Most Allopathic Curriculum/Character?

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Stillfocused, Nov 19, 2002.

  1. Stillfocused

    Stillfocused Senior Member

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    Which DO school has the most allopathic curriculum and/or character? CCOM?

    At what DO school is one most likely to receive the most traditional,
    orthodox medical education?

    I know that "med school is what you put into it" but thats not the whole story, curriculum, history and institutional character also count.

    What school has the most traditional osteopathic curriculum and/or character? KCOM, UNECOM?
     
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  3. Naraku

    Naraku Senior Member

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    Probably UMDNJ-SOM. We seem much closer to our sister schools (Robert Wood Johnson and New Jersey Medical School) than to the other osteopathic schools. Although the Dean likes to remind us that we will one day be "physicans... _osteopathic_ physicians," our OMM goes from little (first and second years) to essentially none (third and fourth years). I'd say that our focus on patient care as opposed to symptom care is pretty strong, but I'm not convinced that that's an entirely osteopathic trait. Good school, though. I recommend it.

    Paige
     
  4. AthensfromCols

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    If you are so worried about going to a DO school that is like an MD school, then you shouldn't go to a DO school at all.

    It really chaps my a** when people go DO because they can't get into an MD school...

    If that's the case, I hope you don't get accepted...

    If that's not the case, please tell us why you are so interested in the allopathic model of medical education in your future DO school...
     
  5. Stillfocused

    Stillfocused Senior Member

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    I am applying to DO schools only and I am really interested in finding the school has the most traditional osteopathic curriculum and/or character. I think that UNECOM, KCOM come closest.

    However, I have asked the question before only to hear the self evident "med school is what you put into it" line. So, I thought I would try a different tack.

    Do you find that Vasaline works well for a chapped a** AthensfromCols?

    Thanks for your take on UMDNJ-SOM Naraku.
     
  6. prefontaine

    prefontaine Senior Member

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    least osteopathic...UMDNJ, UHS and/or OSU, depending upon who you talk to...this is becoming an increasingly competitive category with many contenders

    most...probably the previously mentioned...UNE or KCOM
     
  7. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    Just curious

    Why would you include OSU?
     
  8. San_Juan_Sun

    San_Juan_Sun Professor of Life

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    Unfortunately, this is one of those questions where people don't really have good answers, just wild guesses. It's very similar to the best DO school questions, the best DO school rep questions, etc. It's just way too complex for people of limited experience to give a good, factual answer too.

    Of course, people are more than free to give opinions, but it would be nice if they identified them as such.

    Until a person has been at all 19 DO schools, and until some one has also been to a majority of MD schools, and defines what a classic allo- education is, most people aren't speaking with much knowledge.

    Anyways, good luck in finding an answer, and best of luck to you as you ponder your future decisions.
     
  9. prefontaine

    prefontaine Senior Member

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    Having trained in an ACGME residency and now working in an OMM department at one of the older programs...as well as knowing the OMM chairs at 18 of the 20 AOA schools (including Defeo at Virginia)...and also having worked with students from most of the AOA schools I would not put my response in the 'wild guess' category.

    Having considered accepting a position at several of the programs, it is a topic I have investigated.

    In fact, in the not too recent past I have had a similar conversation with the former OMM chairs of KCOM and COMP. My comments mirror the opinions of at least three recent AAO presidents.

    Hopefully, John Glover is upgrading the OMM at OSU.

    Finally, none of the schools do a good job with OMM continuity during the third and fourth years.
     
  10. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    Dr. Glover is the OMM guru, along with Harriet Shaw and Robin Dyer. I think half of my class is a bit afraid of Dr. Glover because he's the pickiest one during our lab practicals. :eek:

    ;)
     
  11. pathdr2b

    pathdr2b Banned
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    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    I think the question is a good one especially since I'll be applying to UMDNJ allopathic and osteopathic meidcal programs next year.

    No, I'm not looking for a "back up" plan having been accepted to an allopathic MD program a few years ago ( I didn't matriculate), but now that I'm older I want to be sure I attend the program that's best for me and my family. I'll check them both out and see what happens ;) .
     
  12. shindog

    shindog Member

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    OSU is definitely in the lower tier when you consider OMM character. It's pretty much up to the student to learn as much or as little as you want. That's one of the reasons I chose this school. I wasn't sure how "into" OMT I would be, so OSU gives me the flexibility to get out as much as I want. From what I've heard from people I know at DMU and KCOM, they are the two most "osteopathic" schools. Their students consistently score in the top three on the OMT section of the COMLEX. While OSU is down in the bottom five or six. This can be either good or bad depending on how much OMT you plan on using in your practice. It's not that you can't learn a lot of OMT at OSU; it just isn't as stressed as it is at KCOM or DMU.
     
  13. Stillfocused

    Stillfocused Senior Member

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    Thanks prefontaine!

    CCOM seems outwardly very allo but I noticed that they have a number of pretty cool electives. How long do you think Kappler will be around?

    PCOM has put at least two pretty big dogs (Kuchera and Crowe) together in their OMM dept who have fairly different approaches to OMM. Will the dept be split in a rivalry? Do you think that they will increase the profile of OMT at PCOM?

    My interest is mainly in how OPP is integrated into the rest of a schools curriculum though.

    Where are the OMT COMLEX results posted?
     
  14. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned
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    We have more big dogs than that.

    The OMM department here rocks.

    Won't find a better one anywhere else.
     
  15. jd star

    jd star Senior Member

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    I interviewed at PCOM and Nova.... and it seemed to me that Nova had a better OMM (or OPP or whatever) department. I've also heard this from various students and faculty. Just my observation....
     
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  17. BrooklynDO

    BrooklynDO Senior Member

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    I'd like to think NYCOM is up there in the OMM category.
    Dont know much about current "luminaries" in the field, since Schiowitz and Digeovanna essentially retired, but we do get a lot of OMM, and there is ample opportunity to learn more if one is interested.
    but Im a bit partial.
    ~NYCOM 2006
     
  18. jhug

    jhug 1K Member

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    like san-juan-sun said-- my "wild guess" would be that state schools and those that work closely with neighboring allo schools will be the most allopathic in nature, while the schools farthest away (kcom, dmu) will be the most osteopathic in nature. But i would venture to say that most are somewhere in the middle.
     
  19. shindog

    shindog Member

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    Hey Wish,

    Why don't you CHILL OUT. Some OSTEOPATHIC schools focus more on OMM than others. I think that's what the original poster was getting at.
     
  20. THE O

    THE O Junior Member

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    The question here is simple....Which DO school turns out docs that have the same opportunities as MD's.

    As you put it.....Med school is what you put into it....

    As far as I know PCOM has had a good record of putting out a good number of specialists and surgeons......and have the smallest number of grads entering into traditional 'DO' fields such as primary care-family practice.

    Not to say that that is due to a weakness in the school's program...but a product of its location in a large city such as philadelphia.

    Furthermore...the school itself has been around for 100 years, has established itself in the philadelphia medical community, and has grads as faculty and affiliations with all the major centers in the city (PENN, JEFFERSON, TEMPLE, MCP/Hanhmemann) and surrounding areas (Lehigh Valley, St. Lukes, Geisinger).

    If you are looking to obtain a more widely recognized and respected DO degree, you are probably best off attending an established school that has been around for some time (ie PCOM, KCOM, CCOM) or one that is a subsidiary of a large medical center/University (ie Michigan St.-COM and UMDNJ-COM).

    Also.. If you are looking to enter a specialized or competative field (ie. Ortho, Derm, Uro, ENT, Neuro-Surg, Optho...) look at the residency programs in the school's OPTI (Osteopathic Post-Grad Training Intsitute) and see which residencies the school supports and how many spots per year are available.....

    Eitherway.....as an MD from PENN told me....If you present well, treat well, and are a good Doc everything will fall into place...

    Good luck...hope you get in....and when you graduate.......
    Show them your O-face---- THE-O (PCOM'06)
    :clap:
     
  21. Chisel

    Chisel Senior Member

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    QUOTE]I interviewed at PCOM and Nova.... and it seemed to me that Nova had a better OMM (or OPP or whatever) department. I've also heard this from various students and faculty. Just my observation....[/QUOTE]

    In my opinion, PCOM has the best OMM Department in the country. Crow, Kuchera, Jones....these guys are all "well known" when it comes to OMM.

    Also, (in my opinion) I think the amount of time and energy you put into becoming an "Osteopathic Physician" is what will determine how you will practice. I think there are some D.O.'s who are Osteopaths by degree but choose not to approach there practice in the truly Osteopathic fashion.
     
  22. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned
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    THE O and Chisel make good points.

    And they are both PCOMers.

    See a common thread here?

    They are PCOMers and say smart things.

    I am a PCOMer and say smart things.

    Ahhh...it's all falling into place now.

    But I agree. I think that the best school is the one that is best for you (ok, ok, that's cliche, but it's true).

    As far as OMM departments, I think it is hard to compare school to school unless you have spent significant time in two schools. I feel that PCOM is strong in faculty, but doesn't emphasize OMM as much due to time constraints with lab periods.

    As far as getting a good residency, school attended is one of the less important factors.
     
  23. John DO

    John DO A.T. Still Endowed Chair

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    Please, DrMom, let's not be too hasty in that department!! Any mention of guru MUST include the name of the late Herbert Yates, D.O. If you do not agree, ask Dr. Glover, Dr. Yates' best friend. Just because he is gone doesn't mean he wasn't the guru!
     
  24. Sweaty Paul

    Sweaty Paul Senior Member

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    Seeking definitions for the discussion:

    1) What is being educated in an allopathic fashion?

    2) What is being educated in an osteopathic fashion?


    is being educated in the osteopathic fashion mean only OTM?
    or is it the patient centered approach?...which is being taught at most allopathic institutions too?

    I'm curious.

    Sweaty Paul
     
  25. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    Wasn't trying to leave Dr Yates out, he just hasn't been here since I have so I never met him (nor did my classmates). Ergo, he isn't the guru to my class. No foul intended.
     
  26. John DO

    John DO A.T. Still Endowed Chair

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    No foul implied. I have met Dr. Glover on a couple of occasions and have really been impressed, although he never replied to an invitation that I extended him to come speak at our school. It has been a few years since Dr. Yates left OSU-COM to come here . . 5, I believe. He was an Oklahoman until the end, though! We often joked about how the Okies have to stick together, so we were buddies, along with our Okie dean, Dr. Robbins.

    So, how is first year so far? Do you feel like you are slighted in OMM, like the reputation implies? Friends I have at OSU have not mentioned there being a problem, but maybe it is because there is no way to compare it, having only attended one school!
     
  27. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    I'm plugging along. Finals are in 1 1/2 weeks, so its pretty crazy right now.

    I don't know that I feel slighted in OMM, but it does seem rushed. They show us how to do something, we get to try it for a few minutes, and then we move on to something else. That makes it a bit difficult for me to really get a good feel for what we're supposed to be doing. We do have tutors to help keep us up to speed. Overall, I feel like I'm getting it, though.

    I don't have any idea how other schools do it. This semester we have 1 hr lecture each week giving us the theory of what we're doing and then we have a 2 hr lab to practice. I know that the contact hours increase starting next semester (I think it goes to 7 hrs/week).
     
  28. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member
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    Uhh...what if you really want to be a doctor? What do you do if you want to be a physician, but no MD school accepts you?

    Sorry...I just wanted to be a doctor...didn't really care what letters would eventually come after my name. Sorry if my being here 'chaps your ass' - maybe you need your sacrum adijusted :laugh:

    BTW, I'm in your class -- CPC -- see ya in OMM lab next week!
     
  29. DOSouthpaw

    DOSouthpaw Senior Member

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    I'm going to plug Pikeville's OPP program. Dr. Ed Stiles is awesome. If you want to be a family doc and use OPP, Pikeville is the place to go. Stiles teaches us how to find the AGR fast and treat quickly. Stiles teaches that after the first two years a good student can screen a patient and find the AGR in one minute. Saying that there is no reason OPP can not be used in one's practice because "there is not enough time."

    As far as intergration of OPP into other subjects......it ain't happenin' here unless it's an aside mention or even worse, a put down.
     
  30. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member
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    Same here at OUCOM. There is very little (read: none) integration here at all. However, our physiology professor has enrolled in our OMM course -- taking OMM with the first years (which is a little weird for them, but that's another story). No matter what his reason for doing so is, I think it's great and he will undoubtedly be in the unique position to integrate OMM principles with physiology in his future lectures -- I think osteo schools should encourage this type of cross-training among faculty -- it's definitely a step in the right direction
     
  31. Homunculus

    Homunculus SDN Caveman Administrator
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    DrMom and johnDO--

    a little late on the conversation, but it got bumped to the top and i read it.

    OSU's OMM is very much get out what you put into it kinda thing. they teach you what you need to know for the comlex, and if you want more you hafta pretty much do it on your own. my suggestion to students here is to do the tuesday UAAO clinic-- you will get lots of practice, which is prety much what omt boils down to. I know the current UAAO pres is a little . . . well, weird for my tastes, but hell, if you join you can go the the national convention, which is pretty cool. :) i went last year to Norfolk and had a great time. i think it's somehwere in canada this year . . Last year the current AAO's presidents' wife was possesed by AT Still himself i think-- during his acceptance speech she started going off on how much he loves osteopathy and how much the surrounding md's suck (keep in mind there are international md's and american md's who are trainied in OMT in attendance as well). . it was pretty funny, but embarrassing for the incoming president. Dr. Zink i think told him to get the microphone from her before she said something he'd *really* regret, lol.

    as for Dr. Yates (God rest his soul) Dr. Glover (national AAO pres before the current one), and OSU's omm program, this is what i have put together. Apparently Yates wanted more emphasis on omt, b/c he felt the school was beginning to spend much more time clinically and wanted his fair share too. dean disagreed, Yates left. G-Love comes in, takes over, but here's the kicker-- he's the head of OMT, but he's NOT the head of his department-- at least as of the last time i heard, G-Love is still technically UNDER the OCS chair-- Dr. Eddy. So G-Love basically has no power to change anything at the school right now. kinda sucks, b/c he has some fantastic ideas. it also sucks because he's the one that gets bitched out by students who don't put the time into omt and want everything watered down for them on practicals.

    anyway, Dr. Glover is a great guy-- he took the entire OSU UAAO national convention crew to a seafood buffet in Norfolk-- fun stuff. someday soon he will be a "crusty". "Crusty" is the term a few of my friends and I give to the oldschool OMT gurus who can myofascial you for a few minutes, then tell you to take a deep breath and have every bone pop, twist, and go back to where it belongs. fortunately we do have Dr. Graham, who is a cranial crusty already, but that's a completely different story. If given the chance, Glover will make OSU better at OMT-- but he's gotta get the opportunity.

    That being said, i would rate school's OMT programs on the numbers of Crusties they have. Unfortunately having almost one doesn't hold a candle to some schools like K'ville and PCOM, who have several.

    damn. that's the longest post i think i've ever made on these boards, lol.
     
  32. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    I've had a couple of extensive conversations with Dr Glover about what he has & is going to change in the OMM program. What made you think that he has no power to do so? Just curious.
     
  33. Homunculus

    Homunculus SDN Caveman Administrator
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    a lot has happened since last spring-- some of the "influence" left recently to take on new duties. ;) i think you'll know what i mean.

    with that person outta the chain of command, it leaves G-Love more free to do as he likes-- and things interdepartmentally may have changed over the summer-- all i know he was pretty disgruntled about it when he explained to us how he didn't have any power to change anything last spring. His newfound enthusiasm hopefully means things have changed for the better.

    I don't see much of the school anymore being out on rotations, so my finger isn't on the pulse there like it once was. i'll have to leave it up to you to keep me informed, lol.

    good luck with second semester :)
     
  34. jimdo

    jimdo Senior Member

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    This is a poor question for a few reasons:

    1) There is no one here who can answer from an educated standpoint because no one has been a student at all of the osteopathic schools. Therefore, every opinion stated is one based on what has been heard is is basically heresay.

    2) Being that the vast majority of those posting here are medical students, there is very little experience with the practice of medicine. Now you might say that I did xxx for 3 years before medical school, but the fact remains that the practice of medicine is something that one must experience firsthand before a judgement can be made. By the way, if youre in an osteopathic school as a student, how do you have any idea of what allopathic medicine is like in its essence and/or practice?

    3) Most DOs would struggle at discussing the difference in the types of medical practice. What makes you think that first or second year students would have any clue?

    4) As an osteopathic student, there really is no firsthand experience of being an allopathic student. In effect, its again what you hear and thereofre heresay.

    5) Lastly, if youre worried about one school being most like another, then you shouldnt go to the former. Get your priorities in line first before any major decision.
     

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