Money vs hours

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Those who have met their financial goals probably wish that they worked less. Those that haven't probably wish they worked more or saved more or invested better. See if you can find a job that is flexible enough that it allows those who want to work more to make more and those who want to work less make less. E.g., work vacations, pick up extra weekends, etc.
 
dr doze said:
Those who have met their financial goals probably wish that they worked less. Those that haven't probably wish they worked more or saved more or invested better. See if you can find a job that is flexible enough that it allows those who want to work more to make more and those who want to work less make less. E.g., work vacations, pick up extra weekends, etc.
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Not 10+ years but our group has a lot of flexibility. There are always people who want days off or want to give up weekends so it's very easy to either take more time off or make more money. It's very nice to have a understanding and motivated scheduler.
 
dr doze said:
Those who have met their financial goals probably wish that they worked less. Those that haven't probably wish they worked more or saved more or invested better. See if you can find a job that is flexible enough that it allows those who want to work more to make more and those who want to work less make less. E.g., work vacations, pick up extra weekends, etc.
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This is incredibly sage advice.
 
new avatar:

Unknown-1.jpeg
 
Income
Savings rate
Spending rate

3 factors

But no one really likes to talk about spending for some reason.

dabears505 said:
Those of you who have been working for 10+ years, looking back do you wish you took a job with higher compensation but longer hours, or do you wish you worked a lot less with less money?
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I would rephrase this question in those terms.

I've known people (not just physicians) who worked like dogs and made lots of cash but burned every bit of it as fast as they made it. The worst was a 70-something-year-old orthopod who banged out cases every weekend to pay for jet fuel and his ex-wives. Or maybe the worst was a 30-something-year-old real estate agent who was making $30K/month in 2006 flipping crappy houses, who that year bought a boat and leased not one but two Hummers ... parked them outside because the garage was for the bikes and jet ski. The housing crash was rough on them but that's beside the point. These guys were very much work hard play harder people.

The $5-10M minimum retirement figures that get kicked around here have an unspoken level of baseline spending that needs to be factored into the "work hard quit early" vs "less work quit later" question.
 
Not 10 yrs.

Before I graduate one of my older attendings told me, he missed most of his kids birthdays. One year he made it to the party. His kid freaked out and asked why he was there.

Moreover, most people at end of their lives won’t say I wish I can work more, so I have more money.
 
It’s not how much you make, but how much you spend, and maybe some lucky timing/smart investments. Obviously your expectations matter. I don’t plan to leave a multigenerational legacy to my kids and grandkids that one could with an estate of $10M+, a real estate empire grown over 40 years, etc.
One thing I appreciate about academics is that it’s perfectly acceptable, even expected, that as you go along many will stop taking 1st and 2nd call, cut back to 80% or even 60% for a few years. I have plenty of money and I’ll be just fine. I will never wish I worked longer hours, more weekends, etc. I give call away now as it is, and my call burden is very low.
 
I am going to be in that dilemma. I will be having our first kid soon and will have to take the hit of potentially leaving my PP gig for a less lucrative envision or similar corporate robot job. The job market blows around me and I would likely make 100 to 150k less in a new position, but if I could have guaranteed post call off, flexibility for time off or early day if needed, more time to spend with the kid, then it it should be worth it. We live pretty below our means, so more pay right now means more money parked into investments\savings\etc, and keeping working away while becoming a stranger in family life. It's a hard decision to leave a first job that I am comfortable in with a diverse practice opportunity and step into a place and 'start over.' If I don't leave my current job, my wife will never let me live it down, but if I do leave, I will have to learn to live that I'm not earning my higher potential...
 
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My take on this is that if you are in good physical shape latter in life you will be able to work a very light schedule like 1 week per month to generate enough income on top of your savings to live comfortably.
If you're not is good shape in your seventies you won't be able to do much and won't be spending a lot of money.
It's hard to find a great job right of the bat so sometimes you have to work more at the start of your career.
I got mine by pure luck and i'm part time early in my forties but definately feel like i worked a lot until now.
 
2Fast2Des said:
I am going to be in that dilemma. I will be having our first kid soon and will have to take the hit of potentially leaving my PP gig for a less lucrative envision or similar corporate robot job. The job market blows around me and I would likely make 100 to 150k less in a new position, but if I could have guaranteed post call off, flexibility for time off or early day if needed, more time to spend with the kid, then it it should be worth it. We live pretty below our means, so more pay right now means more money parked into investments\savings\etc, and keeping working away while becoming a stranger in family life. It's a hard decision to leave a first job that I am comfortable in with a diverse practice opportunity and step into a place and 'start over.' If I don't leave my current job, my wife will never let me live it down, but if I do leave, I will have to learn to live that I'm not earning my higher potential...
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Is it possible to modify your current job in order to work less? You may have more influence over group decisions in your current setting than at an AMC.
 
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nimbus said:
Is it possible to modify your current job in order to work less? You may have more influence over group decisions in you current setting than at an AMC.
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I'm just an employee... They tell me to pound sand and I ask how hard. The admin partners don't listen to reason like that. We have had a few people leave because of wanting better lifestyle and hours and they made no effort to retain.
 
dabears505 said:
Those of you who have been working for 10+ years, looking back do you wish you took a job with higher compensation but longer hours, or do you wish you worked a lot less with less money?
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very good question. IMHO, the answer is a balance between compensation and quality of life. Every person has his/her own goals in life. Some want money while others want time off. Some want to do their own cases while others prefer to supervise.

I regret working too much and not spending more time with my kids. But, I was compensated quite well for missing their activities. What i can say is that there are many jobs out there where compensation isn't at the level where missing activities is worth it.

I think each person should set his/her goals in life and recognize the sacrifices it takes to accomplish those goals. Very few of us will obtain wealth without making big sacrifices in our lives to obtain it. Is it worth it? Again, only you can answer that question.

I like to think that passing on some of my money to my kids as very valuable and worth sacrifice. You may disagree with that philosophy. What I can say is that having money is like a security blanket and allows the older version of myself so many more options that the poor version of me didn't have as a new graduate.

So, would I do it all over again? Yes.
 
BLADEMDA said:
.like to think that passing on some of my money to my kids as very valuable and worth sacrifice. You may disagree with that philosophy. What I can say is that having money is like a security blanket and allows the older version of myself so many more options that the poor version of me didn't have as a new graduate.
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As my best friend's dad told him once, "you'll thank me when I'm dead" 😂
 
Personally I use money to get more time with my family so it is a balancing act. By earning more money now I can retire earlier. But there are times when I need to pay money now to get free time for important relevant moments/experiences.

Not a question with an easy answer for me. As I get older (and richer) I need the money less and less so I pick up fewer extra shifts and am more likely to buy time off from others.
 
If you view money as an artificial construct representing the treasuries that it was used to purchase, and supposedly that money originated as a surrogate from a productive effort made by someone/thing, than it is merely representative of productive time.

As the fed's proportion of treasury purchases grows (using money printed and kept on a ledger/balance sheet), the value of said monies steadily diminishes. Investments may grow, being partly real/partly a reflection of inflation.

Will the value of your time be more or less when you are older, no longer in good health, kids gone, etc? Each must consider these factors.

Now whether time itself is an artificial construct goes beyond this discussion. (Stephen Hawking had some fascinating thoughts on the matter).
 
gasdoc77 said:
If you view money as an artificial construct representing the treasuries that it was used to purchase, and supposedly that money originated as a surrogate from a productive effort made by someone/thing, than it is merely representative of productive time.

As the fed's proportion of treasury purchases grows (using money printed and kept on a ledger/balance sheet), the value of said monies steadily diminishes. Investments may grow, being partly real/partly a reflection of inflation.

Will the value of your time be more or less when you are older, no longer in good health, kids gone, etc? Each must consider these factors.

Now whether time itself is an artificial construct goes beyond this discussion. (Stephen Hawking had some fascinating thoughts on the matter).
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Ok. But the stuff that money buys is real….
 
If you're going to work hard make sure it's doing stuff you like doing. I think that's a very important piece of the puzzle. Don't grind taking trauma call and OB call if you don't actually like it because then it becomes simply that...a grind.

I do think there is a balance between "living to work" and "working to live" and I may argue it's healthier to be on the latter side.
 
I am of that age.

I worked exactly the right amount of time for the right amount of money. I wouldn’t change a thing.

First 2 years I sold vacation and busted my butt. Lifestyle~1.5x residency. Debt to tolerable levels, and investment account begun. Made some very risky investment decisions, which in retrospect were great, but could have made these years a net 0.

Next 4 years worked “normal amount.” Lifestyle 2x-3x residency. Low interest debt strategically maintained, investments heavily funded. Returns rolled into further investments.

Next 5 years bought extra vacation. Lifestyle 3-5x residency. Investments accumulated, still piling in.

Current working part time, lifestyle at semi stabilized spend patterns. Debt was paid off at some point in emotional way because it annoyed me. Investments worth 30% more than my lifetime pretax income. Work is for fulfillment and to avoid drawing down on investment account. Still fortunate enough to be working ideal schedule and making excess of spend, which adds to savings.

Someday I’ll get sick of the admin and politics, or get sued or something and I’ll just quit. I’m nowhere near that now, but there are those days and those cases that are less fulfilling.
 
I think people are less likely to respond if they have some regret, but could probably help the most. I have a little regret. I got out and spent more the first 3-5 years with minimal saving, but didn't spend it on anything too memorable. Switched it up and put 10-30% towards savings each month (can't exactly tell you b/c I don't track it exactly). I honestly don't miss any of the extra money or the pointless items. Autodraft investments before you have a chance to see it/spend it. The extra doesn't really buy any happiness. Make trips and family time a priority-building memories. I am set up to retire in early 50's. Don't care to retire, but know that I can if I want to. The quickest way to get ahead is to spend less on stupid stuff (spend less). You will still have tons of stupid stuff and live better than 99% of people. Don't ever feel like it is too late to start making an impact on savings.

TLDR: I would rather have time than money. Even at an average salary, you will still have an amazing lifestyle and retire early if you save 10-20% and invest it.
 
BobLoblaw78 said:
I think people are less likely to respond if they have some regret, but could probably help the most. I have a little regret. I got out and spent more the first 3-5 years with minimal saving, but didn't spend it on anything too memorable. Switched it up and put 10-30% towards savings each month (can't exactly tell you b/c I don't track it exactly). I honestly don't miss any of the extra money or the pointless items. Autodraft investments before you have a chance to see it/spend it. The extra doesn't really buy any happiness. Make trips and family time a priority-building memories. I am set up to retire in early 50's. Don't care to retire, but know that I can if I want to. The quickest way to get ahead is to spend less on stupid stuff (spend less). You will still have tons of stupid stuff and live better than 99% of people. Don't ever feel like it is too late to start making an impact on savings.

TLDR: I would rather have time than money. Even at an average salary, you will still have an amazing lifestyle and retire early if you save 10-20% and invest it.
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Good post, thanks for sharing. Agree on virtually all. Be wary of the doctor house and requisite Range Rover. In my experience anyway, it didn’t make me happier.
 
I work because I want to not because I have to. I’ll end up giving away all the money I make from now on until I die. The point is my working is a choice now not an obligation. I prefer it that way.
 
2Fast2Des said:
I'm just an employee... They tell me to pound sand and I ask how hard. The admin partners don't listen to reason like that. We have had a few people leave because of wanting better lifestyle and hours and they made no effort to retain.
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Are they also chronically short staffed and in a difficult location to recruit?
 
ItBurnsInMyHand said:
Are they also chronically short staffed and in a difficult location to recruit?
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Nope we're in a good location. And staffing was fine up until the group politics causing people to start leaving and now making us very short staffed.
 
It’s really the spending. The kids etc. I’ve pretty much met my goals within 13 years out. Kids college paid. No debt other than mortgage I can pay off anytime. I pay cars with cash so no loan

but our spending has increased. We used to spend 7-8k total a month on a 35-40k a month income. Now I work less and we spend close to 15-17k a month on a 30k a month salary.

30-40k a year for vacation. Kids activities probably ads another 10-12k. And we send kids to public school.

I’m just coasting off my investments

i use to work 50-60 hours a week with in house calls. Now I work 40-42 hours a week with limited beeper calls. Took a 125-150k paycut but that’s ok. I like sleeping in my own bed. Like my weekends off. Go to soccer/baseball/cheer events.

So load up on ur savings/investments before you have kids. If that’s possible. Than you can coast home.
 
I kept expecting Blade (maybe it was someone else) to comment "pick the less hours and don't get divorced....then you will have time and money!"
 
aneftp said:
It’s really the spending. The kids etc. I’ve pretty much met my goals within 13 years out. Kids college paid. No debt other than mortgage I can pay off anytime. I pay cars with cash so no loan

but our spending has increased. We used to spend 7-8k total a month on a 35-40k a month income. Now I work less and we spend close to 15-17k a month on a 30k a month salary.

30-40k a year for vacation. Kids activities probably ads another 10-12k. And we send kids to public school.

I’m just coasting off my investments

i use to work 50-60 hours a week with in house calls. Now I work 40-42 hours a week with limited beeper calls. Took a 125-150k paycut but that’s ok. I like sleeping in my own bed. Like my weekends off. Go to soccer/baseball/cheer events.

So load up on ur savings/investments before you have kids. If that’s possible. Than you can coast home.
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Don’t have kids 🙌🏽, well at least think about it some more. I don’t plan to, but lifestyle bloat is still something to be wary of outside of that.
 
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