Minority Student

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Personally, I don't give a **** if it takes them 10 years to finish medical school as long as they finish and do so according to the standards that everybody else was required to finish.

When I said underqualified, I meant who said that URMs whom adcoms believed WOULD NOT or COULD NOT handle medical school, are accepted? There is underqualified (which means u don't belong in med school) and there is not as highly qualified. If u look at the page Ryo-Ohki posted, the gpa's of the black/latino students is something like 3.59 avg. and the Asian/Whites is 3.8 something. Similarly, the MCAT scores were a little lower as well. This doesn't qualify them as UNDERQUALIFIED.

Still, your point makes sense that the people who drop out are most likely the ones with lower stats. Actually, there is not a high percentage of ANYBODY who drops out of medical school. The medical schools work with you to do whatever it takes for you to finish your M.D. degree. So, this is hardly a reason to say that URM's need not be chosen based on the need for representation within their communities.

Frankly people just have a hard time accepting the fact that medical schools accept students along various categories and try to fill in different quotas based on gender, location, skills, interests, etc...

I don't see anybody complaining that a State school takes more state applicants than Out of state applicants, or that they want an equal number or women as they do men. Why is it when it comes to giving a URM a chance at becoming a doctor; something their community desparately needs --that people get their panties all in a scrunch?

Look...this is the way you have to look at it. It has nothing to do with you. It's about fulfilling a void in the medical community, not about individual fairness/unfairness. There is a certain number of seats different categories of people are considered for: under-represented minorities HAPPENS to be one of them. There's nothing you can do about it, because once again...its not about you! :wink:

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•••quote:•••
Still, your point makes sense that the people who drop out are most likely the ones with lower stats. Actually, there is not a high percentage of ANYBODY who drops out of medical school. The medical schools work with you to do whatever it takes for you to finish your M.D. degree. So, this is hardly a reason to say that URM's need not be chosen based on the need for representation within their communities.
[/QB]••••In my comments I was refering to something you said and I tried to be very careful and not advocate that URMs should not be accepted for the reasons I listed (how is that for a double negative for you). :cool:
 
Yes, I noticed you were careful and I apologize for implying that you did.

But, even if your reasoning is correct (which it may be) that there are a higher percentage of URM's that drop out because we are assuming these particular students got in with lower scores, it does not deal with the issue of whether it is right or wrong to give consideration on the basis of being a URM.

So...triple negative or not, my point still stands.
 
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HippocratesX you do a good job of defending your point and I never tried to disprove your main point all of I was doing was going after a specific area. I have chosen to generally stay our of AA debates because they pop up every few months and all the same points are made over and over again. So then you may ask what I am doing here well I can't resist sometimes and there was something you said that just caught my eye.
 
I am tired and hate these threads but I feel that I have to say something.

Does anyone ever ask their doctor what their undergrad gpa or mcat score was? No! Numbers should be used as a baseline to eliminate those that are definitely not academically qualified to be physicians such as someone with a 2.2 gpa and 16mcat. If you took a survey of the most renown surgeons in the world most of them did not get 41T MCAT score or 3.99 gpa. Numbers do not make one a good or bad doctor.

I know that nothing I or anyone says will change someone who is diametrically opposed to AA. But just admit the fact the URM are much more likely to serve thier underserved community. The health of these communities effect the whole nation. If people in ghetto urban areas or really rural areas do not get adequate health care then diseases such as TB will be spread.

I do think AA in its current form should change. I am for including certain southeast asian as URM such as people from Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, and Vietnam. THey are usually political refugees and came here poor unlike many Taiwanese imigrants who come to the US with lots of money. Also social-economic status should be taken into consideration. If you are white/asian but grew up in very poor areas that should be taken into consideration. If you are african american but your dad is a surgeon and you grew up in Bel Air you should still be considered URM but get much less consideration as a URM than someone from Compton.

THose who think that URM students aren't as good should visit Howard medical school and talk to their students, in the end they become just as great of doctors as a school that is mainly caucasian.
 
med student :D that's cool....don't mind me too much, i'm just done with finals and have nothin better to do than pad my number of posts <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

This was my first time participating in an AA thread, so I think I've gotten it all outta my system. Sorry for anybody I might have rubbed the wrong way, but...hehehe, nonetheless, my argument/opinion is still the same.
 
Hippocrates....you are a true badass!!!

i have been on SDN for over a year and have had many battles about URM students and how it is all unfair.

i never try to get in these debates anymore b/c it just seems that no one listens. they are just pissed off b/c they did not get accepted.

your argument was fantastic and i must commend you! :D

i have said some of those arguments before and the final word is this....

None of these people would ever trade places with a minority. bottom line!

and URM students number about 1500 in an acceptance pool of almost 17,000 so all of you URM bashers stop the damn whining and crying!!!!

Big props to HippocratesX!!!!!!! :cool:
 
I"m not going to get lured into a debate, but I just wanted to say that we are individuals and not statistics. IF the avg. African American has a lower gpa/mcat than their Caucasian counterparts, that does not mean that they will drop out of medical school more often, nor does it mean that they have been chosen strictly b/c of their race. Last time I checked many med schools select candidates based on character, compassion, obstacles overcome, grades, mcat, EC's, LOR's, etc..

I'd like to argue that these averages can't really be compared that much. You are comparing two averages, which consist of largely different "n's". I'd argue that their are PLENTY of white and asian people in medical school right now with numbers that are below the African-American average, but had very strong personal characteristics, EC's, LOR's, personal statement etc..

Usually when someone says, "look, i had these really high numbers and i didn't get in and then cries racism," they most likely had ****ty interviews, a lousy personal statement, arrogance, little compassion, etc or something that made the admissions committee hesitant to accept that individual, even though they had proven time adn time again that they are good test takers. I think the mindset that looks at ethnic gpa/mcat without looking at the whole person is severely limited.

gpa/mcat may translate into a higher board score and a better residency placement, but to suggest it translates into more competent doctors is not necessarily true. You can be incredibly intelligent with horrible people skills. I think adcoms take that into consideration. For those of you with incredibly high numbers who haven't gotten accepted (or complain about other people with lower numbers than you), take a look in the mirror first before you conclude the numbers are the most important thing. Is there really a difference between a 29 and a 32, a 3.5 and a 3.7, when it comes to growing into a compassionate and effective physician?
 
The first poster's analogy of NBA and Med school admission demonstrates lack of reasoning ability. How did you do on your Verbal Reasoning, Thundercat77?
Gebeyaw
 
I just thought I would throw in my $0.02. While there is more to medical school admissions than your numbers, I think most people agree that being a URM increases your chance of getting in. I don't think anyone was trying to say that any URM can get in, but if the numbers on the site people put are true it is clear that it helps quite a bit. I realize that there may be some benefits from giving URM a preference, but in my opinion it is reverse racism. Someone said that it was a lesser evil, but I do not think it is right to hurt individuals for some greater good. I do not consider myself a racist, I simply don't think race should be a factor. A person could still have their background taken into account through the statement. The reason this bothers me it is simply not fair. If two students are nearly equal but one has a slightly better application than that student should get in regardless of race.

P.S. How can the UC schools make race a factor isn't that illegal under prop. 209 (or whatever the number was)?
 
Good post :clap:

Prop 209 helped to stop discrimination on the basis of race for a while. (although the 27 MCAT and 3.0 science GPA guy is kind of strange)
<a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sandiego/ucsd-med-97.html" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sandiego/ucsd-med-97.html</a>

But the UC schools have reverted back to discrimination on the basis of race in defiance of Prop 209.
 
To Gebe:

Do you have anything else better to do in your spare time than to challenge people's MCAT scores? Sure my analogy wasn't the best one, but it got my point across and that is what matters to me.

I sincerely apologize if my MCAT Verbal score isn't as high as yours (I got 9). I hope we all can one day learn to be as perfect in reasoning and verbal capacity as you.

Lionel
 
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Gebeyaw,

Abesha neh? Amarigna techelaleh? Enezee gegema yehonu Nechachiboch negerilign benateh...ENATACHEWENNNNNNNNNN! :D
 
okay, so I can see that people are in disagreement about the individual's needs versus the URM community's needs.

Although I can see the alternative point, that it may seem unfair to the non-URM with higher stats, that a URM gets to (at the very least) peak the adcomm's interest b/c they are a URM with qualified statistics. But there are organizations, institutions, and higher forms of groups out there who must take it upon themselves--as their duty-- to consider the rights/needs/concerns of larger societies/communities. Imagine a world where everybody looked out for 'individual rights'. If that was the case, then WHY ON EARTH DO WE EVEN HAVE A CENTRAL GOVERNMENT? Do u see how a world like that would collapse in a matter of a week?

So to say, its just unfair that race is a factor is useless. It is not unfair, because there is a void to be filled. And those of you posting here without first reading all the discussions in this thread up until this point, you are not only being redudant in your statements, but also missing valuable information and/or lessons to be learned as to why all of this IS NOT as unfair as it seems to be.
 
HippocratesX,

keep up the good fight and tell the people how it is! truth is I don't think anyone is changing their minds. People against helping URM will always be closed minded.
 
--Contract/Incentive based systems for under-doctored communities.
--Disadvantaged background affirmative action that is NOT based on race (a white guy with a disadvantaged background will have the same considerations as a black guy with a disadvantaged background)
 
You know, as a student, I'm looking forward, very much, to serve on admissions committees.
And I think that the good of the community is more important then the gpa of the applicants.

I don't think people should be accepted just on the basis of their scores.

Our society is served better, and indeed elevated, by having a healthcare system which reflects the population.

I think that is what the med schools believe too, and you can be sure that will affect my decisions.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by oneironaut:
•You know, as a student, I'm looking forward, very much, to serve on admissions committees.
And I think that the good of the community is more important then the gpa of the applicants.

I don't think people should be accepted just on the basis of their scores.

Our society is served better, and indeed elevated, by having a healthcare system which reflects the population.

I think that is what the med schools believe too, and you can be sure that will affect my decisions.•••••What school are you trying to get on the adcom of?
 
Ryo-Ohki...what good will that do? That still won't fix the problem AMCAS is trying to solve.

URM communities/Disadvantaged Communities are not going to relate to a white, disadvantaged physician because they can see that in him as a physician. What they CAN and DO relate too, is what they initially see...the person's physical characteristics, their struggles as a person of color in America, and how they can relate to their condition, desires in life, and relationship to their family. All of this matters when a physician is treating you, because believe me, medicine is not all idealistic and noble as those brochures may lead you to believe. URM communities/People don't trust non_URM physicians because doctors have the ability and power to do soooo much damage or good, depending on their relationship to their patient.

The problem is not about entrance into medical school, but you keep taking it there. You've made your point that you are angry, upset and frustrated with a system that requires you to compete with the representation of doctors already present in your ethnicity.

And how exactly would one go about dishing out incentive/contract based admissions to med school, anyway? That would bring on more legal trouble than you could ever imagine. Delegating whose future you dictate and whose you will not, is not something ANYBODY wants to get their fingers sticky with.
 
No, our society is best served by having the best and the brightest doctors serving our healthcare needs....regardless of race.

Don't go to school in California, Washington, Florida or Texas. There's legislation in those states forbidding what you are suggesting.
 
The racial mistrust you mention is at the heart of the problem. We, as a nation, should tackle this issue instead of condoning it by what you are suggesting (URM doctors for URM patients).
It is a derivate of the old Separate But Equal argument.

I, for one, want the best and brightest doctor serving my healthcare needs. I could care less what race he is.

These contract/incentive based systems are already in place for teachers. There haven't been many legal actions challenging these programs (not as many legal actions challenging AA without a doubt)
 
A system based on quotas are considered unconstitutional by the supreme court. I am a believer in affirmative action BUT I don't think that because african americans make up about 12% of the population that they must necessarily represent 12% of the medical students. That being said the few qualified URM must be given special consideration because they are the ones going back to their communities.
 
Ryo-Ohki, if you lack the mental capacity and or/ the common sense to hold a discussion or debate with me, then I suggest you stop now.

Otherwise, stop repeating yourself and backing yourself into the same corners you've already become well aquainted with, in this thread.

I won't even humor the comment that you are repeating for the 2nd time: "our society is based served by having the best and brightest doctors serving our healthcare needs". Because we have already discussed that "best" is up for interpretation.

If you're so concerned with high scores, then perhaps you should log off the internet and hit the ole' Orgo textbook? :wink: Or better yet, pick up a manual on Public speaking or debate. If you are going to say that one way is better than another, then you must provide a list of reasons (positive reasoning, no less...not what your way or system would forbid, but would enhance) and then your suggestions may hold some validity.

Otherwise, all you have said is that the higher gpa, mcat scores will make the best doctor, regardless of his experience, cultural, social, and all those other things that go into making a compassionate, competent doctor. You keep saying the same ****, and I keep presenting you with the same challenges and problems that you are dodging ...and dodging very INEFFECTIVELY, i might add...
 
Ohh...so I seee...

We should, as one society, work on all our racial tensions and mistrust, huh? :)

Wow, what a novel idea...where have you been all this time Ryo-Ohki? Forget med school, I think you need to be one of the President's advisors. Cause if you have the answers to solving racial mistrust, racism, and years and years of racial prejudices from family to family, then really...you need to set your goals higher than being a physician.

So you think its that easy huh? :wink: Easier than solving the immediate crisis? Hmm...don't know bout that one.
 
Admissions policies should be based on these factors (those factors that are indicative of the best and brightest future doctors):
1) GPA
2) MCAT
3) Research experience
4) Community service

NOT
1) Race (or experience inseparable from one's racial identity as you suggest)
2) GPA
3) MCAT
4) Research experience
5) Community service

Your personal attacks and insults trouble me. Why do you get so angry at someone who agrees on your long term goal (An America that has racial harmony) but just has a different path to that goal? We....do have the same goal, do we not?

In any case, your arguments are becoming increasingly clouded by personal slander. I will not respond to your replies if you continue to fail to show a modicum of respect to your fellow man.

Good night, all.
 
First, HippocratesX please stop attacking people. Obviously we disagree on certain points, but we should not get attack each other that kind of arguement is called ad hominem.

"Otherwise, all you have said is that the higher gpa, mcat scores will make the best doctor, regardless of his experience, cultural, social, and all those other things that go into making a compassionate, competent doctor. You keep saying the same ****, and I keep presenting you with the same challenges and problems that you are dodging ...and dodging very INEFFECTIVELY, i might add..."

I cannot speak for others but I agree that there is more to a doctor than test scores. Schools do take other factors into account. I simply think that these factors should be things the appliciant has done and experienced not being born a certain ethnicity.

"URM communities/People don't trust non_URM physicians because doctors have the ability and power to do soooo much damage or good, depending on their relationship to their patient."

To me this attitude seems racist. I can't be a good doctor to a URM because I am not a URM. Can any URM be a good doctor to another URM or does it have to be the same minority? I agree that a relationship between a doctor and patient is important and I don't see why a white (or asian) doctor can't have a relationship with a minority patient. Yes I may not share all the same experiences he or she has had but I can still establish a relationship. I have been treated by all sorts of different doctors from different backgrounds and I never really thought about their race.

Finally, the idea that is ok to ignore my rights for some supposed greater good is offensive to me. That line of arguement is similar to killing off people with genetic handicaps to improve the gene pool and reduce their burden on society. I know that example is extreme but it is the same line of reasoning; ignore the rights of the individual for the good of society.
 
I don't want to get pulled into this debate but I find this interesting..

If the argument for AA is that minority groups distrust Dr's not of their racial group and therefore are less likely to get good care, then isn't this enforcing racism. It seems very similar to saying "Older white men in the south distrust black doctors, therefore it is only fair to provide them with white doctors that they will feel comfortable with". That would be considered racism and the older white men would be told to get over their stereotypical views and accept that a black doctor will do just as well as a white doctor. How is a Black man that prefers a Black doctor any different and what excludes minority groups from the stigma attached to choosing a doctor based on race? Just a point to ponder. Please do not respond back with insults or by calling me, as one poster stated "Closed minded". Disagreeing with social programs such as AA does not make one racist or closed minded and to insinuate that it does is pointless rhetoric.
 
And these will be my feature colleagues <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
 
AAMC will no longer classify grad and MCAT scores by race starting in 2001 statistics, only by language,gender and major. In few more years, we will no longer see similar posts to this one, since now-URMs will be lumped with whites and asians to represent only one entry in AAMC stat.
BTW, if I was not a mexican american, but my last name was Gonzalez or ..., I would check myself as mexican american to give myself a better chance. How can AAMCS find out if an Gonzalez is a cuban or a mexican american?
 
Out of all the times this topic has come up in the last two years, this particular thread is the most offensive, juvenile and full of vulgar langauage I have read in the two years I have been here.

What filth. :( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
 
agree, amy beth. at the first sign of name-calling i stopped checking the post.. only came back because saw you as latest poster... just curious, did you change your mind about getting into medicine? :)
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by matthew0126:
•agree, amy beth. at the first sign of name-calling i stopped checking the post.. only came back because saw you as latest poster... just curious, did you change your mind about getting into medicine? :) •••••Hi Matthew0126,

Wellll.... I might have deceided to go. I did withdrawl from all my schools except MCV. I am going to make my mind up in the next 30 days. I still worry about the workload verses time with my family. But they have really been cheering me on lately so I guess I am leaning towards going.

Right now I have my sights on finishing embryology and graduating in two weeks. After that I will have time to think more clearly. Thanks for responding to my post. I really worry about the newest posts and some of the newest SDN members. SDN seems to be sliding into a dark pit lately. Glad there are still some good people like you though. :wink:
 
Wow, cool. You have a great family :D . Keep us updated!
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by medicine2006:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by oneironaut:
•You know, as a student, I'm looking forward, very much, to serve on admissions committees.
And I think that the good of the community is more important then the gpa of the applicants.

I don't think people should be accepted just on the basis of their scores.

Our society is served better, and indeed elevated, by having a healthcare system which reflects the population.

I think that is what the med schools believe too, and you can be sure that will affect my decisions.•••••What school are you trying to get on the adcom of?•••••Whichever school I end up at. I'm looking forward to being on the Adcom. I think it'd be fun to interview, I like to meet people. Not all interviewers are on the Adcom, but I'd like to do both.
 
To Hippocratesx:

Selam wegenie, amarigna ichilalehu. Abesha bemagnete betam des belognal. Bel wedefit besefiw inweyayalen. Auhn wede washington, DC lemehed bemezegajet lay silehonku chekuyalehu.

Selam hun.
gebeyaw
 
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