More info on the CALI situtation

[G0dFather]

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Hey everyone, This just got emailed to us in NY from the president of the NYSPMA "president's message" ... it adds much more "exclusive" info that was not in PM news and may address some questions but will definitely stir up new ones ... note some of the underlined and bold ...

**************************************************************************

As we are fighting for an appropriate Scope in New York, CPMA was busy as well. This report is on an educational Initiative that will help all of us.


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: FOR FURTHER INFORMATION: Molly Weedn
Tuesday, June 07, 2011 916-551-2069


California’s physicians, Orthopaedic surgeons and podiatrists reach historic agreement on new task force


Joint effort will review Podiatric Training to determine if there are ways to transition Podiatric Schools so Graduates could become Licensed Physicians and Surgeons


SACRAMENTO, June 7, 2011 – Today, the California Medical Association (CMA), California Orthopaedic Association (COA), and the California Podiatric Medical Association (CPMA) announced a historic task force between the three organizations to begin the process of reviewing the education, curriculum and training of California’s podiatric medical schools with the ultimate goal of achieving accreditation as full-fledged allopathic medical schools and enabling their graduates to become licensed physicians and surgeons.
It is the first agreement of its kind anywhere in the nation.
Joint Statement of CMA Chief Executive Officer Dustin Corcoran,
CPMA Executive Director Jon A. Hultman & COA Executive Director Diane Przepiorski


“The California Medical Association (CMA), the California Orthopaedic Association (COA), and the California Podiatric Medical Association (CPMA) have together agreed to launch a joint task force to evaluate the education and training of future graduates of California podiatric schools – with the goal of preparing these students to have the education, training, and certification to allow them to be licensed as physicians and surgeons in California. The agreement includes an understanding that the California podiatric schools would be expected to be accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME).
‘We’re excited to be a part of this unprecedented partnership,’ CMA Chief Executive Officer Dustin Corcoran said. ‘The licensure requirements of podiatrists have increased in California in recent years, and the time has come to evaluate their training programs in this context. The California Medical Association is looking forward to working with the COA and the CPMA to
fully evaluate the education and training of podiatrists to identify and remove any remaining deficiencies so that future podiatric medical graduates would simply be medical school graduates.’


‘This Joint Task Force is the first effort nationwide to perform a critical review of the current podiatric medical school standards and curriculum with the goal of creating podiatric training programs that are equivalent to that of a medical school for physicians and surgeons,’ said COA Executive Director Diane Przepiorski. ‘If we can accomplish this goal, podiatrists will receive the education, training, and certification which will allow them to be licensed as a physician and surgeon in California. We are pleased to be part of this historic and collaborative effort.’


‘The California Medical Association, the California Orthopaedic Association, and the California Podiatric Medical Association have been working collaboratively on healthcare issues focused on the attainment of the highest quality patient care in California,’ said CPMA Executive Director Jon Hultman. ‘Throughout this process, CPMA has made the strong case that the education and training of doctors of podiatric medicine have evolved and become increasingly similar to that of medical doctors. Based on this awareness, our respective organizations have agreed to form a joint task force for the purpose of evaluating the training, education, and certification of podiatric students with the goal of preparing them to be licensed as physicians and surgeons in California.’


‘I am proud to be working with the CMA and COA in achieving this important goal, especially given that our organizations have put aside political differences in order to work together in achieving two common goals of healthcare reform in California: quality patient care and wider access to that care,’ Hultman concluded.”
-# # #-
California Medical Association
Phone: 916-551-2069
California Podiatric Medical Association
Jon A. Hultman, DPM, MBA, Executive Director
Phone: 800- 794-8988
California Orthopaedic Association
Phone: 916-454-9884
NYSPMA will be monitoring this and will support this as appropriate.
**************************************************************************

 

[NurWollen]

So Western would end up with side-by-side MD and DO programs?
Very interesting. I wonder how long this process would take; I also wonder if Western and CSPM will see an increase in applicants looking for a back door into an MD school.

 

[fivescrew]

That's kind of disappointing to hear.

 

[javajava]

Hey everyone, This just got emailed to us in NY from the president of the NYSPMA "president's message" ... it adds much more "exclusive" info that was not in PM news and may address some questions but will definitely stir up new ones ... note some of the underlined and bold ...

**************************************************************************

As we are fighting for an appropriate Scope in New York, CPMA was busy as well. This report is on an educational Initiative that will help all of us.


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: FOR FURTHER INFORMATION: Molly Weedn
Tuesday, June 07, 2011 916-551-2069

California’s physicians, Orthopaedic surgeons and podiatrists reach historic agreement on new task force

Joint effort will review Podiatric Training to determine if there are ways to transition Podiatric Schools so Graduates could become Licensed Physicians and Surgeons


SACRAMENTO, June 7, 2011 – Today, the California Medical Association (CMA), California Orthopaedic Association (COA), and the California Podiatric Medical Association (CPMA) announced a historic task force between the three organizations to begin the process of reviewing the education, curriculum and training of California’s podiatric medical schools with the ultimate goal of achieving accreditation as full-fledged allopathic medical schools and enabling their graduates to become licensed physicians and surgeons.
It is the first agreement of its kind anywhere in the nation.
Joint Statement of CMA Chief Executive Officer Dustin Corcoran,
CPMA Executive Director Jon A. Hultman & COA Executive Director Diane Przepiorski


“The California Medical Association (CMA), the California Orthopaedic Association (COA), and the California Podiatric Medical Association (CPMA) have together agreed to launch a joint task force to evaluate the education and training of future graduates of California podiatric schools – with the goal of preparing these students to have the education, training, and certification to allow them to be licensed as physicians and surgeons in California. The agreement includes an understanding that the California podiatric schools would be expected to be accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME).
‘We’re excited to be a part of this unprecedented partnership,’ CMA Chief Executive Officer Dustin Corcoran said. ‘The licensure requirements of podiatrists have increased in California in recent years, and the time has come to evaluate their training programs in this context. The California Medical Association is looking forward to working with the COA and the CPMA to
fully evaluate the education and training of podiatrists to identify and remove any remaining deficiencies so that future podiatric medical graduates would simply be medical school graduates.’


‘This Joint Task Force is the first effort nationwide to perform a critical review of the current podiatric medical school standards and curriculum with the goal of creating podiatric training programs that are equivalent to that of a medical school for physicians and surgeons,’ said COA Executive Director Diane Przepiorski. ‘If we can accomplish this goal, podiatrists will receive the education, training, and certification which will allow them to be licensed as a physician and surgeon in California. We are pleased to be part of this historic and collaborative effort.’


‘The California Medical Association, the California Orthopaedic Association, and the California Podiatric Medical Association have been working collaboratively on healthcare issues focused on the attainment of the highest quality patient care in California,’ said CPMA Executive Director Jon Hultman. ‘Throughout this process, CPMA has made the strong case that the education and training of doctors of podiatric medicine have evolved and become increasingly similar to that of medical doctors. Based on this awareness, our respective organizations have agreed to form a joint task force for the purpose of evaluating the training, education, and certification of podiatric students with the goal of preparing them to be licensed as physicians and surgeons in California.’


‘I am proud to be working with the CMA and COA in achieving this important goal, especially given that our organizations have put aside political differences in order to work together in achieving two common goals of healthcare reform in California: quality patient care and wider access to that care,’ Hultman concluded.”
-# # #-
California Medical Association
Phone: 916-551-2069
California Podiatric Medical Association
Jon A. Hultman, DPM, MBA, Executive Director
Phone: 800- 794-8988
California Orthopaedic Association
Phone: 916-454-9884
NYSPMA will be monitoring this and will support this as appropriate.
**************************************************************************

So does this mean the DPM schools would be morphed into MD school instead and they would graduate with an MD degree

That would kill podiatry

 

[javajava]

No doubt it would! Could be what the COA and CMA had planned all along.

I don't see how this will all work out though. Western's podiatry curriculum is the exact same thing as their DO curriculum with the exception of the podiatry students not taking the OMT class. CSPM's curriculum is nothing like Western's and they take zero classes with medical students. In my opinion its not even in the same league as Western. If the COA and CMA is doing its job this might raise some eyebrows. Essentially for this work both CA podiatry schools need to be comparable in the education they offer.

This would lead to an awkward situation of being an MD but as soon as you cross the state border what exactly are you

 

[tiptoeing]

No doubt it would! Could be what the COA and CMA had planned all along.

I don't see how this will all work out though. Western's podiatry curriculum is the exact same thing as their DO curriculum with the exception of the podiatry students not taking the OMT class. CSPM's curriculum is nothing like Western's and they take zero classes with medical students. In my opinion its not even in the same league as Western. If the COA and CMA is doing its job this might raise some eyebrows. Essentially for this work both CA podiatry schools need to be comparable in the education they offer.

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding this whole ordeal. The goal of CPMA is to gain parity. One way of doing so is being able to have the Physician & Surgeon Certificate (P&S) while the degree will still remain DPM. It doesn't mean that pod students or graduates from the california school will get MD degrees. Again, they will still graduate with a DPM degree but in order to get a P&S certificate, the curriculum must be comparable or approved by the LCME (I think that's the MD accredidation body). The P&S certificate will eliminate the restrictions on DPMs in regards to billing and etc. It's purpose is to help the profession and not the other way around.

 

[javajava]

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding this whole ordeal. The goal of CPMA is to gain parity. One way of doing so is being able to have the Physician & Surgeon Certificate (P&S) while the degree will still remain DPM. It doesn't mean that pod students or graduates from the california school will get MD degrees. Again, they will still graduate with a DPM degree but in order to get a P&S certificate, the curriculum must be comparable or approved by the LCME (I think that's the MD accredidation body). The P&S certificate will eliminate the restrictions on DPMs in regards to billing and etc. It's purpose is to help the profession and not the other way around.

Initially thought that too but reading this made me think otherwise as they would be medical school graduates

Maybe in a couple of months we will know as more details come as as this isnt very specific

The California Medical Association is looking forward to working with the COA and the CPMA to fully evaluate the education and training of podiatrists to identify and remove any remaining deficiencies so that future podiatric medical graduates would simply be medical school graduates."

 

[tiptoeing]

Initially thought that too but reading this made me think otherwise as they would be medical school graduates

Maybe in a couple of months we will know as more details come as as this isnt very specific

The California Medical Association is looking forward to working with the COA and the CPMA to fully evaluate the education and training of podiatrists to identify and remove any remaining deficiencies so that future podiatric medical graduates would simply be medical school graduates."

I agree with you javajava that the highlighted statement suggests that Pod graduates will get an MD degree. Our Dean met with us on the last day on school. He is a board member and was there at the meeting. We expressed concerns that we might loose our identity with this. We were told that that won't be the case (who knows). One of the members of the CMPA spoke to us a couple of months earlier and told us that this announcement was gonna come. So, we (WesternU) knew about it to an extend. Never, did either one of them said anything about getting an MD degree. They talked about the P&S certificate which is awarded to "medical school graduates". After this "announced evaluation of curriculum", if they find that the curriculum meets the requirements, then they will move forward with it. This also means that we would have to take the USMLE (which is already accepted here in Cali by the CPMA) boards. Hope this helps a little and not add to the confusion.

 

[tiptoeing]

This would lead to an awkward situation of being an MD but as soon as you cross the state border what exactly are you

I would be a non-Spanish speaking Pod in Mexico....lol You are right though...and I (WesternU Pod student) realized that this is only good if I am to reside in California...which I am not so sure about right now. They are hoping that this will pave the way for Pods in other states also.

 

[fivescrew]

Ultimately, I see this only changing the laws\regulations that govern podiatry in CA and not the actual degrees given and the curriculum taught to Podiatry students.

If a DPM granting school wanted to become a "full-fledged allopathic medical school" there are easier ways than a big task force and what will probably equal at least a decade of study on it's part. They would just change the curriculum, drop the word Podiatric and apply for accreditation.

 

[skiz knot]

Right or wrong, to achieve true parity with physicians and surgeons, in most people's eyes, you would have to become allo/osteopathic physicians and surgeons. If podiatric schools became medical schools, podiatry would have to become a residency/fellowship open to all medical students, and admission to the (former) podiatric schools would have to be on the same playing field as medical schools. That would ultimately lead to the best patient care (at least theoretically).

 

[fivescrew]

That would ultimately lead to the best patient care (at least theoretically).

The best thing for patient care would be allowing any practitioner a full and level playing field in his\her area of expertise and limiting their practice to only areas they've been proven proficient in. Just because an MD\DO can technically practice any type of medicine they want doesn't mean they should and certainly doesn't mean the "but I'm an MD" excuse would hold up in court if and when a doc oversteps their training.


In our litigious world everything especially medicine is going to just keep getting more and more restricted. The day will come when a doctor is legally and uniformly required to only practice the type of medicine they learned through residency instead of it just being an ethical limitation.

 

[tiptoeing]

Right or wrong, to achieve true parity with physicians and surgeons, in most people's eyes, you would have to become allo/osteopathic physicians and surgeons. If podiatric schools became medical schools, podiatry would have to become a residency/fellowship open to all medical students, and admission to the (former) podiatric schools would have to be on the same playing field as medical schools. That would ultimately lead to the best patient care (at least theoretically).

With that definition, yes you are right. Even if the P&S certificate is awarded to DPM grads, some MDs will still view a DPM as inferior. To change that mindset, it will take more than awarding a P&S certificate and time. That, the CPMA and CMA and COA are aware of. What this collaboration will do though is true parity on paper and not opinions. Legally, it will podiatrist access to certain privileges that are not available to them as of now. This is not about changing podiatry school into a allopathic school. It is about allowing podiatrist to maximally contribute to the healthcare community.

 

[tiptoeing]

Ultimately, I see this only changing the laws\regulations that govern podiatry in CA and not the actual degrees given and the curriculum taught to Podiatry students.

If a DPM granting school wanted to become a "full-fledged allopathic medical school" there are easier ways than a big task force and what will probably equal at least a decade of study on it's part. They would just change the curriculum, drop the word Podiatric and apply for accreditation.

fivescrew, WesternU's Podiatry curriculum is identical to that of it's DO program with the exception of PMP (Podiatric medicine principles) and OMM respectively. The California Medical association and the California Ortho association wants to award Physician and Surgeon certificate to California Pod graduates if they find that the DPM graduates got the necessary curriculum. That's what the task force is for...to evaluate the Pod school curriculum and determine whether or not it qualifies its graduates for a P&S certificate. But you are right, if they wanted to be full fledge allopathic school, then its a different story. But that is not the case here!

 

[fivescrew]

That may be the case and I'm not arguing against it but you have to admit that's not what the email leads you to believe.

 

[darazon]

The way it was told to me was that it is not a degree change, but we would be awarded the P&S certificate, which would, theoretically, give us an unlimited scope. With that we would have equal reimbursements with medical and have no problems getting admitting privileges.

The end goal is to hopefully come to a common scope of practice for all DPMs across the country. California is trying to set the example for that. Let's see what happens...

 

[hematosis]

I've said this multiple times but still have not received an answer. What do the Western students think will happen when the COA and CMA evaluate the CSPM's curriculum? This whole thing only got traction because Western's curriculum is identical to the DO school. CSPM is a stand alone institution with no classes with MD/DO students. Two very different podiatry schools in CA.

The COA and CMA may suggest that CSPM may have to change a few things, more so than western.

 

[tiptoeing]

That may be the case and I'm not arguing against it but you have to admit that's not what the email leads you to believe.

Unless it is clarified by someone who was there, you are right...one can easily allow themselves to interpret it that way. That's why I signed up in this forum to at least share what was told to me by someone who was there and clarify the tendency to misinterpret the email/announcement.

 

[tiptoeing]

Thats a pretty tall order to ask for a school that has been successfully running as a stand alone institution for quite some time. That could be a deal breaker right there.

I agree that it will be a tall order if there's alot of changes needed to be made to their curriculum. However, I feel that CSPM will be selfish not to embrace it...just my opinion!

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding this whole ordeal. The goal of CPMA is to gain parity. One way of doing so is being able to have the Physician & Surgeon Certificate (P&S) while the degree will still remain DPM. It doesn't mean that pod students or graduates from the california school will get MD degrees. Again, they will still graduate with a DPM degree but in order to get a P&S certificate, the curriculum must be comparable or approved by the LCME (I think that's the MD accredidation body). The P&S certificate will eliminate the restrictions on DPMs in regards to billing and etc. It's purpose is to help the profession and not the other way around.

The school can't be approved officially by the LCME unless it's intent is to become a MD granted, allopathic medical school. It's actually written in the LCME bylaws that they aren't allowed to review and give their "blessing" or approval or whatever else to anything besides US MD programs.

Even though this situation is still absurdly (and purposely in my opinion) confusing, there are only two scenarios here:

1. DPMs think the "physician and surgeon" license will allow for equal reimbursement rights and universal access to everything below the knee. This won't do anything to increase respect (I'm sorry, it just won't - those in the medical profession who are foolish about it are too stuck in their ways to change in the significantly immediate future and it does nothing from the patient prospective). Additionally, I simply don't see this going over universally.

2. If the LCME is really involved, then these institutions are simply being used as an easy way to open more US MD programs, and the medical associations (especially the ortho groups) see this as a way to get rid of podiatry in general (honestly, why else would they be involved - an olive branch? Unlikely). In this scenario ... keep two things in mind: 1. grandfathering previous DPMs into MDs with completely unrestricted license is a pipe dream. I don't know what would be done to fix this, but grandfathering in this scenario is just impossible. 2. If you start school to obtain a DPM, you wouldn't end up staying with the course, ending up the middle of some change and graduating with an MD. This would apply to future programs.

Altogether, I'm afraid to say that I don't think anything is going to happen with this. I think DPM programs are going to stay DPM programs; battles for reimbursement rights and respect will be slow and fought on an individual level; people in all medical professions will continue to think they are the smartest, best, and only person qualified to offer care and groups will ALWAYS look down on others. Immature, lame, foolish, etc, but true.

Just my opinionated .02 after reading a LOT of these threads and seeing no real clarification from this most recent update.

 

[JaggerPlate]

fivescrew, WesternU's Podiatry curriculum is identical to that of it's DO program with the exception of PMP (Podiatric medicine principles) and OMM respectively. The California Medical association and the California Ortho association wants to award Physician and Surgeon certificate to California Pod graduates if they find that the DPM graduates got the necessary curriculum. That's what the task force is for...to evaluate the Pod school curriculum and determine whether or not it qualifies its graduates for a P&S certificate. But you are right, if they wanted to be full fledge allopathic school, then its a different story. But that is not the case here!

The way it was told to me was that it is not a degree change, but we would be awarded the P&S certificate, which would, theoretically, give us an unlimited scope. With that we would have equal reimbursements with medical and have no problems getting admitting privileges.

The end goal is to hopefully come to a common scope of practice for all DPMs across the country. California is trying to set the example for that. Let's see what happens...

Most clarification I've gotten during this whole thing. Thank you! However, I stick by my assessments that the P&S certificate still isn't a universal or quick fix. Again, battling with insurance companies will still be a case by case basis as will hospitals for admitting and surgical privileges (especially in for-profit and private institutions).

 

[dyk343]

nm.

 

[hematosis]

Most clarification I've gotten during this whole thing. Thank you! However, I stick by my assessments that the P&S certificate still isn't a universal or quick fix. Again, battling with insurance companies will still be a case by case basis as will hospitals for admitting and surgical privileges (especially in for-profit and private institutions).

Having the same license means getting reimbursed equally. I don't see your argument here.

Personally, I think this is a win win situation for podiatrist. While some care about this "respect" issue, i think the majority are content with their careers and are more concerned about being reimbursed equally.

love it or hate it, its really all about the legal system. Once you achieve that part, the rest will fall into place.

 

[fivescrew]

Unless it is clarified by someone who was there, you are right...one can easily allow themselves to interpret it that way. That's why I signed up in this forum to at least share what was told to me by someone who was there and clarify the tendency to misinterpret the email/announcement.

Well to be fair there really isn't any interpreting to be done, the email clearly says the ultimate goal is to achieve accreditation as allopathic schools. If the powers that be are backtracking that now to you students that's all fine and dandy but the email clearly draws goal on the board. Right or wrong.

 

[fivescrew]

Having the same license means getting reimbursed equally. I don't see your argument here.

I think what he's saying is that even if DPMs get that certificate it isn't going to put them on a level playing field as far as perceptions go because at the end of the day there are differences and DPMs do not equal MDs. Doesn't make them any less or any more than each other, just different. The majority of degree discrimination is personal and even if everything was legally even people would still find reasons to portray themselves to be better than others.

Seems to me that instead of trying to fit into the mold of other doctors, DPMs should continue to promote their differences and exceptional standards of education and training as experts in their field. It's sort of enlightening to read all the posts here from actual podiatrists with a few years under them because they all seem 99.9 happy with their careers as physicians and a more than a few have commented on how they have harmonious professional relationships with MDs because in the end everyone picks a field and sticks with it while relying on the expertise of others to best suit the patients needs.

One of the biggest things drawing me to podiatry is how unique a field it is and how focused the training is. Although to be honest I used to think I would rather be a dentist but I had a serious wake up moment awhile back when my dentist was bitten four times by a patient with tourettes while I was in the next chair. God help him he was professional about it but not sure I could be . 😛

 

[BioPod]

Seems to me that instead of trying to fit into the mold of other doctors, DPMs should continue to promote their differences and exceptional standards of education and training as experts in their field.

That pretty much sums up what I think. 👍

 

[tiptoeing]

Well to be fair there really isn't any interpreting to be done, the email clearly says the ultimate goal is to achieve accreditation as allopathic schools. If the powers that be are backtracking that now to you students that's all fine and dandy but the email clearly draws goal on the board. Right or wrong.

Fivescrew, I guess we will have to wait and see how it will exactly work. As of now, the issue is wide open. I hope it will all be cleared up soon...at least for you guys.

 

[tiptoeing]

I think what he's saying is that even if DPMs get that certificate it isn't going to put them on a level playing field as far as perceptions go because at the end of the day there are differences and DPMs do not equal MDs. Doesn't make them any less or any more than each other, just different. The majority of degree discrimination is personal and even if everything was legally even people would still find reasons to portray themselves to be better than others.

Seems to me that instead of trying to fit into the mold of other doctors, DPMs should continue to promote their differences and exceptional standards of education and training as experts in their field. It's sort of enlightening to read all the posts here from actual podiatrists with a few years under them because they all seem 99.9 happy with their careers as physicians and a more than a few have commented on how they have harmonious professional relationships with MDs because in the end everyone picks a field and sticks with it while relying on the expertise of others to best suit the patients needs.

One of the biggest things drawing me to podiatry is how unique a field it is and how focused the training is. Although to be honest I used to think I would rather be a dentist but I had a serious wake up moment awhile back when my dentist was bitten four times by a patient with tourettes while I was in the next chair. God help him he was professional about it but not sure I could be . 😛

YOu are right that we (Pods) need to embrace what makes us different and here at WesternU, we do. As an example, biomechanics is emphasized for it is one of the things that separate us from F&A orthos. Please realize, or at least be open to it, that this is about allowing us to be unrestricted contributing healthcare professionals/podiatrist to the community. How are we to do that when medical (California medicare) cuts us off? (I believe that that's the case in other states too). THAT'S THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF THIS...please allow yourself to see that. If one wants to be accepted or treated as an MD then one should go to MD school and not POD school.

 

[phillypd]

The school can't be approved officially by the LCME unless it's intent is to become a MD granted, allopathic medical school. It's actually written in the LCME bylaws that they aren't allowed to review and give their "blessing" or approval or whatever else to anything besides US MD programs.]

this is not true.... D.O. schools also are approved by LCME and are allowed to sit for the USMLE. and they still get D.O. degrees in the end.

 

[fivescrew]

Please realize, or at least be open to it, that this is about allowing us to be unrestricted contributing healthcare professionals/podiatrist to the community. How are we to do that when medical (California medicare) cuts us off? (I believe that that's the case in other states too). THAT'S THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF THIS...please allow yourself to see that.

I understand what you are saying so please don't patronize me by talking to me like I'm just not grasping it. I already hold one professional degree so I'm not some undergrad with no idea how the world works. I show everyone the same respect.

If this parity issue is really all about pay then this battle is being fought in the wrong way. Pay discrimination, based on any reason, is a legal issue. For podiatry as a whole to be willing to submit themselves to the kind of reviews this "Task force" is aiming at it reeks of insecurity as a profession. Instead of standing up and saying "Yep we are different but just as capable, get used to it" they are instead saying " Look look, we aren't so different see" and than opening themselves to scrutiny only to be told in the end what everyone already knows a DPM does not equal an MD.

Nobody can be taken seriously when you are spending all your time trying to prove you are good enough. I'm not saying all Podiatrists do this, I'm just saying that's what this issue looks like.

If you want even pay fight for it without changing your identity and that's really the only thing that can come from this "task force"

 

[Xforward22]

If you want even pay fight for it without changing your identity and that's really the only thing that can come from this "task force"

How bad is the pay discrepancy? Does this vary by state? What has been done in the past about it?

 

[tiptoeing]

I understand what you are saying so please don't patronize me by talking to me like I'm just not grasping it. I already hold one professional degree so I'm not some undergrad with no idea how the world works. I show everyone the same respect.

If this parity issue is really all about pay then this battle is being fought in the wrong way. Pay discrimination, based on any reason, is a legal issue. For podiatry as a whole to be willing to submit themselves to the kind of reviews this "Task force" is aiming at it reeks of insecurity as a profession. Instead of standing up and saying "Yep we are different but just as capable, get used to it" they are instead saying " Look look, we aren't so different see" and than opening themselves to scrutiny only to be told in the end what everyone already knows a DPM does not equal an MD.

Nobody can be taken seriously when you are spending all your time trying to prove you are good enough. I'm not saying all Podiatrists do this, I'm just saying that's what this issue looks like.

If you want even pay fight for it without changing your identity and that's really the only thing that can come from this "task force"

A little offended eh...that wasn't my intention but that's what your words "lead me to believe". So forgive me if I struck you the wrong way and I am sorry that I didn't know you already hold a professional degree....good for you. Pay is just part of the issue and yes this is a legal issue and after hacking at it for some time, this is a break through for our profession. If you are going into the profession then you will appreciate what this means. If you have any ideas on how to get even pay and privileges then please lets hear it.
May be if I already had a professional degree like you than may I will "get it".🙄

 

[tiptoeing]

How bad is the pay discrepancy? Does this vary by state? What has been done in the past about it?

Do a little research here and shadow and ask a local (or few) podiatrist.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Having the same license means getting reimbursed equally. I don't see your argument here.

Personally, I think this is a win win situation for podiatrist. While some care about this "respect" issue, i think the majority are content with their careers and are more concerned about being reimbursed equally.

love it or hate it, its really all about the legal system. Once you achieve that part, the rest will fall into place.

In theory/on paper yes, if you had the same license you should be reimbursed the same. However, in reality, I still feel very, very confident that pods would see a BIG lag/lots of battles with insurance companies (especially Medicare) when it comes to getting equal reimbursements and not having claims bumped back/not paid out at DO/MD levels.

this is not true.... D.O. schools also are approved by LCME and are allowed to sit for the USMLE. and they still get D.O. degrees in the end.

Completely incorrect. DO schools are approved by the COCA, not LCME - who approve US MD schools and are only legally allowed to do so. Therefore, involvement of the LCME means transformation to a US MD program or nothing else. This doesn't mean organizations can't mimic its standards, but it's in the bylaws that they can only approve potential schools to reward the MD degree.

 

[dtrack22]

Therefore, involvement of the LCME means transformation to a US MD program or nothing else. This doesn't mean organizations can't mimic its standards, but it's in the bylaws that they can only approve potential schools to reward the MD degree.

And once you have a bunch of Pod students with MD degrees, who are forced to take the USMLE, and participate in ACGME residencies...California has solved their own PCP shortage problem (have fun in Family Practice boys and girls).

I would be asking a lot tougher questions than the Cali posters on here currently are. Maybe it's from experience with a different "parent organization/professional governing body", but I would be skeptical. If you believe the CMA and COA are looking out for your best interests and not their own....well, do I even need to say it?

I really hope Jagger is wrong and you will just be receiving a certificate (although I guarantee CSPM will hold you back). I think the "parity" thing is blown way out of proportion by an unhappy few in the 2-3 states left where it's an issue, but the "P&S" certificate certainly wouldn't hurt anything.

 

[hematosis]

And once you have a bunch of Pod students with MD degrees, who are forced to take the USMLE, and participate in ACGME residencies...California has solved their own PCP shortage problem (have fun in Family Practice boys and girls).

I would be asking a lot tougher questions than the Cali posters on here currently are. Maybe it's from experience with a different "parent organization/professional governing body", but I would be skeptical. If you believe the CMA and COA are looking out for your best interests and not their own....well, do I even need to say it?

I really hope Jagger is wrong and you will just be receiving a certificate (although I guarantee CSPM will hold you back). I think the "parity" thing is blown way out of proportion by an unhappy few in the 2-3 states left where it's an issue, but the "P&S" certificate certainly wouldn't hurt anything.

Do you really think that the CPMA would go on with this knowing that their DPM program is going to convert into MD program?

 

[fivescrew]

A little offended eh...that wasn't my intention but that's what your words "lead me to believe". So forgive me if I struck you the wrong way and I am sorry that I didn't know you already hold a professional degree....good for you. Pay is just part of the issue and yes this is a legal issue and after hacking at it for some time, this is a break through for our profession. If you are going into the profession then you will appreciate what this means. If you have any ideas on how to get even pay and privileges then please lets hear it.
May be if I already had a professional degree like you than may I will "get it".🙄

I wasn't offended by anything you had to say I was a little offended by how you said it, "please allow yourself to understand..."" I wasn't speaking to you in such demeaning ways and you shouldn't either. You don't have to talk down to people that don't agree with you, is that how you intend to treat your patients?

I don't have any ideas off the top of my head on how you should get even pay besides suing to change the laws and regulations. Or better yet prove to them you have the education and skill and than make a name for yourself...you know, like so many DPMs have done before.

Giving up your identity in some vain attempt to look like the real doctors is down right pathetic and insulting to those that have paved the way for podiatrists to be where they are now. If I was a pod student or recent grad I would be upset that my profession is doing something like this. This "task force" isn't a break through as you put it, it's your profession lying down and taking it.

Even a medical outsider like myself can see that.

 

[tiptoeing]

I wasn't offended by anything you had to say I was a little offended by how you said it, "please allow yourself to understand..."" I wasn't speaking to you in such demeaning ways and you shouldn't either. You don't have to talk down to people that don't agree with you, is that how you intend to treat your patients?

I don't have any ideas off the top of my head on how you should get even pay besides suing to change the laws and regulations. Or better yet prove to them you have the education and skill and than make a name for yourself...you know, like so many DPMs have done before.

Giving up your identity in some vain attempt to look like the real doctors is down right pathetic and insulting to those that have paved the way for podiatrists to be where they are now. If I was a pod student or recent grad I would be upset that my profession is doing something like this. This "task force" isn't a break through as you put it, it's your profession lying down and taking it.

Even a medical outsider like myself can see that.

The part you don't allow yourself to see or incapable of seeing is that this is not Podiatrists giving up their identity or "lying down and taking it". You are waaaay wrong...this is podiatrist STANDING UP and saying WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET ANYBODY ELSE DEFINE WHAT OUR PROFESSION IS. This conversation will not go anywhere as long as you refuse to see that point. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The very people that are instrumental in this are respectable members of the profession who's been "paving the way". This is another addition to the "paving the way". Your reaction to this is very similar to a lot of people's reactions to when they first introduced the 3 yr residency...they thought we were "lying down and taking it" and loosing our identity....and look at how that impact the profession. Do yourself a favor and learn more about the political issues podiatrist are battling and MAY BE (if you let yourself) you will appreciate what these Podiatry Pioneers are doing for the profession.

 

[fivescrew]

Just a bunch of wishful thinking on your part and will only make it a harder pill to swallow when nothing good comes from this. This isn't podiatrists standing up, it's podiatrists giving in.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that this will only end up hurting podiatry. After this so called task force is done they will come to the same conclusion everyone already knows, that DPMs aren't the same as MDs. On top of that there will now be a record of such findings that includes DPMs themselves coming to that conclusion. How do you think that will work out for a future DPM trying to gain a little ground when his own profession effectively finds he isn't equal to an MD?

The way for anyone, DPMs included, to be respected and accepted is to find their own place, not mimic others. It's worked for doctors of all types for a long time and there are plenty of examples to point to. A DPM on this board is a chief of surgery(all, not just feet). You have NDs out west that can now practice full body medicine and prescribe drugs. You have ODs in KY that can now do laser eye surgery.

List goes on and on and they got these expansions in their practice by educating not just conforming.

I know how important it is to look at circumstances close to you with rose tinted glasses sometimes but trust me when I say you won't be doing yourself any favors in the long run.

 

[tiptoeing]

Just a bunch of wishful thinking on your part and will only make it a harder pill to swallow when nothing good comes from this. This isn't podiatrists standing up, it's podiatrists giving in.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that this will only end up hurting podiatry. After this so called task force is done they will come to the same conclusion everyone already knows, that DPMs aren't the same as MDs. On top of that there will now be a record of such findings that includes DPMs themselves coming to that conclusion. How do you think that will work out for a future DPM trying to gain a little ground when his own profession effectively finds he isn't equal to an MD?

The way for anyone, DPMs included, to be respected and accepted is to find their own place, not mimic others. It's worked for doctors of all types for a long time and there are plenty of examples to point to. A DPM on this board is a chief of surgery(all, not just feet). You have NDs out west that can now practice full body medicine and prescribe drugs. You have ODs in KY that can now do laser eye surgery.

List goes on and on and they got these expansions in their practice by educating not conforming.

I know how important it is to look at circumstances close to you with rose tinted glasses sometimes but trust me when I say you won't be doing yourself any favors in the long run.

You just don't get it do you? Well, I guess we will leave it at that!

 

[fivescrew]

What I don't get is the attitude you are giving. Am I deserving of being disrespected because I voice a different opinion than you hold? Isn't that the point of an internet forum, to discuss topics? I'm not bashing podiatry, I think it's a great profession that offers a lot.

I'll guess I'll chalk it up to your own insecurities about your chosen profession. What other conclusion can I draw from your "I'm taking my ball and going home" rebuttal?

 

[tiptoeing]

What I don't get is the attitude you are giving. Am I deserving of being disrespected because I voice a different opinion than you hold? Isn't that the point of an internet forum, to discuss topics? I'm not bashing podiatry, I think it's a great profession that offers a lot.

I'll guess I'll chalk it up to your own insecurities about your chosen profession. What other conclusion can I draw from your "I'm taking my ball and going home" rebuttal?

Insecurities huh?... You are making assumptions about me now. Now you think you know who I am now....base on an internet forum conversation??? WOW! Was that what you got your professional degree on? Impressive!! "I'm taking my ball and going home" Really? It's more like me taking my ball and playing somebody else who's capable. Yes, you expressed your opinion....and you are entitled to that but I was sharing with you the fact in regards to the issue. That's where the disconnect is at; you share your opinion...I'm not sharing opinion, I am telling you the fact of why this is.

Since we are making assumptions about each other basing on an internet forum, I am guessing you are the kind of person that wants to be right all the time...am I right? If I am wrong, pardon me, because I don't have a professional degree...

 

[jonwill]

I think people are reading too much into this. I agree that it is a bit hard to understand or interpret. What I would believe is happening is that DPM's are still considered mid-levels by many hospital systems and insurance plans in the state. Reclassifying them as physicians and surgeons may help with the hospital credentialing, surgical privileging, admission privileges, insurance credentialing, etc. But they will still be DPM's practicing within their scope. I'm not so sure about the reimbursement issue in CA. In most states, DPM's are reimbursed the same as MD's. There may be some states where that is not the case (I'm not sure).

However, I don't believe that it means pod students would be awarded MD degrees or anything of the sort.

 

[tiptoeing]

I think people are reading too much into this. I agree that it is a bit hard to understand or interpret. What I would believe is happening is that DPM's are still considered mid-levels by many hospital systems and insurance plans in the state. Reclassifying them as physicians and surgeons may help with the hospital credentialing, surgical privileging, admission privileges, insurance credentialing, etc. But they will still be DPM's practicing within their scope. I'm not so sure about the reimbursement issue in CA. In most states, DPM's are reimbursed the same as MD's. There may be some states where that is not the case (I'm not sure).

However, I don't believe that it means pod students would be awarded MD degrees or anything of the sort.

jonwill, you are right on. Two people who are directly involved in this ordeal told us exactly what you just stated as the sole purpose of this collaboration. How long and whether or not it will happen is a different story. DPMs are not seeking MDs...they are seeking the above stated facts.

 

[fivescrew]

Insecurities huh?... You are making assumptions about me now. Now you think you know who I am now....base on an internet forum conversation??? WOW! Was that what you got your professional degree on? Impressive!! "I'm taking my ball and going home" Really? It's more like me taking my ball and playing somebody else who's capable. Yes, you expressed your opinion....and you are entitled to that but I was sharing with you the fact in regards to the issue. That's where the disconnect is at; you share your opinion...I'm not sharing opinion, I am telling you the fact of why this is.

Since we are making assumptions about each other basing on an internet forum, I am guessing you are the kind of person that wants to be right all the time...am I right? If I am wrong, pardon me, because I don't have a professional degree...

I've made no assumptions about you that weren't based solely off how you have handled yourself in this topic. Those being that you have been childish, rude and a little naive. All of which was uncalled for because I am simply stating an opinion that differs from yours.

Up and until the time comes that this "Task force" publishes any findings and\or changes, we are both just expressing our opinion. Not facts. "Please allow yourself to see" that people can argue without things getting personal and they can agree to disagree.

 

[tiptoeing]

I've made no assumptions about you that weren't based solely off how you have handled yourself in this topic. Those being that you have been childish, rude and a little naive. All of which was uncalled for because I am simply stating an opinion that differs from yours.

Up and until the time comes that this "Task force" publishes any findings and\or changes, we are both just expressing our opinion. Not facts. "Please allow yourself to see" that people can argue without things getting personal and they can agree to disagree.

Yours is purely opinion....mine is not my opinion...it's what I was told...it is why the task force was formed. That is not my opinion...you keep saying that that's my opinion. I apologize for being childish, rude, and naive in this conversation ( I guess I was the only one).
I never suggested that you shouldn't expressed your opinion. I merely informed you that your opinion was incorrect. I didn't say you shouldn't express it. You just don't like being told your opinion of the matter is wrong....and I get that. So, regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter, the truth about it has been stated repeatedly above (Read jonwill's last post).
You accused me of being insecured about my chosen profession....and what did you base that on? You have no idea why I chose this profession and you shouldn't care why I chose it but please don't make such accusation...especially if you're gonna accuse me of being childish, rude and naive because that makes you sound alot like me 😉

 

[dyk343]

I dont see very much love on here for CSPM... especially when Western has not even graduated a class or completed boards yet. It doesnt really matter to me... but I see some bold statements being made.

 

[fivescrew]

Yours is purely opinion....mine is not my opinion...it's what I was told...it is why the task force was formed. That is not my opinion...you keep saying that that's my opinion. I apologize for being childish, rude, and naive in this conversation ( I guess I was the only one).
I never suggested that you shouldn't expressed your opinion. I merely informed you that your opinion was incorrect. I didn't say you shouldn't express it. You just don't like being told your opinion of the matter is wrong....and I get that. So, regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter, the truth about it has been stated repeatedly above (Read jonwill's last post).

First off, apology accepted. No big deal.

Second, your opinion holds as much weight as mine does because until something comes of this matter we won't know for sure. Sure, you were given more information about it from your school but all that means is that you are now basing your opinion off of hearsay, that is your interpretation of the matter based off the opinion of someone else. Fact is unless you are telling us you are an integral part of this task force with intimate knowledge of the matter you are still just expressing an opinion albeit a more informed opinion.

Respectfully I submit that you feel a disconnect as you put it because I didn't immediately change my mind based solely on the information you provided. Blindly listening to others and not forming your own opinion is no way to handle anything.

Think about it, what if somebody appeared in this topic, claimed he knew what was happening because he was some bigwig and that's that. Would you have changed your mind based solely off the posting of an internet stranger or would you have considered what he had to say, compare it to the evidence at hand and make your own opinion?

 

[janV88]

I dont see very much love on here for CSPM... especially when Western has not even graduated a class or completed boards yet. It doesnt really matter to me... but I see some bold statements being made.

Well the point of this collaboration is to look at each school's curriculum. Now I don't think anyone here is saying that CSPM doesn't graduate good Podiatrists...all we are saying is that WesternU is the closest to MD/DO curriculum.

 

[tiptoeing]

First off, apology accepted. No big deal.

Second, your opinion holds as much weight as mine does because until something comes of this matter we won't know for sure. Sure, you were given more information about it from your school but all that means is that you are now basing your opinion off of hearsay, that is your interpretation of the matter based off the opinion of someone else. Fact is unless you are telling us you are an integral part of this task force with intimate knowledge of the matter you are still just expressing an opinion albeit a more informed opinion.

Respectfully I submit that you feel a disconnect as you put it because I didn't immediately change my mind based solely on the information you provided. Blindly listening to others and not forming your own opinion is no way to handle anything.

Think about it, what if somebody appeared in this topic, claimed he knew what was happening because he was some bigwig and that's that. Would you have changed your mind based solely off the posting of an internet stranger or would you have considered what he had to say, compare it to the evidence at hand and make your own opinion?

fivescrew, thank you for accepting my apology...the only problem with that, this conversation might stop You are right, at this point, nobody knows exactly how this is going to pan out and I have expressed that. Trust me, I wouldn't be saying so unless I didn't trust my resources. Our Dean and one of the members of CPMA boards personally told us about this ordeal and why it is being formed. Even them don't know how it's going to pan out but it's purpose is to not get an MD degree or to change the MDs opinions of DPMs. It is to assist DPMs in overcoming the political nonsense that stands in their way of being the best podiatrist possible. It is simply that. That is the fact that I am referring to...that it is not my opinion but the information was straight from the horse's mouth. What happen from here on out is a different story and we shall wait and see.

You shouldn't change your mind because somebody online tells you so, unless that someone is me of course...lol jk now. These conversation should be thought provoking, argumentative, humorous, and even intense...at least their will be no flying fists around here...