More info on the CALI situtation

[tiptoeing]

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I dont see very much love on here for CSPM... especially when Western has not even graduated a class or completed boards yet. It doesnt really matter to me... but I see some bold statements being made.

dyk343, i saw a comparison of CSPM to allopathic schools curriculum from either 2003 or 2005 (i'm gonna have to find the link). I don't think CSPM will have to make any major changes (according to the comparison).

 

[dyk343]

Western curriculum

CSPM curriculum

Western's curriculum looks pretty fancy on paper. Researching CSPM's curriculum it looks like its much less on paper... but...

How can we be sure that CSPM's Anatomy course doesnt cover "head and neck anatomy", "musculoskeletal system", etc etc.

Or CSPM's "intro to clinical medicine" isn't equivelent to the "physician and society", or "essentials of clinical medicine"?

Maybe CSPM's physiology course covers "cardiovascular system" "Renal system" "endocrine system" etc etc.

To me it looks like Western just breaks down each course into smaller sections with big fancy names while CSPM takes classes titled "physiology".

I researched all the curriculum (below are links) for all the schools except ohio and they are all more or less equivelent. Western's curriculum does stand out as more complex but im not convinced that the other schools are "lacking"

I also dont believe that sitting next to a MD/DO student in class will make me a better podiatrist. I think that argument is bunk. 30 years ago the DO students did not have to sit next to a MD student in class to gain parody. They did it with hard work and public education. Dental/veterinary/pharmacy/physical therapy/physician assistants dont have to sit next to a MD/DO student to be be elite. Why do we?

Sorry to get slightly off topic (although this thread has already turned into a pissing match as many 2+ page threads do)


Temple
DMU
AZPOD
NYCPM
Barry
Scholl
OCPM couldnt find?

 

[janV88]

Western curriculum

CSPM curriculum

Western's curriculum looks pretty fancy on paper. Researching CSPM's curriculum it looks like its much less on paper... but...

How can we be sure that CSPM's Anatomy course doesnt cover "head and neck anatomy", "musculoskeletal system", etc etc.

Or CSPM's "intro to clinical medicine" isn't equivelent to the "physician and society", or "essentials of clinical medicine"?

Maybe CSPM's physiology course covers "cardiovascular system" "Renal system" "endocrine system" etc etc.

To me it looks like Western just breaks down each course into smaller sections with big fancy names while CSPM takes classes titled "physiology".

I researched all the curriculum (below are links) for all the schools except ohio and they are all more or less equivelent. Western's curriculum does stand out as more complex but im not convinced that the other schools are "lacking"

I also dont believe that sitting next to a MD/DO student in class will make me a better podiatrist. I think that argument is bunk. 30 years ago the DO students did not have to sit next to a MD student in class to gain parody. They did it with hard work and public education. Dental/veterinary/pharmacy/physical therapy/physician assistants dont have to sit next to a MD/DO student to be be elite. Why do we?

Sorry to get slightly off topic (although this thread has already turned into a pissing match as many 2+ page threads do)


Temple
DMU
AZPOD
NYCPM
Barry
Scholl
OCPM couldnt find?

Did you happen to check the 3rd year?

 

[dyk343]

Did you happen to check the 3rd year?

Good catch. No I didnt. Western's 3rd year curriculum is more related to the MD/DO world than CSPM's. But I have another argument 🙂

CSPM has been around for ~100 years (1914). Western has been around for 3 and has not graduated a class (meaning no practicing alumni in the state of CA) as of yet.

Suddenly the state of CA wants to review the degrees because either...

1) they think podiatrists in the state of CA are well educated practitioners that deserve more respect based on the quality of their work.

2) They (orthopods😉) think podiatrists in the state of CA are well educated practitioners that do quality work so they should be converted to a MD degree so they can be phased out due to fears that they are being phased out (a bit of a conspiracy theory).

3) Western is the new bad ass on the block and even though they have no practitioners yet they will be the greatest thing to hit podiatry since McDonalds.


Either way Im going to go with CSPM being a major push for equivalency (going out on a limb here... waiting for Crucifixion but hear me out as im pretty board tonight). Im going to assume a majority of the practitioners in the state of CA are alumni of CSPM. If the state suddenly thinks that podiatrists are doing good work we have to give CSPM credit (with the assumption that a large proportion of practitioners are CSPM alumni)


I personally think Western will be a fantastic school. My last posts have seemed anti-western and I apologize for this. I really dont care who is the better school in CA. I just wanted to throw out some evidence when the little guy with no voice is being beat down. Pre-pods take these posts very seriously and may phase out an interview at CSPM alone based on comments they read on SDN. I know I was that naive when I was choosing schools. I bought into all the hype that this school is greater than that school because some anonymous person on the internet said so... sad but true.


Let the crucifixion begin 🙁

 

[air bud]

I thought we already had agreed (at least I did) that "comparing curriculum" is dumb and a waste of time. As least for students. You can make anything sound fancy if you try hard enough. It is different for these organizations that actually really break down and examine what is being taught, having full access to course material and instructors.
Posting links to schools curriculum pages is a waste of time. Do you really think that the CPME would allow for radical differences in the material taught? Of course not. And thats all that can be done by looking at school sites.

 

[dyk343]

I thought we already had agreed (at least I did) that "comparing curriculum" is dumb and a waste of time. As least for students. You can make anything sound fancy if you try hard enough. It is different for these organizations that actually really break down and examine what is being taught, having full access to course material and instructors.
Posting links to schools curriculum pages is a waste of time. Do you really think that the CPME would allow for radical differences in the material taught? Of course not. And thats all that can be done by looking at school sites.

As I already stated... im bored and I for once in a great while have ample time on my hands... but you reinforced my point. There isnt much of a difference in the curriculum.

 

[docdonny]

Good catch. No I didnt. Western's 3rd year curriculum is more related to the MD/DO world than CSPM's. But I have another argument 🙂

CSPM has been around for ~100 years (1914). Western has been around for 3 and has not graduated a class (meaning no practicing alumni in the state of CA) as of yet.

Suddenly the state of CA wants to review the degrees because either...

1) they think podiatrists in the state of CA are well educated practitioners that deserve more respect based on the quality of their work.

2) They (orthopods😉) think podiatrists in the state of CA are well educated practitioners that do quality work so they should be converted to a MD degree so they can be phased out due to fears that they are being phased out (a bit of a conspiracy theory).

3) Western is the new bad ass on the block and even though they have no practitioners yet they will be the greatest thing to hit podiatry since McDonalds.


Either way Im going to go with CSPM being a major push for equivalency (going out on a limb here... waiting for Crucifixion but hear me out as im pretty board tonight). Im going to assume a majority of the practitioners in the state of CA are alumni of CSPM. If the state suddenly thinks that podiatrists are doing good work we have to give CSPM credit (with the assumption that a large proportion of practitioners are CSPM alumni)


I personally think Western will be a fantastic school. My last posts have seemed anti-western and I apologize for this. I really dont care who is the better school in CA. I just wanted to throw out some evidence when the little guy with no voice is being beat down. Pre-pods take these posts very seriously and may phase out an interview at CSPM alone based on comments they read on SDN. I know I was that naive when I was choosing schools. I bought into all the hype that this school is greater than that school because some anonymous person on the internet said so... sad but true.


Let the crucifixion begin 🙁

.

 

[jdikis]

I think people are reading too much into this. I agree that it is a bit hard to understand or interpret. What I would believe is happening is that DPM's are still considered mid-levels by many hospital systems and insurance plans in the state. Reclassifying them as physicians and surgeons may help with the hospital credentialing, surgical privileging, admission privileges, insurance credentialing, etc. But they will still be DPM's practicing within their scope. I'm not so sure about the reimbursement issue in CA. In most states, DPM's are reimbursed the same as MD's. There may be some states where that is not the case (I'm not sure).

However, I don't believe that it means pod students would be awarded MD degrees or anything of the sort.

Common sense alert 😱
This post makes entirely too much sense for this board. 👍

 

[zane870]

Good catch. No I didnt. Western's 3rd year curriculum is more related to the MD/DO world than CSPM's. But I have another argument 🙂

CSPM has been around for ~100 years (1914). Western has been around for 3 and has not graduated a class (meaning no practicing alumni in the state of CA) as of yet.

Suddenly the state of CA wants to review the degrees because either...

1) they think podiatrists in the state of CA are well educated practitioners that deserve more respect based on the quality of their work.

2) They (orthopods😉) think podiatrists in the state of CA are well educated practitioners that do quality work so they should be converted to a MD degree so they can be phased out due to fears that they are being phased out (a bit of a conspiracy theory).

3) Western is the new bad ass on the block and even though they have no practitioners yet they will be the greatest thing to hit podiatry since McDonalds.


Either way Im going to go with CSPM being a major push for equivalency (going out on a limb here... waiting for Crucifixion but hear me out as im pretty board tonight). Im going to assume a majority of the practitioners in the state of CA are alumni of CSPM. If the state suddenly thinks that podiatrists are doing good work we have to give CSPM credit (with the assumption that a large proportion of practitioners are CSPM alumni)


I personally think Western will be a fantastic school. My last posts have seemed anti-western and I apologize for this. I really dont care who is the better school in CA. I just wanted to throw out some evidence when the little guy with no voice is being beat down. Pre-pods take these posts very seriously and may phase out an interview at CSPM alone based on comments they read on SDN. I know I was that naive when I was choosing schools. I bought into all the hype that this school is greater than that school because some anonymous person on the internet said so... sad but true.


Let the crucifixion begin 🙁

This is obviously the correct answer. I'm glad somebody finally had the guts to come out and say it!😛

 

[Footsurg]

I think what he's saying is that even if DPMs get that certificate it isn't going to put them on a level playing field as far as perceptions go because at the end of the day there are differences and DPMs do not equal MDs. Doesn't make them any less or any more than each other, just different. The majority of degree discrimination is personal and even if everything was legally even people would still find reasons to portray themselves to be better than others.

Seems to me that instead of trying to fit into the mold of other doctors, DPMs should continue to promote their differences and exceptional standards of education and training as experts in their field. It's sort of enlightening to read all the posts here from actual podiatrists with a few years under them because they all seem 99.9 happy with their careers as physicians and a more than a few have commented on how they have harmonious professional relationships with MDs because in the end everyone picks a field and sticks with it while relying on the expertise of others to best suit the patients needs.

One of the biggest things drawing me to podiatry is how unique a field it is and how focused the training is. Although to be honest I used to think I would rather be a dentist but I had a serious wake up moment awhile back when my dentist was bitten four times by a patient with tourettes while I was in the next chair. God help him he was professional about it but not sure I could be . 😛

I hope you are a student, because you will probably have "another" wake up call during residency and when get out of residency.

I love what I do and I can board pretty much anything at our hospital, but you will soon get tired of seeing ortho do whatever they want, and take whatever they want out of the ER because they are an MD/DO.

After putting this much time and effort in school/residency you want to have a little respect. When you are training the ortho residents how to fix a bi-mal and you realize you can tackle most other ortho procedures with 5 years of residency, it is frustraing to go out into the real world and be treated like a sub-par physician because of your DPM degree.

Any movemnet towards parity in my mind is a good one. Our best Pod students at DMU scored just as well or higher than the DOs. Really the only difference in intelligence/ability of most young DPM's compared to the MDs is just that, the DPM degree.

 

[tiptoeing]

I hope you are a student, because you will probably have "another" wake up call during residency and when get out of residency.

I love what I do and I can board pretty much anything at our hospital, but you will soon get tired of seeing ortho do whatever they want, and take whatever they want out of the ER because they are an MD/DO.

After putting this much time and effort in school/residency you want to have a little respect. When you are training the ortho residents how to fix a bi-mal and you realize you can tackle most other ortho procedures with 5 years of residency, it is frustraing to go out into the real world and be treated like a sub-par physician because of your DPM degree.

Any movemnet towards parity in my mind is a good one. Our best Pod students at DMU scored just as well or higher than the DOs. Really the only difference in intelligence/ability of most young DPM's compared to the MDs is just that, the DPM degree.

Amen

 

[DrMushroomFoot]

I hope you are a student, because you will probably have "another" wake up call during residency and when get out of residency.

I love what I do and I can board pretty much anything at our hospital, but you will soon get tired of seeing ortho do whatever they want, and take whatever they want out of the ER because they are an MD/DO.

After putting this much time and effort in school/residency you want to have a little respect. When you are training the ortho residents how to fix a bi-mal and you realize you can tackle most other ortho procedures with 5 years of residency, it is frustraing to go out into the real world and be treated like a sub-par physician because of your DPM degree.

Any movemnet towards parity in my mind is a good one. Our best Pod students at DMU scored just as well or higher than the DOs. Really the only difference in intelligence/ability of most young DPM's compared to the MDs is just that, the DPM degree.

Respectfully, I would have to disagree.

For starters, I am at the top of my class at DMU. Not once during my first year have I ever scored below the DO average on any exam (I have yet to score less than 90% on any exam).

Although I hate to admit this, there is in fact a difference in intelligence between the DO and DPM's at DMU.

Two main reason for this conclusion. First, every class basic science class that we (DPM) have taken with the DOs, only once did we have an exam where the DPM average may have been higher than the DO average (reason why I say MAY is because while the DPM average was higher than the DPM+DO+PA average. We have no way of knowing whether the PA's brought down the average or in fact the DPMs scored higher than the DOs) Thus far, DO class average has consistently been higher than the DPM average, this is a FACT.

Second reason is that DPM students here at DMU are taking LESS classes than the DO students, another FACT. While it is true that DPM students take the vast majority of our classes with the DO during our 1st year, DO students are taking additional classes on top of our courseload (for example, OMM, ethics, behavior medicine). Common sense suggests that more classes equals less time for studying and preparing for your exams. There is absolutely NO excuse for the DPM students to be scoring lower than the DOs as we have MUCH MORE time to study due to fewer classes.

This is looking at the DPM and DO class as a whole. Obviously the top students in the DPM class can be considered to have similar intelligence.

 

[fivescrew]

I hope you are a student, because you will probably have "another" wake up call during residency and when get out of residency.

I love what I do and I can board pretty much anything at our hospital, but you will soon get tired of seeing ortho do whatever they want, and take whatever they want out of the ER because they are an MD/DO.

After putting this much time and effort in school/residency you want to have a little respect. When you are training the ortho residents how to fix a bi-mal and you realize you can tackle most other ortho procedures with 5 years of residency, it is frustraing to go out into the real world and be treated like a sub-par physician because of your DPM degree.

Any movemnet towards parity in my mind is a good one. Our best Pod students at DMU scored just as well or higher than the DOs. Really the only difference in intelligence/ability of most young DPM's compared to the MDs is just that, the DPM degree.

I understand that it might be frustrating to get disrespect from someone of comparable skill or vocation but truthfully those are the sorts of people that would find any reason to disrespect you regardless of your degree. At that point you have to ask yourself how much of your self-image and sense of worth are you getting from others.

I never said DPMs shouldn't be or aren't respected. Just that there are better ways to make your self more accepted than changing who you are as a profession. You can gain equal pay and respect as a physician without losing your identity and in the long run, if anything comes from this "task force", I think that will be it. Podiatry bending to fit someones idea of what a doc should be.

Instead of proclaiming your similarities podiatry should be promoting what sets it apart from any other doctor. Outside of dentistry how many doctors can say they have specialized from day one?

 

[TimmyT]

Respectfully, I would have to disagree.

For starters, I am at the top of my class at DMU. Not once during my first year have I ever scored below the DO average on any exam (I have yet to score less than 90% on any exam).

Although I hate to admit this, there is in fact a difference in intelligence between the DO and DPM's at DMU.

Two main reason for this conclusion. First, every class basic science class that we (DPM) have taken with the DOs, only once did we have an exam where the DPM average may have been higher than the DO average (reason why I say MAY is because while the DPM average was higher than the DPM+DO+PA average. We have no way of knowing whether the PA's brought down the average or in fact the DPMs scored higher than the DOs) Thus far, DO class average has consistently been higher than the DPM average, this is a FACT.

Second reason is that DPM students here at DMU are taking LESS classes than the DO students, another FACT. While it is true that DPM students take the vast majority of our classes with the DO during our 1st year, DO students are taking additional classes on top of our courseload (for example, OMM, ethics, behavior medicine). Common sense suggests that more classes equals less time for studying and preparing for your exams. There is absolutely NO excuse for the DPM students to be scoring lower than the DOs as we have MUCH MORE time to study due to fewer classes.

This is looking at the DPM and DO class as a whole. Obviously the top students in the DPM class can be considered to have similar intelligence.

At Western, our averages have been lower than the DOs as well but we have more on our plate than they do. While they take OMM, we take PMP (which has all our podiatry classes clumped together into one class a semester). My roommate is a 2nd year med student and he tells me all the time that our program is much harder than theirs. Their OMM course is very hands on and not very rigorous. He only studies for his mid-term and final 2 days before the practical and passes easily. Since we have MORE material and LESS time than the DOs our averages have been consistently 10 points BELOW their averages. But our Podiatry program has built a very good reputation on campus. Everyone at Western knows the Podiatry program is the hardest hands down.

 

[zane870]

At Western, our averages have been lower than the DOs as well but we have more on our plate than they do. While they take OMM, we take PMP (which has all our podiatry classes clumped together into one class a semester). My roommate is a 2nd year med student and he tells me all the time that our program is much harder than theirs. Their OMM course is very hands on and not very rigorous. He only studies for his mid-term and final 2 days before the practical and passes easily. Since we have MORE material and LESS time than the DOs our averages have been consistently 10 points BELOW their averages. But our Podiatry program has built a very good reputation on campus. Everyone at Western knows the Podiatry program is the hardest hands down.

Not to mention the DO class is full of "gunners"😀

Our program is more rigorous and we have 35 people in our program compared to 220ish in the DO program. A few less than stellar grades on a given test affects our average more than the DO. We in podiatry joke about the OMM class the DOs have. They pretty much just strip down half naked and give each other messages

 

[hematosis]

Not to mention the DO class is full of "gunners"😀

Our program is more rigorous and we have 35 people in our program compared to 220ish in the DO program. A few less than stellar grades on a given test affects our average more than the DO. We in podiatry joke about the OMM class the DOs have. They pretty much just strip down half naked and give each other messages

hehehehe 🙂

 

[BioPod]

Respectfully, I would have to disagree.

For starters, I am at the top of my class at DMU. Not once during my first year have I ever scored below the DO average on any exam (I have yet to score less than 90% on any exam).

Although I hate to admit this, there is in fact a difference in intelligence between the DO and DPM's at DMU.

Two main reason for this conclusion. First, every class basic science class that we (DPM) have taken with the DOs, only once did we have an exam where the DPM average may have been higher than the DO average (reason why I say MAY is because while the DPM average was higher than the DPM+DO+PA average. We have no way of knowing whether the PA's brought down the average or in fact the DPMs scored higher than the DOs) Thus far, DO class average has consistently been higher than the DPM average, this is a FACT.

Second reason is that DPM students here at DMU are taking LESS classes than the DO students, another FACT. While it is true that DPM students take the vast majority of our classes with the DO during our 1st year, DO students are taking additional classes on top of our courseload (for example, OMM, ethics, behavior medicine). Common sense suggests that more classes equals less time for studying and preparing for your exams. There is absolutely NO excuse for the DPM students to be scoring lower than the DOs as we have MUCH MORE time to study due to fewer classes.

This is looking at the DPM and DO class as a whole. Obviously the top students in the DPM class can be considered to have similar intelligence.

When looking at averages you need to take into account the size of the population from which you are garnering these averages. From what I understand, there are ~4 times as many DOs as DPMs at DMU.

Now, lets say that student P is a podiatry student who scores poorly on an exam and that student O is a DO student who also performs poorly on the same exam. Student P's low score will affect the DPM average much more (about 4x as much) than student O's low exam score would affect the DO average.

My point with what I am saying is you need to be very careful when comparing averages of different population sizes. I am in no way trying to disagree with your logic when comparing the average intelligence of a DO and DPM at DMU, but instead of the way you go about said comparison.

Do you think that there is a large discrepancy in the average intelligence of a DO vs. a DPM or are you just saying that there is a difference? Your post, for me, wasn't clear about this.

 

[DrMushroomFoot]

When looking at averages you need to take into account the size of the population from which you are garnering these averages. From what I understand, there are ~4 times as many DOs as DPMs at DMU.

Now, lets say that student P is a podiatry student who scores poorly on an exam and that student O is a DO student who also performs poorly on the same exam. Student P's low score will affect the DPM average much more (about 4x as much) than student O's low exam score would affect the DO average.

My point with what I am saying is you need to be very careful when comparing averages of different population sizes. I am in no way trying to disagree with your logic when comparing the average intelligence of a DO and DPM at DMU, but instead of the way you go about said comparison.

Do you think that there is a large discrepancy in the average intelligence of a DO vs. a DPM or are you just saying that there is a difference? Your post, for me, wasn't clear about this.

I agree that when comparing averages, the sampling size MUST be considered. However, with the DPM class at 50+ students, I feel this is a sufficient number to take into account for outliers that skew the data.

Referring to your comment, if you consider the negative outlier that brings down the averages, you MUST also take into consideration the positive outliers that bring up the averages. As I mentioned before, I am at the top of my class but by NO means am I number one in my class. The #1 in my class is a genius (imo) and am glad we have someone like him in our profession to represent us well.

Based on my previous post, I mentioned that there is a difference in intelligence however I did NOT state whether that difference is great or small. While the DPMs have been scoring lower than the DOs on every exam, we have always been within ~5% of the DO's exam score. Although some may consider this to be close to the DOs, I would disagree as we DPMs should be ~5% HIGHER than the DOs if we were truely at the same intelligence (due to reason 2 that I stated in my previous post).

 

[janV88]

I agree that when comparing averages, the sampling size MUST be considered. However, with the DPM class at 50+ students, I feel this is a sufficient number to take into account for outliers that skew the data.

Referring to your comment, if you consider the negative outlier that brings down the averages, you MUST also take into consideration the positive outliers that bring up the averages. As I mentioned before, I am at the top of my class but by NO means am I number one in my class. The #1 in my class is a genius (imo) and am glad we have someone like him in our profession to represent us well.

Based on my previous post, I mentioned that there is a difference in intelligence however I did NOT state whether that difference is great or small. While the DPMs have been scoring lower than the DOs on every exam, we have always been within ~5% of the DO's exam score. Although some may consider this to be close to the DOs, I would disagree as we DPMs should be ~5% HIGHER than the DOs if we were truely at the same intelligence (due to reason 2 that I stated in my previous post).

Would you say the difference between DPMs and DOs at DMU could be comparable to DMU-COM vs some other DO with lower incoming stats? If I recall correctly, DMU-COM is one of the "higher end" DO schools.

 

[BioPod]

I agree that when comparing averages, the sampling size MUST be considered. However, with the DPM class at 50+ students, I feel this is a sufficient number to take into account for outliers that skew the data.

Referring to your comment, if you consider the negative outlier that brings down the averages, you MUST also take into consideration the positive outliers that bring up the averages. As I mentioned before, I am at the top of my class but by NO means am I number one in my class. The #1 in my class is a genius (imo) and am glad we have someone like him in our profession to represent us well.

Based on my previous post, I mentioned that there is a difference in intelligence however I did NOT state whether that difference is great or small. While the DPMs have been scoring lower than the DOs on every exam, we have always been within ~5% of the DO's exam score. Although some may consider this to be close to the DOs, I would disagree as we DPMs should be ~5% HIGHER than the DOs if we were truely at the same intelligence (due to reason 2 that I stated in my previous post).

Thank you for your response. Although I still have an issue with how you are comparing averages I don't think I will pursue it any longer so as to avoid any more contribution I have made to the derailment of this post.

I do want to reiterate that I don't completely disagree with your conclusion, though.

Would you say the difference between DPMs and DOs at DMU could be comparable to DMU-COM vs some other DO with lower incoming stats? If I recall correctly, DMU-COM is one of the "higher end" DO schools.

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/2006statrpt/Documents/page 9.pdf

I know that this is old, but if you use that information you could probably say that the average gpa/mcat of DPMs at DMU are comparable if not equivalent to that of the average DO school. I hope that answers your question.

 

[DrRicky23]

I dont see very much love on here for CSPM... especially when Western has not even graduated a class or completed boards yet. It doesnt really matter to me... but I see some bold statements being made.

I don't really understand this statement. Are you saying there is more love for Western? I've seen quite a bit of Western bashing on here. That GimliofGloin comes to mind ... kinda miss that guy

 

[TimmyT]

When using statistics and comparing averages, you always have to look at the sample size you are collecting from. obviously if one sample was significantly larger than another, it is unfair to to expect to have the same averages. I personally don't think the DO are smarter. It all comes down to the person who works the hardest. Since the DO have to compete for specialties, I believe there are more gunners in the DO program. And for those people who were bashing Western, they had no idea what they are Talking about. They must of heard it from a friend who knew a friend who overheard someone who said it to someone else. Son of glion or whatever his name is was probably a ex-western student who couldn't cut it at western.

 

[hematosis]

yea i miss gimli son of golin too.I have no doubt in my mind that he will be back.

 

[robopod97]

At Western, our averages have been lower than the DOs as well but we have more on our plate than they do. While they take OMM, we take PMP (which has all our podiatry classes clumped together into one class a semester). My roommate is a 2nd year med student and he tells me all the time that our program is much harder than theirs. Their OMM course is very hands on and not very rigorous. He only studies for his mid-term and final 2 days before the practical and passes easily. Since we have MORE material and LESS time than the DOs our averages have been consistently 10 points BELOW their averages. But our Podiatry program has built a very good reputation on campus. Everyone at Western knows the Podiatry program is the hardest hands down.

I hear the podiatry students at Western are graded on a different scale than the DO students? I believe at Midwestern and DMU there is no such differential. Must be all the additional academic work the podiatry students have at Western compared to their DO counterparts. Is that the best you can come up with. LOL

 

[FiveOVicryl]

When using statistics and comparing averages, you always have to look at the sample size you are collecting from. obviously if one sample was significantly larger than another, it is unfair to to expect to have the same averages. I personally don't think the DO are smarter. It all comes down to the person who works the hardest. Since the DO have to compete for specialties, I believe there are more gunners in the DO program. And for those people who were bashing Western, they had no idea what they are Talking about. They must of heard it from a friend who knew a friend who overheard someone who said it to someone else. Son of glion or whatever his name is was probably a ex-western student who couldn't cut it at western.

Are you kidding? You dont need to look no further than entrance statistics for the answer. Look at the average matriculants from DPM, DO, and MD. It is a NO BRAINER that it goes MD>>>DO>DPM in terms of intelligence. Isnt it ironic that DPMs have a residency shortage and yet people think DO/MD are "smarter" or study harder because they have to compete for specialties? You would think that DPMs would attempt to be like those "gunners" to secure that residency spot (food for thought).

 

[janV88]

I hear the podiatry students at Western are graded on a different scale than the DO students? I believe at Midwestern and DMU there is no such differential. Must be all the additional academic work the podiatry students have at Western compared to their DO counterparts. Is that the best you can come up with. LOL

You should really fact check your info before calling people out...

 

[janV88]

Are you kidding? You dont need to look no further than entrance statistics for the answer. Look at the average matriculants from DPM, DO, and MD. It is a NO BRAINER that it goes MD>>>DO>DPM in terms of intelligence. Isnt it ironic that DPMs have a residency shortage and yet people think DO/MD are "smarter" or study harder because they have to compete for specialties? You would think that DPMs would attempt to be like those "gunners" to secure that residency spot (food for thought).

Don't worry. There are plenty of DPM "gunners" shooting for the 4.0 and the top residencies out there. There are also plenty of slacker MD/DO who are just looking to pass. Yes you are correct about the entrance stats but I agree with TimmyT that what really matters is who is willing to put in the most work.

 

[BioPod]

Are you kidding? You dont need to look no further than entrance statistics for the answer. Look at the average matriculants from DPM, DO, and MD. It is a NO BRAINER that it goes MD>>>DO>DPM in terms of intelligence. Isnt it ironic that DPMs have a residency shortage and yet people think DO/MD are "smarter" or study harder because they have to compete for specialties? You would think that DPMs would attempt to be like those "gunners" to secure that residency spot (food for thought).

Holy arrogance batman!

How you could blatantly state that the intelligence of someone with, or getting, a MD is vastly superior to that of a DO or DPM is astonishing. Perhaps you could say that it's likely that the average intelligence of a MD is higher than the average intelligence of a DPM or DO, but to state that it's a "no brainer" that, in general, MD>>>DO>DPM is a fallacy. Keep in mind that you are making these assumptions based off of rather inaccurate measures of intelligence. In reality, there are both equally highly intelligent people in all three fields as well as equally unintelligent people in each field. It'll do you a world of good in the future if you leave some of that arrogance at the door.

The residency shortage isn't such that people need to be actively competing for a spot. From what I understand (someone correct me if I am wrong) it's a very small percentage of students who don't end up getting a residency. These are the students who perform very poorly in school or don't pass their boards.

 

[janV88]

The residency shortage isn't such that people need to be actively competing for a spot. From what I understand (someone correct me if I am wrong) it's a very small percentage of students who don't end up getting a residency. There are the students who perform very poorly in school or don't pass their boards.

You are correct. I don't remember the EXACT numbers but at the rate we are going, the shortage will most likely be non-existent by the time the class of 2014 starts residency.

 

[air bud]

Holy arrogance batman!

How you could blatantly state that the intelligence of someone with, or getting, a MD is vastly superior to that of a DO or DPM is astonishing. Perhaps you could say that it's likely that the average intelligence of a MD is higher than the average intelligence of a DPM or DO, but to state that it's a "no brainer" that, in general, MD>>>DO>DPM is a fallacy. Keep in mind that you are making these assumptions based off of rather inaccurate measures of intelligence. In reality, there are both equally highly intelligent people in all three fields as well as equally unintelligent people in each field. It'll do you a world of good in the future if you leave some of that arrogance at the door.

The residency shortage isn't such that people need to be actively competing for a spot. From what I understand (someone correct me if I am wrong) it's a very small percentage of students who don't end up getting a residency. There are the students who perform very poorly in school or don't pass their boards.

It's still a competition. Not all residencies are created equal. It is all about options.

 

[FiveOVicryl]

Holy arrogance batman!

How you could blatantly state that the intelligence of someone with, or getting, a MD is vastly superior to that of a DO or DPM is astonishing. Perhaps you could say that it's likely that the average intelligence of a MD is higher than the average intelligence of a DPM or DO, but to state that it's a "no brainer" that, in general, MD>>>DO>DPM is a fallacy. Keep in mind that you are making these assumptions based off of rather inaccurate measures of intelligence. In reality, there are both equally highly intelligent people in all three fields as well as equally unintelligent people in each field. It'll do you a world of good in the future if you leave some of that arrogance at the door.

The residency shortage isn't such that people need to be actively competing for a spot. From what I understand (someone correct me if I am wrong) it's a very small percentage of students who don't end up getting a residency. There are the students who perform very poorly in school or don't pass their boards.

How is GPA and MCAT "inaccurate measure of intelligence?" Studies have show that GPA and MCAT correlates with how well you'll do in medical school. Regarding the entrance statistics, you can show these numbers to anyone on the street and they'll tell you exactly what I have already stated.

Now, to address the issue regarding parity. The biggest downfall to the DPM profession is by far the quality of the applicants. I am willing to bet that if the applicant pool rivaled that of the MD world, this whole parity issue would not exist. It is time the DPM profession stop making excusing/sugar coating these issues and attempt to solve them.

 

[javajava]

Before this turns to a DPM vs DO vs MD thread, Id like to remind everyone that this is the cali thread, not comparison thread

I know its tempting to compare the three profession together, hell while we are at it lets throw in DDS vs DMD too or DVM, but at the end of the arguing it is what it is and if you dont like it then dont join the profession

 

[BioPod]

You are correct. I don't remember the EXACT numbers but at the rate we are going, the shortage will most likely be non-existent by the time the class of 2014 starts residency.

Thank you.

It's still a competition. Not all residencies are created equal. It is all about options.

I understand that it's still a competition, but not in the way FiveOVicryl was implying.

How is GPA and MCAT "inaccurate measure of intelligence?" Studies have show that GPA and MCAT correlates with how well you'll do in medical school. Regarding the entrance statistics, you can show these numbers to anyone on the street and they'll tell you exactly what I have already stated.

It's inaccurate because your GPA and MCAT scores measure much more than just your level of intelligence. There are far too many variables involved in the outcome of your GPA and MCAT; such as, motivation, life, level of happiness, etc, that need to be taken into account when looking at these scores. GPA and MCAT scores shouldn't be looked at in a vacuum.

I would agree that it's probably safe to assume that someone with a high GPA and/or a high MCAT is intelligent, but you can't assume their level of intelligence from that. However, I would disagree with most assumptions of someones intelligence based off of a low GPA and/or low MCAT.

Before this turns to a DPM vs DO vs MD thread, Id like to remind everyone that this is the cali thread, not comparison thread

I know its tempting to compare the three profession together, hell while we are at it lets throw in DDS vs DMD too or DVM, but at the end of the arguing it is what it is and if you dont like it then dont join the profession

Good point. I'll stop.

 

[Billy Scholl]

You should check your facts before writting on here, as of right now there are going to be shortages in class 2012 (not that much) and class of 2013 ( 100 spots short) that is 1/6 students not getting a spot, an example is the whole class of 2013 at scholl not getting a spot. There was a shortage this year and they fixed it for the most part by have current residencies expand their spot, so that option is pretty much out the window for a 100 spots so what this means for your class of 2014 the ppl who don't match will compete for your spots. Where did I get my info check APMSA president reports and you will see the year Western opened up, every school increased their class sizes even though they knew about the shortage in 2011. Now with the new model of residency (until they change it in a couple of years) that requires all the progrms to go to 3 years which requires funding, this means some programs will close down and some won't be able to expand what they have because years back they told the CMS that podiatry residency requires only 2 years to complete and when they switched to 3 years the hospital had to fund 1/2 of the expenses of the resident for the 3rd year. Anyways you can research the topic yourself.
Im not saying its all doom from here on out, but next time don't comment on something you have no idea about. Your just a P1 at Scholl and half the stuff you say don't make any sense, I decided to come on here and set you and ankle breaker straight, some stuff you say are correct but the rest of your posts are just not accurate. You guys make Scholl students sound arrogant and duechy. Please stop repeating what the faculty feeds you on these forums. Wait till you go through second year then talk.
I just want readers to know that Im not saying Scholl is bad, Ive been happy here, I don't want ppl to think we all act like these guys at scholl, were just like other schools all the same, at the end we all get DPMs ( aside from California which no one knows what they are gonna get) it doesn't matter if your smart dumb, take one class with MD's, all classes with DO's, taught by same professors as a MD school, or take classes in a room were they once had a MD conference that had one guy in there who was an orthopedic surgeon ect.. Western, with all do respect to Dr. Harkless he is a great Dr. and educator, should focus on increasing residency spots atleast for their graduates first then continue on the parity issue. there is no other profession that after 4 years and 200k in debt 100 ppl might not be able to do anything with it (I know this number will be lower at the end) that is 20 mil wasted. The ppl in charge of the politics should just slow down a little and fix some of the small things in the prefessoin before trying to get parity, MD degree, DO degree, or whatever else.
I know this is a long reply but I just couldn't sit there and read some of the stuff on here, Jan and Anlke breaker don't even waste my time or yours replying, Im not gonna read it. Just sit there behind your computer and think before you try to be the Scholl police and be nice to other posters, getting an A in structure and function doesn't make you awsome (a lot ppl get A's) your in podiatry school and at the end of the day the guy at the bottom of the class is going to work on the foot and the guy at the top of the class is gonna work on the foot it just doesn't matter.
Peace out.
Billy Scholl

 

[fivescrew]

100 spots short? If that's true, that seems irresponsible.

 

[janV88]

You should check your facts before writting on here, as of right now there are going to be shortages in class 2012 (not that much) and class of 2013 ( 100 spots short) that is 1/6 students not getting a spot, an example is the whole class of 2013 at scholl not getting a spot. There was a shortage this year and they fixed it for the most part by have current residencies expand their spot, so that option is pretty much out the window for a 100 spots so what this means for your class of 2014 the ppl who don't match will compete for your spots.

I couldn't find info on how many the class of 2011 started off with but it looks like around the same as c/o 2012.
Class of 2012 started off with 626 students
Class of 2013 started off with 687 students
Class of 2014 started off with 671 students

When you say 100 spots short, that's based on the number of residency spots as of today. I guess the question is, can we increase the number of residency spots by 100 in the next 2 years for class of 2013. I think we will but that's just my opinion.

Now with the new model of residency (until they change it in a couple of years) that requires all the progrms to go to 3 years which requires funding, this means some programs will close down and some won't be able to expand what they have because years back they told the CMS that podiatry residency requires only 2 years to complete and when they switched to 3 years the hospital had to fund 1/2 of the expenses of the resident for the 3rd year. Anyways you can research the topic yourself.

The 3 year residency is not a new concept. All they did was make it mandatory at a time where the MAJORITY of residency spots were already 3 years. Making it mandatory 3 years is the first step in attaining FULL FUNDING for the 3rd year.

... Your just a P1 at Scholl and half the stuff you say don't make any sense, I decided to come on here and set you and ankle breaker straight, some stuff you say are correct but the rest of your posts are just not accurate. You guys make Scholl students sound arrogant and duechy. Please stop repeating what the faculty feeds you on these forums. Wait till you go through second year then talk...

I don't really care what you think of my posts but maybe you should take your own advice and not come off as arrogant and be nice to other posters.

I have heard a lot about 2nd year but believe it or not, the admin did listen and are making a lot of changes. It's prob not gonna be perfect but I am trying to be optimistic.

I just want readers to know that Im not saying Scholl is bad, Ive been happy here, I don't want ppl to think we all act like these guys at scholl, were just like other schools all the same, at the end we all get DPMs ( aside from California which no one knows what they are gonna get)..

Cali will still get the DPM. The changes, if there are any, will only affect the incoming class after the change has been made.

your in podiatry school and at the end of the day the guy at the bottom of the class is going to work on the foot and the guy at the top of the class is gonna work on the foot it just doesn't matter.

This is a very selfish thing to say. It's all about what you will be able to do in the end...not once did you mention your patients.

Now I'm not saying I'm smart or anything but I do try very hard in all my classes. I'm not happy with just passing, I want to do well. This is because...the more you read/learn the more you will know and thus the better patient care you will be able to provide.

In the words of Dr. B, "Would you want a minimally competent Physician treating you?"

 

[fivescrew]

What's a realistic number of people who start school but never finish? I'm guessing nowhere near 100 a year?

 

[janV88]

What's a realistic number of people who start school but never finish? I'm guessing nowhere near 100 a year?

The class of 2012 started with 626 and as of the beginning of this year they had 557. The numbers from 3rd to 4th year usually stay the same so in this example they will have lost ~11% (69) of students from start to finish.

 

[fivescrew]

The class of 2012 started with 626 and as of the beginning of this year they had 557. The numbers from 3rd to 4th year usually stay the same so in this example they will have lost ~11% (69) of students from start to finish.

So being 100 spots short based on entrance numbers isn't all that unmanageable I'd guess? Or is that 100 spot estimate based on the estimated graduation rate?

 

[FiveOVicryl]

When you say 100 spots short, that's based on the number of residency spots as of today. I guess the question is, can we increase the number of residency spots by 100 in the next 2 years for class of 2013. I think we will but that's just my opinion.

Seriously? 100 spots in2 years? lol

Okay, there are essentially 2 ways of creating more spots, either you create a new residency program or you add more slots to existing residency programs.

The ideal situation would be to create 100 new positions through new residency programs. Thats not going to happen over a 2 year span.

If you add 100 new spots to the existing programs that would be a disaster to the profession. The programs that exist currently that can take additional residents are most likely the stronger programs due to abundant case numbers that they offer. If you add more residents, you effectively dilute that program, no way around this dilema. Sure everyone may still complete there minimal requirements but that is it, you will have accomplished just that, the bare minimum. 100 new slots to the stronger residency programs would create a situation where everyone gets the same mediocre training.

This profession prides itself on being experts in the foot and ankle, you do not want to promote the profession through mediocre training.

I would say that a 100 residency shortage is not such a bad thing. You will have increased competition and thus stronger candidates and physicians in the long run. Who care really about those who werent qualified or applied themselves enough to get that residency spot anyways.

 

[zane870]

Western, with all do respect to Dr. Harkless he is a great Dr. and educator, should focus on increasing residency spots atleast for their graduates first then continue on the parity issue.

Hello Billy Scholl.

Trust me, Dr. Harkless works endlessly to make sure Western students will be taken care of. He has already opened countless doors in SoCal that previously had locked podiatry out. I feel that if the administrators at the other schools or other big names in the profession worked as hard as he did then the residency shortage would be a thing of the past.

So with all do respect to you Mr. Billy Scholl, you should shoot him an email sometime just to see what has been done to increase opportunities for future WesternU grads before you come on here making critical statements.

Peace Out😀

 

[347932]

I feel that if the administrators at the other schools or other big names in the profession worked as hard as he did then the residency shortage would be a thing of the past.

Please read the countless posts in the past about this. You are not well informed about the process and your criticism is not well placed.

 

[zane870]

Please read the countless posts in the past about this. You are not well informed about the process and your criticism is not well placed.

You are taking my statement to the extreme. I'm not saying there aren't many out there who aren't, but there is certainly always room for more. How did we let the residency shortage happen?


I'm very appreciative of you Kidsfeet. I'm well aware through your posts that you have fought and worked your butt off for the profession as have PADPM and many more on this site. I'm just saying there is always more that can be done.

 

[RATM2010]

Why is this forum so long. This is the biggest waste of all of the people's time who posted so many times about probabilities that are NOT VALID. Who cares who is smarter. Owww, look at me. My name is Dr. Mushroomfeet and I'm at the top of my class and I'm super duper smart just like the DO students while the lower DMU pod students are not. Oww, Western pod students are smarter than CSPM due to their obvious more complex schedule, sorry DYK but its true. Until Western PODIATRY boards come out, I don't want to hear nothign from that school. CSPM can not pick their curriculum. They can only take the classes placed in front of them just like MD/DO/and other pod students around the country. Personally, I wish out 3rd yr was more overall medicine like western, but its not and there is nothing I do do about it. Everyone, worry about your own class average and curriculum and the red tape will sort itself out in a couple of years. My first and last post in this thread.

 

[FiveOVicryl]

Why is this forum so long. This is the biggest waste of all of the people's time who posted so many times about probabilities that are NOT VALID. Who cares who is smarter. Owww, look at me. My name is Dr. Mushroomfeet and I'm at the top of my class and I'm super duper smart just like the DO students while the lower DMU pod students are not. Oww, Western pod students are smarter than CSPM due to their obvious more complex schedule, sorry DYK but its true. Until Western PODIATRY boards come out, I don't want to hear nothign from that school. CSPM can not pick their curriculum. They can only take the classes placed in front of them just like MD/DO/and other pod students around the country. Personally, I wish out 3rd yr was more overall medicine like western, but its not and there is nothing I do do about it. Everyone, worry about your own class average and curriculum and the red tape will sort itself out in a couple of years. My first and last post in this thread.

Interesting. This must be the "immaturity" that Kidsfeet so wisely pointed out.

First off, this parity issue is a bid deal and a hot topic on SDN. There are threads on this subject in the Allopathic, Osteopathic, and Podiatry forums.

MD>DO>DPM in terms of entrance stats, that is so obvious to any objective individual. Obviously since you scored a 19 on the MCAT objectivity is out the window. Seriously? A 19 MCAT screams I'm super duper smart and I deserve to be a doctor!!! Wake up, not everyone in this world is special and deserves to be a physician.

 

[javajava]

Obviously since you scored a 19 on the MCAT objectivity is out the window. Seriously? A 19 MCAT screams I'm super duper smart and I deserve to be a doctor!!! Wake up, not everyone in this world is special and deserves to be a physician.

I found more of this immaturity. What a phenomenon.

 

[tiptoeing]

Fivescrew, where are you? I thought our exchange was bad until I saw some of these...

 

[shenanigans327]

Interesting. This must be the "immaturity" that Kidsfeet so wisely pointed out.

First off, this parity issue is a bid deal and a hot topic on SDN. There are threads on this subject in the Allopathic, Osteopathic, and Podiatry forums.

MD>DO>DPM in terms of entrance stats, that is so obvious to any objective individual. Obviously since you scored a 19 on the MCAT objectivity is out the window. Seriously? A 19 MCAT screams I'm super duper smart and I deserve to be a doctor!!! Wake up, not everyone in this world is special and deserves to be a physician.

Because making inflammatory statements with blatant spelling/grammatical mistakes really do wonders for your argument... 🙄

 

[Pod Newman]

More info. http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2011/06/27/prl20627.htm.

 

[fivescrew]

Fivescrew, where are you? I thought our exchange was bad until I saw some of these...

hahah. The difference being we had the ability to come to an understanding like adults, this person just seems like he wants to troll for no reason other than to do it.

The whole question of who is smarter or which school is harder is all subjective. I personally think(without having gone to either) that from a purely educational outlook podiatry school would be harder because not only are you learning about whole body medicine\physiology you are also getting intense education in a complex area of the body.

This is purely my opinion based off what I've learned through studying both and from the study habits of my DO student brother who studies no more than a few hours a day and still manages to be near the top of his class.