More and more programs using SOAP to fill

[2021Doctor]

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Radiation Oncology Programs SOAPing
2013: 7
2014: 8
2015: 11
2016: 1
2017: 7
2018: 6
2019: 25
2020: 25

2020 Programs In The SOAP:
Tufts Medical Center MA
Beaumont Health MI
Kaiser Permanente Los Angeles CA
UC Davis Med Center CA
University Oklahoma COM OK Oklahoma City OK
Thomas Jefferson University PA
University Tennessee Health Science Center Memphis TN
University Hospitals Jackson MS
NYP Brooklyn Methodist Hospital NY
Stony Brook Teach Hospitals NY
SUNY HSC Brooklyn NY
City Of Hope CA
University of Utah - Salt Lake City UT
University of Virginia Charlottesville VA
Loyola University Med Center IL
Northwestern McGaw IL
University Arkansas COM Little Rock AR
University Arizona COM Tucson AZ
Indiana University SOM
University Kansas SOM Kansas City
University Rochester/Strong Memorial NY
University at Buffalo SOM NY
Case Western/Univ Hospitals Cleveland Med Center OH
Virginia Commonwealth University Health System VA
West Virginia University SOM WV

Comparison: Orthopedic Residency Programs SOAPing
2013: 0
2014: 1
2015: 0
2016: 0
2017: 1
2018: 4
2019: 2
2020: 2

 

[fiji128]

Programs just interviewing lower quality candidates now. If they only ranked based of off 2015 applicant standards it would 50+.

 

[fiji128]

Most programs will probably do just about anything to fill currently. It’s just a race to the bottom as anyone who can be credentialed will be deemed good enough to rank. Only real way I see around this is to fold rad onc back into radiology as a fellowship.

 

[fiji128]

Programs SOAPing
2013: 7
2014: 8
2015: 11
2016: 1
2017: 7
2018: 6
2019: 25
2020: 25

2020 Programs In The SOAP:
Tufts Medical Center MA
Beaumont Health MI
Kaiser Permanente Los Angeles CA
UC Davis Med Center CA
University Oklahoma COM OK Oklahoma City OK
Thomas Jefferson University PA
University Tennessee Health Science Center Memphis TN
University Hospitals Jackson MS
NYP Brooklyn Methodist Hospital NY
Stony Brook Teach Hospitals NY
SUNY HSC Brooklyn NY
City Of Hope CA
University of Utah - Salt Lake City UT
University of Virginia Charlottesville VA
Loyola University Med Center IL
Northwestern McGaw IL
University Arkansas COM Little Rock AR
University Arizona COM Tucson AZ
Indiana University SOM
University Kansas SOM Kansas City
University Rochester/Strong Memorial NY
University at Buffalo SOM NY
Case Western/Univ Hospitals Cleveland Med Center OH
Virginia Commonwealth University Health System VA
West Virginia University SOM WV

Thomas Jefferson, Case Western and Northwestern also increased their resident compliment between 2019 and 2021. Talk about garbage programs.

 

[medgator]

City of Hope, Thomas Jefferson, Case Western and Northwestern also increased their resident compliment between 2019 and 2021. Talk about garbage programs.

Yeah since LA, Chicago and Philly have such a need for ROs 🙄

 

[radonc17]

Programs just interviewing lower quality candidates now. If they only ranked based of off 2015 applicant standards it would 50+.

THIS is key.

Unmatched rate doesn't tell full story anymore as programs have adapted

If a program radically changes their interview criteria and matches, they get to tell everyone "hey we weren't the problem b/c we didn't SOAP"

They look like the "good guy" and buck the blame on others

 

[RickyScott]

THIS is key.

Unmatched rate doesn't tell full story anymore as programs have adapted

If a program radically changes their interview criteria and matches, they get to tell everyone "hey we weren't the problem b/c we didn't SOAP"

They look like the "good guy" and buck the blame on others

Suddenly they have beer goggles.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Suddenly they have beer goggles.

“Brahhhh! Would you after a few beers? Cmon be honest”

 

[radonc17]

Suddenly they have beer goggles.

HA! Crazy how times change

The SOAP letter etc was amazing, but since ppl didn’t listen we lost the window now for free market correction

Sad sad. It truly will depend on selflessness to fix, aka not gonna happen

 

[medgator]

HA! Crazy how times change

The SOAP letter etc was amazing, but since ppl didn’t listen we lost the window now for free market correction

Sad sad. It truly will depend on selflessness to fix, aka not gonna happen

Hence the need to burn it all down. 0 to match in 2021+

 

[medgator]

Suddenly they have beer goggles.

Beer was 2019-2021. We're getting into moonshine/Everclear territory now

 

[ramsesthenice]

Beer was 2019-2021. We're getting into moonshine/Everclear territory now

Everbeer???

 

[metview]

THIS is key.

Unmatched rate doesn't tell full story anymore as programs have adapted

If a program radically changes their interview criteria and matches, they get to tell everyone "hey we weren't the problem b/c we didn't SOAP"

They look like the "good guy" and buck the blame on others

That's what UPMC did last year. They went unmatched for the 2 years in a row prior to last. They realized that no one wants to train there so they lowered their standards and interviewed lesser quality applicants. It only took them 2 years of not matching to realize this, lol.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

That's what UPMC did last year. They went unmatched for the 2 years in a row prior to last. They realized that no one wants to train there so they lowered their standards and interviewed lesser quality applicants. It only took them 2 years of not matching to realize this, lol.

Hellpits will hellpit

 

[frijoles]

IMO most of these programs should just be closed. Get rid of ****ty residencies that don’t actually teach/mentor their residents and are of no help for jobs. Would bring down our numbers while cutting away the fat. Win win.

 

[OTN]

IMO most of these programs should just be closed. Get rid of ****ty residencies that don’t actually teach/mentor their residents and are of no help for jobs. Would bring down our numbers while cutting away the fat. Win win.

Yeah but they don't want to and ASTRO isn't going to do a damn thing.

 

[RickyScott]

Everbeer???

Pruno. (some of the newest members of the specialty will be connoisseurs)

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Yeah but they don't want to and ASTRO isn't going to do a damn thing.

The fact that these problems are in the hands of those with all the power and have no incentive to change is crazy.

This is going to escalate and the only leverage folks outside of ASTRO would be to say we will not higher any residents from XYZ residency. If you academics want to train them then you hire them. Have a big list out there to show hey if you come from this program, many non-academic institutions will not hire you.

I know it is a TERRIBLE IDEA, but for goodness sakes, what else can be done? They are SOAPing to the high heavens. Why force our hand? Do the right thing and at least don't SOAP.

 

[OTN]

The fact that these problems are in the hands of those with all the power and have no incentive to change is crazy.

This is going to escalate and the only leverage folks outside of ASTRO would be to say we will not higher any residents from XYZ residency. If you academics want to train them then you hire them. Have a big list out there to show hey if you come from this program, many non-academic institutions will not hire you.

I know it is a TERRIBLE IDEA, but for goodness sakes, what else can be done? They are SOAPing to the high heavens. Why force our hand? Do the right thing and at least don't SOAP.

This is already happening and has for some time now. I would not hire anyone* for my practice from a residency in the bottom 2/3rds tier, and I know exactly which programs those are. We all do.

*Big assumption here, which is that we will be hiring at all in the next 10 years. Our internal discussions suggest we will not replace radoncs as they retire due to hypofractionation, probably over the next 10-20 years.

 

[metallica81788]

This is already happening and has for some time now. I would not hire anyone* for my practice from a residency in the bottom 2/3rds tier, and I know exactly which programs those are. We all do.

*Big assumption here, which is that we will be hiring at all in the next 10 years. Our internal discussions suggest we will not replace radoncs as they retire due to hypofractionation, probably over the next 10-20 years.

I'm conflicted about this because I agree in theory. However I did residency at one of those places after being happy to match into A SPOT (be happy with A SPOT like A JOB) during the peak, so it seems hypocritical to classify everybody like that.

Now the residents at that place are garbage though, the quality has declined very quickly.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

This is already happening and has for some time now. I would not hire anyone* for my practice from a residency in the bottom 2/3rds tier, and I know exactly which programs those are. We all do.

*Big assumption here, which is that we will be hiring at all in the next 10 years. Our internal discussions suggest we will not replace radoncs as they retire due to hypofractionation, probably over the next 10-20 years.

anti hellpit bias is fair for a new grad or someone with no record but the nice thing is once someone is BC with a proven record, where you trained does not matter

 

[fiji128]

Because of some of the verbiage used in the recent editorials in PRO/IJROBP I'm putting my bet in at 34 programs will have at least one spot that will be unmatched. Maybe even 1 or 2 in top 10 type places.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Because of some of the verbiage used in the recent editorials in PRO/IJROBP I'm putting my bet in at 34 programs will have at least one spot that will be unmatched. Maybe even 1 or 2 in top 10 type places.

*crosses fingers*

 

[RickyScott]

Because of some of the verbiage used in the recent editorials in PRO/IJROBP I'm putting my bet in at 34 programs will have at least one spot that will be unmatched. Maybe even 1 or 2 in top 10 type places.

Is a list put out?

 

[fiji128]

Usually ends up on the Reddit rad onc spreadsheet at some point this week.

 

[seper]

My program feels no pressure whatsoever not to SOAP. Quite the opposite, "to maintain institutional standing", we want max out our resident count.

 

[fiji128]

My program feels no pressure whatsoever not to SOAP. Quite the opposite, "to maintain institutional standing", we want max out our resident count.

Lovely

 

[RadsRocks!]

I matched into DR! 😇😇😇

 

[radonc17]

I matched into DR! 😇😇😇

great! now leave us alone 🤣

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Gossip on the spreadsheet is 35 unfilled spots, I'll try to independently verify that in real life.

 

[domestique]

My program feels no pressure whatsoever not to SOAP. Quite the opposite, "to maintain institutional standing", we want max out our resident count.

what does this mean?

 

[fiji128]

Gossip on the spreadsheet is 35 unfilled spots, I'll try to independently verify that in real life.

"35 unfilled PGY2 spots// Holy s**t, that seems like a lot. More or less than previous years? Where are people getting this data??//its alot but not much more than last i think. there is a tab in R3 // let me just clarify- it's 35 unfilled pgy2 spot in RAD ONC? // 31 unfilled PGY2 rad onc spots last year FYI// I think 35 is alot. You know each program ranked a lot more applicants in order to avoid SOAP. Med student quality has gone down so everyone is adjusting their rank parameters down. Heard that for low and mid tier places, they basically ranked everyone who interviewed.// I mean why interview someone if you're not going to rank them... I thought programs only DNR intervewees in extreme cases. / Programs that SOAPed? // Just a tease... somebody drop a name... please// rad onc is officialy dead, f**k!"

 

[metallica81788]

"rad onc is officialy dead, f**k!"

Just wait until 4 years from now with 800+ new grads being dumped into a field where about 6 people have retired in that time span and maybe 20 more have been forced to retire due to expiration.

 

[fiji128]

If true that is about 1 in 5 spots in rad onc going unfilled in the initial match.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

the breadlines are here, folks! Some hellpit places ended up unmatched as expected. Enjoy your SOAP!

 

[GapCalc]

Unverified list on Google Docs sheet: Arkansas, Kaiser, UC Irvine, Georgetown, U Florida, Iowa, Louisville, Tufts, Henry Ford, Minnesota, U Nebraska, Dartmouth, Case Western, MUSC, Vanderbilt, UT San Antonio, UVA, WVU, MCW.

 

[FrostyHammer]

Unverified list on Google Docs sheet: Arkansas, Kaiser, UC Irvine, Georgetown, U Florida, Iowa, Louisville, Tufts, Henry Ford, Minnesota, U Nebraska, Dartmouth, Case Western, MUSC, Vanderbilt, UT San Antonio, UVA, WVU, MCW.

Would be a shocker if this is true. How did Florida, Vandy, UVA, MCW not match but apparently the trashiest trash (LIJ, NY Methodist, Alleghany, and Baylor) did?

 

[domestique]

Have confirmed 35 from 2 sources. The spreadsheet not being one of them

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Would be a shocker if this is true. How did Florida, Vandy, UVA, MCW not match but apparently the trashiest trash (LIJ, NY Methodist, Alleghany, and Baylor) did?

Could be that they didn't lower expectations in creating ROL...the real question will be will they SOAP

 

[radonc17]

Would be a shocker if this is true. How did Florida, Vandy, UVA, MCW not match but apparently the trashiest trash (LIJ, NY Methodist, Alleghany, and Baylor) did?

It's not unbelievable as it is all about what your match criteria are

Can easily look great by fudging the metrics

For all we know, UF said we will maintain our impressive standards over the years

 

[Radonky]

Not enough. Need more loss porn

Unverified list on Google Docs sheet: Arkansas, Kaiser, UC Irvine, Georgetown, U Florida, Iowa, Louisville, Tufts, Henry Ford, Minnesota, U Nebraska, Dartmouth, Case Western, MUSC, Vanderbilt, UT San Antonio, UVA, WVU, MCW.

 

[metallica81788]

The true colors will show in the next few days with who SOAPs and who does not

 

[brushbeamscanning]

Not enough. Need more loss porn

Radonc together strong.

 

[DireMoose]

Because of some of the verbiage used in the recent editorials in PRO/IJROBP I'm putting my bet in at 34 programs will have at least one spot that will be unmatched. Maybe even 1 or 2 in top 10 type places.

Love that number. So close one may suspect insider trading, lol. Should place my over bet before the verified number comes out.

 

[FrostyHammer]

It's not unbelievable as it is all about what your match criteria are

Can easily look great by fudging the metrics

For all we know, UF said we will maintain our impressive standards over the years

So the moral of the story is that, if a program wants to avoid SOAPing (you just know that most of these programs will end up SOAPing), they should remain committed to interviewing the "worst quality" candidates possible.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Would be a shocker if this is true. How did Florida, Vandy, UVA, MCW not match but apparently the trashiest trash (LIJ, NY Methodist, Alleghany, and Baylor) did?

Different strategies

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Not enough. Need more loss porn

after you watch so much you just get desensitized. You looking for something even worst

 

[fiji128]

Instead of the previously used Step 1 cut off of 250 programs are now saying we won't waste our time interviewing anyone who has a score above 215.

 

[Radonky]

Quick question, hope you don't mind me asking. Expanding the number of trainees in radiation oncology: Has the pendulum swung too far?

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Should the newly matched kids start networking now or after they find out their program on Friday?

I vote now.