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About how much do Podiatrists make?
Money
- Thread starter shikki79
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HAHA. Great question. Depends who you ask.
I think the average is supposed to be in the $110-130K range. If you look closer this is really for those at about 6-10 years into practice. The average can also be pretty vague because of different practice options. Opening a private practice vs. joining a group practice (Ortho groups are currently popular options) vs. working for someone else, etc. Lots of variability.
There are quite a few Podiatrists making $200-300K+/year, and there are also some complaining that they are having a tough time finding work for more than $50K/year. (I find the lower figures a bit hard to fathom.)
Sorry I can't give you a straight answer, but I don't think there is an easy one to give. Look into the published averages, but take the possible variations into account.
I think the average is supposed to be in the $110-130K range. If you look closer this is really for those at about 6-10 years into practice. The average can also be pretty vague because of different practice options. Opening a private practice vs. joining a group practice (Ortho groups are currently popular options) vs. working for someone else, etc. Lots of variability.
There are quite a few Podiatrists making $200-300K+/year, and there are also some complaining that they are having a tough time finding work for more than $50K/year. (I find the lower figures a bit hard to fathom.)
Sorry I can't give you a straight answer, but I don't think there is an easy one to give. Look into the published averages, but take the possible variations into account.
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You had to guess that I might respond to this post, efs!
There is a LOT of variability. Most DPM's who are recent graduates DO NOT make more than 70-80k (gross) per year even if they've had maximum training. There were some numbers published recently in one of the podiatry mags that said that the average income for the 1st couple of years ranges from about 37k to 45k. I know it might be hard to believe, but it's true. The only way that you are realistically going to make 100k-plus in the 1st few years is to be an incredible business person or be fraudulent.
It's all a matter of numbers. The DPM who sees the most patients makes the most money. You can be the most highly trained surgeon around, but if you don't have a patient base you're not going to make any money. Basic podiatry pays a little bit less than complex surgeries, but not by much. I happen to make FAR MORE money than any of my colleagues simply because I see a WHOLE lot of patients. And, I don't do any surgery whatsoever. And, if you work for another DPM or MD, you still won't make very much since you're working for a relatively small percentage. If you decide to go it alone, you need to realize the added costs (overhead, self-employment tax, etc.). Self employment tax is something that I, nor any of my cohorts, was really aware of until it hit us. Basically, if you're an independent operator, you need to pay (roughly) another 15% in taxes. This brings you overall tax rate up about 15%. This is significant.
I have 4 friends in Los Angeles who all did one or two more years of residency than I did and NONE of them are making over 60k. And this is gross! All have been out for one year or more and NONE of them have done a single surgery. THIS is the reality that I know.
There is a LOT of variability. Most DPM's who are recent graduates DO NOT make more than 70-80k (gross) per year even if they've had maximum training. There were some numbers published recently in one of the podiatry mags that said that the average income for the 1st couple of years ranges from about 37k to 45k. I know it might be hard to believe, but it's true. The only way that you are realistically going to make 100k-plus in the 1st few years is to be an incredible business person or be fraudulent.
It's all a matter of numbers. The DPM who sees the most patients makes the most money. You can be the most highly trained surgeon around, but if you don't have a patient base you're not going to make any money. Basic podiatry pays a little bit less than complex surgeries, but not by much. I happen to make FAR MORE money than any of my colleagues simply because I see a WHOLE lot of patients. And, I don't do any surgery whatsoever. And, if you work for another DPM or MD, you still won't make very much since you're working for a relatively small percentage. If you decide to go it alone, you need to realize the added costs (overhead, self-employment tax, etc.). Self employment tax is something that I, nor any of my cohorts, was really aware of until it hit us. Basically, if you're an independent operator, you need to pay (roughly) another 15% in taxes. This brings you overall tax rate up about 15%. This is significant.
I have 4 friends in Los Angeles who all did one or two more years of residency than I did and NONE of them are making over 60k. And this is gross! All have been out for one year or more and NONE of them have done a single surgery. THIS is the reality that I know.
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Hi ToeJam,
I won't dispute anything you've written. I do value all opinions, though I may not neccesarily agree with them. I just think that your assessment is based on a limited selection.
I really can't argue much with any of it. I do think it is disgusting that SOME podiatrists out there are settling for such figures. In my view that is what it really is. Of the 4 you mentioned who are surgically trained, working in LA for next to nothing - why? Are they tied to the area, and can't look elsewhere? Did they get themselves into associateship type relations where they are hamstrung? (Did they have an attourney review their contract before signing?) Lots of questions that might indicate that these are not neccesarily the norm.
I take it that you are a good businessman rather than fraudulent
. No, I realize that you managed to find a somewhat unique position. But is there anything that is stopping any other recent graduate from doing the same?
On a side note. One of the docs I am working with is looking at houses (in the 450-800K range) to buy. In his current position he is making less than what he was in private practice. HMMM.
As far as the graduating residents. I don't know specific figures. One is joining an established practice. I suspect a starting figure >70K, more likely closer to 100K. A lot of perks too. One is chosing to open a private practice from scratch. Small hometown area. Over 6 months now spent working on setting this up. I suspect a few lean years in the near future. (In a situation like this, I would probably spend the next few years scraping by on my bills, and turning the rest of the income back over into the business. Essentially income would be close to nothing. Of course, some expenses like a vehicle could be put in the name of the business, which means we start to play around with where the money really falls. While income may appear to be nothing, you really could get along quite well. A few years down the road it will pay off well. How does something like this affect the averages?) I don't think the third resident has anything set up yet. This might end up being one similar to those you cite. Who knows?
I really think it depends a lot on the individual. And it isn't all about money.
I won't dispute anything you've written. I do value all opinions, though I may not neccesarily agree with them. I just think that your assessment is based on a limited selection.
I really can't argue much with any of it. I do think it is disgusting that SOME podiatrists out there are settling for such figures. In my view that is what it really is. Of the 4 you mentioned who are surgically trained, working in LA for next to nothing - why? Are they tied to the area, and can't look elsewhere? Did they get themselves into associateship type relations where they are hamstrung? (Did they have an attourney review their contract before signing?) Lots of questions that might indicate that these are not neccesarily the norm.
I take it that you are a good businessman rather than fraudulent
. No, I realize that you managed to find a somewhat unique position. But is there anything that is stopping any other recent graduate from doing the same?On a side note. One of the docs I am working with is looking at houses (in the 450-800K range) to buy. In his current position he is making less than what he was in private practice. HMMM.
As far as the graduating residents. I don't know specific figures. One is joining an established practice. I suspect a starting figure >70K, more likely closer to 100K. A lot of perks too. One is chosing to open a private practice from scratch. Small hometown area. Over 6 months now spent working on setting this up. I suspect a few lean years in the near future. (In a situation like this, I would probably spend the next few years scraping by on my bills, and turning the rest of the income back over into the business. Essentially income would be close to nothing. Of course, some expenses like a vehicle could be put in the name of the business, which means we start to play around with where the money really falls. While income may appear to be nothing, you really could get along quite well. A few years down the road it will pay off well. How does something like this affect the averages?) I don't think the third resident has anything set up yet. This might end up being one similar to those you cite. Who knows?
I really think it depends a lot on the individual. And it isn't all about money.
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I will tell you that the range of opinions on this topic really vary. On my quest to find the truth on podiatry earnings, I really went to serious extremes. There is a yuppie magazine in my hometown which featered a podiatrist on the cover whom coincedently worked in the same building as my wife's dental practice. My wife happened to be friends with some of the front desk staff and expressed how I am going to be a future podiatrist and would like to setup a Q&A deal with the doctor. Now I expected to hear great things on the profession but was sadley dissappointed. I was told that there is no money in the field repeatedly and he would strongly recommend computers and also how he had a niece who just finished her residency and worked for a guy in Jersey only making $40,000 a year. To be a little fair he talked about his earlier dinner with a cardiologist friend and said that he complains about the money just like a PODIATRIST, saying that there is no money in medicine period!
I then talked to podiatrists in Conn., Mobile-Alabama, D.C. and they all said they were doing well. The Alabama guy pulls in $500,000 a year only focusing on toes (12 years of practice). The Conn. guy never had a residency, just a prentorship and makes about $150,000 (graudauted in '92). D.C. is doing surgery twice a week and runs a private practice making about $200,000 (20years of practice).
I then talked to podiatrists in Conn., Mobile-Alabama, D.C. and they all said they were doing well. The Alabama guy pulls in $500,000 a year only focusing on toes (12 years of practice). The Conn. guy never had a residency, just a prentorship and makes about $150,000 (graudauted in '92). D.C. is doing surgery twice a week and runs a private practice making about $200,000 (20years of practice).
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There is a TON of variability when you compare how much DPM's make across the board. I don't think that there is as much variability when you look at MD's/DO's. I'm only saying this because I know that pretty much any MD or DO who finds a job is going to get paid something commensurate with their training and education (i.e., over 100k). A podiatrist is NOT going to get hired anywhere in the same way that an MD or DO will (of course, there are exceptions). A podiatrist is not likely to get hired by a group practice and get paid 120k or something like that (which can be expected by almost any MD or DO specialty right out of residency). The #1 guy in my class who did 5th Avenue in Seattle DID get hired by Kaiser in Northern Cal (I forget which one) and, while I don't know the exact number, is getting a salary of around 100k. That's great, but it is a serious exeption. Most of us who didn't do 5th Avenue are going to be hired by one or more DPM's and sent off to some clinics, boarding homes or house calls and will get paid something like 50k. This has happened with EVERY SINGLE person that I've kept in contact with since graduation. Now, I know that I don't have the info. for every person in my class, so I can't speak for everyone. And I know that there are a lot of exceptions. I'm only telling you what I know and what I've heard.
I think a lot of students are misinformed when they're in school and imagine themselves getting hired by a group practice in the city/town of their choice and commanding a salary of 120k like the "average" they keep hearing. I can't even tell you how unreal this expectation is. While I was a resident at L.A. County, I kept hearing about local DPM's who were really struggling or who were going bankrupt, etc. There were, of course, a couple of attendings who visited who were making pretty good money (over 100k), but they were in the minority AND they had been out in practice for more than 15 years! There was an attending at CCPM who had been out of his residency for 2-3 years (I think) and....please brace yourself....HE WAS WAITING TABLES ON THE SIDE TO SUPPLEMENT HIS MEAGER INCOME!!!!!!! I had a tough time with that one.
efs - No offense, but I still find it amusing that students ask questions with words like "settling for such figures..." Do you think that we WANT to run around from clinic to clinic and see degenerates and criminals and not get paid half the time? Do you think most pods enjoy going to nursing homes to cut toenails and put up with....Don't you think we'd rather be seeing patients with good insurance and interesting pathology in cushy offices? And, don't you think that those of us who are surgically trained would be happier doing two or three transmets or triple arthrodesis' a day?? I don't know how to put it any more simply....THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS! Unless you have a connection or finish #1 in the class (and then follow it up with a very well known residency), you're going to be scratching for employment. You asked "why" my 4 surgically trained friends are "settling" for this kind of work. Ummm....because THERE ISN'T ANY OTHER KIND OF WORK AVAILABLE! And, most of them have families that depend on them financially. And, yes, they aren't willing to relocate, which would certainly improve their plight. We can't even get a nursing home in L.A. because they're already taken by a DPM!
I'm not really a good businessman, but the guy that owns the practice (with another MD) is a tenacious businessman. He's been increasing the number of patients at this clinic since I started almost 3 years ago. That's my story. Finding this kind of situation is pure luck. Unless you have a business plan that will get patients in the door, you'll have trouble seeing them initially.
I think location has a lot to do with it (even though the docs at CCPM said "work wherever you want to live"). I think it's much easier to make a good living as a pod if you're willing to go where you're needed the most. You need to also be careful of other DPM's taking advantage. Ask around and find out what a reasonable salary or hourly wage would be. When I was looking in 1999, $40/hour or about 50-60k was considered reasonable. But, when you think about insurance, self employment tax, student loans, etc., it is in no way reasonable. From my experience, if you have the normal heinous loans that most have (above 150k) and you're going to be an independent contractor (which will be required by most, if not all, DPM's who hire you), you're going to need to gross at least 80k to make a decent living. You can calculate it out and see what I mean.
I think a lot of students are misinformed when they're in school and imagine themselves getting hired by a group practice in the city/town of their choice and commanding a salary of 120k like the "average" they keep hearing. I can't even tell you how unreal this expectation is. While I was a resident at L.A. County, I kept hearing about local DPM's who were really struggling or who were going bankrupt, etc. There were, of course, a couple of attendings who visited who were making pretty good money (over 100k), but they were in the minority AND they had been out in practice for more than 15 years! There was an attending at CCPM who had been out of his residency for 2-3 years (I think) and....please brace yourself....HE WAS WAITING TABLES ON THE SIDE TO SUPPLEMENT HIS MEAGER INCOME!!!!!!! I had a tough time with that one.
efs - No offense, but I still find it amusing that students ask questions with words like "settling for such figures..." Do you think that we WANT to run around from clinic to clinic and see degenerates and criminals and not get paid half the time? Do you think most pods enjoy going to nursing homes to cut toenails and put up with....Don't you think we'd rather be seeing patients with good insurance and interesting pathology in cushy offices? And, don't you think that those of us who are surgically trained would be happier doing two or three transmets or triple arthrodesis' a day?? I don't know how to put it any more simply....THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS! Unless you have a connection or finish #1 in the class (and then follow it up with a very well known residency), you're going to be scratching for employment. You asked "why" my 4 surgically trained friends are "settling" for this kind of work. Ummm....because THERE ISN'T ANY OTHER KIND OF WORK AVAILABLE! And, most of them have families that depend on them financially. And, yes, they aren't willing to relocate, which would certainly improve their plight. We can't even get a nursing home in L.A. because they're already taken by a DPM!
I'm not really a good businessman, but the guy that owns the practice (with another MD) is a tenacious businessman. He's been increasing the number of patients at this clinic since I started almost 3 years ago. That's my story. Finding this kind of situation is pure luck. Unless you have a business plan that will get patients in the door, you'll have trouble seeing them initially.
I think location has a lot to do with it (even though the docs at CCPM said "work wherever you want to live"). I think it's much easier to make a good living as a pod if you're willing to go where you're needed the most. You need to also be careful of other DPM's taking advantage. Ask around and find out what a reasonable salary or hourly wage would be. When I was looking in 1999, $40/hour or about 50-60k was considered reasonable. But, when you think about insurance, self employment tax, student loans, etc., it is in no way reasonable. From my experience, if you have the normal heinous loans that most have (above 150k) and you're going to be an independent contractor (which will be required by most, if not all, DPM's who hire you), you're going to need to gross at least 80k to make a decent living. You can calculate it out and see what I mean.
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•••quote:••• are "settling" for this kind of work. Ummm....because THERE ISN'T ANY OTHER KIND OF WORK AVAILABLE! And, most of them have families that depend on them financially. And, yes, they aren't willing to relocate, which would certainly improve their plight. We can't even get a nursing home in L.A. because they're already taken by a DPM!
••••This is kind of what I was getting at. If you decide you just have to live in a certain area, you are severely limiting yourself. This is one of the reasons I see. I have no reason to believe anyone other than those individuals is responsible for this. If you want to stay in an oversaturated market you are going to have problems. The same is true for any other medical specialty. If the market is oversaturated you will pay a price for it.
Working for someone else presents a whole different bunch of problems. Did they hire lawyers to review their contracts? Or did they just read through it themselves? Did they accept what was offered, or did they make changes and a counter-offer? What they accept is up to each individual. I find it hard to fault the profession for that.
••••This is kind of what I was getting at. If you decide you just have to live in a certain area, you are severely limiting yourself. This is one of the reasons I see. I have no reason to believe anyone other than those individuals is responsible for this. If you want to stay in an oversaturated market you are going to have problems. The same is true for any other medical specialty. If the market is oversaturated you will pay a price for it.
Working for someone else presents a whole different bunch of problems. Did they hire lawyers to review their contracts? Or did they just read through it themselves? Did they accept what was offered, or did they make changes and a counter-offer? What they accept is up to each individual. I find it hard to fault the profession for that.
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I do not understand why everyone is complaining about pod. salaries. My impression is that you start out making 40K+ after 4 years of pod. school and 1-2 years of residency. You then gradually approach 100K+.
As a radiology resident I have endured 4 years of medical school, 1 year of internship working 80+ hours a week for 35K. I am making a little bit more now as a resident. I still have 3 years of residency left with 100K in debt.
Seems like the earnings pods. make in the first 5 years of their career are still better than most medical school graduates during residency. Podiatrists also make on average as much as a primary care physician with a MUCH better lifestyle.
As far as job market is concerned, it is very difficult for primary care physcians to obtain positions in popular areas like Los Angeles, Chicago, etc at the present time. I know a recent grad who recieved an offer of 80K with 1 week of vacation! So do not think that that phenomenon pertains only to podiatrists.
As a radiology resident I have endured 4 years of medical school, 1 year of internship working 80+ hours a week for 35K. I am making a little bit more now as a resident. I still have 3 years of residency left with 100K in debt.
Seems like the earnings pods. make in the first 5 years of their career are still better than most medical school graduates during residency. Podiatrists also make on average as much as a primary care physician with a MUCH better lifestyle.
As far as job market is concerned, it is very difficult for primary care physcians to obtain positions in popular areas like Los Angeles, Chicago, etc at the present time. I know a recent grad who recieved an offer of 80K with 1 week of vacation! So do not think that that phenomenon pertains only to podiatrists.
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Thank you for giving us a glimpse of what life looks like on the other side of the fence.
Pretty close to what I thought, just that most people don't make much mention of it. Any thoughts on why that might be? Is it a differnce in expectation? Does the number of positions make a difference? Are MD/DOs more likely to accept a lower paying position (in an area they want to live in) without complaint because they know there are other options available?
How do you expect a Family Practitioner to fare if they were to open a private practice right out of residency? I would expect them to have lower start-up costs (pods do need some more expensive equipment to set up an office). Same line of questioning with regards to dentists (who would have higher start-up costs for equipment).
What role does lack of awareness concerning other areas play?
Pretty close to what I thought, just that most people don't make much mention of it. Any thoughts on why that might be? Is it a differnce in expectation? Does the number of positions make a difference? Are MD/DOs more likely to accept a lower paying position (in an area they want to live in) without complaint because they know there are other options available?
How do you expect a Family Practitioner to fare if they were to open a private practice right out of residency? I would expect them to have lower start-up costs (pods do need some more expensive equipment to set up an office). Same line of questioning with regards to dentists (who would have higher start-up costs for equipment).
What role does lack of awareness concerning other areas play?
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Thanks for the input, oldandtired, but I have to disagree with your impressions.
First off, you don't have to start paying back your student loans until you are completely finished with your residency. You could comfortably pay off the interest as you go. And, as a resident, you will make roughly what an average podiatrist will make 1, 2 and 3 years out. You will probably make something like 40-42k in your first year, mid 40's in your second and it will increase to around 50 or so by the time you are in your last year. And, your hours will be decreasing every year. A podiatrist, by contrast, can expect to work at least 60-70 hours a week if he/she even hopes to make 60-80k gross (meanwhile paying back the student loans, saving up an additional 15% in taxes because of self-employment designation and, if they decided to start up their own practice....well, that would be unwise).
I think that you are also buying into the podiatry mantra of low hours and high pay. That is utter hogwash. I think what gets confusing is that very few podiatrists have emergency call and, thus, do not work horrible hours. This IS true, but their income reflects it.
And, another huge difference between you and us is that YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE JOB OFFERS WHEN YOUR ARE FINISHED! Podiatrists generally DO NOT have any realistic job offers when they finish their residencies and end up doing very unglamorous work for a pittance. Oh, and one other thing....when you finish your residency, you're going to command a salary around 180k to 225k!!!!! I mean, c'mon!! Radiologists are one of the most highly paid medical specialties around. And, your hours are not going to be too ridiculous.
FP's and internists do 3 years of total residency. Most podiatrists do 2 years. An FP or internist is likely to command a salary of around 100k when they finish (no matter what part of the country they work in). A podiatrist is going to make between 35 and 45k in the first 1-3 years. And, may I also point out that it is HIGHLY unlikely that an FP or internist is going to open up their own practice from the get go. This is because they don't have to and have a reasonable number of jobs to pick from (with perks like health insurance, malpractice insurance, parking, vacation, etc., etc., paid for). A podiatrist will be lucky to find a decent job in the first 6 months post-residency and this job WILL NOT pay for health/malpractice insurance and will probably not take on an associate as an "employee" since they have to pay your self-employment tax. This is also a very big difference.
And just as an addendum, in California, where I practice, our beloved governor is trying to push through some legislation that would omit podiatry from Medi-Cal (Medi-Caid everywhere else). I'd say that this pretty much sums up the lack of respect that we endure all of the time compared to MD's and DO's. Do you think that any governor in any state is going to introduce legislation to eliminate radiologists from the payroll???? I really doubt it. If I lost Medi-Cal, I'd lose about 40% of my income. This would be a deathblow to a lot of DPM's.
So, I'm not sure if you were serious about trying to favorably compare your situation as a radiology resident (which I would pay money to be right now) with a podiatrist, or you are just trying to get a rise out of us! Either way, welcome to the podiatry forum!
First off, you don't have to start paying back your student loans until you are completely finished with your residency. You could comfortably pay off the interest as you go. And, as a resident, you will make roughly what an average podiatrist will make 1, 2 and 3 years out. You will probably make something like 40-42k in your first year, mid 40's in your second and it will increase to around 50 or so by the time you are in your last year. And, your hours will be decreasing every year. A podiatrist, by contrast, can expect to work at least 60-70 hours a week if he/she even hopes to make 60-80k gross (meanwhile paying back the student loans, saving up an additional 15% in taxes because of self-employment designation and, if they decided to start up their own practice....well, that would be unwise).
I think that you are also buying into the podiatry mantra of low hours and high pay. That is utter hogwash. I think what gets confusing is that very few podiatrists have emergency call and, thus, do not work horrible hours. This IS true, but their income reflects it.
And, another huge difference between you and us is that YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE JOB OFFERS WHEN YOUR ARE FINISHED! Podiatrists generally DO NOT have any realistic job offers when they finish their residencies and end up doing very unglamorous work for a pittance. Oh, and one other thing....when you finish your residency, you're going to command a salary around 180k to 225k!!!!! I mean, c'mon!! Radiologists are one of the most highly paid medical specialties around. And, your hours are not going to be too ridiculous.
FP's and internists do 3 years of total residency. Most podiatrists do 2 years. An FP or internist is likely to command a salary of around 100k when they finish (no matter what part of the country they work in). A podiatrist is going to make between 35 and 45k in the first 1-3 years. And, may I also point out that it is HIGHLY unlikely that an FP or internist is going to open up their own practice from the get go. This is because they don't have to and have a reasonable number of jobs to pick from (with perks like health insurance, malpractice insurance, parking, vacation, etc., etc., paid for). A podiatrist will be lucky to find a decent job in the first 6 months post-residency and this job WILL NOT pay for health/malpractice insurance and will probably not take on an associate as an "employee" since they have to pay your self-employment tax. This is also a very big difference.
And just as an addendum, in California, where I practice, our beloved governor is trying to push through some legislation that would omit podiatry from Medi-Cal (Medi-Caid everywhere else). I'd say that this pretty much sums up the lack of respect that we endure all of the time compared to MD's and DO's. Do you think that any governor in any state is going to introduce legislation to eliminate radiologists from the payroll???? I really doubt it. If I lost Medi-Cal, I'd lose about 40% of my income. This would be a deathblow to a lot of DPM's.
So, I'm not sure if you were serious about trying to favorably compare your situation as a radiology resident (which I would pay money to be right now) with a podiatrist, or you are just trying to get a rise out of us! Either way, welcome to the podiatry forum!
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One other note, oldandtired:
When I was a resident (3 years ago at L.A. County/USC), I made 10k a year and had to wait tables on the weekends (working the same hours as you) just because I was a podiatry resident.
Count your blessings at 35k.
When I was a resident (3 years ago at L.A. County/USC), I made 10k a year and had to wait tables on the weekends (working the same hours as you) just because I was a podiatry resident.
Count your blessings at 35k.
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I did not know it was so bad. I always imagined podiatrists working 9-5 hours mon-fri making 100K+. What I do not understand though is why someone would want to become a podiatrist if the field has such a bleak outlook.
Look at what happened in anesthesia in the mid 90s. Very few American grads went into this field once they found out that the job prospects were so bad. You would think that people would shun the field and schools would close.
Look at what happened in anesthesia in the mid 90s. Very few American grads went into this field once they found out that the job prospects were so bad. You would think that people would shun the field and schools would close.
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Stinky T
•••quote:•••Originally posted by oldandtired:
•You would think that people would shun the field and schools would close.•••••That's exactly what has happened to the field of podiatry. I've spoken to several podiatrists in the past and the field seems to be more as Toejam describes. There aren't many opportunities or choices out there. Even in CA, settling for something as a PCP still means you start at over $100,000 on average. Established podiatrists probably do okay, but I think the opportunities for new grads are very poor.
•You would think that people would shun the field and schools would close.•••••That's exactly what has happened to the field of podiatry. I've spoken to several podiatrists in the past and the field seems to be more as Toejam describes. There aren't many opportunities or choices out there. Even in CA, settling for something as a PCP still means you start at over $100,000 on average. Established podiatrists probably do okay, but I think the opportunities for new grads are very poor.
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I think it's pretty simple why someone would pursue podiatry today. It's because they really want to a) be a doctor, or b) be called "doctor". Simple as that. And, for one reason or another they were unable to get into DO or MD school. Podiatry schools will literally take anyone into their fold.
Stinky's right, too. The pods who have been out for 15 years plus are generally doing ok. This is because they've established their own practice and have likely hooked up with one or more nursing homes, which is really easy money. They also have a good referral base and are already on a host of plans. Recent grads not only have MUCH more debt, but they're finding that it isn't as easy to get established, get onto plans, find a vacant nursing home and get any referrals.
Here's the way I look at the medical world:
MD - No problem getting work
DO - Almost no problem getting work
DDS - Some trouble making a living.
DPM - A lot of trouble making a living.
DC - Fugitaboutit.
DVM - Can find work, but can't make any money.
Stinky's right, too. The pods who have been out for 15 years plus are generally doing ok. This is because they've established their own practice and have likely hooked up with one or more nursing homes, which is really easy money. They also have a good referral base and are already on a host of plans. Recent grads not only have MUCH more debt, but they're finding that it isn't as easy to get established, get onto plans, find a vacant nursing home and get any referrals.
Here's the way I look at the medical world:
MD - No problem getting work
DO - Almost no problem getting work
DDS - Some trouble making a living.
DPM - A lot of trouble making a living.
DC - Fugitaboutit.
DVM - Can find work, but can't make any money.
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Toejam,
I'm sorry, but I disagree with your view of the medical world. To say that a DDS/DMD will have "some trouble making a living" is absolutely absurd.
Let me enlighten you with some numbers:
The income of a DDS is the only income of the catergories you've mentioned which has risen each year for the past 16 years. In 1986 a general dentist's net income was $69k while a specialist earned $97k. In the year 2000, an average general dentist earned $158k while a specialist earned $241k. No other medical profession has seen a constant rise in income. Further, MD/DOs find themselves working harder and longer to make the same salaries they made 5 years ago. Vacations are limited and work weeks are increasing, and salaries are still falling (in regards to most specialities). Those specialties that are still raking in big $$ are faced with confrontations from allied health professionals (such as a nurse anes. making 75% of what an MD anes. makes).
In 2000, the average net income of new independent general practitioners is $135k. The net income of new independent specialists averaged $210k in 1998. "New" refers to a DDS who graduated from school less than 2 years ago.
Although it may seem unfathomable to you (I've noticed you seem to worship the "M.D." letters) those "new" DDS specialists who earn on average $210,000 are those same "new" specialists who work an average of 31 hours a week.
Whatever figures you choose: $135,000 or $210,000 -- it is hardly true that new dentists are having trouble making a living. And, for what it is worth, the salary and lifestyle of a DDS will only continue to become better. Dentistry is the only medical profession which isn't infringed upon by other medical professionals. Essentially, dentistry is merely a medical specialty -- some choose rads, some eyes, some teeth .
Certainly we are each entitled to our opinions and facts may be skewed to better nearly any cause -- but it is no longer an undisputed case that MDs are at the top of the totem pole. Also, I've appreciated the insights and thoughts that you have posted in this forum and the other forums. Good luck with your MD acceptance.
-G
I'm sorry, but I disagree with your view of the medical world. To say that a DDS/DMD will have "some trouble making a living" is absolutely absurd.
Let me enlighten you with some numbers:
The income of a DDS is the only income of the catergories you've mentioned which has risen each year for the past 16 years. In 1986 a general dentist's net income was $69k while a specialist earned $97k. In the year 2000, an average general dentist earned $158k while a specialist earned $241k. No other medical profession has seen a constant rise in income. Further, MD/DOs find themselves working harder and longer to make the same salaries they made 5 years ago. Vacations are limited and work weeks are increasing, and salaries are still falling (in regards to most specialities). Those specialties that are still raking in big $$ are faced with confrontations from allied health professionals (such as a nurse anes. making 75% of what an MD anes. makes).
In 2000, the average net income of new independent general practitioners is $135k. The net income of new independent specialists averaged $210k in 1998. "New" refers to a DDS who graduated from school less than 2 years ago.
Although it may seem unfathomable to you (I've noticed you seem to worship the "M.D." letters) those "new" DDS specialists who earn on average $210,000 are those same "new" specialists who work an average of 31 hours a week.
Whatever figures you choose: $135,000 or $210,000 -- it is hardly true that new dentists are having trouble making a living. And, for what it is worth, the salary and lifestyle of a DDS will only continue to become better. Dentistry is the only medical profession which isn't infringed upon by other medical professionals. Essentially, dentistry is merely a medical specialty -- some choose rads, some eyes, some teeth
. Certainly we are each entitled to our opinions and facts may be skewed to better nearly any cause -- but it is no longer an undisputed case that MDs are at the top of the totem pole. Also, I've appreciated the insights and thoughts that you have posted in this forum and the other forums. Good luck with your MD acceptance.
-G
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Just one correction, Gavin, I worship nothing.
Personally, I want to be an MD or DO because I feel that in order to attain these titles, you need to go through a complete medical education. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. And no worshiping. I feel that to truly call your self a "physician" you need to complete one of these medical tracks.
I'm probably wrong when I said that one would have "some" trouble finding work as a dentist. I only said that because, in my opinion, a DDS is less likely to find a position at a good salary in a group like an MD or DO would. My impression is that DDS's are more apt to set up a solo practice than an MD or DO and have a tougher time of it. In addition, I found a web site that listed doctors who have defaulted on their HEAL loans and DDS's were #3 behind MD's and DO's (in order of least likely to default...DPM's were next followed by DC's who had a pretty high default rate). I think the site is <a href="http://www.defaulteddocsl.com." target="_blank">www.defaulteddocsl.com.</a> Just my impression and you, obviously, have a better grasp of the statistics than I do.
And I do agree with you that there is no competition (except that there are a whole lot of DDS's to compete with).
Personally, I want to be an MD or DO because I feel that in order to attain these titles, you need to go through a complete medical education. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. And no worshiping. I feel that to truly call your self a "physician" you need to complete one of these medical tracks.
I'm probably wrong when I said that one would have "some" trouble finding work as a dentist. I only said that because, in my opinion, a DDS is less likely to find a position at a good salary in a group like an MD or DO would. My impression is that DDS's are more apt to set up a solo practice than an MD or DO and have a tougher time of it. In addition, I found a web site that listed doctors who have defaulted on their HEAL loans and DDS's were #3 behind MD's and DO's (in order of least likely to default...DPM's were next followed by DC's who had a pretty high default rate). I think the site is <a href="http://www.defaulteddocsl.com." target="_blank">www.defaulteddocsl.com.</a> Just my impression and you, obviously, have a better grasp of the statistics than I do.
And I do agree with you that there is no competition (except that there are a whole lot of DDS's to compete with).
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You will be making about $90k as an associate when you graduate from school working for a chain such as Coast Dental. They will be working your ass off sending tons of patients your way. It's unlikely that a fresh grad can open up a practice upon graduation with loan payment and the cost of an office. While I don't dispute your findings about the avg salary, I believe that comes from solo practice. There are no guarantees in life and this is certainly true of dentistry. You can either do incredible well or go belly up in your practice. Many factors come into play such as patient pool, type of tx, staff, and location. If you wanna do well in dentistry, you gotta be a good businessman to keep your business afloat. Doctors on the other hand can work in hospitals and still make a very decent living w/o having to worry about recruiting new patients. I don't blame you Toejam if you do "worship" the MD/DO title. About ? of my classmates in dental school wanted to be doctors(myself included), but couldn't gain admission into med school and settled for dentistry.
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Thanks, Dolan
I miswrote the web site that I found the default info. on. It should read <a href="http://www.defaulteddocs.com" target="_blank">www.defaulteddocs.com</a> I think I put an "l" in there erroneously.
That's kind of the way that I look at the situation, Dolan. MD's and DO's usually don't have to worry about soliciting patients to earn a living. They have enough job offers around the country in hospitals and group practices to where they aren't required to have a lot of start up money or have to scramble to find patients. Dentists are probably next in line followed by DPM's and, finally, chiropractors who have to be the best business people of all. And, if your figures are correct about the 90k, that's a whole lot better than what a DPM can expect. I'm assuming that Coast Dental pays for other things like health insurance, malpractice insurance, vacation, sick leave, etc?? I'd say that only about 1-2 % of all graduating pod residents would be lucky enough to find such a sweet situation as that. And our debt load may even be larger, as a group, seeing that there are many state sponsored dental schools (lower cost) and no state schools in podiatry.
Besides that, I would say that at least 75-80% of all podiatry students wanted to be MD or DO students. And I say 75-80% to be "PC", but I REALLY think that the figure is more like 95-99%. Frankly, I can't remember ONE student in my class who professed an overwhelming desire to be a DPM over an MD or DO. And, if they did, I've never, ever heard any sort of convincing rationale as to why one would rather practice podiatry than, say, orthopedic medicine. I ran into a lot who were in denial, but only a few who would admit that they'd rather be at UCSF or Stanford. I never had any trouble admitting the obvious. I always maintained that I'd rather be in MD or DO school, but lacked the numbers to matriculate. I'm secure enough with my abilities and intelligence to say this.
That being said, there are a lot of excellent podiatrists out there who know a whole lot more about the foot and ankle than anyone else. Unfortunately, DPM's are still struggling for recognition and respect and are witnessing the gradual erosion of their specialty via managed care and competition from a huge variety of sources.
I miswrote the web site that I found the default info. on. It should read <a href="http://www.defaulteddocs.com" target="_blank">www.defaulteddocs.com</a> I think I put an "l" in there erroneously.
That's kind of the way that I look at the situation, Dolan. MD's and DO's usually don't have to worry about soliciting patients to earn a living. They have enough job offers around the country in hospitals and group practices to where they aren't required to have a lot of start up money or have to scramble to find patients. Dentists are probably next in line followed by DPM's and, finally, chiropractors who have to be the best business people of all. And, if your figures are correct about the 90k, that's a whole lot better than what a DPM can expect. I'm assuming that Coast Dental pays for other things like health insurance, malpractice insurance, vacation, sick leave, etc?? I'd say that only about 1-2 % of all graduating pod residents would be lucky enough to find such a sweet situation as that. And our debt load may even be larger, as a group, seeing that there are many state sponsored dental schools (lower cost) and no state schools in podiatry.
Besides that, I would say that at least 75-80% of all podiatry students wanted to be MD or DO students. And I say 75-80% to be "PC", but I REALLY think that the figure is more like 95-99%. Frankly, I can't remember ONE student in my class who professed an overwhelming desire to be a DPM over an MD or DO. And, if they did, I've never, ever heard any sort of convincing rationale as to why one would rather practice podiatry than, say, orthopedic medicine. I ran into a lot who were in denial, but only a few who would admit that they'd rather be at UCSF or Stanford. I never had any trouble admitting the obvious. I always maintained that I'd rather be in MD or DO school, but lacked the numbers to matriculate. I'm secure enough with my abilities and intelligence to say this.
That being said, there are a lot of excellent podiatrists out there who know a whole lot more about the foot and ankle than anyone else. Unfortunately, DPM's are still struggling for recognition and respect and are witnessing the gradual erosion of their specialty via managed care and competition from a huge variety of sources.
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Toejam,
Thanks for your response -- as usual it was well written and mature, which is a valuable commodity these days. I certainly meant no malice towards you with my post.
Dolan,
I'm sorry that you had to "settle" for dentistry -- I wish you the best of luck in your pursuits. As I stated before, dentists are very much doctors -- there aren't any medical specialties dealing with teeth other than dentists! Often the choice is difficult, however, since med students have several years to choose a specialty while dental students have essentially chosen a medical specialty upon matriculating into school.
Also, $90,000 isn't too shabby upon graduation considering an MD will be workin through 3-7 years of residency with a $25-40k pay. Not to mention that the hours that such an organization like Coast Dental throws at new graduates are still likely to be 20-25 hours a week less than a med school resident.
I've learned that there are no gurantees in life, and the crap flies both ways. My father has been an OB/GYN for 23 years. In the late 80s he was bringing home $300,000 and spending 4-5 weeks year on vacation. Currently he works 150% of the hours he worked then, gets 1 week of vacation, and brings home $120,000. HMOs and insurance have undoubtedly cut into the lifestyle of the MD. Given the current health care market, it's no surprise that med. students are flocking to specialties which give them some resemblance of a normal lifestyle: rads, eyes, anes, etc.
Of course things change, but the climate right now has never been better for a dentist. Fees are up all across the board, quality of lifestyle is skyrocketing, and cosmetic procedures are bringing in more patients than ever before. Since 1999, the average income of a general dentist has surpassed the average income of a physician.
Toejam, I understand your thoughts about receiving a complete medical education, however 95% of that education falls by the wayside upon entering a practice. There's a reason that rads don't perform surgery, and a reason that psychiatrists don't deliver babies -- it's the same reason that dentists don't deliver babies.
But I digress -- I wish that those DPMs who were masters of their field received more respect and were better integrated into the health-care field. We would all be better off for it and many problems could be alleviated in a more efficient manner.
-G
Thanks for your response -- as usual it was well written and mature, which is a valuable commodity these days. I certainly meant no malice towards you with my post.
Dolan,
I'm sorry that you had to "settle" for dentistry -- I wish you the best of luck in your pursuits. As I stated before, dentists are very much doctors -- there aren't any medical specialties dealing with teeth other than dentists! Often the choice is difficult, however, since med students have several years to choose a specialty while dental students have essentially chosen a medical specialty upon matriculating into school.
Also, $90,000 isn't too shabby upon graduation considering an MD will be workin through 3-7 years of residency with a $25-40k pay. Not to mention that the hours that such an organization like Coast Dental throws at new graduates are still likely to be 20-25 hours a week less than a med school resident.
I've learned that there are no gurantees in life, and the crap flies both ways. My father has been an OB/GYN for 23 years. In the late 80s he was bringing home $300,000 and spending 4-5 weeks year on vacation. Currently he works 150% of the hours he worked then, gets 1 week of vacation, and brings home $120,000. HMOs and insurance have undoubtedly cut into the lifestyle of the MD. Given the current health care market, it's no surprise that med. students are flocking to specialties which give them some resemblance of a normal lifestyle: rads, eyes, anes, etc.
Of course things change, but the climate right now has never been better for a dentist. Fees are up all across the board, quality of lifestyle is skyrocketing, and cosmetic procedures are bringing in more patients than ever before. Since 1999, the average income of a general dentist has surpassed the average income of a physician.
Toejam, I understand your thoughts about receiving a complete medical education, however 95% of that education falls by the wayside upon entering a practice. There's a reason that rads don't perform surgery, and a reason that psychiatrists don't deliver babies -- it's the same reason that dentists don't deliver babies.
But I digress -- I wish that those DPMs who were masters of their field received more respect and were better integrated into the health-care field. We would all be better off for it and many problems could be alleviated in a more efficient manner.
-G
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Dolan, thanks for the comments. Just to let you know; I'm going on 41, have about 170k in podiatry school debt, spent untold years to get into pod school, spent 5 long years to get out and I'm STILL going to go back to medical school to finish what I started.
The way I see it is I'd rather put myself through Hell now then find myself at age 60 with regrets and questions about "what if"?
Thanks, also, Gavin. I try to be honest and helpful.
The way I see it is I'd rather put myself through Hell now then find myself at age 60 with regrets and questions about "what if"?
Thanks, also, Gavin. I try to be honest and helpful.
DesiDentist
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by Toejam:
•I think it's pretty simple why someone would pursue podiatry today. It's because they really want to a) be a doctor, or b) be called "doctor". Simple as that. And, for one reason or another they were unable to get into DO or MD school. Podiatry schools will literally take anyone into their fold.
Stinky's right, too. The pods who have been out for 15 years plus are generally doing ok. This is because they've established their own practice and have likely hooked up with one or more nursing homes, which is really easy money. They also have a good referral base and are already on a host of plans. Recent grads not only have MUCH more debt, but they're finding that it isn't as easy to get established, get onto plans, find a vacant nursing home and get any referrals.
Here's the way I look at the medical world:
MD - No problem getting work
DO - Almost no problem getting work
DDS - Some trouble making a living.
DPM - A lot of trouble making a living.
DC - Fugitaboutit.
DVM - Can find work, but can't make any money.•••••Dentists having a hard time finding work, YEAH right. Don't assume, look at the statistics. More people go to a dentist than to a physician.at least 2X a year.Don't post crap like this to discourage others. It all depends on you...i f you want it bad enough you could make a good enough living.
DesiDentist
•I think it's pretty simple why someone would pursue podiatry today. It's because they really want to a) be a doctor, or b) be called "doctor". Simple as that. And, for one reason or another they were unable to get into DO or MD school. Podiatry schools will literally take anyone into their fold.
Stinky's right, too. The pods who have been out for 15 years plus are generally doing ok. This is because they've established their own practice and have likely hooked up with one or more nursing homes, which is really easy money. They also have a good referral base and are already on a host of plans. Recent grads not only have MUCH more debt, but they're finding that it isn't as easy to get established, get onto plans, find a vacant nursing home and get any referrals.
Here's the way I look at the medical world:
MD - No problem getting work
DO - Almost no problem getting work
DDS - Some trouble making a living.
DPM - A lot of trouble making a living.
DC - Fugitaboutit.
DVM - Can find work, but can't make any money.•••••Dentists having a hard time finding work, YEAH right. Don't assume, look at the statistics. More people go to a dentist than to a physician.at least 2X a year.Don't post crap like this to discourage others. It all depends on you...i f you want it bad enough you could make a good enough living.
DesiDentist
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I disagree with you Toejam on the no job outlook,I know quite a few people who just got out of PSR-12 and 24s who have found good employement. I generally do agree on various issues with you but do you think this might be more isolated there in California because I hear the insurance situation there is one of, if not, the worst in the country?
To the dental community out there, I know students first hand finishing their perio residencies complain a great deal about starting out as an associate because they usually get stuck with a person who uses the hell out of them. This however should subside within a few years of getting to know the business aspect of dentistry and branching out on your own. Bottom line is you will make a ton of money in the long run.
To the dental community out there, I know students first hand finishing their perio residencies complain a great deal about starting out as an associate because they usually get stuck with a person who uses the hell out of them. This however should subside within a few years of getting to know the business aspect of dentistry and branching out on your own. Bottom line is you will make a ton of money in the long run.
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Desidentist: RELAX! I said, "this is the way I see it". I didn't say, "the following is the gospel of all reality so take heed!!!"
I'm sure that it's a whole lot easier to find work as a dentist than a DPM.
But your statistic that people see dentists on average twice a year says little to me. There are a lot of dentists in our country and, I would suspect, most of them concentrated in the finer areas of the U.S. You seem to imply that all dentists are busy and all dentists are making a good living.
You know more than I do so please enlighten me.
I added a post from one of your own below.
You will be making about $90k as an associate when you graduate from school working for a chain such as Coast Dental. They will be working your ass off sending tons of patients your way. It's unlikely that a fresh grad can open up a practice upon graduation with loan payment and the cost of an office. While I don't dispute your findings about the avg salary, I believe that comes from solo practice. There are no guarantees in life and this is certainly true of dentistry. You can either do incredible well or go belly up in your practice. Many factors come into play such as patient pool, type of tx, staff, and location. If you wanna do well in dentistry, you gotta be a good businessman to keep your business afloat. Doctors on the other hand can work in hospitals and still make a very decent living w/o having to worry about recruiting new patients. I don't blame you Toejam if you do "worship" the MD/DO title. About ? of my classmates in dental school wanted to be doctors(myself included), but couldn't gain admission into med school and settled for dentistry.
I'm sure that it's a whole lot easier to find work as a dentist than a DPM.
But your statistic that people see dentists on average twice a year says little to me. There are a lot of dentists in our country and, I would suspect, most of them concentrated in the finer areas of the U.S. You seem to imply that all dentists are busy and all dentists are making a good living.
You know more than I do so please enlighten me.
I added a post from one of your own below.
You will be making about $90k as an associate when you graduate from school working for a chain such as Coast Dental. They will be working your ass off sending tons of patients your way. It's unlikely that a fresh grad can open up a practice upon graduation with loan payment and the cost of an office. While I don't dispute your findings about the avg salary, I believe that comes from solo practice. There are no guarantees in life and this is certainly true of dentistry. You can either do incredible well or go belly up in your practice. Many factors come into play such as patient pool, type of tx, staff, and location. If you wanna do well in dentistry, you gotta be a good businessman to keep your business afloat. Doctors on the other hand can work in hospitals and still make a very decent living w/o having to worry about recruiting new patients. I don't blame you Toejam if you do "worship" the MD/DO title. About ? of my classmates in dental school wanted to be doctors(myself included), but couldn't gain admission into med school and settled for dentistry.
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Just for all of our info, Dolan attends (in his estimation) a horrible dental school with horrible professors, etc. etc. In his own words, he "settled" for the dental profession. How happy could he be if that was the case?
I appreciate what was said about the perio residents not looking forward to being work horses for a couple of years -- but that still beats an MD residency in terms of money and quality of life!!
-G
I appreciate what was said about the perio residents not looking forward to being work horses for a couple of years -- but that still beats an MD residency in terms of money and quality of life!!
-G
