Moratorium on URM bashing/affirmative action threads

[mdvargas]

I was talking as a group. As a group URMs are URMs because they were not able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Were asians not able to cut it, they too would be part of the URMs.

This is why we need afirmative action, because some groups can't cut it.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "can't cut it". It can be interpreted in many ways, give an example.

Another thing I realized after joining this forum is that some people believe the URM's have it easier in some way or another. I think they face the same fears, stress, and odds against the overall competition as the applicant who isn't URM status. To me, URM status is not a ticket that forgives a low MCAT/GPA but an opportunity to contribute and be part of the diversity of the class and eventually in the community they will be practicing.

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[1Path]

OK, so who wants to add their username to the list of those who are tired of these same old AA/ anti-URM threads being posted every week.

1Path

1Path

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'm curious as to what you mean by "can't cut it". It can be interpreted in many ways, give an example.

Another thing I realized after joining this forum is that some people believe the URM's have it easier in some way or another. I think they face the same fears, stress, and odds against the overall competition as the applicant who isn't URM status. To me, URM status is not a ticket that forgives a low MCAT/GPA but an opportunity to contribute and be part of the diversity of the class and eventually in the community they will be practicing.

But URM status does (somewhat) forgive lower numbers. If it didn't how would you reconcile the fact that the average african-american matriculant has lower numbers than the average white applicant.

You can thank AA for this. Since people know this, they are going to assume that every black doctor got in because he/she is black, not because he/she deserved to be there. They will then continue this assumption along the road through residency and figure they are a less competent doc.

 

[mdvargas]

That is mostly right. What I meant was that when some people think URM, they immediately conclude low numerical stats rather than the whole picture and what being URM status is really about.

 

[Instatewaiter]

That is mostly right. What I meant was that when some people think URM, they immediately conclude low numerical stats rather than the whole picture and what being URM status is really about.

Basically all of my posts were trying to do 2 things: be intentionally inflammatory to hijack the thread and do exactly what path1 didnt want (which I feel I did sucessfully), and to try to get at the notion that if as a group, a certain race does not have the numbers to get into med school get at the root of the problem (lower down in the education path) don't just let them in and say 'oh well'.

Letting a few extra URM docs in that would not have gotten in on their own merits does more to harm the preception of that race and the URM docs that belong in medicne than the good that the few extra URM docs will do.

 

[1Path]

OK, so who wants to add their username to the list of those who are tired of these same old AA/ anti-URM threads being posted every week.

1Path

1Path

 

[mdvargas]

Basically all of my posts were trying to do 2 things: be intentionally inflammatory to hijack the thread and do exactly what path1 didnt want (which I feel I did sucessfully), and to try to get at the notion that if as a group, a certain race does not have the numbers to get into med school get at the root of the problem (lower down in the education path) don't just let them in and say 'oh well'.

Letting a few extra URM docs in that would not have gotten in on their own merits does more to harm the preception of that race and the URM docs that belong in medicne than the good that the few extra URM docs will do.

Well I wish your notion was part of the AA package rather than all the madness about who could get in or not and under what circumstances.

 

[estairella]

Those who support URM/AA Debates:

myleghurts
George Bush
Clarence Thomas
trozman

Not that I even participate in them, but I do believe in free speech. URM/AA applies to some medical admissions processes whether you like it or not, so it IS applicable to this forum.

 

[Instatewaiter]

OK, so who wants to add their username to the list of those who are tired of these same old AA/ anti-URM threads being posted every week.

1Path

First off I would like to reiterate that being anti-AA is not the same as being anti-URM. You could feel that AA does more to harm perception of URMs, or even that AA distorts the meritocracy of the american education system, or you could feel like the basis of AA, that every group deserves to be equally proportionately represented in medicine, is in itself flawwed. None of these anti-AA ideas are anti-URM.


Secondly, with all of the recent changes in Afirmative action, especially with regard to med admissions it would be good idea to discuss AA here in the pre-allo forum.

 

[1Path]

duplicate

 

[1Path]

First off I would like to reiterate that being anti-AA is not the same as being anti-URM. None of these anti-AA ideas are anti-URM..

There ARE insults to URMs in THIS thread which is of course typical of how these debates invoolving URM's tend to go.

Secondly, with all of the recent changes in Afirmative action, especially with regard to med admissions it would be good idea to discuss AA here in the pre-allo forum.

Why? Do the changes in the laws affect the way ANY premed prepares for med school? I seriously doubt it, which is why 2 million threads on the topic are a COMPLETE waste of time. People who don't get what they want are simply looking for a scapegoat.

 

[Dookter]

People who don't get what they want are simply looking for a scapegoat.

I think this thread is stupid, mostly b/c there are very complicated and serious social issues that could be discussed, but no one is discussing them. It's a very complicated and interesting topic, but I am not really sure of its usefulness here.

Beyond that, I would like to disagree with the statement I quoted above. Sometimes this statement could be true, but most of the time I find it is not true. Many people get what they want, AND complain about what they do not agree with. If you look around, there are plenty of people getting into medical school who disagree with AA policies.

And I also think anyone has the right to see the policies as justice/injustice/whatever. But what I do not see as OK is to think you are being treated unfairly if you do not get into medical school with sub-par stats while some people do through AA programs. If AA programs did not exist, you would still not be admitted to medical school with sub-par stats. So it might be an advantage to URMs, but it is no disadvantage to non-URMs with sub-par stats. That said, a person on the edge of getting in who gets rejected with stats higher than a URM has a legitimate complaint. As they say, I don't have a dog in that fight, so I'm staying out of it.

Sorry for the rambling, but I really disagree with the sentiment that the only people against AA are people who can't get what they want and have to blame someone for it. For the most part, I support AA policies [but I'll admit I would rather see them altered to incorporate individual situation more than individual skin color]. But the argument where one side gets pissed over AA policies and the other side just says, "Oh, you're just pissed b/c you can't get in..." is pretty flawed.

 

[dutchman]

For the love of GOD let the URMs in and stop whinning. We need to
infiltrate every community out there so they can relate more to the plight doctors.
Like I said in the other thread they make up 30% of the voting
population(and growing),and if they are not represented
in medicine you will allow suckers like this
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/tortreformstudypr31104.pdf
to manipulate them against you. That is how John Edwards was able to run his blitz on doctors in North Carolina.
We are not even talking about medicare/medicaid reimbursement which sets the tone for how other insurance companies will pay you, all controlled by congress(ie voters). One strike of the pen and this whole party will turn into a funeral.
You think that hispanic guy who has never seen a hispanic doctor in his
life is going to able to relate to you when you walk up to him and say "sir can you vote for tort reform so we can reduce doctor lawsuits" or "can you vote to increase funding so we can pay resident doctors more than $10/hr".
If you want to keep an all white/asian medical workforce then prepare your
ass for a good pounding in the hands of your "government".

 

[1Path]

OK, so who wants to add their username to the list of those who are tired of these same old AA/ anti-URM threads being posted every week.

1Path

1Path

 

[Zerodegree]

Basically all of my posts were trying to do 2 things: be intentionally inflammatory to hijack the thread and do exactly what path1 didnt want (which I feel I did sucessfully), and to try to get at the notion that if as a group, a certain race does not have the numbers to get into med school get at the root of the problem (lower down in the education path) don't just let them in and say 'oh well'.

Letting a few extra URM docs in that would not have gotten in on their own merits does more to harm the preception of that race and the URM docs that belong in medicne than the good that the few extra URM docs will do.

Do you have any data to back up your second paragraph?

That is other than your own personal (and I'm sure rigorously researched) "perception" of apparently underqualifed URMs outweighing the benefit they can impart to the community?

 

[1Path]

I would like to state that I wish ALL AA threads and those which insult URMs be greatly reduced.

 

[learss]

1Path

learss79

I completely believe in the 1st amendment, but these insults against URMs are getting ridiculous. In order to have an actual debate, people must have an open mind and I never see that on any of these anti-AA threads. It is always the same bitter people complaining how URMs are "taking" their seats in medical school.

 

[1Path]

learss79

I completely believe in the 1st amendment, but these insults against URMs are getting ridiculous. In order to have an actual debate, people must have an open mind and I never see that on any of these anti-AA threads. It is always the same bitter people complaining how URMs are "taking" their seats in medical school.

1Path
learss79

Anyoen else care to join in? Man, I have a Gap Band song echoing in my head "Don't miss that train...da da da da ......Don't miss that party train................ da da da da da......

Now THAT would be a useful thread. Favorite Gap Band song!

 

[Zerodegree]

1Path
learss79

Anyoen else care to join in? Man, I have a Gap Band song echoing in my head "Don't miss that train...da da da da ......Don't miss that party train da da da da da......

I'm in

 

[1Path]

1Path
learss79
Zerodegree

And I'm nominating the song "Outstanding" by the Gap Band for theme song of this thread!!!Somebody pass me my Ipod! Watch out, ya'll (shout out to my southern homies), I see a conga line starting up on SDN!!!

PS- We need a smiley for jammin!

 

[Instatewaiter]

Do you have any data to back up your second paragraph?

That is other than your own personal (and I'm sure rigorously researched) "perception" of apparently underqualifed URMs outweighing the benefit they can impart to the community?

Nice and condescending post Zero. There is no reliable data to point you in one direction or the other. The bias inherent in a study would be too great and almost impossible to control for.
You of course have no data to disprove my second paragraph or you would have posted it. Go talk to a few black docs and see what they say. They unquestionably have faced lots of people questioning their qualifications just because they are black and people know AA exists.

A question back at you: If your father had to undergo a dangerous surgery and there were 2 surgeons to choose from, a white one and a URM one, Without having anyother info about the surgeons which would you pick. Unfortunately most would say the white one because the perception that a URM doctor might not have done it all on his own merits. Get rid of AA and you get rid of this feeling.

Zero, I think you misunderstood my post. The benefit I was talking about had nothing to do with the community they serve. Replace the URM doc with a non-URM doc and you get the same service to the community. I was refering to the extra URM docs changing the perception of URMs in medicine. They will have little impact compared to the overwhelming burden that AA puts on URM docs.

An extra 3 URM docs at each school will do less to change perception than replacing AA with a complete meritocracy.

 

[1Path]

Nice and condescending post Zero. There is no reliable data to point you in one direction or the other. The bias inherent in a study would be too great and almost impossible to control for.
You of course have no data to disprove my second paragraph or you would have posted it. Go talk to a few black docs and see what they say. They unquestionably have faced lots of people questioning their qualifications just because they are black and people know AA exists.

A question back at you: If your father had to undergo a dangerous surgery and there were 2 surgeons to choose from, a white one and a URM one, Without having anyother info about the surgeons which would you pick. Unfortunately most would say the white one because the perception that a URM doctor might not have done it all on his own merits. Get rid of AA and you get rid of this feeling.

Zero, I think you misunderstood my post. The benefit I was talking about had nothing to do with the community they serve. Replace the URM doc with a non-URM doc and you get the same service to the community. I was refering to the extra URM docs changing the perception of URMs in medicine. They will have little impact compared to the overwhelming burden that AA puts on URM docs.

An extra 3 URM docs at each school will do less to change perception than replacing AA with a complete meritocracy.

What's REAL interesting to me is that SOMEONE reported to moderators that I put spam in this thread. I believe the statement was they "bothersome". Yet, the 3 million threads on AA which are equally "bothersome" are considered legitimate discussions. Wow!!!

 

[QuantumMechanic]

The OP started another dumb thread about AA/URMs...that has once again spiraled into another long session of group mental masturbation...way to go idiot

 

[1Path]

Moderators, would it be too much trouble to remove all the name calling posts?

So do we have anyone else who wants to join the list of folks tired of the URM NAME CALLING and AA threads?

1Path
learss79
Zerodegree

 

[istream]

Is there ANY way to put a stop to these weekly AA threads? I mean really, the overwhelming majority of the URM's I know could care less if folks around here think they are beneficiaries of AA. Not only that, I serioulsy doubt those students who aren't URM's and who have solid applications worry about AA either. So at the end of the day, is ANY ones application to med school improved by these discussions which is supposed to be the purpose of pre-allo?

Free speech is one thing but geez, give it a break already!

how does this thread help putting an end to it?

 

[1Path]

how does this thread help putting an end to it?

By drawing some attention to the problem which at least one moderator (thanks bananaface) has responded to.

FYI, NO group of people have to be REPEATEDLY subjected to this bull crap visiting a premed site and if YOU were a minority that was being singled out negatively ALL THE TIME, you'd speak out too but it does takes cahones to do that!

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Moderators, would it be too much trouble to remove all the name calling posts?

So do we have anyone else who wants to join the list of folks tired of the URM NAME CALLING and AA threads?

1Path
learss79
Zerodegree

My calling you an idiot was not an ad hominem attack, it was based off of your actions...its stupid to start such a thread since you know its just going to turn into arguments for and against AA.

If you were smart and wanted to get your way, you should just keep quiet and let such thread die rather than starting them.

 

[Zerodegree]

Nice and condescending post Zero. There is no reliable data to point you in one direction or the other. The bias inherent in a study would be too great and almost impossible to control for.
You of course have no data to disprove my second paragraph or you would have posted it. Go talk to a few black docs and see what they say. They unquestionably have faced lots of people questioning their qualifications just because they are black and people know AA exists.

I apologize if the tone of my post was cynical. But I'm also not here to pander to your emotions (I know ironic in a future medical student) when it seems like you're belittling the benefits made by URMs to medicine (https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...version53.pdf&prd_id=133&prv_id=154&pdf_id=53) It's long I know, but please read page 11. These are documented statements though the actual studies are not listed.

A question back at you: If your father had to undergo a dangerous surgery and there were 2 surgeons to choose from, a white one and a URM one, Without having anyother info about the surgeons which would you pick. Unfortunately most would say the white one because the perception that a URM doctor might not have done it all on his own merits. Get rid of AA and you get rid of this feeling.

Again, you seem to be focusing on the detriment to perception of URMs over their contribution to the community ("does more harm than...the good a few good URM docs will do"). And what's more alarming is that you're basing this on anecdotal evidence of "most" people choosing a white surgeon over a black one. I would have no problem choosing a URM surgeon for an operation on my dad (I'm not a URM).
Insinuating that I would be comprising my father's surgery is unfounded to me unless you can show me a statistic that black/hispanic surgeons have a higher mortality rate than white surgeons. (you also seem to be implying these surgeons are men and I have no trouble choosing a women URM/white either by the same rationality).

Zero, I think you misunderstood my post. The benefit I was talking about had nothing to do with the community they serve. Replace the URM doc with a non-URM doc and you get the same service to the community. I was refering to the extra URM docs changing the perception of URMs in medicine. They will have little impact compared to the overwhelming burden that AA puts on URM docs.

Replace the URM doc with a non-URM and I disagree that you get the same service (or likelihood of the same service) to an underprivileged community or the benefits of diversity (and I don't just mean socioeconomic diversity, I mean ethnic diversity) that I would like to see in my med school class. (for evidence again see p. 11 of above link).

An extra 3 URM docs at each school will do less to change perception than replacing AA with a complete meritocracy.

Replace AA with a complete meritocracy and you will get a dispropportionate increase in asian enrollement at the expense of white and URM enrollement, which does not accurately represent or cater appropriately to the us population. (http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8366426)-PM me if you can't get access to this article.

 

[1Path]

My calling you an idiot was not an ad hominem attack, it was based off of your actions...its stupid to start such a thread since you know its just going to turn into arguments for and against AA..

Ad hominem? Is that the new term for sucker punch?

This is a legitimate attempt to put AA threads/URM bashing to rest. I haven't presented 1 argument for or aginst AA here. I simply want the "ad hominem" and other name calling of URM's to be put to rest or in another place.

 

[MWillie]

I think AA is bad for medicine and bad for the nation. Reverse discrimination at its best.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

I Replace AA with a complete meritocracy and you will get a dispropportionate increase in asian enrollement at the expense of white and URM enrollement, which does not accurately represent or cater appropriately to the us population. (http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8366426)-PM me if you can't get access to this article.

"In 1925, 0.81% of Jews were active as civil servants or in the army and navy, as opposed to 2.3% of the general population. In the church, religious occupations, the legal system and the other independent professions, the Jewish percentage is 4.3% as opposed to 2% of the general population. This shows that the Jews are over-represented when compared to the general population, particularly in the independent professions.

In summary, Jewish occupational patterns differ from those of the rest of the population. Jewry seems to have an aversion to agricultural work, industrial labor and crafts. They are greatly over-represented in commerce and transportation, including the entire banking system. They are also over-represented in the independent professions and the health care system. These figures alone demonstrate a clear difference between the native German population and alien Jewry."

"It's a sordid business, this divvying us up by race" -- Chief Justice Roberts

 

[Instatewaiter]

when it seems like you're belittling the benefits made by URMs to medicine (https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...version53.pdf&prd_id=133&prv_id=154&pdf_id=53) It's long I know, but please read page 11. These are documented statements though the actual studies are not listed.

Again, you seem to be focusing on the detriment to perception of URMs over their contribution to the community ("does more harm than...the good a few good URM docs will do").

Insinuating that I would be comprising my father's surgery is unfounded to me unless you can show me a statistic that black/hispanic surgeons have a higher mortality rate than white surgeons.

Replace the URM doc with a non-URM and I disagree that you get the same service to an underprivileged community or the benefits of diversity that I would like to see in my med school class. (for evidence again see p. 11 of above link).

Replace AA with a complete meritocracy and you will get a dispropportionate increase in asian enrollement at the expense of white and URM enrollement, which does not accurately represent or cater appropriately to the us population. (http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8366426)-PM me if you can't get access to this article.

First off I was not insinuating anything about the 2 hypothetical surgeons just pointing to a problem in perception caused in part by AA. Also I definatly was not belittling the benefits made by URMs. "Ohh look at me... I'm a URM, I help people and I am a minority. I deserve some sort of medal. If I were white people would say, 'Oh that is what she/he's supposed to do' but in fact I am a URM thus deserve a medal." (That was me belittling benefits made by URMs, see the difference?)

Yeah still no data and your study has very little to do with what my point was. Don't think anyone is challanging that URMs tend to go to underserved areas a bit more than their non-URM counterparts. Couldnt gain access to the second one. Your first 'study' is also from AAMC who blatantly support AA. Not exactly unbiased especially in the methodologies. It was basically saying that URMs help because they go to those areas. Big surprise. Made no mention of the harms of AA.

I'm talking about taking away all logical reasons people may have to distrust a URM physician and thus instill more confidence in our URM docs and you are fighting me on it? Also I think there was a miscommuncation; I was not talking about harm the actual URMs were doing but rather the harmful effect of AA. Sure those few docs will make a positive difference to their communities but it is not proportional to the amt of harm AA does to confidence in our URM docs.

I dont understand how people support AA. It's really insulting to URMs. It essentially says, "we know you can't do it on your own so we'll give you a boost." How does that sit well with people?

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Or maybe people who have their act together don't have to complain about NOT getting into med school.

uh many people have their act together and still get rejected or waitlisted and wonder why and would like anything to help or at least not hurt them. or didn't you realize med school admissions were competitive?

 

[Psycho Doctor]

There is a 95% chance you are a minority.

i'd give him a 99%

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Then perhaps having your act together explains WHY you don't complain in THOSE threads!

i had my act together when i apllied, got into plenty of schools and I totally disagree with AA because it serves to discriminate and provides benefits to certain races, not to the underpriviledged like it should....

 

[Psycho Doctor]

And there's a 100% chance the overwhelming majority of the members of following websites, Mommd, Oldpremeds, ValueMD are NOT minority, yet they don't complain about AA. Hmmmmmm................ Ya know, by focusing on IMPROVING their apps to med school, they may actually be on to something!

then perhaps you'd enjoy those sites more than this one.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Or maybe people who have their act together don't have to complain about NOT getting into med school.

Kind of like.....I made a 20Q on the MCAT...but I don't score well on standardized tests...right?

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

So I guess the folks on Minorities in Research and Medicine, Oldpremeds, Mommd, and ValueMD dont' care about their civil rights? Black folks that don't care about civil rights? I guess that's new one on me.

Maybe we just choose to focus on things that will actually HELP our applications to med school, like MCAT prep courses, EC's, personal statements, and LOR's

You wish to violate the civil rights of applicants who do not share your skin color. So, yes, you do not care about civil rights.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

1Path

why do you keep posting the same thing; obviously you're alone. drop it; this thread just encouraged what you supposedly wanted to stop.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

First off I would like to reiterate that being anti-AA is not the same as being anti-URM. You could feel that AA does more to harm perception of URMs, or even that AA distorts the meritocracy of the american education system, or you could feel like the basis of AA, that every group deserves to be equally proportionately represented in medicine, is in itself flawwed. None of these anti-AA ideas are anti-URM.


Secondly, with all of the recent changes in Afirmative action, especially with regard to med admissions it would be good idea to discuss AA here in the pre-allo forum.

totally agree

 

[dutchman]

There are only 4 members interested in this thread and you know yourselves, so why don't you guys just PM each other and save us the AA talk. This is a pointless/endless argument.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Why don't you just not click on the link, dutchman

 

[Instatewaiter]

Wow, apparently that guy in the link above goes to my school.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

There are only 4 members interested in this thread and you know yourselves, so why don't you guys just PM each other and save us the AA talk. This is a pointless/endless argument.

Endless, perhaps. But certainly not pointless.

Parents v. Seattle School Distict

It's going to be groundbreaking, my friend.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Wow, apparently that guy in the link above goes to my school.

Do you know him?

 

[1Path]

obviously you're alone. drop it; this thread just encouraged what you supposedly wanted to stop.

Born alone, die alone, I that's how it goes, but good thing I dont' have a problem STANDING alone. Doubt you could, ad hominem group thinker! Opps, I guess some of you mediocre apps folks will get together and PM the moderators about the offensive nature of this thread/post and get me infractionated AGAIN.

So far there are 4 of us on this "Party-train". Any others????

 

[kdburton]

Or maybe people who have their act together don't have to complain about NOT getting into med school.

I'm confident in my application and I know my stats are competitive at many schools. I can get in on my own merit, but I've still "complained" a lot on these boards about the whole AA situation. I would probably complain about it even after I got into med school and beyond. My motive for being against it has nothing to do with me thinking that some URM is going to take my spot... Are you a minority who is concerned about losing your URM status or somethign?

 

[1Path]

This thread has DEFINITELY served it's purpose, to draw attenting to the 1 trillion AA/URM bashing threads on this site! Thanks EVERYONE, for proving my point!

 

[BigRedPremed]

Um. Please reread the bolded section of your original post. You basically implied that the only reason anyone would be anti-AA is because their app isn't strong. That might be why anti-AA people would be angered by this thread.

I agree. I love how everyone loves to assume that anyone who is anti-AA is so because their own application is not strong enough.

 

[1Path]

Kind of like.....I made a 20Q on the MCAT...but I don't score well on standardized tests...right?

THIS guy deserves a pat on the back for making it to med school! And what a survivor after being called stupid by a teacher, who I seriously doubt was a minority.

Thanks for the link to some truly inspiring stories of URM's, Native American, Latino, African American, ect, making to and THROUGH med school! WOW!!!!