claim they have a larger percentage of minorities. There is no way it is not a plus to be of Hispanic ethnicity. And I think you also doubt the power of the human psychology of trusting someone with the same skin color as you.

 

[URMD]

I mean, this is probably going to be one of those things where an adcom might say something different in public than behind closed doors... it definitely looks better for the school if they can claim they have a larger percentage of minorities. There is no way it is not a plus to be of Hispanic ethnicity. And I think you also doubt the power of the human psychology of trusting someone with the same skin color as you

I respectfully Disagree.
As a URM, having the same color skin as someone does not give me a sense of trust with another person.
It is the similarity in culture and ethnic background that gives me comfort in relating to people of similar URM status.
In fact, it can be quite jarring to interact with "westernized" URMs as you expect them to have a certain culture based on their skin color and when they don't one can quickly become incredulous with that fact.

This is the reason adcoms prioritize roots and community involvement as part of being a URM. In fact, if you identify as URM but it is clear during interviews you have no or few ties to that background, I feel that adcoms will see that you are trying to use the status to get ahead instead of embracing what it is really there for. Not a good look imo.

I would love for an adcom to chime in on this issue

 

[Internationalinterest]

I respectfully Disagree.
This is the reason adcoms prioritize roots and community involvement as part of being a URM. In fact, if you identify as URM but it is clear during interviews you have no or few ties to that background, I feel that adcoms will see that you are trying to use the status to get ahead instead of embracing what it is really there for. Not a good look imo.

This is too funny, what do you want the hispanic westernized kid to put on his app? That he is white? That is ridiculous, I am not saying that anyone should lie about what they identify or anything like that. I am saying that they will check the appropriate bubbles, never mention any ties to any latin american country in essays or interview, and they will probably have better chances to get in. That is just the way it is. No school will look at a black guy and say "You didn't grow up in the ghetto or specifically help black people, so we are going to treat you as if you are white".

Also, while you may feel like you do not identify/trust a same race doctor without the culture, I know for pretty much a fact that the same is not true for everyone. I have shadowed a 3rd generation indian doctor that has literally nothing to do with india, and half his patient population is indian. When you look at certain pcp doctors you will notice very similar trends in their patient pop that correlates with their race, not necessarily their culture.

 

[Ismet]

This is too funny, what do you want the hispanic westernized kid to put on his app? That he is white? That is ridiculous, I am not saying that anyone should lie about what they identify or anything like that. I am saying that they will check the appropriate bubbles, never mention any ties to any latin american country in essays or interview, and they will probably have better chances to get in. That is just the way it is. No school will look at a black guy and say "You didn't grow up in the ghetto or specifically help black people, so we are going to treat you as if you are white".

Also, while you may feel like you do not identify/trust a same race doctor without the culture, I know for pretty much a fact that the same is not true for everyone. I have shadowed a 3rd generation indian doctor that has literally nothing to do with india, and half his patient population is indian. When you look at certain pcp doctors you will notice very similar trends in their patient pop that correlates with their race, not necessarily their culture.

Hispanics are white. Unless they are Afro-Caribbean or clearly a different race. Hispanic/Latino is an ethnicity, not a race.

 

[Internationalinterest]

Ok just looked up the definitions and I agree that I was incorrect in what I thought was going on. However, that doesn't change the fact that OP would check the hispanic box if he is from a latin or spanish speaking country right? In my opinion the moment that box is checked you receive the benefits that come with being URM, with or without and URM extracurricular involvement or ties.

 

[URMD]

This is too funny, what do you want the hispanic westernized kid to put on his app? That he is white? That is ridiculous, I am not saying that anyone should lie about what they identify or anything like that. I am saying that they will check the appropriate bubbles, never mention any ties to any latin american country in essays or interview, and they will probably have better chances to get in. That is just the way it is. No school will look at a black guy and say "You didn't grow up in the ghetto or specifically help black people, so we are going to treat you as if you are white".

Also, while you may feel like you do not identify/trust a same race doctor without the culture, I know for pretty much a fact that the same is not true for everyone. I have shadowed a 3rd generation indian doctor that has literally nothing to do with india, and half his patient population is indian. When you look at certain pcp doctors you will notice very similar trends in their patient pop that correlates with their race, not necessarily their culture.

To be more specific, the bolded is what I disagree with. Without significant ties to your ethnicity and culture, simply having URM status will not give you better chances to get into medical school.
You can check the box. All well and good. But the idea that simply checking the box gives you an advantage is what i disagree with. again, respecfully.

I don't believe generation has anything to do with it. You may have shadowed that doctor but you don't know what is life his like when he gets home. there are 5th generations who are firmly entrenched in their culture, and 5th generations that are not.

 

[Internationalinterest]

This is where I disagree. The reason why being URM is such a controversial topic is because you get something extra for doing nothing. If being URM only meant something because you helped the URM community no one would get pissed off, because anyone has the opportunity to help the URM community. The reason people dislike the URM effect is BECAUSE it is getting something for nothing. Simply checking a box increases your chances significantly.

 

[Wordead]

I'm hispanic but I was adopted. If you look at my record you will see that I'm not at all disadvantaged. I went to a private school and such. I'm very privilaged and grateful for that.

I'm wondering if being adopted changes the affirmative action advantaged.

Yes, I'm being selfish; I know that. However, medical school admission is hard, and I don't and won't feel quilty for trying to take any advantage I can get.

Dont hate the playa, hate the game. Take advantage of your race and mark it down.

The posters being like oh you aren't involved in the URM community....come on guys. You think the majority of URMs in med school grew up in the projects or in predominantly URM neighborhoods? Like affirmative action is just helping these kids out of the hood into med school? Dont be so naive.

And you think adcoms even have enough cultural competence to pick out who truly is and is not part of the hispanic community? Even more laughable.

 

[URMD]

I believe that the people who think the topic is controversial in their minds is because they side with your side of thinking - a free leg up.
The people who understand what URM truly means to adcoms don't share the same controversiality form what i have seen.

 

[Internationalinterest]

Dude you are talking out of your ass, you are not an adcom. Hell, for all I know, I am wrong as well. But like the other guy said, how the hell do you even know how many ties someone has to their latin american community? Not everyone will try to milk it in essays and personal statements...

 

[URMD]

Dont hate the playa, hate the game. Take advantage of your race and mark it down.

The posters being like oh you aren't involved in the URM community....come on guys. You think the majority of URMs in med school grew up in the projects or in predominantly URM neighborhoods? Like affirmative action is just helping these kids out of the hood into med school? Dont be so naive.

And you think adcoms even have enough cultural competence to pick out who truly is and is not part of the hispanic community? Even more laughable.

That's a misrepresentation of what being involved means. I am a URM and i believe that I enjoyed URM benefits however I am from a middle class backgrounud and I have lived in predominantly white neighbourhoods for a large portion of my life. However I showed interest in my ethnicity through various ECs and my personal statement. Of all the interviews I went to most of them were with faculty in the schools office of diversity, so I'm fairly sure they would have a good idea of picking out the wheat from the chaff.

You don't have to be all ghetto and the like to show ethnicity interest theres so many ways

 

[Internationalinterest]

What I am saying is that being URM and participating in URM activities/extracurricular are two separate factors that will improve your app. Either would help your app individually, and together they may even be better than the sum of their parts.

 

[URMD]

Dude you are talking out of your ass, you are not an adcom. Hell, for all I know, I am wrong as well. But like the other guy said, how the hell do you even know how many ties someone has to their latin american community? Not everyone will try to milk it in essays and personal statements...

Hey man im trying to be respectful, can you at least show me the same? I'm only talking based on my experience and what i've seen based on SDN, not out of my ass. Certainly I could be wrong. And certainly im not an adcom, which is why i said in my previous posts that I would love to hear an adcoms perspective.

We disagree, thats fine. Its just a discussion, no need to degenerate into name calling and the like

 

[URMD]

What I am saying is that being URM and participating in URM activities/extracurricular are two separate factors that will improve your app. Either would help your app individually, and together they may even be better than the sum of their parts.

I get that, and what I'm saying is that I only agree in the activities/extracurricular department. not the box check department. Fine. lets leave it at that then.

 

[Wordead]

That's a misrepresentation of what being involved means. I am a URM and i believe that I enjoyed URM benefits however I am from a middle class backgrounud and I have lived in predominantly white neighbourhoods for a large portion of my life. However I showed interest in my ethnicity through various ECs and my personal statement. Of all the interviews I went to most of them were with faculty in the schools office of diversity, so I'm fairly sure they would have a good idea of picking out the wheat from the chaff.

You don't have to be all ghetto and the link to show ethnicity interest theres so many ways

Yeah, that's not surprising, most of the URMs I've met in med school fit the same description.

I think you unfortunately are way, way, way overestimating their ability to sort out (or even give three ****s about) "involvement" in the community. I would guess, just based on the admins I've met, that the vast majority of people involved in the admissions process are extremely ignorant of black/latino/whatever culture if it came down to specifics.

 

[Internationalinterest]

way overestimating their ability to sort out (or even give three ****s about)

Bingo

 

[URMD]

Yeah, that's not surprising, most of the URMs I've met in med school fit the same description.

I think you unfortunately are way, way, way overestimating their ability to sort out (or even give three ****s about) "involvement" in the community. I would guess, just based on the admins I've met, that the vast majority of people involved in the admissions process are extremely ignorant of black/latino/whatever culture if it came down to specifics.

Even those faculty in the office of diversity conducting interviews on prospective students?

 

[Internationalinterest]

Dude anyone in the office of diversity is simply going to be ecstatic that they have an URM with decent stats that they can accept.

 

[Wordead]

Even those faculty in the office of diversity conducting interviews on prospective students?

I feel like I'm telling you santa claus isn't real

I'm sure there are some faculty that are able to pick it out....but there will be a vast majority that won't and thus OP will have an easier time getting into med school even if she knows about as much about her culture as I do.

 

[Ismet]

Dude anyone in the office of diversity is simply going to be ecstatic that they have an URM with decent stats that they can accept.

Do you really think URMs with good stats are that few and far between? They're not. We see plenty of URMs with great stats/ECs who don't need to rely on the "URM advantage."

And yes, community ties are discussed, in interviews as well as the adcom. I had it brought up on multiple interviews, as I am an upper-middle-class, white Hispanic. I had an interviewer ask me if I had ever identified myself as Hispanic prior to applying to medical school, and proceed to ask me about my culture and ties to my family's ethnic community.

Bottom line is, yes OP can check that box. But if you do, be prepared for questions about it.

 

[URMD]

I feel like I'm telling you santa claus isn't real

I'm sure there are some faculty that are able to pick it out....but there will be a vast majority that won't and thus OP will have an easier time getting into med school even if she knows about as much about her culture as I do.

If you are correct and that is truly the case...it is unfortunate. Just means that the whole affirmative action URM thing is not doing what it was designed to do. Quite sad. Those doctors may end up being just as disconnected as regular white folk from their "same ethnicity" patients, I'm not sure it will really help. I may have to switch sides on this debate.

But before I do I'd like to hear what adcoms have to say @hushcom @Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn

 

[Internationalinterest]

Why do you think URM have lower stats for acceptances? Schools are just passing over thos 4.0/45 URMs for fun? No, there are significantly less URM applying with significantly lower test scores and GPAs. Are there URMs out there with excellent scores? Ofcourse! But the averages speak for themeselves.

What questions will they ask him?

Interviewer: It says here you are of hispanic ethnicity.
Applicant: Yes.
Interviewer: Well are you?
Applicant: Yes.
Interviewer: Why do you feel you are?
Applicant: My Grandmother/Grandfather/Whatever was born in a hispanic country.
Interviewer: OK cool.

 

[Wordead]

If you are correct and that is truly the case...it is unfortunate. Just means that the whole affirmative action URM thing is not doing what it was designed to do. Quite sad. Those doctors may end up being just as disconnected as regular white folk from their "same ethnicity" patients, I'm not sure it will really help. I may have to switch sides on this debate.

But before I do I'd like to hear what adcoms have to say @hushcom @Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn

It's just my opinion from my experience. Ismet seems to have more faith in the process. I just see that the vast majority of URMs I've met are from middle to upper class families in wealthy areas with great schools, certainly better than anything I had growing up. They have connections to their heritage, of course, but it's not......strong.

 

[URMD]

Why do you think URM have lower stats for acceptances? Schools are just passing over thos 4.0/45 URMs for fun? No, there are significantly less URM applying with significantly lower test scores and GPAs. Are there URMs out there with excellent scores? Ofcourse! But the averages speak for themeselves.

What questions will they ask him?

Interviewer: It says here you are of hispanic ethnicity.
Applicant: Yes.
Interviewer: Well are you?
Applicant: Yes.
Interviewer: Why do you feel you are?
Applicant: My Grandmother/Grandfather/Whatever was born in a hispanic country.
Interviewer: OK cool.

Uhh, for some perspective some questions I was asked:

How do you feel your ethnicity has adapted to the western world?
Do you feel that your ethnicity has improved or reduced from generations in the western world? How?
How would you improve the disparities in socioeconomic status between your ethnicities and others?
How do you feel your peers of similar ethnicity have adapted to their new social surroundings?

There are alot more but you get the jist. They're not questions you can answer on the spot you have had to have thought about them at least once before in discussions during your lifetime

 

[URMD]

It's just my opinion from my experience. Ismet seems to have more faith in the process. I just see that the vast majority of URMs I've met are from middle to upper class families in wealthy areas with great schools, certainly better than anything I had growing up. They have connections to their heritage, of course, but it's not......strong.

Yeah I see your point, but I just want to make sure for the OP and others reading this thread - socioeconomic status and ties to your ethnicity are seperate things!
Again, you don't have to have grown up in the ghetto to have 'ties to your ethnicity'. You can be very rich and still have very strong ties! It is your culture.
I'm sure you knew that but I just wanted to clearly state it for everyone else reading

 

[Ismet]

It's just my opinion from my experience. Ismet seems to have more faith in the process. I just see that the vast majority of URMs I've met are from middle to upper class families in wealthy areas with great schools, certainly better than anything I had growing up. They have connections to their heritage, of course, but it's not......strong.

I only have experience with how one school handles things so that's what I'm speaking from. In addition to a couple interviews where I was grilled about my heritage for apparently coming off as gaming the system (my specific ethnicity is actually ORM so I'm not sure why that was the case). But if I were OP I would be concerned about possibly getting those questions.

LizzyM has said in the past that there are schools that will look at community involvement (I.e. If you are 1/4 hispanic, don't speak Spanish and have no ties to the community, what's the point?). I'm sure YMMV.

 

[Wordead]

Yeah I see your point, but I just want to make sure for the OP and others reading this thread - socioeconomic status and ties to your ethnicity are seperate things!
Again, you don't have to have grown up in the ghetto to have 'ties to your ethnicity'. You can be very rich and still have very strong ties! It is your culture.
I'm sure you knew that but I just wanted to clearly state it for everyone else reading

Right, I think I did imply that SES was tied to ethnicity, which obviously isnt true.

 

[allantois]

Uhh, for some perspective some questions I was asked:

How do you feel your ethnicity has adapted to the western world?
Do you feel that your ethnicity has improved or reduced from generations in the western world? How?
How would you improve the disparities in socioeconomic status between your ethnicities and others?
How do you feel your peers of similar ethnicity have adapted to their new social surroundings?

There are alot more but you get the jist. They're not questions you can answer on the spot you have had to have thought about them at least once before in discussions during your lifetime

I think the other party is arguing that if you are URM, you are automatically given an advantage in admissions, regardless of how you would answer those questions. That is what affirmative action is in a nutshell and AAMC racial data seems to support it. There are certain states that prohibit affirmative action, and perhaps you would find schools who would grill you on your URM status in those states.

I would like to make a distinction that asking a black URM those questions would be pure nonsense, as they are of American culture and speak English. So I guess the situation is more trickier with Hispanics.

Oh, and since when South America divided from the rest of the western world?

 

[URMD]

I think the other party is arguing that if you are URM, you are automatically given an advantage in admissions, regardless of how you would answer those questions. That is what affirmative action is in a nutshell and AAMC racial data seems to support it. There are certain states that prohibit affirmative action, and perhaps you would find schools who would grill you on your URM status in those states.

I didn't know the part about states prohibiting affirmative action, indeed it would make sense for the grilling to increase there and it may help to shed some light on what exactly affirmative action is. I was under the impression it was the whole community involvement bit. But if the term is used solely for the "checkbox" notion that's different for me.

I would like to make a distinction that asking a black URM those questions would be pure nonsense, as they are of American culture and speak English. So I guess the situation is more trickier with Hispanics.

Also make sure that when you are talking about blacks you make the distinction between African american and just African. With African american those questions are nonsense yes, but with Africans they still work.

Oh, and since when South America divided from the rest of the western world?

I'm not sure what you meant by this, sorry.

 

[LizzyM]

I think the other party is arguing that if you are URM, you are automatically given an advantage in admissions, regardless of how you would answer those questions. That is what affirmative action is in a nutshell and AAMC racial data seems to support it. There are certain states that prohibit affirmative action, and perhaps you would find schools who would grill you on your URM status in those states.

I would like to make a distinction that asking a black URM those questions would be pure nonsense, as they are of American culture and speak English. So I guess the situation is more trickier with Hispanics.

Oh, and since when South America divided from the rest of the western world?

I do agree that asking those questions would be pure nonsense but it is also nonsense to suggest that all black applicants are of American culture no different than those from white culture.

As for the OP. Check the ethnicity box. Maybe the place of birth is a Hispanic country or a city in the US with a large Hispanic community. but maybe not. Also, as an adoptee to a non-Hispanic family, you have a non-Hispanic name as do your parents and you may have grown up in a very non-Hispanic area. Perhaps you don't speak Spanish. There may be nothing in your name and language skills that would tell a prospective patient, "this doctor is someone who will understand what I'm talking about regarding my diet, etc"

In my experience, checking a box but having nothing but DNA in common with others who self-identify in the same way will not get you a leg up. If your application is among the top 47% of non-URM, you 'll get offers, otherwise, you may be out of luck.

Let me turn this around. How should adcoms address an applicant who was adopted from Korea but raised by a Hispanic mother and a white father in a city on the Mexican border?

Frankly, I think that one is best off using the secondary questions about diversity to address these issues. I recall one applicant who was born in Central America of white parents who were missionaries. He grew up speaking Spanish but he self-identified as white and wrote about his cross-cultural experience. Many times it is more about experiences and what one brings to the table in terms of a fund of knowledge about culture than DNA.

 

[gettheleadout]

Uhh, for some perspective some questions I was asked:

How do you feel your ethnicity has adapted to the western world?
Do you feel that your ethnicity has improved or reduced from generations in the western world? How?
How would you improve the disparities in socioeconomic status between your ethnicities and others?
How do you feel your peers of similar ethnicity have adapted to their new social surroundings?

There are alot more but you get the jist. They're not questions you can answer on the spot you have had to have thought about them at least once before in discussions during your lifetime

This question makes me uncomfortable.

 

[Goro]

Concur. With URM status, we'll expect you to walk the walk, as well as talk the talk.

And as noted, not all Hispanics are URM.

Nah @Lannister is pretty much right. If you have zero ties to the community, especially for hispanics, it's not going to be that much of an advantage. The "trust" you speak of is based more in having the same background/experiences, not necessarily from having the same color of skin. As a Hispanic person myself, I'd say that a Spanish-speaking patient would likely be more comfortable with a Spanish-speaking physician who comes from a similar culture than a non-Spanish-speaking Hispanic-looking physician who has no idea of the culture.

Maybe it varies by school/adcom, but there are certainly places that will look for involvement in that URM community.