Mr. Steven Salzberg looking down on O.D.s

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I didn't know I'd be getting both my medical DO degree and doctor of optometry degree OD when I graduate.
 
that's the thing! he writes an article acting like he know what's up, but then right from the start he starts calling DOs O.D.s.

it's hard to take a person seriously after he makes such a mistake.
 
Last edited:
The author is an idiot. First he repeatedly called the degree an O.D. degree. That right their is enough to show that everything else he says in the article has no basis and is his mere opinion. He obviously did very little research on the subject. One of the commenters at the end noted that MDs were founded on blood letting. That doesn't make me reject MDs. Early medicine was weird and has obviously changed significantly since A.T. Still's time. Sure he may have had some crazy ideas but OMM works. Osteopathic medicine is just a different philosophy from allopathic medicine with the same goal in mind- Human Health. I've had both MD and DO doctors and they both are incredible at what they do. So you can't judge a doctor by their title. For a man with degrees from Yale and Harvard, its surprising how uniformed the author is.
 
I've often wondered why I have to learn all this renal physiology to prescribe eyeglasses. Wait, so that's not what I'm going to school for?

This guy forgets the first rule of internet posting: Make doubly sure you get your facts right before you post something ragging on people. If you're that spectacularly wrong with one thing, people will stop listening to you.

On one hand, Joe Mercola (and others like Sherri Tenpenny) really, really piss me off. That I get to be associated with quacks on account of a shared degree is very frustrating, especially since they're some of the loudest DO's in public forums. If they were the only DO's I knew about, I wouldn't have a great view of DO's, either.

And this article misses the point about who's a good doc and who's a bad one. From Atul Gawande's books, it's not that there are a small number of docs who get accused of malpractice over and over (because they're bad docs). They're more spread out than that because, well, stuff happens. Just because you go to an Ivy league school versus Cheap State University doesn't make you a better doc, just as DO vs. MD makes less difference than who you are.

So yeah, I vote for him starting off with a misguided premise, and carrying through with several transposition errors and erroneous conclusions. Well done, Forbes magazine.
 
I'm sure he'll be interested in the credentials of the doctor treating him or a loved one during an emergent situation. 35% of the group of physicians at our emergency department are DOs. In other words, they are optometrists that can perform bedside thoracotomies. Believe me, at this ED, they have. But not one has ever offered me or a patient a back massage. Lousy DOs!

😉
 
He mentions both "O.D." and "DOs" in the article. It probably was some auto-correct feature that got overlooked when he published the article. I agree with his points, especially that the face of osteopathic medicine to the public are "physicians" like Joe Mercola.
 
Jesus, that was one of the most poorly researched, poorly edited, poorly written pieces I have ever read on the internet. I've seriously read myspace 'about me' editorials that were more coherent than that disjointed mess. Wow. Does this ass consider himself a journalist? I can't imagine anyone would take this 'article' seriously, but it's still full of super irritating misconceptions, non-sequiturs, and blatant misinformation. Does anyone else want to respond/forward it to the AOA for a rebuttal, etc??? I'm absurdly busy and really don't have time to tackle this issue atm.
 
UPDATE:

So I don't know if anyone read the commentary section, but every post gives this guy a big 'wtf' and asks why this article is so awful, where he's pulling this from, why he's quoting A.T. Still from 1874 in an article in 2010, etc. I've decided to write my own reply in the commentary section, inform the AOA (and get their standard response in there), and also see what I can do to contact this guy directly and try to get a rebuttal put up on the forbes blogs. Don't know if anyone cares, has suggestions, would like to do the same, etc, but this just bugs me. Probably won't get on it until late this weekend or early next week though.
 
dangit said:
http://blogs.forbes.com/sciencebiz/2010/10/27/osteopaths-versus-doctors/

just venting... this article makes me mad/frustrated/etc

what do you guys think? does he have a valid point or am i pissing smoke out of nothing
Click to expand...
cookie-monster-wtf-is-this.jpg
 
dangit said:
http://blogs.forbes.com/sciencebiz/2010/10/27/osteopaths-versus-doctors/

just venting... this article makes me mad/frustrated/etc

what do you guys think? does he have a valid point or am i pissing smoke out of nothing
Click to expand...

You ARE pissing smoke out of nothing (whatever that means). You are physician or soon will be, but will never be able to get reimbursed from Medicare or any insurance company for time and energy spent getting emotional and responding to idiots like Steve "The Co**sucker" Salzberg.

Focus on your craft and your patients and the rest will fall in place.
 
goooooober said:
You ARE pissing smoke out of nothing (whatever that means). You are physician or soon will be, but will never be able to get reimbursed from Medicare or any insurance company for time and energy spent getting emotional and responding to idiots like Steve "The Co**sucker" Salzberg.
Click to expand...

1. Wow

goooooober said:
Focus on your craft and your patients and the rest will fall in place.
Click to expand...

I agree in a certain sense, but false information like this needs to be corrected at the source in a coherent, logical, non-threatening manner. Blog posts stay on the internet forever, and there is no reason to let this one slide by and influence people for god knows how many years to come.
 
"Thus was born osteopathic manipulative therapy (OMT), a practice that has virtually no scientific basis and that is similar in many ways to chiropractic...On the other hand (again), a growing number of maintstream medical schools offer training in “integrative” medicine, the latest marketing term used to disguise pseudoscience in the guise of real science. Those medical schools – including the one at my own University of Maryland – have some explaining to do as well."

Once Maryland explains itself to a Ph.D employee about it's use of this awful "integrative medicine" technique, he should move on to finding out why his alma mater is teaching CME courses in OMT. Surely a school that offers this quack, voodoo science, cannot grant a valid doctoral degree, right?

Preaching to the choir here, but this guy is a clown, to put it nicely.
 
Shocking really...Forbes (powered elite magazine) making idiotic comments blasting the competition again.. Man, it sure is a good thing the AMA is seeking to eliminate "strife" between D.O.'s and M.D.'s. Proof positive that there are people in all levels of society who will look you in the eye and then stab you in the stomach.. Best to keep the professional organizations at an arms length..
 
I previously wrote, "Once Maryland explains itself to a Ph.D employee about it's use of this awful "integrative medicine" technique, he should move on to finding out why his alma mater is teaching CME courses in OMT. Surely a school that offers this quack, voodoo science, cannot grant a valid doctoral degree, right?"

I e-mailed Dr. Salzberg on this topic, among other things, and he said yes, it does cheapen all Harvard degrees and they should stop it.
 
painmd87 said:
I previously wrote, "Once Maryland explains itself to a Ph.D employee about it's use of this awful "integrative medicine" technique, he should move on to finding out why his alma mater is teaching CME courses in OMT. Surely a school that offers this quack, voodoo science, cannot grant a valid doctoral degree, right?"

I e-mailed Dr. Salzberg on this topic, among other things, and he said yes, it does cheapen all Harvard degrees and they should stop it.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry. Nobody with any real authority/power is going to pay serious attention to what this guy wrote.

I bet most of them won't be able to get past the fact that he mixed up DOs with ODs.
 
painmd87 said:
I previously wrote, "Once Maryland explains itself to a Ph.D employee about it's use of this awful "integrative medicine" technique, he should move on to finding out why his alma mater is teaching CME courses in OMT. Surely a school that offers this quack, voodoo science, cannot grant a valid doctoral degree, right?"

I e-mailed Dr. Salzberg on this topic, among other things, and he said yes, it does cheapen all Harvard degrees and they should stop it.
Click to expand...

He sounds very closed minded. Where did you get his email from?
 
People are ripping him to shreds (deservedly) in the commentary section. The hubris of this guy is impressive too. He clearly has set a misinformed opinion in stone, and doesn't feel the need to prove anything in his article, research the facts, present objective information, etc. I highly encourage everyone to keep posting on the commentary section (as I will do soon), emailing him, emailing forbes, etc. He really should be nailed for this.
 
I can not find the separate but equal quote, but that's quite a humerous quote if its actually on the AOA website.
 
The direction of this article was pretty obvious when you glance at the name: "Osteopath versus Doctors."

It is a real shame that Mr. Steven Salzberg wrote such a misinformed and biased piece of work.

Such prejudice is not welcome in today's medicine.
 
This is awesome! When I first saw this article, I really wanted to say something, but wasn't sure the best way to go about. Obviously, letting the AOA know was a place to start. So whoever informed the AOA has my props.

I'm glad that more people have taken a stand. I'm also glad that the AOA president, Dr. Karen Nichols was very quick to take action. I'm very proud to be a DO and to have the support of the AOA.

Btw, looks like Salzberg has apologized in the comment section. I'd rather see a formal apology letter posted on the internet.
 
Like you guys said, the guy essentially apologized to the AOA President (who wrote a very brief, but accurate and powerful response), and even if he still believes this crap about DOs, I don't think he'll be slapping together any articles like this again anytime soon. I really do still encourage everyone out there to write a response though.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Like you guys said, the guy essentially apologized to the AOA President (who wrote a very brief, but accurate and powerful response), and even if he still believes this crap about DOs, I don't think he'll be slapping together any articles like this again anytime soon. I really do still encourage everyone out there to write a response though.
Click to expand...

👍
 
Salzberg's pearl of wisdom: "When I'm looking for a doctor, I want someone who went to one of the best medical schools and received strictly science-based training. Colleges of osteopathic medicine do not fit the bill."

He's using the Forbes website to tell people to avoid DOs. He's calling for the marginalization of all DO schools.

Salzberg is an elitist and an ignorant bigot. What he wrote is an abomination and an insult. It must not go unchallenged.

The responses I've read so far are outstanding. However, everyone should chime in when you have time.

Newsweek issued an apology when they misidentified Richard Jadick's degree. We need to see a formal/real apology from Forbes for this outrageous insult.
 
Last edited:
fourthst said:
Salzberg's pearl of wisdom: "When I'm looking for a doctor, I want someone who went to one of the best medical schools and received strictly science-based training. Colleges of osteopathic medicine do not fit the bill."

He's using the Forbes website to tell people to avoid DOs. He's calling for the marginalization of all DO schools.

Salzberg is an elitist and an ignorant bigot. What he wrote is an abomination and an insult. It must not go unchallenged.

The responses I've read so far are outstanding. However, everyone should chime in when you have time.

Newsweek issued an apology when they misidentified Richard Jadick's degree. We need to see a formal/real apology from Forbes for this outrageous insult.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I think it would be worthwhile to send some emails to 'forbes' as well, and ask for some sort of retraction, official statement declaring their neturalty on the matter, etc.
 
Yes, Salzberg has replied to Dr. Nichols' letter, which he chose to bury among the comments - and which most casual readers will not bother to read.

We need Forbes to do something about the article itself. It must not be allowed to stand as written. We need a retraction and a real apology - something that readers can see right away.

Salzberg is smearing every DO school with what he wrote.

I suggest everyone here alert their school - professors, deans, president - about Salzberg's article and ask them to demand action from the editors. [Your profs and deans don't have to study like you do, they have more time. Ask them to send something to Forbes.]

There is strength in numbers.

P.S. The link to Salzberg's article is
http://blogs.forbes.com/sciencebiz/2010/10/27/osteopaths-versus-doctors/
 
What the hell was the impetus for this article anyway....were DOs in the news for something that made the so-called journalist write this? Seems like a very weird topic for him to talk about......

Anyone expect the AMA to say anything about this?
 
Well, he claims it is a blog post, not really an article. I too wonder what drove him to write something so condemning, but who knows.

What really drives me nuts is the extremely common and flawed argumentative structures he uses. For example, in his defense against some comments, he cites the part where he says that some DOs are better than MDs, only in that he changes what he says in his actual response to saying many DOs are good doctors.

I don't understand why he feels that stating a quick exception to his argument allows for full fledged generalization and assumption.
 
Part of me wants to feel indignant, yet part of me is convinced this is a poor attempt at trolling for hits.
 
DdrumbumD said:
Anyone expect the AMA to say anything about this?
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm too idealistic, but I sure wish more MDs might have posted in the comments section. All those defending DOs are DOs themselves, osteopathic students, a patient of a DO, and a few administrators who hire both MDs and DOs. Unfortunately, any MD reading that article has just stayed quiet and not posted a word of defense for their DO colleagues. I'd think reading an MD's rebuttal of the article would have been pretty powerful. I would have expected more MDs to speak out against it, but the silence from their side just saddens me.
 
I wouldn't have even heard about this article if the president of our class hadn't emailed the whole class.

Give it time. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, comes out of all this as more people read about it.
 
DdrumbumD said:
What the hell was the impetus for this article anyway....were DOs in the news for something that made the so-called journalist write this? Seems like a very weird topic for him to talk about......
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why this was posted to Forbes, but it originates from Steven Salzberg's personal blog, where he often writes about evolution denialism, pseudoscience, and anti-vaccine issues. Joe Mercola, the DO mentioned in his blog post, is an anti-vaccine nutcase who is a bad representative of osteopathic physicians. My best guess is that Prof. Salzberg extrapolated from the very bad example of Dr. Mercola.

He's actually removed the corresponding post from his personal blog, and I suspect he would do the same from the Forbes website if he was able.
 
I wonder if any DO's at the University of Maryland where Mr. Salzberg works, are doing anything about this "article"... Out of curiosity I went onto the University of Maryland website and picked three departments at random, Anesthesiology, Emergency Medicine and Internal Medicine, and lo and behold, there are DO's in all three.
 
Last edited:
Altruist said:
I'm not sure why this was posted to Forbes, but it originates from Steven Salzberg's personal blog, where he often writes about evolution denialism, pseudoscience, and anti-vaccine issues. Joe Mercola, the DO mentioned in his blog post, is an anti-vaccine nutcase who is a bad representative of osteopathic physicians. My best guess is that Prof. Salzberg extrapolated from the very bad example of Dr. Mercola.

He's actually removed the corresponding post from his personal blog, and I suspect he would do the same from the Forbes website if he was able.
Click to expand...

Looking into his blog, this seems to be the case. He's essentially critiquing and calling out anti-vaccine people but in this run, he decided to generalize an identifiable group. Seems like a common thing to do, but he made a big mistake with this one.
 
The typical Forbes subscriber is an investor or upper-level business type, not a practicing physician. Which may explain the scarcity of MD input.

Unfortunately, Forbes is a well-known and influential website. Salzberg's article is a piece of trash, but people (and decision-makers) will believe it because it's on Forbes.

Salzberg said he's not changing the article. We - DO students & faculty - need to engage his editors. That article has to go.
 
Maybe his DO colleagues need to see what he wrote as well...
 
Here I am burning the midnight oil busting my ass trying to get my DO and maybe make a living (eventually). I'm pissed off. Salzberg is an idiot. He didn't even check Wikipedia before he wrote all that crap. Nothing but outright lies and malicious insinuations. Why is he attacking us like that all of a sudden? Does anyone know?
 
Last edited:
DdrumbumD said:
What the hell was the impetus for this article anyway....were DOs in the news for something that made the so-called journalist write this? Seems like a very weird topic for him to talk about......

Anyone expect the AMA to say anything about this?
Click to expand...

Per his e-mail response to me, he had a "DO friend" who was "begging" him to write a comparison of MDs and DOs.

And this is how it turned out.

Some way to treat your friends!
 
Salzberg is a shameless liar. So his imaginary friend went to a DO school but didn't know the difference between an MD and DO, and begged him: "PLEASE, PLEASE, Steve, would you PLEASE write a long defamatory article full of garbage and old stereotypes to tell people I was a flunky who wasn't good enough for med school? Would you PLEASE put the article on Forbes magazine to tell the whole world my so-called doctor degree is not science-based? PLEASE, Steve, I beg you, PLEASE tell people to stay away from me and everyone with a DO! PLEASE tell people I'm just a wannabe doctor and people shouldn't trust me with their personal safety! PLEASE tell everyone not to hire me. Thanks, Steve, for taking food out of my mouth. You're a great pal."

Salzberg's wet dream is to shut down DO schools. He's a jerk with a poison pen, and he's using a prestigious publication (Forbes) and his Harvard-Yale pedigree (is it in computer science?) to wage his little jihad against DOs. Anyone notice how he warned DOs to be COURTEOUS to him in the comments??? Did he extend any courtesy to DOs in his broad condemnation of an entire profession?
 
I think this is as close to an apology as we're going to get:

http://blogs.forbes.com/sciencebiz/2010/10/29/second-thoughts-on-osteopathic-medicine/

although he definitely spoils the whole mood of the article at the end of it:
"In the comments to my previous post, many of them apparently written by D.O.s or by students in D.O. programs, there was an element of hostility towards M.D.s (or towards medical schools offering M.D.s) that I found surprising. I counted over 30 references to M.D.'s as allopaths, which is a term that M.D.s themselves do not use, and that many regard as pejorative." The same thing could be said about using the word "osteopath," but he insisted on using it throughout his blog entry...
 
Well, he apparently wrote a follow-up blog, which had a hint of remorse and correction, but also stunk of trying to reverse the tides back on DOs. This guy seems to basically read a few web pages, magazine rankings, and comments section off his own blog and spouts off the first thing that comes into his head. Pretty pathetic.
 
Buckeye4life said:
Well, he apparently wrote a follow-up blog, which had a hint of remorse and correction, but also stunk of trying to reverse the tides back on DOs. This guy seems to basically read a few web pages, magazine rankings, and comments section off his own blog and spouts off the first thing that comes into his head. Pretty pathetic.
Click to expand...

It's a lot better than his first post. He admitted his mistake, stating the facts while expressing an opinion based on a concrete observation. The comments section clarify the reason for the use of "allopath".

I don't think an apology is necessary. If he were really closed minded he would have stuck to his guns with the first article. instead, he spent some time reading the comments section (while hopefully using his own sources to verify) and revised his view of the DO degree.

There's nothing pathetic to getting called out and then admitting your mistakes. He's entitled to his opinion, I think the issue was that his original one wasn't based on any factual background or observation.
 
I think though that for all the heat this guy is taking, it is still just a symptom of lack of promotion for over 100 years on the part of DOs. Granted the profession has come a long way, but just like any product or service, you have to advertise and not just on facebook or youtube. Even if DOs are equal to MDs, public perception about credibility is huge, especially in our current internet savy patient population. Basically, for all the sacrifice, responsibility, and training that DOs go through, I am getting tired of the constant "DO tax." It becomes a little demoralizing after awhile, in a profession where victories are few and far between. Either the AOA needs to step up their lobbying and advertising, or DOs need to be able to legally use designations more in line with public awareness.
 
I think MD should not be referred to as allopaths. We are simply MD. No more, no less.
 
thepoopologist said:
There's nothing pathetic to getting called out and then admitting your mistakes. He's entitled to his opinion, I think the issue was that his original one wasn't based on any factual background or observation.
Click to expand...

Admitting your mistakes is not pathetic, but not doing serious homework to remediate your mistakes is.
 
ProtossCarrier said:
I think MD should not be referred to as allopaths. We are simply MD. No more, no less.
Click to expand...

I've never heard anyone refer to an MD as an allopath ... ever. The reason why so many people brought it up is because he used the term 'osteopath' so many times in the article that people in the commentary section had to essentially use 'allopath' just to differentiate. Additionally, I don't think any US trained DO should be referred to as an osteopath. It's wildly unrepresentative of what we do.

In response to his apology ...

It probably is the best we are going to get, and I'm actually pretty pleased to see the response the initial post received from the DO community. I think he thought he could slap up some slanderous BS, and that DOs were too below the entire situation to care/comment ... but he was clearly wrong. Frankly, I think his apology is still a bit more on the 'wow, I got kicked in the ass and shouldn't have done that,' side than it is on the 'you're right ... I didn't research and jumped to a bunch of incoherent, pre-conceived notions stemming from my personal opinions. I'll research the issue and approach it differently next time,' sort of thing. Kind of like when a little kid does something wrong and they tell you they're 'sorry' just because they want to go back to whatever it was they were doing. I think the best thing we can do at this point is continue expressing concerns and explaining the facts on both posts. This is what's going to make the biggest difference in the long run. Hell, maybe if enough response goes out, Forbes may even have a talk with him about the issue. Additionally, I think it would be awesome to some how bring up to him the DOs that work at Maryland or even try to get contacts for them and forward the original article.

Either way ... the guy was owned, and he knows he was wrong. Whether he's too wrapped up in his own ego or not to fully admit that, everyone who say that response understands the situation.
 
meliora27 said:
I wonder if any DO's at the University of Maryland where Mr. Salzberg works, are doing anything about this "article"... Out of curiosity I went onto the University of Maryland website and picked three departments at random, Anesthesiology, Emergency Medicine and Internal Medicine, and lo and behold, there are DO's in all three.
Click to expand...

Don't forget their surgery department.
 
elftown said:
AOA President Karen J. Nichols, DO, responds on behalf of the AOA to "Forbes" article, "Osteopaths vs. Doctors."

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/news-and-publications/blogs/presidents-blog/default.aspx
Click to expand...

It is wonderful to see how the AOA continues to dodge the big issues facing osteopaths to engage some fool who is irrelevant.

Instead of wasting time adderssing this bullshi*, Karen J. Nichols needs to demand that all osteopathic schools lower tuition or at least not increase it, demand great hospital based rotations for all osteopathic students, and work to expand residencies and fellowships in all specialties to accommodate our grads.

Wake up Karen and do your REAL job.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
How to turn down acceptance in this situation?
Replies
4
Views
1K
AlbinoHawk DO
AlbinoHawk DO
P
Hello! I'm starting at NYITCOM, and I'm looking to see if anyone needs a housemate
Replies
2
Views
397
paulj
P
I
Dismissal from school, Looking for next steps
Replies
8
Views
4K
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
T
I guess everyone is on reddit.
Replies
17
Views
4K
EEqualsRx2
EEqualsRx2
MonsterGod
How did you guys decide on your specialty?
Replies
10
Views
2K
AlbinoHawk DO
AlbinoHawk DO
Top