More Respected: Foreign Medical School or Osteopathic (DO) School in USA?

[ladylolita]

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Hi,
Any thoughts on the pros & cons of attended a foreign medical school (ECFMG accredited) vs. an Osteopathic school in the USA?

Which one (if either) is seen as offering a better education?
How would it effect residency choices? Would either negatively effect chances of getting into competitive residencies?
Which one is better respected?
In your opinion, which is the best choice?
Anything else?

Thanks so much for your input!

 

[Scottish Chap]

Hi,
Any thoughts on the pros & cons of attended a foreign medical school (ECFMG accredited) vs. an Osteopathic school in the USA?

Which one (if either) is seen as offering a better education?
How would it effect residency choices? Would either negatively effect chances of getting into competitive residencies?
Which one is better respected?
In your opinion, which is the best choice?
Anything else?

Thanks so much for your input!

For general U.S. programs, D.O. It's an American degree and they know how you have been trained. For elite programs, you will find 1-2 FMGs per year but almost never a D.O. It's not right, but it's reality (same thing for public perception....M.D. is more recognized and raises less questions). Stupid perceptions, I know, but they are out there. There is no difference in standard or quality of education in either program (I'm an M.D. and have worked with plenty of D.O.s). BTW, it's very hard to read any letters written in yellow.

 

[notbobtrustme]

from the average joe, the MD looks better than the DO. From people who will actually hire/match you, the DO is almost always a better choice.

 

[Courtjester8]

American DO. No question.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

For general U.S. programs, D.O. It's an American degree and they know how you have been trained. For elite programs, you will find 1-2 FMGs per year but almost never a D.O. It's not right, but it's reality (same thing for public perception....M.D. is more recognized and raises less questions). Stupid perceptions, I know, but they are out there. There is no difference in standard or quality of education in either program (I'm an M.D. and have worked with plenty of D.O.s). BTW, it's very hard to read any letters written in yellow.

This is misleading for many reasons. FMG's apply to upwards of 100 programs, DO's may seek to apply only to their own AOA residencies for competitive specialties as it occurs earlier and avoid the ACGME match. You undoubtably have a higher chance of getting into a top tier residency as a DO than you do as a Carib MD. Don't assume that a PD doesn't know the difference between someone who graduated from SGU and someone who graduated from PCOM. Because they do and they without a doubt favor the latter than they do some FMG that will undoubtably be locked out of all residencies by 2018-2020 when the residency crunch starts to happen.

But yes, TL;DR, a US DO is more prestigious to PD's, group practices, and offers you a 100% chance of matching into a residency and an equal chance of matching into an AOA residency which makes you chances for even competitive surgical subspecialties the same as a US MD.

 

[Scottish Chap]

This is misleading for many reasons. FMG's apply to upwards of 100 programs, DO's may seek to apply only to their own AOA residencies for competitive specialties as it occurs earlier and avoid the ACGME match. You undoubtably have a higher chance of getting into a top tier residency as a DO than you do as a Carib MD. Don't assume that a PD doesn't know the difference between someone who graduated from SGU and someone who graduated from PCOM. Because they do and they without a doubt favor the latter than they do some FMG that will undoubtably be locked out of all residencies by 2018-2020 when the residency crunch starts to happen.

But yes, TL;DR, a US DO is more prestigious to PD's, group practices, and offers you a 100% chance of matching into a residency and an equal chance of matching into an AOA residency which makes you chances for even competitive surgical subspecialties the same as a US MD.

The original poster was not stressing FMG means "Caribbean M.D." There are many prestigious medical schools overseas in which graduates seek a U.S. residency position. Different situation entirely.

 

[LifeTake2]

The original poster was not stressing FMG means "Caribbean M.D." There are many prestigious medical schools overseas in which graduates seek a U.S. residency position. Different situation entirely.

Yes, BUT in 5 years FMG will still struggle to get into residencies.

DO's will always have first crack at US residencies over even the best FMG's.

Right or wrong, being trained in the US does give you a step up.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The original poster was not stressing FMG means "Caribbean M.D." There are many prestigious medical schools overseas in which graduates seek a U.S. residency position. Different situation entirely.

Chances are if your attending a FM and a US citizen, then it's going to be a crappy medical school. Sorry.
Either way, being an FMG is far worse. A DO will always have a good chance to match, an FMG not really.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Chances are if your attending a FM and a US citizen, then it's going to be a crappy medical school. Sorry.
Either way, being an FMG is far worse. A DO will always have a good chance to match, an FMG not really.

That's a big assumption. Case in point (n=2): The program where I did my residency has never taken a D.O. (unsure if any have even applied), but they would accept 1-2 FMG/IMGs every year (an Irish guy with a degree from an Irish medical school and an American with a degree from Oxford's medical school were the last two I recall). Some places just don't look at D.O.s a whole lot. It doesn't make sense, but it's reality. My feeling is that it has less to do with "prestige" and more to do with familiarity.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes, but I can tell you that many DO's aren't applying simply by virtue of the fact that the AOA match happens earlier. I don't know what residency you went to, but there are DO's in top tier residencies including in 2009 a Rad onc? At Mayo and plenty of Psych and Pm&R in the ivory tower. The limiting factor is that many simply dont apply to many top tier schools be cause of fear of wasting time and money.

Either way, very few, less than 1% of FMGs are coming from schools like Oxford, Van in Germany, etc. point being is no matter what is going to be better for you and will be better for top tier residencies. If you have further questions there is a stat sheet on preosteo, "MD V.S DO vs Carib".

 

[Scottish Chap]

Yes, but I can tell you that many DO's aren't applying simply by virtue of the fact that the AOA match happens earlier. I don't know what residency you went to, but there are DO's in top tier residencies including in 2009 a Rad onc? At Mayo and plenty of Psych and Pm&R in the ivory tower. The limiting factor is that many simply dont apply to many top tier schools be cause of fear of wasting time and money.

Either way, very few, less than 1% of FMGs are coming from schools like Oxford, Van in Germany, etc. point being is no matter what is going to be better for you and will be better for top tier residencies. If you have further questions there is a stat sheet on preosteo, "MD V.S DO vs Carib".

Ivory towers? Top tier residencies? Further questions? Good grief.....

Have a good evening, and good luck to you.

 

[Shalashaska]

Lol at pre-meds trying to argue with a physician who said nothing wrong/misleading at all.

 

[smiley27]

Personally I would rather go to the carib for md than go do. You gotta live with the initials you get for the rest of your life and no one outside of medicine knows what a do is. How many people, when you say you're going to med school come back with- "oh going for the md huh?"

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Personally I would rather go to the carib for md than go do. You gotta live with the initials you get for the rest of your life and no one outside of medicine knows what a do is. How many people, when you say you're going to med school come back with- "oh going for the md huh?"

Good luck with that

You know... being a waiter with an MD.

 

[smiley27]

Good luck with that

You know... being a waiter with an MD.

Riiiiiiight......🙄

 

[hallowmann]

Lol at pre-meds trying to argue with a physician who said nothing wrong/misleading at all.

Seriously...

Also, I'm a bit curious about the apocalyptic 2016 (or according to serenade, 2018-2020) IMG/FMG match. Things will most probably get harder for IMG/FMGs, but the idea that there will be no residencies for them is ridiculous. Their match rates have been stable at 45-50% for decades, so even with a sudden increase in MDs and DOs, I doubt they will suddenly disappear.

Plus, all of these predictions are based on the idea that residencies will grow at their current rates. Its certainly possible that legislation and funding may occur (as it has in the past) to regulate residency spot growths to keep up with the new increase in US graduates. Sure, its not guaranteed right now, but its probably just a matter of time.

That being said, its VERY difficult even now to get a non-FP or IM residency as a US-IMG. If your plan is to stay in North America, a DO is much better for you. You have the option of AOA and ACGME residencies, and the likelihood of not matching in one of them is much less than that for US-IMGs. If you plan on possibly living outside of North America, be sure that the countries you would live in are on the approved practice list for a US DO degree. There are a number of countries that do not recognize the D.O. degree, and others that only allow OMM practices.

Good luck with that

You know... being a waiter with an MD.

This is a little ridiculous don't you think? The majority of foreign MDs that are waiters have either been out of med school for 10+ years (working as a doc in other countries, or otherwise), need sponsorship to work, or have not been able to pass the Steps on their first try. Sure its harder, but if people are in it for primary care and do really well on the Steps, they can match.

As far as doing it for the initials goes, that doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe that's because I'm in an area that has a lot of DOs. There are some parts of this country that have barely any DOs. Some people still aren't familiar with the degree. Practically, this is meaningless, because the work is the same and the pay is the same, but unfortunately it still matters to some people.

Like I said, the only real reason I see it being worth it to go to a foreign medical school as opposed to a DO school is if you plan at some point in your life on practicing in a country that doesn't recognize the DO degree.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Seriously...

Also, I'm a bit curious about the apocalyptic 2016 (or according to serenade, 2018-2020) IMG/FMG match. Things will most probably get harder for IMG/FMGs, but the idea that there will be no residencies for them is ridiculous. Their match rates have been stable at 45-50% for decades, so even with a sudden increase in MDs and DOs, I doubt they will suddenly disappear.

increases in residencies costs money, money that medicare does not possess. FMG's are getting the short end of the stick. Furthermore a lot of FMG's previously matched through pre-matching, this no longer exists. The rate will be getting exponentially lower.

Plus, all of these predictions are based on the idea that residencies will grow at their current rates. Its certainly possible that legislation and funding may occur (as it has in the past) to regulate residency spot growths to keep up with the new increase in US graduates. Sure, its not guaranteed right now, but its probably just a matter of time.

It's not likely that we will be seeing significantly more residencies any time soon.

That being said, its VERY difficult even now to get a non-FP or IM residency as a US-IMG. If your plan is to stay in North America, a DO is much better for you. You have the option of AOA and ACGME residencies, and the likelihood of not matching in one of them is much less than that for US-IMGs. If you plan on possibly living outside of North America, be sure that the countries you would live in are on the approved practice list for a US DO degree. There are a number of countries that do not recognize the D.O. degree, and others that only allow OMM practices.

Most of these countries also do not accept the American MD.



This is a little ridiculous don't you think? The majority of foreign MDs that are waiters have either been out of med school for 10+ years (working as a doc in other countries, or otherwise), need sponsorship to work, or have not been able to pass the Steps on their first try. Sure its harder, but if people are in it for primary care and do really well on the Steps, they can match.

Look, if you want to gamble 200k, live on a crap island for 4 years to have an MD then you're free to do that. However you're making a mistake and going DO is significantly better for getting into residencies and practicing. The initials are not worth much tbh, as every PD in the country will know you're substandard and most of your patients probably don't even realize that an MD isn't a PhD or etc.

As far as doing it for the initials goes, that doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe that's because I'm in an area that has a lot of DOs. There are some parts of this country that have barely any DOs. Some people still aren't familiar with the degree. Practically, this is meaningless, because the work is the same and the pay is the same, but unfortunately it still matters to some people.

Initials are not important to anyone.

Like I said, the only real reason I see it being worth it to go to a foreign medical school as opposed to a DO school is if you plan at some point in your life on practicing in a country that doesn't recognize the DO degree.

And you think that the Carib MD is accepted in more countries? It's actually accepted in less.

There is no benefit to going to a Carib MD school and in the coming years you'll be better off investing 200k into lottos.

 

[smiley27]

Someone here is trying really hard to argue do over carib. Huh?

When it's all said and done and you get your first long white coat will you regret that it has DO after your name on your chest for all your patients to see? I would regret it. Will you? If not then by all means become a DO and deal with the stigma that comes with degree.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Someone here is trying really hard to argue do over carib. Huh?

When it's all said and done and you get your first long white coat will you regret that it has DO after your name on your chest for all your patients to see? I would regret it. Will you? If not then by all means become a DO and deal with the stigma that comes with degree.

Provided that you're part of the >40% of Carib students who make it back to the mainland with a residency. Furthermore, provided that you're happy going to the crappiest IM residency in the country while a DO can attend significantly higher quality residencies and in specialties you simply cannot? Regardless it's your money and your life. However please do not perpetuate the myth that a US trained physician is going to experience more stigma than a Foreign medical graduate who will have his degree basically spat upon by PI's, patients, etc. for being from the Caribbean. This also to mention that most physicians in my state don't wear coats, they wear dress shirts and color coded scrubs that signify that they are a physician.

Anyway, I'm preallo, if I get into a US MD school this won't be an issue. However if I do not I'll attend a US DO school as I know it significantly better than being a FMG for getting into most of the specialties I'm interested in.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Depends... a lot of us who or older and here our aim to to learn medicine and be a caring doctor helpings out the medically under served folks (idealist, I know). Given this, it matters little whether you have an MD or DO after your name (personally, could care less as long as I'm a great doctor with good physician skills).

But, Scottish Chap is right that there is a stigma in some places. I see it in pharma every day. If you want to work in pharma (and never practice), then by all means get an MD (from ANYWHERE; yes, absolutely anywhere) over a DO. It's stupid, but the stigma exists.

If, like me, you want to be the best doctor you can be, look beyond MD and DO at the quality of education you will receive. Not all MD programs are created equal and not all DO programs are created equal and not all Caribbean programs are created equal. Having seen a lot of DOs from PCOM at Beth Israel, Brigham, Stanford, I know PCOM provides a quality education (and likely better than it's Caribbean counterparts). I know some schools are newer and not established so you are risking it somewhat (Rocky Vista). I wish people would beyond the DO/MD/Caribbean argument to questions like is PCOM better than SGU or is AUC better than University of Queensland or is Rocky Vista better than Saba. Those would be more fruitful discussions.

When it's all said and done and you get your first long white coat will you regret that it has DO after your name on your chest for all your patients to see? I would regret it. Will you? If not then by all means become a DO and deal with the stigma that comes with degree.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Depends... a lot of us who or older and here our aim to to learn medicine and be a caring doctor helpings out the medically under served folks (idealist, I know). Given this, it matters little whether you have an MD or DO after your name (personally, could care less as long as I'm a great doctor with good physician skills).

But, Scottish Chap is right that there is a stigma in some places. I see it in pharma every day. If you want to work in pharma (and never practice), then by all means get an MD (from ANYWHERE; yes, absolutely anywhere) over a DO. It's stupid, but the stigma exists.

If, like me, you want to be the best doctor you can be, look beyond MD and DO at the quality of education you will receive. Not all MD programs are created equal and not all DO programs are created equal and not all Caribbean programs are created equal. Having seen a lot of DOs from PCOM at Beth Israel, Brigham, Stanford, I know PCOM provides a quality education (and likely better than it's Caribbean counterparts). I know some schools are newer and not established so you are risking it somewhat (Rocky Vista). I wish people would beyond the DO/MD/Caribbean argument to questions like is PCOM better than SGU or is AUC better than University of Queensland or is Rocky Vista better than Saba. Those would be more fruitful discussions.

Noting that PCOM usually has an average match list compared to most DO schools like DMU, AZCOM, CCOM, and Western.

 

[smiley27]

Depends... a lot of us who or older and here our aim to to learn medicine and be a caring doctor helpings out the medically under served folks (idealist, I know). Given this, it matters little whether you have an MD or DO after your name (personally, could care less as long as I'm a great doctor with good physician skills).

But, Scottish Chap is right that there is a stigma in some places. I see it in pharma every day. If you want to work in pharma (and never practice), then by all means get an MD (from ANYWHERE; yes, absolutely anywhere) over a DO. It's stupid, but the stigma exists.

If, like me, you want to be the best doctor you can be, look beyond MD and DO at the quality of education you will receive. Not all MD programs are created equal and not all DO programs are created equal and not all Caribbean programs are created equal. Having seen a lot of DOs from PCOM at Beth Israel, Brigham, Stanford, I know PCOM provides a quality education (and likely better than it's Caribbean counterparts). I know some schools are newer and not established so you are risking it somewhat (Rocky Vista). I wish people would beyond the DO/MD/Caribbean argument to questions like is PCOM better than SGU or is AUC better than University of Queensland or is Rocky Vista better than Saba. Those would be more fruitful discussions.

Are you referring to bidmc? I work there and don't see DOs walking around. Not surprised as bidmc is in harvard/tufts/bu area. I would imagine DOs having difficulty getting highly-sought after jobs in the longwood area. Not saying it doesn't happen but you know....

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Are you referring to bidmc? I work there and don't see DOs walking around. Not surprised as bidmc is in harvard/tufts/bu area. I would imagine DOs having difficulty getting highly-sought after jobs in the longwood area. Not saying it doesn't happen but you know....

There are plenty of DOs in that area, including DO's teaching in those medical schools. That being said many hospitals give DOs MD tags, so you wouldn't really know if it was a DO or not unless you asked him/her where they went to medical school.

 

[smiley27]

If you will have no regrets of being a DO then by all means go for it.

But this is the nontrad section of SDN where we go to get away from all the nonsense comments like "good luck becoming a waiter with your carib degree." these kind of comments belong in other sections where maturity isn't expected.

 

[smiley27]

There are plenty of DOs in that area, including DO's teaching in those medical schools. That being said many hospitals give DOs MD tags, so you wouldn't really know if it was a DO or not if you actually knew the distinction.

Hospitals that give md tags to do's? Source?

What is your affiliation to bidmc for you to reference it? Have you been in the longwood area during the lunch hour? Then you would know that physicians often walk around in their white coats and like I told you I haven't seen one DO. My supervisor/PI is on the harvard med school faculty, which DO professors are you referring to? Please respond.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If you will have no regrets of being a DO then by all means go for it.

But this is the nontrad section of SDN where we go to get away from all the nonsense comments like "good luck becoming a waiter with your carib degree." these kind of comments belong in other sections where maturity isn't expected.

Except the truth is that getting a Carib degree in many cases will be worthless. Many graduates simply do not match and that is simply a fundamental truth of the game. But if maturity is in question here, then initials are a very immature reason to be gambling 200k.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I used to work at Dana-Farber... there are a quite a few DOs, a quick google search produces dozens (remember that only about 15% of all doctors are DOs (there just happen to be more MD schools) so as long as you are seeing about 15% of all doctors being DOs, you are seeing a match list on par with MDs.

http://www.bidmc.org/News/AroundBIDMC/2011/August/McCann_GynOnc.aspx
http://services.bidmc.org/Find_a_doc/doc_detail.asp?sid=41415445484242
http://bidmc.org/CentersandDepartme...ne/PainMedicine/MeetOurTeam/DarylSWongDO.aspx

I'm getting lazy... there are more than several dozen more... there are far less Caribbean grads. Again, back to my point... it's not DO vs MD vs Caribbean... it's the quality of the education you receive.

Are you referring to bidmc? I work there and don't see DOs walking around. Not surprised as bidmc is in harvard/tufts/bu area. I would imagine DOs having difficulty getting highly-sought after jobs in the longwood area. Not saying it doesn't happen but you know....

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Hospitals that give md tags to do's? Source?

What is your affiliation to bidmc for you to reference it? Have you been in the longwood area during the lunch hour? Then you would know that physicians often walk around in their white coats and like I told you I haven't seen one DO. My supervisor/PI is on the harvard med school faculty, which DO professors are you referring to? Please respond.

Well the first one is hard to source, I'll need to look through Osteo to find a source. But plenty of DO attendings have said this happens frequently. I'll return back to this when I find it. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-872531.html *A DO attending commented here about it happening.

My affiliation is non-existent. However a search on the AOA site shows there are plenty. http://www.osteopathic.org/osteopathic-health/find-a-do/Pages/default.aspx

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=940066 <- This post shows DO's in most of the Ivies, but I'm having trouble finding the DO's at Harvard since the site requires a name which I don't remember. *Scroll down to the post with a lot of links.

 

[smiley27]

I used to work at Dana-Farber... there are a quite a few DOs, a quick google search produces dozens (remember that only about 15% of all doctors are DOs (there just happen to be more MD schools) so as long as you are seeing about 15% of all doctors being DOs, you are seeing a match list on par with MDs.

http://www.bidmc.org/News/AroundBIDMC/2011/August/McCann_GynOnc.aspx
http://services.bidmc.org/Find_a_doc/doc_detail.asp?sid=41415445484242
http://bidmc.org/CentersandDepartme...ne/PainMedicine/MeetOurTeam/DarylSWongDO.aspx

I'm getting lazy... there are more than several dozen more... there are far less Caribbean grads. Again, back to my point... it's not DO vs MD vs Caribbean... it's the quality of the education you receive.

I'm gonna respond to you because you seem like you're here for a rational discussion. Not like the other poster posting about hospitals giving MD tags to DOs then referring to someone's post on sdn.

You say you see "a lot of DOs at BI" well I don't. You would be hard-pressed to find someone that'll say that a PCOM grad can compete for desirable positions against the boston md grads. The people you linked to did allopathic residencies and were most likely the cream of the crop, exceptions. But hey, they're there and that says something. Besides doing a search of the whole database, as someone who works there everyday I have not seen a single DO. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough? Maybe I'm not.

Quality of education? DO schools win hands down. If that's what you're concerned with then go to DO school. But in all honesty I would argue that SGU/Ross has better education than some of the lower DO schools. Have you seen the touro ny harlem building? I have and it's atrocious. There's a reason they don't show you the street view on their website. In all honesty though, I would go to SGU over some of the lower DO schools if I were to decide on education.

 

[smiley27]

Some people don't mind being a DO, some people do. Such is life.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Lol. Touro is hideous, but their match list last year far exceeded the SGU's match of a class of 3x the size.

Regardless, What's wrong with me citing a DO attending from SDN?

Anyway, I feel like I've made my point and showed you why in almost any logical situation a DO school would be better. But that's fine. Proceed to SGU.

 

[AlongWay]

Someone here is trying really hard to argue do over carib. Huh?

When it's all said and done and you get your first long white coat will you regret that it has DO after your name on your chest for all your patients to see? I would regret it. Will you? If not then by all means become a DO and deal with the stigma that comes with degree.

Hey man, honestly I used to be like you. I used to think that DO's were inferior to MD's. Then I grew up and became a little more open-minded to life. There are far worse things in life than having different initials after your name. It would really be a nightmare, working in the same hospital, doing the same exact job, making the same amount of money. It truly does sound like the worst thing that could happen. You sound like my parents. People who are prestige-driven maniacs.

I should be even more cynical about DO's than you. I am South Asian, and in addition to the already existing bias, I have to deal with a cultural bias. 99% of South Asian premeds prefer MD to DO. This is a fact. This is why the Carrib has so many Indian med students because they all covet the MD over DO. However, I have been having the worst year of my life till date, and frankly becoming a doctor and being able to practice medicine, whether as an MD, DO, or CarribMD, would be a god-send to me.

Someone here is trying really hard to argue do over carib. Huh?

When it's all said and done and you get your first long white coat will you regret that it has DO after your name on your chest for all your patients to see? I would regret it. Will you? If not then by all means become a DO and deal with the stigma that comes with degree.

FYI - patients don't care if your an MD or a DO or even an RN. They care that you can treat them and make their sickness go away. If you can do that, who cares about the degree?

You say you see "a lot of DOs at BI" well I don't. You would be hard-pressed to find someone that'll say that a PCOM grad can compete for desirable positions against the boston md grads. The people you linked to did allopathic residencies and were most likely the cream of the crop, exceptions.

Right. I guess those people that he linked too are MD's posing as DO's. And exceptions work both ways. You will see exceptionally brilliant DO's and exceptionally incompetent MD's.

Whatever man. I hope you realize that there is much more to life and medicine than presitge and the degree. That doesn't make you who you are - who you CHOOSE to be, and what you CHOOSE to do makes you a good or bad physician, regardless of your education or your degree.

By using logic and common sense - it would be much more beneficial to attend a good or even an average DO school over the best Carrib med schools because I don't know how you feel, I just don't want to go through med school and not end up matching into a US residency.

I would be absolutely ecstatic if I got into my dream MD schools and would be extremely proud of myself if I got into my top choice DO schools. Anyone who thinks less of me for that, can well, those words aren't civilized enough for this forum.

 

[smiley27]

Lol. Touro is hideous, but their match list last year far exceeded the SGU's match of a class of 3x the size.

Regardless, What's wrong with me citing a DO attending from SDN?

Anyway, I feel like I've made my point and showed you why in almost any logical situation a DO school would be better. But that's fine. Proceed to SGU.

I never once claimed why it's more logical to go to the carib over do. If all I cared about were match lists and education then I would choose DO. However I wouldn't want to deal with the stigma associated with being a DO. And after a lot of literature reading on the topic I've come to the conclusion that yes there is a bias towards DOs.

Besides I'm going to an allo school here in the states but I'm just saying if I had to choose between the two I would go to the caribbean.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I still don't understand where you're missing the point that a FMG MD will have more bias and stigma against them.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

FYI - patients don't care if your an MD or a DO or even an RN. They care that you can treat them and make their sickness go away. If you can do that, who cares about the degree?

I will agree that this is the norm, but there is always the exception, ie, one or two patients here and there who stare at the initials DO, and then demand to be treated by a "real doctor" (ie an MD). Or the people who will never step into your practice because even though your specialty is written outside your door in huge letters, they just don't know what 'DO' is and so are hesitant.

However, I would like to stress again that this is the exception and not the norm. And I would never take a 300K non-dischargeable debt gamble by going to the Caribbean because of this.

I never once claimed why it's more logical to go to the carib over do. If all I cared about were match lists and education then I would choose DO. However I wouldn't want to deal with the stigma associated with being a DO. And after a lot of literature reading on the topic I've come to the conclusion that yes there is a bias towards DOs.

Besides I'm going to an allo school here in the states but I'm just saying if I had to choose between the two I would go to the caribbean.

Stigma comes in all shapes and sizes bro, you're focussing only on one of them. Just as you are going to have patients freaking out about the initials, you will have patients who research where you went to medical school and decide whether or not to be treated by you.

And of course, when it comes to your fellow physicians, there will be the Ivy grad vs mid-tier grad vs lower tier grad vs DO grad vs Carib grad vs other international grad stigma. When networking with other physicians, often more than not, the first question will be "where did you go to medical school?"

 

[mspeedwagon]

I should specify that what I say when I mean a lot, I mean out of every 100 doctors, you'll probably 80 US MD, 15 DOs, and about 5 FMG (the DOs and FMGs tend to be very good, as do the MDs to have matched at these hospitals). That was generally true throughout the Longwood Area (Dana-Farber has a directory of all their doctors, which included their med school, residency and fellowship). It used to be in the bottom of the Shields-Warren building... not sure if it's still there, but look around (I was there over 5 yrs ago).

I actually agree with your second point below. SGU/Ross are likely better than some of the lowest tier brand new places in terms of quality of education (they are established schools). If you graduate (and with Ross especially this is a big if) then residency programs have some familiarity with your program vs a brand new school. And, I would shift this discussion toward quality of schools.

There are also amazing international programs that aren't in the Caribbean (Oxford, Cambridge, Dundee etc) and (though likely hard to get in as an American) these school are established and offer a solid education (though, likely not geared toward the USMLE).

You say you see "a lot of DOs at BI" well I don't.

Quality of education? DO schools win hands down. If that's what you're concerned with then go to DO school. But in all honesty I would argue that SGU/Ross has better education than some of the lower DO schools.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I agree with everything in your post EXCEPT below. Normally, the first question is where did he/she do his residency (this after that basic question of is the person a competent doctor).

Let's be honest, you learn your doctoring schools in residency (not in med school). When choosing a physician, I look for folks that went to competitive residencies. I do tend to glance where they went to med school, but it's better for them to have gone to a low ranked med program and competitive residency than the other way around.

the first question will be "where did you go to medical school?"

 

[qwerty2012]

There is no denial..that some schools like graduates of Oxford, Cambridge, Melbourne, Mcgill are equal to par with some of best MD schools in the states.

No denial.

 

[abolt18]

I never once claimed why it's more logical to go to the carib over do. If all I cared about were match lists and education then I would choose DO. However I wouldn't want to deal with the stigma associated with being a DO. And after a lot of literature reading on the topic I've come to the conclusion that yes there is a bias towards DOs.

Besides I'm going to an allo school here in the states but I'm just saying if I had to choose between the two I would go to the caribbean.

The bias exists in old MD's and a bunch ignorant pre-meds (at least these are the only ones I've seen project any bias), but I'd say there's a rare bias from patients because most are ignorant and don't even notice that you're a DO instead of an MD. I've shadowed a DO and he always had his days packed morning to night every day. You call at 8:30 to take his "emergency" slots because if you call at 8:35 they're all filled up. Anytime it was even brought up by patients that his tag said DO, he just explained to them the difference and they said "oh ok cool." He is actually now my family doc for my wife and I (and our baby to be) because I was extremely impressed by him has a physician.

The point is, the majority of patients don't even notice a difference in the initials, and those that do, don't usually care. When it comes down to it, he was busy and making money because he was a great doctor who respected and cared for his patients.

 

[TriagePreMed]

This question doesn't make sense without the schools in question. For example, I will find an Oxford or Cambridge MD much more prestigious any day than an MD from Southern Illinois University of University of West Virginia.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I realize I gave a lot of responses in this thread, but never actually looked at the OPs questions. So here are my answers directly to the OP.

Hi,
Any thoughts on the pros & cons of attended a foreign medical school (ECFMG accredited) vs. an Osteopathic school in the USA?
If you want to practice in the US, stay in the US. There are great foreign medical schools (like McGill) that are good choices, but assuming you are talking about Caribbean and Eastern Europe, I think a good general rule is stay in the US.

Which one (if either) is seen as offering a better education?
This is impossible to answer. Research how you learn best and what environments you thrive in. Some people love PBL (problem based learning) while others prefer traditional lectures. You have the opportunity to do well going almost anywhere (make sure the school is on the CA list so not to limit yourself), make sure you go in knowing you have one shot, one opportunity to get everything you want... will you capture it or just let it slip (sorry for the Eminem reference, couldn't help myself).

How would it effect residency choices? Would either negatively effect chances of getting into competitive residencies?
A LOT. Where you go to school effects how well you score on the steps (on average) and this in turn effects where you get residency. If you go to Harvard and score very high on the USMLE you are better off than being at SGU and scoring high. But, like everything, there is more to the equation. There are interviews as well. You need to be exceptional to match at a competitive place. Your school will be a factor, but it won't be the only factor.

Which one is better respected?
Depends on which MD school and which DO school. I've been in health care for close to a decade and the only place I've seen MD/DO matter is in pharma. A lot of people in pharma have an MD and never did a residency.

In your opinion, which is the best choice?
The best choice is the most competitive school you can get into, where you can learn to be a great doctor and succeed (it is likely a different school for you vs me). I personally would have second thoughts about any Caribbean school that isn't the Big 4 (and I'd have some second thoughts about the Big 4). I'd have no reservations with McGill, Oxford and the like. Again, how do you learn, how do people from the school you are looking at score on the USMLE, what's the pass rate, what is the match list like. What is the attrition rate (it's useless to say 100% pass rate, but know that 50% of the students are not even allowed to take Step 1 b/c they may fail). Learn the answers to all these questions before going to a school.

 

[AlongWay]

There is no denial..that some schools like graduates of Oxford, Cambridge, Melbourne, Mcgill are equal to par with some of best MD schools in the states.

No denial.

McGill gives preference to residents of Quebec, then Canadians outside Quebec, then internationals. Something like 9 seats are reserved for international students. Im not sure how it is at Oxford or Cambridge, but it is probably comparable. Point being that people from those med schools probably compose >1% of the FMG body.

It has no reflection on how good FMG students actually are. It makes much more sense to compare Carrib grads since a good portion of their student body are composed of US and Canadian students. Point being that the chances of you getting into a good DO school and landing a top allo residency is much higher than the chances of you attending med school at places like McGill, Oxford, or Cambridge.

I will agree that this is the norm, but there is always the exception, ie, one or two patients here and there who stare at the initials DO, and then demand to be treated by a "real doctor" (ie an MD). Or the people who will never step into your practice because even though your specialty is written outside your door in huge letters, they just don't know what 'DO' is and so are hesitant.

If people like that actually exist then I just feel bad and pity them for their ignorance.

If all I cared about were match lists and education then I would choose DO.

This is all what most rational people care about. Guess your the exception.

However I wouldn't want to deal with the stigma associated with being a DO.

Your right. It must be horrifying being able to be a fully licesened physician, treat patients, and make people better for a living. It must also be hard raking in 200-300K a year (if your in a specialty) while doing that. Man do DO's out there have it bad - especially because the only down side to that is having to deal with the occassional idiotic and ignorant MD or med student who thinks DO's are "inferior", however in reality, these people are probably just more insecure with themselves than having an actual prejudice. Like you.