More on Affirmative Action

[adamj61]

eh, but educated people tend to be socially liberal....and young people also follow that trend.

Maybe I can hijack this into a Big Ten/ACC bball debate....I think that if Harris stayed for his last year, we would have been ranked top 3 for sure, maybe a run at the title. I would love to see a UW/Duke acc/big ten challenge this year

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[OrthoFixation]

eh, but educated people tend to be socially liberal....and young people also follow that trend.

Academics tend to be socially liberal. I would guess that education is more equated with conservatism, past the age of 25 or 30. Youth certainly has a liberal bias. I am not sure why. Maybe it has to do with all the liberal academics. Most people that work for a living become more conservative (relatively) than in their youth. That is, unless they are on the receiving end of benefits. It has to do with taking money away from one group to give to another group.

How many times have I heard the statement from a new earner "Who the hell is FICA and why are they taking a large chunk of my paycheck?"

 

[adamj61]

Right on

 

[JohnHolmes]

Yes, and all of the oil related companies in texas, and haliburton didn't gain anything from giving it back. A lot of money is being made over there, or do you disagree with the facts?

I don't blame them for wanting to make money, I would just like to see it come back in the form of a loan for school.

Making money on the American taxpayer's dollar. So ... we are stealing the wealth of Iraq? Eh?

With the Duke comment. Are you trying to say that all students at Duke believe America invaded Iraq for oil alone or somehow seeing the world through the lens of someone other than Michael Moore is a disgrace on Duke as an institution?

 

[Fermata]

Academics tend to be socially liberal. I would guess that education is more equated with conservatism, past the age of 25 or 30. Youth certainly has a liberal bias. I am not sure why. Maybe it has to do with all the liberal academics. Most people that work for a living become more conservative (relatively) than in their youth. That is, unless they are on the receiving end of benefits. It has to do with taking money away from one group to give to another group.

How many times have I heard the statement from a new earner "Who the hell is FICA and why are they taking a large chunk of my paycheck?"

Academics is indeed the last bastion of liberals. However, the general population is much more moderate - neither very liberal nor very conservative.

 

[JohnHolmes]

Academics is indeed the last bastion of liberals. However, the general population is much more moderate - neither very liberal nor very conservative.

I'm voting straight GOP too.

Registering to vote and switching my residency to NC. My vote doesn't matter much in the Old Dominion, since the GOP will hold the state no matter what.

The only contest I am unsure about is president. I will probably vote for Kerry, as tort reform will probably not be decided at the federal, but state level.

JH

 

[M.D. 2000]

The facts are that the average AA accepted to an allopathic medical school had a cumulative GPA of 3.38 in 2003 . The facts are that only 1050 out of 2700 plus AA applicants were accepted last year. A B+ GPA is solid. Many caucasion americans are accepted to medical school each year with GPAs lower than 3.38.
In fact a friend of mine who is caucasion was accepted to the University of Pennsylvania with a GPA of 3.1. This thread is silly. In fact, think about the other caucasions who were accepted with a lower GPA than yours. How do you explain that? Stop complaining and reapply! Increase your chances by getting a masters degree in science and maintaing a 4.0 or increasing you MCAT. Take some postbach classes or do anything but sit at your computer and wine on SDN.

Good luck with your applications

 

[superunknown]

What no one has addressed on this thread is that the real issue is not race but socio-economic status.

Imagine a wealthy student given all the advantage provided his family's socio-economic status - physician family friends, oppurtunities to get the best education money could buy, involvement in plenty of extra-curriculars. Consider also a poor student. As said in previous posts, the same advantages just aren't there for that student.

Now ask yourself this: Are there poor black students? rich black students? poor white students?....

Money is the deciding factor. Race only appears to be the cause because more minorities are below the poverty line than whites.

In my book, a socio-economically disadvantaged person should get a helping hand, but a URM thats loaded should get no special treatment.

 

[rtmcad2319]

This is an important point that you brought up that is almost always overlooked. I used to teach grammar school science classes for a private organization x2 years. I would sometimes get frustrated because out of my classes of 20 there were usually 0-1 minority children and the rest white and asian. Furthermore, the classes were always contracted for after school programs in well do schools and on the weekends in well to do communties. The schools with large amounts of minority students couldn't afford to offer this program and their parents surely couldn't pay for it. What is the result: non minority children who have continuous exposure to science and medicine (parents are doctors) and minority children having to stick with the same old poor, run down education systems. In MY personal opinion this is one explanation why whites and other ORM tend to do better on the MCAT and such exams because they have had more exposure whether they realize/accept this or not. The minority kids are not inferior or incapable in any way, this is where AA comes in to even the playing field

ORM=does not exist!!
you are either a URM or the majority!

 

[jedirampage]

ORM=does not exist!!
you are either a URM or the majority!

Asian/Indian = ORM in medicine

They are NOT in the majority in the general population and are therefore MINORITIES.

 

[tofurious]

In fact a friend of mine who is caucasion was accepted to the University of Pennsylvania with a GPA of 3.1. This thread is silly. In fact, think about the other caucasions who were accepted with a lower GPA

It's called a bell curve. Since there are more Caucasians than the URMs, it is much more likely (simple probability - do your math if you remember how) to run across a Caucasian with a lower GPA but great application otherwise IN A POOL OF Caucasians with much higher AVERAGE GPA than 3.3 (which is what statistics have shown for many years). If 5% of the Caucasians accepted to med school had GPA below the median URM GPA, how can you possibly argue that people who get in through AA have the same caliber as the rest of the group (with the exception that 50% of the AA students are only as good as the bottom 5 percentile of Caucasians and Asians/other ORMs?)

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Some whites are accepted with lower GPA/MCAT than the average black applicant. Therefore, blacks do not get an advantage because of their race in med school admissions.

What a strange arugment and conclusion.

 

[Amicus]

Some whites are accepted with lower GPA/MCAT than the average black applicant. Therefore, blacks do not get an advantage because of their race in med school admissions.

What a strange arugment and conclusion.

the most frustrating thing about all this is that the pro aa people seem to not be able to reason straight. I have never seen such poor, hole filled logic. No so much about the rightness and wrongness of AA, which is of course opinion. But in the questions of proportions or this and that, who scores how ect.

 

[tofurious]

the most frustrating thing about all this is that the pro aa people seem to not be able to reason straight

Outcome of 40 years of AA: forced quota, small improvement in actual quality, and percentage-wise, many more underqualified people speaking up with undeserving credentials than the forward thinking, true intellectuals of URM background.

 

[W222]

Can you speak in complete sentences, these fragments are killing me.

 

[medic170]

There are some issues that will NEVER be agreed upon, and while healthy debate is a good thing, I can't help but feel sick and tired of hearing people battle eachother, with both sides often using faulty logic. It is very frustrating to present a valid argument with logical principles and scientific method, and have the opposition refuse to accept it or use the "just because I feel that way" cop out. these issies include abortion, AA, and religion's place or limits in government.

 

[hunterpostbac]

hey what about those of us who are WHITE and can't afford the MCAT prep courses?!? just because i am of northern european descent doesn't mean i've been raised with a plethora of opportunities. i grew up in a trailer park, attend a public institution, and am already in plenty of debt from education loans. it's just not fair that someone who scores lower than me might get into a school more easily than me because they're a URM.

 

[DrThom]

hey what about those of us who are WHITE and can't afford the MCAT prep courses?!? just because i am of northern european descent doesn't mean i've been raised with a plethora of opportunities. i grew up in a trailer park, attend a public institution, and am already in plenty of debt from education loans. it's just not fair that someone who scores lower than me might get into a school more easily than me because they're a URM.

Us Poor White Males have the hardest battle to get to medical school...not only do we have to foot the bill for the process but we don't get bonus points for being a URM

 

[tofurious]

If you remember the U Michigan point system (which every school has a similar version of), you get the same amount of points whether you were born into a particular race or you had to overcome extreme poverty/physical handicap. If you ignore the exact race this practice beneifts, it almost sounds like what the original intention of Affirmation Action was fighting against.

 

[medic170]

Us Poor White Males have the hardest battle to get to medical school...not only do we have to foot the bill for the process but we don't get bonus points for being a URM

While I am a poor White male who paid my own way, and I think that socioeconomic status of the majority(whites) should be a part of AA, I don't think I can go so far as to say I have it the HARDEST, just because I honestly do not know what it is like for a minority, especially a poor minority, sonce I am not one. They may face other challenges that we simply can't fathom as whites.

 

[medic170]

If you remember the U Michigan point system (which every school has a similar version of), you get the same amount of points whether you were born into a particular race or you had to overcome extreme poverty/physical handicap. If you ignore the exact race this practice beneifts, it almost sounds like what the original intention of Affirmation Action was fighting against.

Just wanted to correct you. You said EVERY school has a version of the point system. This is simply not true. Michigan State, for one, does not use affitrmative action in admissions for undergrad, grad, or even med school admissions. Diversity is considered, but this is no point system of any kind and no AA policy.

 

[Quynh2007]

Just wanted to correct you. You said EVERY school has a version of the point system. This is simply not true. Michigan State, for one, does not use affitrmative action in admissions for undergrad, grad, or even med school admissions. Diversity is considered, but this is no point system of any kind and no AA policy.

so legacies don't get any extra points?? i find that hard to believe.