Modern Thought Process for Med Students in Choosing RO Programs

[deleted774703]

Hi med students. I've decided to share how I would view programs this year in light of all the changes in RO and this being a buyers market. Welcome other's opinions.

This is based on my personal experience via interviews, researching on my own, talking with friends at other programs, future job prospects, location, and research opportunities.

I am breaking programs into only 3 sections so don't get offended ppl (top, average, decline). If you're not top, then you're average. And yes I prefer biryani locations

Top 3

MDACC, Harvard, MSKCC

Still Top Tier worth graduating from

Cleveland Clinic, Penn, UCSF, Hopkins, Wash U, Duke

Top tier but Malignant

Stanford, Michigan

Great City but average program

Emory, UCLA, USC, UCSD, NYU, Mt. Sinai, Columbia, Northwestern, Rush, Loyola, Fox Chase, USC, Colorado, Miami, Moffitt, Mt. Sinai, OHSU, Vanderbilt, Univ Washington, UTSW

Great City but average and malignant program

Cornell, Montefiore, Univ Chicago, Jefferson

Average City and avg program

UF, Yale, Wisconsin, Maryland, MCW, UAB, UNC, Ohio St, Pitt, UVA, VCU, Utah, Cincinnati, Mayo Clinic AZ

Not worth it IMO (criteria is some combo of new program + avg program + below avg city + reputation)

Oklahoma, Cedars Sinai, LIJ, Kaiser, Georgetown, Indiana, Beaumont, Buffalo, UMDNJ, Univ Rochester, Univ Arizona

LOWEST TIER (some combo of new program + bad reputation + below below avg location + job prospect?)

NYP Methodist, UT Galveston, Dartmouth, Univ Tennessee, West Virginia, Arkansas, City of Hope, Nebraska, Stony Brook, Mississippi, Kansas, SUNY Downstate, Minnesota, Wayne State, Mayo Clinic Jacksonville, UC Irvine, Loma Linda, NCI, Allegheny, UT SA, Texas AM, Iowa, Kentucky, SUNY Upstate, Louisville, Case Western, Baylor, Wake Forest, MUSC, UC Davis

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[medgator]

Upstate NY programs have pretty decent training, but location is $h!t to be sure. Also quite established. Any of them >>> LIJ, ignoring location. Columbia has been a trainwreck in the past.

Considering RW, would add U Chicago to malignant list.

 

[deleted774703]

Upstate NY programs have pretty decent training, but location is $h!t to be sure. Also quite established. Any of them >>> LIJ, ignoring location. Columbia has been a trainwreck in the past.

Considering RW, would add U Chicago to malignant list.

Thanks for feedback

Chicago already on malignant. Columbia mediocre for sure but NYC

 

[maruchan]

I think it's very hard to judge the job prospects of programs you're unfamiliar with, and going by name recognition can be completely off. For the region of the country I'm familiar with, OP's ranking is very wrong and some of the less known programs at the bottom of OP's list have much better job track record/prospects than ones in the middle.

 

[deleted774703]

I think it's very hard to judge the job prospects of programs you're unfamiliar with, and going by name recognition can be completely off. For the region of the country I'm familiar with, OP's ranking is very wrong and some of the less known programs at the bottom of OP's list have much better job track record/prospects than ones in the middle.

Thanks for feedback. You may be right. It's my personal opinion and I welcome others opinions. Please share which ones you are mentioning

 

[KHE88]

Average City and avg program

UF, Yale, Wisconsin, Maryland, MCW, UAB, UC Davis, MUSC, UNC, Ohio St, Pitt, UVA, VCU, Utah, Wake Forest, Cincinnati, Case Western, Mayo Clinic AZ,

Not worth it IMO (criteria is some combo of new program + avg program + below avg city + reputation)

Oklahoma, Cedars Sinai, LIJ, Kaiser, Georgetown, Indiana, Beaumont, Buffalo, UMDNJ, Univ Rochester, Univ Arizona

DECLINE INTERVIEW (some combo of new program + bad reputation + below below avg location + job prospect?)

NYP Methodist, UT Galveston, Dartmouth, Univ Tennessee, West Virginia, Arkansas, City of Hope, Nebraska, Stony Brook, Mississippi, Kansas, SUNY Downstate, Minnesota, Wayne State, Baylor, Mayo Clinic Jacksonville, UC Irvine, Loma Linda, NCI, Allegheny, UT SA, Texas AM, Iowa, Buffalo, Kentucky, SUNY Upstate, Louisville

There's a lot to unpack here, but suffice it to say most of this is not accurate and puts an unfair bais against many solid smaller programs in less popular locations.

Iowa, Louisville, Nebraska, Kansas, Kentucky, Indiana, Georgetown, Beaumont... All of these are below UPMC? Why? I'd go to any of those over UPMC after all their recent negative publicity.

 

[deleted774703]

There's a lot to unpack here, but suffice it to say most of this is not accurate and puts an unfair bais against many solid smaller programs in less popular locations.

Iowa, Louisville, Nebraska, Kansas, Kentucky, Indiana, Georgetown, Beaumont... All of these are below UPMC? Why? I'd go to any of those over UPMC after all their recent negative publicity.

That's your opinion and totally fair. For me, I wouldn't go to the following b/c of location

Kentucky (also very brachy heavy; minimal research time), Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Indiana,

Kansas and Nebraska besides for location are also newer programs.

Georgetown good location, but no well known faculty and nothing spectacular about the program itself

Iowa all residents required to do basic science research, which I don't like personally

Beaumont live either in detroit suburb or Detroit which is not my cup of tea. Good but not great program reputation so not worth it IMO


Pitt def the chair is terrible and you don't get parental leave that I know of. Pros of program are Sushil Beriwal is a phenomenal educator and you get significant support for presenting at conferences. I also think Pitt is a beautiful city IMO

 

[evilbooyaa]

As always, an opinion is like an a**hole - everybody has one.

In the interest of not doxxing myself I won't provide specifics, but the 'DECLINE Interview' section is so incredibly wrong, IMO, that I'm convinced the only thing you know about literally any of those programs are what you've read on SDN.

 

[deleted1002574]

Beaumont isn't bad. GTown you get good city. The

As always, an opinion is like an a**hole - everybody has one.

In the interest of not doxxing myself I won't provide specifics, but the 'DECLINE Interview' section is so incredibly wrong, IMO, that I'm convinced the only thing you know about literally any of those programs are what you've read on SDN.

Ah, it's not that wrong of a list though, if instead of calling it "decline interview" call it "lowest tier". Though, I'd say Baylor is pretty good, Mayo Jax ain't bad, Downstate is busy and good pathology and few good teachers, Buffalo fairly good cancer center and opportunity to learn is there, and Minnestota is pretty good, but toooooo colllld

 

[deleted774703]

Beaumont isn't bad. GTown you get good city. The


Ah, it's not that wrong of a list though, if instead of calling it "decline interview" call it "lowest tier". Though, I'd say Baylor is pretty good, Mayo Jax ain't bad, Downstate is busy and good pathology and few good teachers, Buffalo fairly good cancer center and opportunity to learn is there, and Minnestota is pretty good, but toooooo colllld

Thanks. I would agree with calling it Lowest Tier instead.

I just really dislike the cold personally (brrr Minnesota, Buffalo, Rochester NY and MN, Wisconsin), but Buffalo is def a good cancer center overall if you can stand it.

I put the Beaumont and GT in the IMO category aka toss up based on personal preferences.

 

[OTN]

Disagree re: Baylor. Well-established program with graduates all throughout Texas.

 

[deleted1002574]

Disagree re: Baylor. Well-established program with graduates all throughout Texas.

Yes, excellent clinically.

MDACC appears to be riding on name, these days. Not what it used to be (allegedly).

 

[deleted774703]

Yes, excellent clinically.

MDACC appears to be riding on name, these days. Not what it used to be (allegedly).

Thx for feedback @ROFallingDown and @OTN. I have renamed decline to interview to lowest tier (though I would def decline Mississippi lol).

Also moved Baylor to avg city avg program.

Only 3 tiers so had to go under avg as it is def not top tier. Also, I don't love Houston the city (too hot!)

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I think it's very hard to judge the job prospects of programs you're unfamiliar with, and going by name recognition can be completely off. For the region of the country I'm familiar with, OP's ranking is very wrong and some of the less known programs at the bottom of OP's list have much better job track record/prospects than ones in the middle.

Pretty funny completely offbase list. All poop holes are stinky but are some stinkier? Pretty stinky list. Yuck!

Mid/lower list has some programs with some pretty legit clinical training.I would put any graduate from those places fully comfortable they know their stuff solidly over many of the “top” places. If you have not been clinically challenged during residency you’re gonna be in for a nasty surprise when you start practice.Some of the top programs i strongly feel do not produce good clinicians, pretty clueless actually per my experience.

 

[deleted774703]

Pretty funny completely offbase list. All poop holes are stinky but are some stinkier? Pretty stinky list. Yuck!

Mid/lower list has some programs with some pretty legit clinical training.I would put any graduate from those places fully comfortable they know their stuff solidly over many of the “top” places. If you have not been clinically challenged during residency you’re gonna be in for a nasty surprise when you start practice.Some of the top programs i strongly feel do not produce good clinicians, pretty clueless actually per my experience.

can you specify which?

 

[evilbooyaa]

My bottom tier that I would objectively decline to interview at are programs that have not graduated a resident yet, not necessarily because of clinical training, but due to a complete lack of alumni network to lean on for the job search.

In the current era, this would be Arkansas, U of Tennessee, and WVU, I believe. I don't think there are other programs that have not graduated anybody.

 

[deleted774703]

My bottom tier that I would objectively decline to interview at are programs that have not graduated yet, not necessarily because of clinical training, but due to a complete lack of alumni network to lean on for the job search.

In the current era, this would be Arkansas, U of Tennessee, and WVU, I believe. I don't think there are other programs that have not graduated anybody.

that’s fair. Can add Dartmouth to that

my thoughts are based on there 50 spots that will be unfilled.

So you have your choice as applicant meaning I would strongly not go to a place that I don’t want to live these days as well.

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Tier List Done Right

 

[deleted774703]

Tier List Done Right

View attachment 286240

pretty similar to my list. I just have subspecified by my preferred geography (skewing towards bigger cities with even more biryani)

 

[scarbrtj]

The thing about those Kentucky programs is *EDITED BY MODS* if the job market gets good again and there's a rad onc job that opens up in Kentucky it's gonna go to a UofL or UK grad. So you wanna be a rad onc in KY? Actually TRY to go to one of those two programs. I bet there's "geographic nepotism" like that in other parts of country too. In Florida they were awful biased toward Gainesville grads e.g.

 

[scarbrtj]

Tier List Done Right

View attachment 286240

@evilbooyaa potentially sticky worthy

 

[evilbooyaa]

@evilbooyaa potentially sticky worthy

As much as I appreciate a good meme, memes don't get stickies. This is 2019, not 2050.

 

[medgator]

The thing about those Kentucky programs is, as lackluster as their grads can and have been, if the job market gets good again and there's a rad onc job that opens up in Kentucky it's gonna go to a UofL or UK grad. So you wanna be a rad onc in KY? Actually TRY to go to one of those two programs. I bet there's "geographic nepotism" like that in other parts of country too. In Florida they were awful biased toward Gainesville grads e.g.

Exactly. No one cares about Harvard or Sloan in many smaller areas, and even some fairly fast-growing metros of the country

 

[scarbrtj]

As much as I appreciate a good meme, memes don't get stickies. This is 2019, not 2050.

think of it as an infographic

 

[deleted1002574]

It's sticky worthy.

 

[Reaganite]

Tier List Done Right

View attachment 286240

I spit out my soda. Somebody please sticky this!

 

[deleted1002574]

STICKY! STICKY! Come on everybody now!!

 

[MegaVoltagePhoton]

I am most familiar with the west coast. Is ucsf that good anymore? I haven’t heard great things. Ohsu is actually a very good program with a supportive chair, in a good location. Ucla has turned itself around a lot as well, I would now say is very good as opposed to say 5 years ago. Cedars is in a very good location and the chair is obviously a big wig with good connections but I don’t know about the training there specifically.

 

[KHE88]

That's your opinion and totally fair. For me, I wouldn't go to the following b/c of location

Kentucky (also very brachy heavy; minimal research time), Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Indiana,

Kansas and Nebraska besides for location are also newer programs.

Georgetown good location, but no well known faculty and nothing spectacular about the program itself

Iowa all residents required to do basic science research, which I don't like personally

Beaumont live either in detroit suburb or Detroit which is not my cup of tea. Good but not great program reputation so not worth it IMO


Pitt def the chair is terrible and you don't get parental leave that I know of. Pros of program are Sushil Beriwal is a phenomenal educator and you get significant support for presenting at conferences. I also think Pitt is a beautiful city IMO

Fair enough, but I don't think it's right to call a program "do not rank" because you do not like the location as that's subjective.

Lexington, Kansas City, Louisville, Omaha, Indianapolis all are underrated cities and decent places to live. Iowa City I have never been to but heard good things. I would honestly much rather be in any of those places as a resident than Georgetown due to cost of living.

Nebraska is a newer program true, but Kansas has been around for 30+ years I believe.

Agree Pittsburgh is underrated city. But I would not even apply to that program based on their reputation of personal vendettas against residents.

These lists always annoy me because they always have a totally subjective pro-coastal-big-city anti-midwest-city bias and seem to be authored by people who have never spent any significant time in midwestern cities.

There are Minot, North Dakotas the same way there are New Haven connecticuits. But plenty of very nice places to live in the midwest with all the Biryanis you can eat.

 

[deleted1002574]

That's very reasonable and I think medium sized cities are really great, actually. The cities listed have stuff to do, food, culture, diversity, etc. Plus, even if salary dips to $300k, you can still get a killer house. Most cities that residencies are in are not Minot. KC, Indianapolis are completely legit cities, I don't know the other ones very well. And, honestly, with the way things are going, you are going to have to live/work in one of those cities, anyway. The cities residencies are in are metropolises compared to where job openings are.

On a similar note, I think @KHE88 is a bit biased again coastal big cities. You may like them if you gave them a chance. Just like I think you'll like it when you give biryani a chance.

 

[deleted774703]

Fair enough, but I don't think it's right to call a program "do not rank" because you do not like the location as that's subjective.

Lexington, Kansas City, Louisville, Omaha, Indianapolis all are underrated cities and decent places to live. Iowa City I have never been to but heard good things. I would honestly much rather be in any of those places as a resident than Georgetown due to cost of living.

Nebraska is a newer program true, but Kansas has been around for 30+ years I believe.

Agree Pittsburgh is underrated city. But I would not even apply to that program based on their reputation of personal vendettas against residents.

These lists always annoy me because they always have a totally subjective pro-coastal-big-city anti-midwest-city bias and seem to be authored by people who have never spent any significant time in midwestern cities.

There are Minot, North Dakotas the same way there are New Haven connecticuits. But plenty of very nice places to live in the midwest with all the Biryanis you can eat.

Thanks for your input. You make fair points. My viewpoint is from a mid 20s single male who grew up in college towns.

I'm personally now enjoying the massive big city life and don't want to go back for a while

Therefore, I can say that you are right and I am absolutely biased towards cities that have a more vibrant night life, diversity, etc. and I'm personally okay with saving less money along the way to enjoy those perks.