More on Affirmative Action

[notapremed]

1Viking wrote on the other AA thread
I am not proud of my citizenship when I think
about our involvement in slavery. I think we need to help all we can--even if
I get screwed (I didn't get accepted to my state school, even though
minorities with half my credentials got in).
1Viking, I think most of us know that the only thing the US did with the slavery business is "they abolished it". So you should be proud of your citizenship!

Back to the AA issue. It may be OK to give some preferred treatments to the
american slaves' descendents as retribution, but it is absurd to hand
the same favor to first and second generations of immigrants from
africa and mexico since they or their parents came here by choice.

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[Blake]

I think most of us know that the only thing the US did with the slavery business is to abolish it.

Geez, people these days

With that being said, it's really useless to discuss about AA here. People aren't willing to understand each other, so let it rest, ok ?

 

[1viking]

1Viking, I think most of us know that the only thing the US did with the slavery business is "they abolished it".

you need a lesson on history. You should read this essay:

Fogel, Robert W., Engerman, Stanley L. "Explaining the Relative Efficiency of Slave Agriculture in the Antebellum South"; Source: American Economic Review. June 1977. p.275-96.

Fogel got the Nobel Prize in Economics, mainly for this work which shows how slavery was wonderful for the Southern economy. What created a stir, however, was that he proved in this paper that slaves were not beaten daily, but in average 3 times a year. He showed that slave masters wanted their slaves in tip top shape so that they could have a comparative advantage over the north. People hated the paper and him (and many still do). Lesson? The southern economy was and is powerful because of slavery. Who reaped the rewards, though? Not the slaves. The U.S. did a heck of a lot more than just end slavery--countless died trying to keep it alive.

 

[josephgoro]

i don't get it. all the ex-slaves are dead. aren't they?

 

[mosoriire]

Right, all the ex-slaves are dead, so never mind the people that couldnt go to your normal run-of-the mill public university until 1967, just because they dont burn when they get a decent dose of sunlight...Do the calculations, idiot...if integrated education didnt really come into full swing at the college level nationally until about 1974, a student who applied to college at the age of 17 then will be only 47 now...sobering, isnt it, when you think of how old your parents are? Oh, no...you dont care, do you.

Why dont peole get it into their thick skulls that affirmative action has NOTHING to do with slavery. The slavery perspective is what unapologetic bigots use to shield the fact that until very recently, discrimination and intentional deprivation of opportunities was an ingrained part of American life. I cant understand why Americans cant get out of their comfortable skins to actually look at the argument from both sides of the coin...

 

[kinetic]

Right, all the ex-slaves are dead, so never mind the people that couldnt go to your normal run-of-the mill public university until 1967, just because they dont burn when they get a decent dose of sunlight...Do the calculations, idiot...if integrated education didnt really come into full swing at the college level nationally until about 1974, a student who applied to college at the age of 17 then will be only 47 now...sobering, isnt it, when you think of how old your parents are? Oh, no...you dont care, do you.

Why dont peole get it into their thick skulls that affirmative action has NOTHING to do with slavery. The slavery perspective is what unapologetic bigots use to shield the fact that until very recently, discrimination and intentional deprivation of opportunities was an ingrained part of American life. I cant understand why Americans cant get out of their comfortable skins to actually look at the argument from both sides of the coin...

Yeah, why can't people get it into their thick skulls that affirmative action is about perpetuating a self-perception of entitlement and victimhood in blacks? Rather than pushing themselves to overcome an obstacle, real or percieved, blacks are being trained to depend on a system that FAVORS them because of their race. If we go with the usual liberal solution track record, I predict that in 50 years, we'll be ....right in the same place we are now, with minorities underperforming, requiring assistance, and still clamoring that they are being affected by institutional racism and bias.

 

[Blake]

Yeah, why can't people get it into their thick skulls that affirmative action is about perpetuating a self-perception of entitlement and victimhood in blacks? Rather than pushing themselves to overcome an obstacle, real or percieved, blacks are being trained to depend on a system that FAVORS them because of their race. If we go with the usual liberal solution track record, I predict that in 50 years, we'll be ....right in the same place we are now, with minorities underperforming, requiring assistance, and still clamoring that they are being affected by institutional racism and bias.

You really need to drop the '' liberal '' stuff, seriously. The rest of your post was gibberish, as usual

 

[Shades McCool]

Work hard in school. If you can't be competitive grade and MCAT-wise then you should not want an acceptance. That is the way I feel. I don't want an asterisk by my name.

The same goes for being given anything. I don't care if it is because of URM status, wealthy family or what, I want to step back and say "They wanted me because I have proven that I will be something special."

 

[papertiger]

I don't think race has anything to do with how smart you are, which is why Affirmative Action is absolutely ******ed, because it implies that one race is or isn't smarter than the next.

Sure, statistics show that black people score lower on standardized tests and get lower grades in school. But does that mean we should say "Okay, that settles it. All black people are *****s so we need to help them as much as possible. Bring on the Affirmative Action!"

 

[MEG@COOL]

They should give all the dead slaves honorary M.D's.

 

[MEG@COOL]

Actually, it would probably be more appropriate to give them D.O's since they would only be honorary Doctors.

 

[thewzdoc]

How many medical schools would really accept a person that couldn?t complete the course work and pass USMLE steps!? Come on?. this is all just a big friggen metal masturbation party people. Everyone in MED school is there because the adcoms saw something in them; maybe it?s beyond the numbers. What is the pass percentage for URM?s in med school?could it be about the same as for whites!?

 

[JohnDO]

Actually, it would probably be more appropriate to give them D.O's since they would only be honorary Doctors.

As if this thread wasn't hot enough already.

 

[thewzdoc]

As if this thread wasn't hot enough already.

He/She is just fishing....let it go....ignore the Trollish posts

 

[papertiger]

How many medical schools would really accept a person that couldn?t complete the course work and pass USMLE steps!? Come on?. this is all just a big friggen metal masturbation party people. Everyone in MED school is there because the adcoms saw something in them; maybe it?s beyond the numbers. What is the pass percentage for URM?s in med school?could it be about the same as for whites!?

It's not about only being able to complete the coursework. Its about accepting another person with lower stats just because they are an URM to a person with better stats that could have become a better doctor. I'm sure there are URM's with great stats that can get into med school without having to use AA.

 

[Vandyfox]

Just to help clarify a few things (then I'll give my opinion)

As mentioned, AA is intended to eventually help level the playing field. The argument isn't that one race is "dumber" than another so they need help. It's more along the lines of certain groups have less opportunities starting from age 1. If you didn't go to a good high school, you don't get a good education- even if you are intelligent, your education sucked and your scores suffered. Same thing happens again when you end up in a crappy college. . . . and the UPM's will stay that way. And that's not cool- it's anti American (you can be whatever you want to be).

analogy, think about a "white kid" who grows up in rural Corntown H.S. with high school teachers who barely have Bachelor's degree's, vs. a "white kid #2" who was afforded private school with great educators. Even if they had identical IQ's at age 3, it's not likely their SAT's would be the same is it?

My opinion, AA is like communism. If it worked, it would be the coolest thing on the planet. It has amazing intentions and great theory. A lot of us, unfortunately, end up being considered casualties of the program and that sucks. But you know what, some things suck, and if we have to work harder than the next guy to get in, then at least we knew it in the first place. If we can make intelligent, non-bigetted (did i spell that right?) arguments to law-makers, then maybe it can be reformed, etc.

Here's to brave people trying to fix an impossible issue.
-Vandyfox

 

[vhawk]

non-bigetted (did i spell that right?)
-Vandyfox

No

 

[medic170]

Geez, people these days

With that being said, it's really useless to discuss about AA here. People aren't willing to understand each other, so let it rest, ok ?

Amen to that!!!! Drop this AA debate once and for all

 

[kinetic]

My opinion, AA is like communism. If it worked, it would be the coolest thing on the planet. It has amazing intentions and great theory.

These sentences are so wrong on so many levels that it's mind-boggling.

 

[vhawk]

The only great thing about communism is that is DOESNT work....


Yay, lets turn this into an Anti-Commie thread, so at least it doesnt get piled onto the GIGANTIC pile of AA threads....

 

[medic170]

Actually, it would probably be more appropriate to give them D.O's since they would only be honorary Doctors.

You are the worst God Damn Troll ever to troll the SDN boards. Are you mentally handicapped, or are you just full of MEG@CRAP! I seldom allow myself to get pissed off at dumb ass anonymous idiots like you, but I am just sick of your punk a$$, so please, just ****in go away you wackmaster. I take comfort in the fact that *****s like you almost always get weeded out in the admissions process. You are too immature to ever be a good doctor or hold any important functional position in society. A$$wipe

 

[Thearchitect]

Amen to that!!!! Drop this AA debate once and for all

Yes, no one should ever dare to take issue with infringements upon their constitutional rights. Move along, people, move along.

 

[medic170]

Yes, no one should ever dare to take issue with infringements upon their constitutional rights. Move along, people, move along.

That is fine. For those of you that really care about your belief, go do something about it. Stage a protest, write your congressman, form a group, start a petition, send a complaint to the liberal 9th District Court, whatever. However, this has been debated on SDN on a daily basis, and nobody has ever convinced one person who held an opposing view to change, and nobody ever will. Posting this debate over and over on SDN in, dare I say, a useless.

 

[MEG@COOL]

You are the worst God Damn Troll ever to troll the SDN boards. Are you mentally handicapped, or are you just full of MEG@CRAP! I seldom allow myself to get pissed off at dumb ass anonymous idiots like you, but I am just sick of your punk a$$, so please, just ****in go away you wackmaster. I take comfort in the fact that *****s like you almost always get weeded out in the admissions process. You are too immature to ever be a good doctor or hold any important functional position in society. A$$wipe

Ok loser. Obviously you have some self esteem problems. How about you talk to a psychiatrist instead of verbally assaulting random people on SDN message boards.

 

[medic170]

Ok loser. Obviously you have some self esteem problems. How about you talk to a psychiatrist instead of verbally assaulting random people on SDN message boards.

You're right. I must have self esteem problems because I am so jealous of an anonymous troll who lies about his past, his family, his credantials, and his scores, but I am the one with self esteem problems. I will go see a psychiatrist right away. I am actuallt sincerely sorry for the verbal assault, you just pi$$ed me off and I admit it was ignorant of me to stoop to that level and let a troll bug me, so I am sorry.

 

[MEG@COOL]

You're right. I must have self esteem problems because I am so jealous of an anonymous troll who lies about his past, his family, his credantials, and his scores, but I am the one with self esteem problems. I will go see a psychiatrist right away. I am actuallt sincerely sorry for the verbal assault, you just pi$$ed me off and I admit it was ignorant of me to stoop to that level and let a troll bug me, so I am sorry.

Where the hell do you get off accusing me of lying? First you claim that I am anonymous, and then 1 second later you claim to know everything about me and accuse me of misrepresenting myself.

 

[jao86]

How many medical schools would really accept a person that couldn?t complete the course work and pass USMLE steps!? Come on?. this is all just a big friggen metal masturbation party people. Everyone in MED school is there because the adcoms saw something in them; maybe it?s beyond the numbers. What is the pass percentage for URM?s in med school?could it be about the same as for whites!?

I agree and I think that the pass percentage is probably the same. Med schools see the drive and determination in people and that's why they choose them. There aren't many people who SURVIVE med school who aren't capable doctors.

 

[medic170]

Where the hell do you get off accusing me of lying? First you claim that I am anonymous, and then 1 second later you claim to know everything about me and accuse me of misrepresenting myself.

OH, so your dad is really a pro hockey player AND a surgeon. You are really going to ace your SAT, skip college and the MCAT and go right to med school? Those are just a few of your idiotic troll rants. If these things are true, than I guess I am the idiot and I am sorry for doubting you your highness.

 

[MEG@COOL]

OH, so your dad is really a pro hockey player AND a surgeon. You are really going to ace your SAT, skip college and the MCAT and go right to med school? Those are just a few of your idiotic troll rants. If these things are true, than I guess I am the idiot and I am sorry for doubting you your highness.

Well I guess you are an idiot then.

 

[Shades McCool]

Diversity....isn't that an old wooden ship they used back in Civil War times?

 

[velo]

oh dear god make it stop....did we really need a SECOND AA thread?!!? At least the first one was somewhat civil, this one's just caustic and mean-spirited. Plus I'm burnt out on discussing this, can we call an AA thread truce for a few weeks and then jump back into it?

Oh and to the inevitable "if you don't want to hear about it you don't have to read the thread" response....sadly enough, I do have to read the thread....its a diseased I'm suffering from at the moment called chronic boredom.

 

[Aucdoctobe]

Since this thread has been proven useless, I thought I would provide us with a real issue worth debate.

What's up with sucky digital cable? Where are all the movies? It's just reruns!

 

[kae51202]

Just to help clarify a few things (then I'll give my opinion)

As mentioned, AA is intended to eventually help level the playing field. The argument isn't that one race is "dumber" than another so they need help. It's more along the lines of certain groups have less opportunities starting from age 1. If you didn't go to a good high school, you don't get a good education- even if you are intelligent, your education sucked and your scores suffered. Same thing happens again when you end up in a crappy college. . . . and the UPM's will stay that way. And that's not cool- it's anti American (you can be whatever you want to be).

This is an important point that you brought up that is almost always overlooked. I used to teach grammar school science classes for a private organization x2 years. I would sometimes get frustrated because out of my classes of 20 there were usually 0-1 minority children and the rest white and asian. Furthermore, the classes were always contracted for after school programs in well do schools and on the weekends in well to do communties. The schools with large amounts of minority students couldn't afford to offer this program and their parents surely couldn't pay for it. What is the result: non minority children who have continuous exposure to science and medicine (parents are doctors) and minority children having to stick with the same old poor, run down education systems. In MY personal opinion this is one explanation why whites and other ORM tend to do better on the MCAT and such exams because they have had more exposure whether they realize/accept this or not. The minority kids are not inferior or incapable in any way, this is where AA comes in to even the playing field

 

[JohnHolmes]

1Viking wrote on the other AA thread
I am not proud of my citizenship when I think
about our involvement in slavery. I think we need to help all we can--even if
I get screwed (I didn't get accepted to my state school, even though
minorities with half my credentials got in).
1Viking, I think most of us know that the only thing the US did with the slavery business is "they abolished it". So you should be proud of your citizenship!

Back to the AA issue. It may be OK to give some preferred treatments to the
american slaves' descendents as retribution, but it is absurd to hand
the same favor to first and second generations of immigrants from
africa and mexico since they or their parents came here by choice.

I am not going to address to the AA issue here, but I want to address the bolded statement above.

How can you NOT be proud to be an American? You are living in the finest, most free country in the world and you are upset by your citizenship?

Those comments are not cool.

 

[Blake]

I am not going to address to the AA issue here, but I want to address the bolded statement above.

How can you NOT be proud to be an American? You are living in the finest, most free country in the world and you are upset by your citizenship?

Those comments are not cool.

Don't feel like starting a war here, but could you elaborate a bit more on '' finest and most free country in the world '' ? Let's compare with Canada, for example

 

[DrThom]

Don't feel like starting a war here, but could you elaborate a bit more on '' finest and most free country in the world '' ? Let's compare with Canada, for example

Canada isn't a REAL country...everyone knows that...its France Jr.

 

[Blake]

Canada isn't a REAL country...everyone knows that...its France Jr.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure I get your point. Yea, the army is in bad shape, but you know, there's not only '' war and defense '' out there.

 

[JohnHolmes]

Don't feel like starting a war here, but could you elaborate a bit more on '' finest and most free country in the world '' ? Let's compare with Canada, for example

Do you want me to compare the US to CANADA or directly to Quebec?

 

[Blake]

Do you want me to compare the US to CANADA or directly to Quebec?

US to Canada, then you can go on with Quebec

 

[adamj61]

If there was oil in canada...we would be invading and adding states like you wouldn't believe.

 

[adamj61]

Diversity....isn't that an old wooden ship they used back in Civil War times?

Yes, and San Diego is german for whale vagina

 

[JohnHolmes]

If there was oil in canada...we would be invading and adding states like you wouldn't believe.

Leftist rhetoric

To answer the Canada question posted earlier: The US has been the beacon for freedom for two hundred years, been the basis for state and constitution building and subsidizes YOUR national health system, which cannot even sustain its own growth.

In fact, according to WHO, Canada comes in 30th in global health indicators while the US comes in at 38th. Not bad considering all the bad press the US health system gets.

The US does more to secure civil liberties and is far more multicultural than Canada. Generally, I think the US is far more accomodating.

That being said, the US has its drawbacks, and quite a few. Overall, I wouldn't trade a day here for anything.

Canada is a FANTASTIC country, I love it. I don't mean to disrespect the great nation to the North. Our little brother

 

[adamj61]

Oh give me a ****ing break...I am not leftist, or really that partisan. I am conservative when it comes to econ...do you really think we wouldn't get Canada's oil if they had it?

 

[JohnHolmes]

Yes, the only reason we invaded Iraq was for the oil we turned over to the Iraqis. The Bush administration really BOTCHED that one (turning the oil over back to the owners)....

 

[Fermata]

Yes, the only reason we invaded Iraq was for the oil we turned over to the Iraqis. The Bush administration really BOTCHED that one (turning the oil over back to the owners)....

I'm damn proud to have you as a future North Carolinian.

 

[adamj61]

Yes, and all of the oil related companies in texas, and haliburton didn't gain anything from giving it back. A lot of money is being made over there, or do you disagree with the facts?

I don't blame them for wanting to make money, I would just like to see it come back in the form of a loan for school.

 

[adamj61]

I doubt that many people at Duke think like that.

 

[Fermata]

I doubt that many people at Duke think like that.

Duke students are not an accurate represenation of what the general public thinks.

 

[jtorres]

go on the web sites for all the texas schools and they will all tell you about the forthcoming changes for admisssion in 2006. ethnicity, background, socioeconomic status, etc. will all factor in the admissions process. if you are pi$$ed now and feel robbed just wait to see how you feel next year. i fully intend on getting in this year, without the help of AA, but then again their is always next year for me huh? i will be starting med school in the near future regardless of some of you peoples incessant rants and put-downs of URMs. the rest of you can remain here and dwell on your ignorant views. i know that some of you are about to fly off the handle with next comment that im gonna make but its the truth: white people are good at correcting their mistakes and giving people an opportunity but they are also quick to forget history or quick to turn their cheek to it.

 

[Fermata]

go on the web sites for all the texas schools and they will all tell you about the forthcoming changes for admisssion in 2006. ethnicity, background, socioeconomic status, etc. will all factor in the admissions process. if you are pi$$ed now and feel robbed just wait to see how you feel next year. i fully intend on getting in this year, without the help of AA, but then again their is always next year for me huh? i will be starting med school in the near future regardless of some of you peoples incessant rants and put-downs of URMs. the rest of you can remain here and dwell on your ignorant views. i know that some of you are about to fly off the handle with next comment that im gonna make but its the truth: white people are good at correcting their mistakes and giving people an opportunity but they are also quick to forget history or quick to turn their cheek to it.

You are right.....

Geez....as if I've never heard this before.

White man....scourge of the Earth.

All societies have been oppressed. Please.....spare us.