Most Overrated/Underrated IM programs

gtjarbiter

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Finishing up my third year of medical school and planning on doing IM. I've talked with the PD and chair at my home institution (top 25 place not on either coast) and also by browsing these forums and talking with faculty I wanted to make a list of the most overrated and underrated IM programs to help guide me and other applicants over the next few months as we decide where to apply and fill out ERAS and everything. So here is my opinion (based on academic rep, future opportunities, institutional power and training):

Most overrated:
Yale (not top 30, boosted just by institution name)
Northwestern (not top 15, boosted by location and cushy rep)
BID (not top 15, boosted by harvard association)
Stanford (not top 15, boosted just by institution name)
Cleveland Clinic (not top 30, maybe not top 50)
UCSD (not top 30, boosted by location)

Most underrated:
UAB (top 30, hurt by location)
University of Iowa (top 30, ditto)
Mayo (Rochester) (top 15, ditto)
University of Chicago (top 15)
Ohio State University (top 30)
UTSW (Top 10)
Mt. Sinai (top 15)

Properly Rated (top 9):
JHH, BWH, MGH, UCSF
Duke, Penn, Columbia, Michigan
Wash U
UCLA and UW - top 15 places, usually recognized as such

Anyone have other programs to add or want to agree or disagree?
 
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dyeguy21

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Finishing up my third year of medical school and planning on doing IM. I've talked with the PD and chair at my home institution (top 25 place not on either coast) and also by browsing these forums and talking with faculty I wanted to make a list of the most overrated and underrated IM programs to help guide me and other applicants over the next few months as we decide where to apply and fill out ERAS and everything. So here is my opinion (based on academic rep, future opportunities, institutional power and training):

Most overrated:
Yale (not top 30, boosted just by institution name)
Northwestern (not top 15, boosted by location and cushy rep)
BID (not top 15, boosted by harvard association)
Stanford (not top 15, boosted just by institution name)
Cleveland Clinic (not top 30, maybe not top 50)
UCSD (not top 30, boosted by location)

Most underrated:
UAB (top 30, hurt by location)
University of Iowa (top 30, ditto)
Mayo (Rochester) (top 15, ditto)
University of Chicago (top 15)
Ohio State University (top 30)
UTSW (Top 10)
Mt. Sinai (top 15)

Properly Rated (top 9):
JHH, BWH, MGH, UCSF
Duke, Penn, Columbia, Michigan
Wash U
UCLA and UW - top 15 places, usually recognized as such

Anyone have other programs to add or want to agree or disagree?

For your under-rated: Very few people under-rate OSU, UTSW was known to be malignant unil they recently got a new PD that apparently is doing a good job, Mayo has always been amazing...the problem is its in Rochester where the air hurts 80% of the year.

For over-rated: It may be true, but names mean something in addition to the fact that you will have a bunch of people applying to a place to get a name. People like to say, "I attended Yale/Stanford/Cleveland Clinic for my residency." over "I attended University of Chicago/UAB/University of Iowa." The big names carry weight, even if the facts and stats say otherwise.
 
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Animalcules

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Finishing up my third year of medical school and planning on doing IM. I've talked with the PD and chair at my home institution (top 25 place not on either coast) and also by browsing these forums and talking with faculty I wanted to make a list of the most overrated and underrated IM programs to help guide me and other applicants over the next few months as we decide where to apply and fill out ERAS and everything. So here is my opinion (based on academic rep, future opportunities, institutional power and training):

Most overrated:
Yale (not top 30, boosted just by institution name)
Northwestern (not top 15, boosted by location and cushy rep)
BID (not top 15, boosted by harvard association)
Stanford (not top 15, boosted just by institution name)
Cleveland Clinic (not top 30, maybe not top 50)
UCSD (not top 30, boosted by location)

Most underrated:
UAB (top 30, hurt by location)
University of Iowa (top 30, ditto)
Mayo (Rochester) (top 15, ditto)
University of Chicago (top 15)
Ohio State University (top 30)
UTSW (Top 10)
Mt. Sinai (top 15)

Properly Rated (top 9):
JHH, BWH, MGH, UCSF
Duke, Penn, Columbia, Michigan
Wash U
UCLA and UW - top 15 places, usually recognized as such

Anyone have other programs to add or want to agree or disagree?

Most overrated:
Mayo (Rochester) - depends where you place it, it is certainly not a top 5 residency program as suggested by Doximity
Cleveland Clinic
Emory
Chicago programs
UPMC
Bayview

Most underrated:
Yale - lots of negativity on SDN, great program, incredibly supportive, research top 3
UAB (hurt by location) - agree
University of Iowa (top 30) - agree
UTSW (Top 10) - would likely be a top 5 program if not in Dallas/ UT name/ so young

Properly Rated:
JHH, BWH, MGH, UCSF
BIDMC - just hurt by direct competition with BWH, MGH
Duke, Penn, Columbia
Vanderbilt
Cornell
Wash U
Mt. Sinai

That was fun.
 
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theimapplicant2016

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Here are my feelings based on observation and discussion:

Overrated:
Yale - Nothing particularly stands out about this institution and the consensus seems to be that it is weak and falling farther. Vast majority of residents from low tier northeast schools
Cornell - In my opinion the overall weakest of the "elite" New York programs, once again with nothing to recommend it really (outside of onc)
Georgetown - Not a great program but gets better applicants than it deserves imo
OHSU - ones again gets lots of applicants and quality residents when academically it is probably on par with the good but not great east coast/midwest programs (think U Maryland, etc)
Wisconsin - People on SDN act like this program is great but outside of an apparently cool PD nothing sets it apart

Underrated:
NYU - great clinical teaching, IMO best location of big NY programs, with pathology and volume that can't be beat
UTSW - same as above; pathology and clinical experience that can't be beat, huge system in large metro area without much competition
Dartmouth - Great program, very supportive, interesting location. Ivy league name. I can see why it isn't for some but I think it is underrated.
UCLA - 2nd best west coast program after UCSF, ideal location, friendliest and coolest residents
 

gutonc

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Man what a circle jerk of a thread. One man's "elite" program is another's "overrated". People with different career goals will favor different places.
Did you really think that it was going to wind up any other way?

Overrated: Programs I really wanted to interview at but didn't get invited to.

Underrated: Programs I'd never heard of until my advisor saw my initial list and went all Kanye "Brah!" on me.
 
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IMreshopeful

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Did you really think that it was going to wind up any other way?

Overrated: Programs I really wanted to interview at but didn't get invited to.

Underrated: Programs I'd never heard of until my advisor saw my initial list and went all Kanye "Brah!" on me.

Pretty much.

The basic truth is that any decent academic program will give you good training, and that the rest of the selection process is largely related to how well you fit in + location.
 

karayraisu

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I went to med school in NYC and stayed of residency. I have med school classmates at all of the major NYC programs and we still hang out regularly. My take away after intern year even in the little NYC bubble is:

Overrated - if there's a university name that your grandmother has heard of attached to it
Underrated - programs with large patient volume but doesn't have great recognition outside of the tri-state area/east coast

Some of the NYC programs outside of the big 4 honestly still have pretty fantastic training and good fellowship matches, but are pooh-poohed on SDN and easily dismissed in the prestige-crazed threads. It's also amusing that people speak with so much conviction and authority regarding the quality of a program who they spent one day at, or worse yet, have not visited even.
 
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HarryGary

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This is the second time I've made the mistake of stopping by SDN in the past several months.

This clip from Annie Hall sums up my feelings on the magnificently uninformed opinions of rising interns and 3rd year medical students who post here.

 
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tantacles

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Did you really think that it was going to wind up any other way?

Overrated: Programs I really wanted to interview at but didn't get invited to.

Underrated: Programs I'd never heard of until my advisor saw my initial list and went all Kanye "Brah!" on me.

Following this paradigm: No one ever mentions Case Western! And I'll be the first one to sing its praises.
 
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smartparts

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Georgetown - Not a great program but gets better applicants than it deserves imo

Georgetown is a surprisingly difficult program. Their call/admitting and MICU schedules are brutal from what I hear. I think the program has the reputation it deserves. Definitely not grossly overrated like other places mentioned.

Agree with the sentiments about Yale. Very "complete" program, but the name is what drives up peoples' opinions.
 
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NoLollipops4U

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Underrated - programs with large patient volume but doesn't have great recognition outside of the tri-state area/east coast

Some of the NYC programs outside of the big 4 honestly still have pretty fantastic training and good fellowship matches, but are pooh-poohed on SDN and easily dismissed in the prestige-crazed threads. It's also amusing that people speak with so much conviction and authority regarding the quality of a program who they spent one day at, or worse yet, have not visited even.

Which programs are you referring to? I am interested in applying to NYC programs this upcoming cycle, maybe even something through VSAS. Are you referring to Mount Sinai programs like St Luke/Roosevolt and Beth Israel? Or Northshore programs?

Thanks
 

HelpPleaseMD

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Which programs are you referring to? I am interested in applying to NYC programs this upcoming cycle, maybe even something through VSAS. Are you referring to Mount Sinai programs like St Luke/Roosevolt and Beth Israel? Or Northshore programs?

Thanks

I believe he is referring to the NYC community programs +/- north shore. Obviously they are not in the same league as the above mentioned programs. This person is right that we cannot be sure how the training is at the other NYC programs without having trained there, but rumors are that its not great.

But this conversation has no place in this thread as they are referring to overrated/underated of top programs
 

WilliamofOckham

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Here are my feelings based on observation and discussion:

Overrated:
Yale - Nothing particularly stands out about this institution and the consensus seems to be that it is weak and falling farther. Vast majority of residents from low tier northeast schools
Cornell - In my opinion the overall weakest of the "elite" New York programs, once again with nothing to recommend it really (outside of onc)
Georgetown - Not a great program but gets better applicants than it deserves imo
OHSU - ones again gets lots of applicants and quality residents when academically it is probably on par with the good but not great east coast/midwest programs (think U Maryland, etc)
Wisconsin - People on SDN act like this program is great but outside of an apparently cool PD nothing sets it apart

Underrated:
NYU - great clinical teaching, IMO best location of big NY programs, with pathology and volume that can't be beat
UTSW - same as above; pathology and clinical experience that can't be beat, huge system in large metro area without much competition
Dartmouth - Great program, very supportive, interesting location. Ivy league name. I can see why it isn't for some but I think it is underrated.
UCLA - 2nd best west coast program after UCSF, ideal location, friendliest and coolest residents

Who cares whether residents come from "low tier" schools?

For all you know, those guys got >265 on their Steps and had significant research.
 
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NoLollipops4U

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I believe he is referring to the NYC community programs +/- north shore. Obviously they are not in the same league as the above mentioned programs. This person is right that we cannot be sure how the training is at the other NYC programs without having trained there, but rumors are that its not great.

But this conversation has no place in this thread as they are referring to overrated/underated of top programs

Oh yeah I'm definitely aware the other NYC "big 4" are completely different. I was just curious if I had overlooked some programs in NYC. I will still be applying broadly anyways.

This thread is definitely a little ridiculous. I started reading it then realized people were contradicting each other then came back to reality that most people will have different opinions based on different rumors or hopefully experiences.
 

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The one’s that stick out to me are:

Overrated: Michigan, Yale, NYU, CCF, USC, OSU, Rush, Tufts, UCLA-Harbor, Fake Mayos, and UPenn Affiliate.

Underrated: Duke, Emory, Baylor, Alabama, Case, Iowa, OHSU, Wisconsin, Cincinnati, UIC, Loyola, and Henry Ford.
I think HF is underrated because it's a very FMG/IMG friendly. But it's a good program overall.
 
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DBV

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The one’s that stick out to me are:

Overrated: Michigan, Yale, NYU, CCF, USC, OSU, Rush, Tufts, UCLA-Harbor, Fake Mayos, and UPenn Affiliate.

Underrated: Duke, Emory, Baylor, Alabama, Case, Iowa, OHSU, Wisconsin, Cincinnati, UIC, Loyola, and Henry Ford.

I would say duke is adequately rated. Hard to underrate it at 6 on doximity.
 

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The one’s that stick out to me are:

Overrated: Michigan, Yale, NYU, CCF, USC, OSU, Rush, Tufts, UCLA-Harbor, Fake Mayos, and UPenn Affiliate.

Underrated: Duke, Emory, Baylor, Alabama, Case, Iowa, OHSU, Wisconsin, Cincinnati, UIC, Loyola, and Henry Ford.

Looks like someone drank the kool aid of the trolls on the IM spreadsheet this year.
 
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wiloghby

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I was really blown away by Mayo-MN and Cornell on the interview trail -- two programs that deserve much more love than they get on this forum.

I choose not to categorize any programs as overrated.
 
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IMreshopeful

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I was really blown away by Mayo-MN and Cornell on the interview trail -- two programs that deserve much more love than they get on this forum.

I choose not to categorize any programs as overrated.

Ugh Mayo. I’m sure the training is decent but the culture... if you like wearing suits every day and reading your echos flipped backwards I guess that’s alright
 
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Crayola227

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The one’s that stick out to me are:

Overrated: Michigan, Yale, NYU, CCF, USC, Rush, Tufts, UCLA-Harbor, Fake Mayos, and UPenn Affiliate.

Underrated: Duke, Emory, Baylor, Alabama, Case, Iowa, OHSU, Wisconsin, Cincinnati, UIC, Loyola, and Henry Ford.

I don't think most of the places on your "underrated" list are actually underrated (which decreases the utility of such labels)

I also don't think the "Fake Mayos" are overrated because I don't think most people take them seriously to begin with

Your overrated list is probably the most useful thing so far, still, overall the the whole thing is what we should already know
 

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This year most info was on a spreadsheet on Reddit. I thought it was well done for the most part but there were some trolls on there. Regardless, I still agree with my post, but maybe put OSU/Michigan and possibly NYU in the correctly rated column. If you look at my list again with that, there’s a very clear pattern of less desirable places as being underrated. @Anicetus , if I remember correctly you’ve got a pretty big city/coastal bias. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s not Kool Aid.
I don’t disagree with what you said. Was responding to the other guy. Trolls, kool aid and spreadsheets make for a delightfully absurd SDN diss.
 

Anicetus

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This year most info was on a spreadsheet on Reddit. I thought it was well done for the most part but there were some trolls on there. Regardless, I still agree with my post, but maybe put OSU/Michigan and possibly NYU in the correctly rated column. If you look at my list again with that, there’s a very clear pattern of less desirable places as being underrated. @Anicetus , if I remember correctly you’ve got a pretty big city/coastal bias. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s not Kool Aid.

Fair enough. I agree with harbor and probably Yale, but USC and Tufts? Did you interview at those places? I personally thought they were underrated if anything despite being coastal because of the surrounding “Harvard level” programs. There was one person dissing them on the spreadsheet, they even changed other people’s comments and responses about some of those particular programs so it literally was just the opinion of one person messing with the whole spreadsheet. That sheet lost its entire credibility in my class.
 

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Fair enough. I agree with harbor and probably Yale, but USC and Tufts? Did you interview at those places? I personally thought they were underrated if anything despite being coastal because of the surrounding “Harvard level” programs. There was one person dissing them on the spreadsheet, they even changed other people’s comments and responses about some of those particular programs so it literally was just the opinion of one person messing with the whole spreadsheet. That sheet lost its entire credibility in my class.

And that's why as a general rule, it's important to take the things you read online or hear from other people who are competing for the same spots as you with a grain of salt.

Honestly this whole thread seems a bit crazy to me since you'll generally only have the experience to train at one place and will basically never have any other frame of reference for comparison.
 
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siliso

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Underrated: my local (and maybe your local) state U midwestern academic medicine program. Our people get great training and do whatever it is you want to do. And what’s more if you’re academically and personally strong we’ll be thrilled to have you and give you every opportunity at our disposal, research, chiefdom, what have you.

Overrated: all places with a notable suicide incidence. Don’t give them another glance.
 
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I personally don’t know anything about Tufts but I think Doximity ranks it fairly highly already despite that. USC is So-Cal and before interview season I expected it to be UCSD/UCLA/UCSF but obviously a little less, but from what I heard from people I met on the trail and classmates who interviewed, the IM spreadsheet, and SDN, it’s basically a better version of Harbor with a similar environment. Tons of people probably hold it in high regard because of the So-Cal/Pasadena label.

I heard Harbor program is going into problems and couldnt match all their spots....USC better I think
 

IMreshopeful

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I know Mayo has a super formal dress code by what about echos? Haven’t heard this one.

Would google it to see picture examples but as noted above the pictures are often literally flipped around (LV is on the left, etc). There’s literally no logical reason for this other than to be “different”. It’s made fun of by almost every cardiology program in the country

It’s also probably one of many reasons why Mayo grads tend to stay in a hospital that is either Mayo Clinic or affiliated with the Mayo Clinic after training
 

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Its all relative.
Mayo is more like top 10-15- they are at forefront of GME education, burnout etc.
UAB is a solid training program- gets hurt by its location in Birmingham and its past reputation as being an intense program. UTSW is also somewhat hurt by its past reputation.
 

EPADHA

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Would google it to see picture examples but as noted above the pictures are often literally flipped around (LV is on the left, etc). There’s literally no logical reason for this other than to be “different”. It’s made fun of by almost every cardiology program in the country

It’s also probably one of many reasons why Mayo grads tend to stay in a hospital that is either Mayo Clinic or affiliated with the Mayo Clinic after training


As a cardiologist I dont understand why Mayo orients its echo very differently.
 
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