MA/MS MS or MA or MED in ABA!?!?

[LucasW]

Hello,

I just created an account on these forums because this seems like the only place that may be able to give me a decent answer. I am finishing up my BA in Finance and I am going to pivot into a Masters program in Applied Behavior Analysis. My daughter has Autism and this is a field that I am learning a lot about and I am interested and motivated about. With that being said which is the better degree option and does it make a difference? I would like to do some teaching possibly with a school or online program in the field of ABA whether it be a BA or Masters program. But I want to get involved in the application side of ABA and be a BCBA and work directly with children with Autism and other disorders or mental issues in a therapy setting.

So which degree type should I go after?

Second Part questions

Is ABA a degree that is moving more towards a PhD or Lawyer where, where you got your degree maters in getting a job either at a place that provides therapies or school teaching? Also, is getting an online degree in this field looked down upon at all?

I have been doing research and two schools are supposedly in the top 10 in Online ABA programs... one is Drexel which is a MS in ABA and the other is Arizona State University which offers a MED with a focus in ABA....

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[Therapist4Chnge]

Online training is not recommended for any type of intervention-based training. For ABA (which I consider in a similar area)...it makes even less sense given the material being taught.

 

[LucasW]

That is what I was worried about. But like I said my daughter has Autism and has been in ABA therapy since she was 2. And I was looking at seeing if I can "intern" with the BCBA during my course work this way I can ask questions and get hands on knowledge on how ABA is being done and how it can be done better etc.

I am in the military and I just can't be in person for a degree... I could start at lets say CSU (Colorado state university) but if I move to a new location on military orders... now what do I do?

 

[PsyDr]

And I was looking at seeing if I can "intern" with the BCBA during my course work this way I can ask questions and get hands I am in the military and I just can't be in person for a degree... I could start at lets say CSU (Colorado state university) but if I move to a new location on military orders... now what do I do?

That's like asking, "I'm in a committed monogamous relationship. How can I date 20 other women and it turn out alright?". Yoi can't. You gotta pick your role.

You might want to look into the uniform health service school.

 

[LucasW]

I am not sure I see or understand your point. I will look into the health service school as I have never heard of it before. I am trying to go to one single school but my only options "real" options are online degree programs. One person so far has said that it isn't a good idea. But I don't have many options unless someone knows of others like you PSYDR. I will look into that and see.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think the point that some are trying to make is that online schools are expensive and they will hinder your career options. This is a field, in general, in which interpersonal interaction and mentorship are key. You can't get that online. Many places will not even consider those degrees for positions.

 

[LucasW]

even if I get it from Drexel or Arizona State? When you get an online degree from those schools does it say that? MS in ABA from Arizona State University (online) ?

 

[WisNeuro]

Generally, the niche areas (neuro, ABA, trauma, etc) are relatively small worlds. We know which programs are which, who offer what. We know which ones are good and which ones are not. Not saying it'll be impossible if you do it, just that it will be much harder than if you took another route.

 

[LucasW]

what are some other options for an Applied Behavior Analysis degree work? In my research I have seen MS, MA, and MED degree's with focuses on ABA. In my research it has said that Drexel was ranked 3rd in Online MS in ABA.... and ASU was 8th with a MED with a focus on ABA.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'd ask @ClinicalABA , but in general, stay away from online schools. Like the plague.

 

[PsyDr]

I am not sure I see or understand your point. I will look into the health service school as I have never heard of it before. I am trying to go to one single school but my only options "real" options are online degree programs. One person so far has said that it isn't a good idea. But I don't have many options unless someone knows of others like you PSYDR. I will look into that and see.

My point is that there are only so many roles can take on. You can't learn an interpersonal process like ABA therapy online. You can either choose to be an army guy, or a student. You can choose to be a parent learning to help their child, or a student learning how the field works from a technical standpoint. You can't do it all.

 

[LucasW]

I understand that PSYDR. Some people don't exactly have the luxury to stop their lives to attain a MS or PhD.... has no one ever worked a job and got a degree at the same time? or is that not allowed in your mind?

I understand now that for a degree like this the best route is going to be in person course. There are state colleges around where I am currently stationed in the Air Force, not exactly an "Army guy". So there is a possibility I can take classes but that is if they have an ABA program. So I will have to do some looking into that.

If they do have ABA it is seeming like a MS in ABA in the route to go.

 

[PsyDr]

I understand that PSYDR. Some people don't exactly have the luxury to stop their lives to attain a MS or PhD.... has no one ever worked a job and got a degree at the same time? or is that not allowed in your mind?

I understand now that for a degree like this the best route is going to be in person course. There are state colleges around where I am currently stationed in the Air Force, not exactly an "Army guy". So there is a possibility I can take classes but that is if they have an ABA program. So I will have to do some looking into that.

If they do have ABA it is seeming like a MS in ABA in the route to go.

Everyone who went to a respected psychology phd or psyd program did give up working for their education. I doubt I would call it a luxury. And there are rules about work in most programs student handbooks.

Those that gave up an income to become psychologists made a choice, because it was the requirement of the job.

But you if being aggressive to someone who is helping you makes you feel like a better person, have at it.

 

[LucasW]

you were the one who was talking down to me like a peon to begin with. The audacity that I wouldn't give up work to get a degree. Stating that I had to choose either being a parent or attain degree. Calling me an "army guy" like I am some *****. Calling someone in the military no matter what branch an "army guy" is insulting.

I am not sure how much overlap getting a degree in Psychology and Applied Behavior Analysis has. I do not know if I am just not purvey to the lengths that it take to attain an ABA degree. But I did not expect it to be on the level of a doctor, physiologist, neuro, and trauma....

I really didn't expect ABA to be in the same sentence as neuro and trauma...

 

[PsyDr]

Huh. So conflating masters level stuff on the doctoral forum is okay, but conflating branches of service is an insult. Got it.

 

[LucasW]

This was the closest forum I could find that would be able to help inform me on what decisions to make. Also, you all have to go through a Masters in order to get a Doctorate so I did not see an issue with asking a lower level question than what this forum section could provide. Now if I was in a Masters forum section asking doctorate level questions I could see an issue.

I don't know why but your first and original comment seemed very condescending to me. I am trying to find information in a field where it seems there is not much information on the internet about which degree types are the best to attain in order to have a career etc. Applied Behavior Analysis when it comes to Autism applications is a new field and not many schools offer programs with ABA. I see a lot of education degree's with ASD specializations or special education specializations.

And it wasn't conflating branches that was rude to me it was the term you used "army guy".... as if I were to just call you some Psychologist guy, you can either just be a psychologist guy or be a parent.

 

[PsyDr]

This was the closest forum I could find that would be able to help inform me on what decisions to make. Also, you all have to go through a Masters in order to get a Doctorate so I did not see an issue with asking a lower level question than what this forum section could provide. Now if I was in a Masters forum section asking doctorate level questions I could see an issue.

I don't know why but your first and original comment seemed very condescending to me. I am trying to find information in a field where it seems there is not much information on the internet about which degree types are the best to attain in order to have a career etc. Applied Behavior Analysis when it comes to Autism applications is a new field and not many schools offer programs with ABA. I see a lot of education degree's with ASD specializations or special education specializations.

And it wasn't conflating branches that was rude to me it was the term you used "army guy".... as if I were to just call you some Psychologist guy, you can either just be a psychologist guy or be a parent.

By that logic what rank do you immediately go to any time you have a question because you have to go through a bunch of commissioned ranks before that rank?

I find it condescending to have someone ignoring the terms of service and not doing the most basic of searches before asking questions. So we have something in common.

If you are reacting to the parenting thing:

1) you cannot learn how to practice by training on your own family members both for ethical reasons and because one needs to maintain an objective stance. You can like it or not. But there's a reason we take coursework and training. There is hopefully a difference in learning how to approach your child (whom I hope you love dearly), and applying the primack principle in a chaining to a parent who is so stressed they cry when they hit the parking lot.

2) there are only 24 hrs in a day. You can fill them how you like. But you can't fit 30hrs of responsibility into 24. If your job requires 12, you sleep 8, and commit to family stuff for 3, that's a choice. If you commit to 12hrs/day to a doctoral program, that's a choice. There are dozens of questions posited here where people are unwilling to give up one role to get another. Some don't want to give up a geographical role. Etc etc etc. that doesn't change what the requirements are.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Some people don't exactly have the luxury to stop their lives to attain a MS or PhD.... has no one ever worked a job and got a degree at the same time? or is that not allowed in your mind?

The reality of the psychology field, schooling at the doctoral level:

1. Working part-time during classes is very difficult and full-time is not realistic.
2. Online training is not respected and not something I can see someone recommending as a viable option. I know online training while in the military is very common, but it is not viewed as an option within the field of psychology, similar to how ppl can't attend medical school online.
3. Relocation is almost always required for a program and internship and sometimes/often for fellowship.
4. Pay is low for internship ($25k) and a bit better for post-doc ($35k-$50k).

With that information in mind, the responses you have received are accurate.

In regard to MA/MS/MEd in related fields (ABA, MHC, SW):

1. There can be more flexibility (e.g. evening classes), but it is program specific.
2. Online is still not recommended.
3. Relocation may or may not be required.
4. Internship/accruing post-degree hours can often take 2-3 years at low pay and you may have to pay for supervision.

Neither path is easy nor can everyone commit to all that is needed to complete the training, whether that is relocation, time required, etc.

 

[LucasW]

I can see your point PSYDR but you made it seem like it was one choice or the other not that in order to attain a Masters I would have to lose time in one area that I may currently be unable to do. Not a "choice" but the fact that I am in the military I do not have the time to split between that many things and be good at what I am trying to learn. I 100% understand that fact and see that more so now. I do know that you cannot "practice" on your children. My motivation is my daughter not my motivation is my daughter and I can "practice on her". It would help me to understand a little bit more of how to help her calm down during times of stress though which is something that I hope every parent can learn and utilize.

I did do a lot of searching online for answers to my questions and have not found much. The main basis was which degree type was best MS/MA/MED.... and if online schooling is viable. I could not find anything about Applied Behavior Analysis and which degree options are best for a career which ones would be good if I wanted to get a degree and be a teacher in the ABA field.

I am very new to this and I saw someone on this forum asked a similar question to mine and got some solid answers and I was hoping for the same.

I don't know how much a psychology Masters and a ABA masters degree overlaps in time commitment, online or in person coursework etc. I am not yet talking about doctorate level work which is where is seems everyone was going. I understand I am on a PhD forum section but was hoping to be enlightened a bit more on the Masters side... and maybe when I was out of the military I would attain my PhD.

Is it not typical for someone to have a job in their Masters field and be working towards their PhD in the same field or related field?

 

[LucasW]

is there a forum that has BCBA therapist's that you all are aware of that has Master's level and PhD level BCBA's? that would better be suited to answer these questions.

I did some general searches and could not find any forums that had professionals on it... mainly very general forums about autism etc.

 

[LucasW]

does getting an online Masters in Education with a focus on Autism Spectrum Disorder have an astigmatism to it?

 

[WisNeuro]

An online degree in any mental health field has a stigma attached to it. I've never seen one offered an invite to interview for any internship/postdoc/job search that I have been involved in.

 

[LucasW]

What about for education degrees and classroom work?

 

[LucasW]

If being an ABA wasn't going to work out I enjoy teaching and was looking at a Masters in Education with a focus in special needs (ASD or otherwise)

 

[MAClinician]

If being an ABA wasn't going to work out I enjoy teaching and was looking at a Masters in Education with a focus in special needs (ASD or otherwise)

ABA is generally provided in either schools (public or specialized residential schools) or outpatient settings. Each state board of education determines how teachers get certified and what the requirements (degree type, degree field, experience, etc). Some states may require a degree in ABA while other states may allow a masters with concentration or specialized coursework in ABA. Likewise, each state will also have a licensure board for outpatient services, social work or mental health counseling. The state board determines requirements for licensing. Some states license BCBA providers and others do not. ABA in outpatient setting is generally covered by health insurance (at least as long as ACA remains in place). Some insurance companies may have different requirements for who can provide the service. So there is really no "one solid answer" as to if you should get ABA degree or MA/MS/MEd because it will likely depend on what state and setting you wish to work in.

How much longer are you in the military for and are you planning to re-enlist? If you will be out in a year or two it makes sense to wait before starting a masters program if you think you will get moved to a new assignment or base. Use this time to better understand your child's diagnosis. Children with autism see the world differently than neurotypical kids do. They may have challenging behaviors. They react and respond in ways that may seem overwhelming. They are generally not happy with changes in routine. Take advantage of any services available to your daughter and family, connect with other parents who are dealing with this, ask questions of your child's provider. To be an effective ABA provider, you need to understand autism and how it impacts the individual. Talk to the BCBAs that work with your kid and ask how they got the position, what degree they have, etc.

ABA is considered a "niche" because the prevalence rate is not very high and it is specialized. Therefore the demand is different than for a child with low IQ or depression or something. Good luck

 

[singasongofjoy]

Helpful place to start would be to see what the requirements are in the state in which you'd hope to practice. There are probably also state BCBA / ABA organizations. They might be able to better help you see what options people who are currently workign in your state took in order to get to where they are now. As smoene else mentioned above requirements can be quite different from state to state so there might be various ways of getting there. You can also get some experience in a setting that provides ABA type services without being BCBA credentialed to see if it's the type of thing you would enjoy, such as at early intervention programs (e.g., in the past I've worked at places where you're supervised by a BCBA but you could have college students or college graduates doing the 1:1 work with the kids). Or you may get some of this experience learning along with your child if they are involved with ABA services - be as involved as you can. I do know that after certain states mandated that insurance cover a certain amount of ABA services, lots of ABA places started popping up all over the place. I know some of those folks at a couple of the ABA centers that opened in the state I was in at the time did the online thing where an in-person local supervision and documentation by BCBA-D was required. Can't speak to the quality of their services though since I didn't follow any kids who started getting services there for very long before I left- but I don't think you can get credentialed in any state without a fair amount of supervised practice. The quality of that local supervision if you're doing an online program may vary widely though which is why people generally don't recommend online programs. If you're going to put time and energy into education you want to be assured you'll get the quality and not just the degree. I def think it's good to get more experience and info from current, local providers before deciding exactly what you want to do and how best to get there given your current location and situation.

 

[ClinicalABA]

A few answers/comments-

• To be eligible for the BCBA credential, you'll need a graduate degree (any type masters or doctorate) in psychology, education, or behavior analysis. Must be from an accredited institution.
• You'll also need to complete specific coursework in ABA. This can be done in the process of earning your graduate degree, or afterwards. Best bet is to do all this through a BACB verified course sequence (see BACB.com for a list)
• There's not the same level of stigma with online courses as you might see for doctoral psych programs. Demand for BCBAs, particularly in rural areas/states is high, and couldn't be met without online or hybrid training options (it's not being met, even with them). That said, quality of training varies. BCBA exam pass rates for programs are available on BACB website. Be wary of sites with sub-80% pass rates.
• You'll need supervision (number of hours varies from 750-1500, depending on type of fieldwork and amount/nature of supervision). You would not be able to do these hours with your own child, nor with a BCBA who works with your family, even if you're working with a non-related child. You can begin accruing supervision hours as soon as you begin your ABA coursework
• I don't see the field moving to doctoral level clinicians anytime soon. There is a move to state level licensure, which may have requirements different from the BACB's. in my state (MA) you can actually get credentialed and work as a licensed applied behavior analyst (LABA) even if you don't have the BCBA (though meeting LABA requirements would meeting BCBA requirements). Most non-BCBA but LABA people I know are just waiting to pass the BCBA exam.
• BCBA requirements get more stringent with each revision (every 1-2 years). Keep abreast of changes and pending changes (on BACB website) to be sure that you're training meets the standards that will be in place when you start AND when you finish your training and supervised experience.
• State ABA organizations can be good resources. You may find some local guidance through Colorado ABA (COABA.org).

Coincidently, I just got back yesterday the annual ABA international conference in Denver. There's definitely some agencies with need in that area.

 

[LucasW]

I am currently stationed in Colorado Springs just an hour south of Denver. I am currently at my 8 year mark and I am going to do 20 years. Having to fulfill 750-1500 hours with supervision would take me the rest of my career... Would going the Masters in Education with a focus in Autism have similar requirements? this degree doesn't seem to be aiming for BCBA certification or anything like that but I know once I do get the degree as you mentioned I can then push for a credential in certain specialties.

 

[psych.meout]

I am currently stationed in Colorado Springs just an hour south of Denver. I am currently at my 8 year mark and I am going to do 20 years. Having to fulfill 750-1500 hours with supervision would take me the rest of my career... Would going the Masters in Education with a focus in Autism have similar requirements? this degree doesn't seem to be aiming for BCBA certification or anything like that but I know once I do get the degree as you mentioned I can then push for a credential in certain specialties.

I'm confused. If you're going to be active duty for another 12 years, why the rush to go to grad school for ABA? Are you hoping to transition from enlisted to officer?

 

[LucasW]

Yes and when I make the transition to officer it is kind of expected that we begin our masters programs.

 

[erg923]

Yes and when I make the transition to officer it is kind of expected that we begin our masters programs.

But you can't do this job for another 12 years? If so, how expect to be competitive on the job market if you haven't actually ever done the job in past 12 years? Skill (and knowledge) atrophy in applied abs quickly advancing fields is a real thing.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I am currently stationed in Colorado Springs just an hour south of Denver. I am currently at my 8 year mark and I am going to do 20 years. Having to fulfill 750-1500 hours with supervision would take me the rest of my career... Would going the Masters in Education with a focus in Autism have similar requirements? this degree doesn't seem to be aiming for BCBA certification or anything like that but I know once I do get the degree as you mentioned I can then push for a credential in certain specialties.

If you want to do/teach ABA and do it well/ethically, it'll be tough without BCBA or equivalent level training. There really aren't any appropriate backdoors or shortcuts. In my experience, students typically work 20-40 hours per week in the field while they are completing their ABA coursework. There are time limits on accruing hours as well (they can't be from more than a five year period of time). The program I teach at actually requires current and maintained employment in an appropriate setting with a BACB qualified supervisor as a condition of acceptance and continuation. Didactics are meant to supplement and inform concurrent supervised clinical experiences. If you currently have a full time job in another field, I don't see how you'd be able meet the training and supervision requirements. You can work with children with ASD with other degrees/credentials (e.g., special education; speech; occupational therapy; psychology), but there will be similar (or higher) training/experience requirements. Doing an online Non-ABA masters now will not really prepare you to teach ABA, and it is unlikely to qualify you for any ABA related credentialling. Between their ABA day jobs and evening classes, student in my program are generally spending 60-70 hours per week between work and class requirements, including completing assignments on weekends. It's a lot of work.

 

[singasongofjoy]

This is perhaps my ignorance of how being a career military person works, but how would a masters in ABA enhance your day to day work/duties? Are you looking to have an additional (seemingly quite unrelated I would think) job on the side in addition to your current duties? Unless you're between deployments, doesn't a military career keep you pretty busy during normal working hours? I guess I'm just confused about why you are interested in pursuing an ABA-related degree, over just pursuing the things that seem of interest/relevant to your daughter specifically, which you could do more effectively via other avenues.

 

[LucasW]

Well knowing now that an ABA requires that much work along side supervisions etc then it is something I cannot complete during my off time. I have two things I would LIKE to do one was ABA and the other was teach. I have taught offensive and defensive space control and system specific training and teaching and I enjoy it a lot. I know to get a degree in education it has similar requirements like being a student teacher etc... so idk if that is even possible. I guess my back up to my back up plan would be to get a Masters in A Finance related field. My BA is in Finance with a minor in Financial Management....

It seams like most Masters programs I look had have tons of "work" hours I have to complete as well. I would be able to split time and do that on weekends and week nights but if I was expected to be a teachers aid even 10 hours a week I probably wouldn't be able to do that. I work 7-4 weekends and holidays off. Deployments within 4 months of being notified and then need time to accomplish the homework, understand it, and then turn around and apply it as an aid or supervised time for even more hours would be a lot.

 

[averroesiaw]

First and foremost, I hope I am not too late and you have not already been discouraged out of joining the ABA field.
I put attending medical school on hold because I realized the magnitude of need for medical Professionals equipped with treating the developmentally and intellectually disabled population. 1 in 68 births in the US result in a human born with ASD, this population is going to increase to 500k ppl in the nation with ASD in a couple of years. It's not a mumbo jumbo disability, it's effing real and its medical.Doctors must be equipped to treat individuals with severe behavioral complications because one way to ease their lifestyle is to ease their physiological and neurological health. because in this population, either or tells shows a lot about the other. And, this is a population that is over medicated and sedated. It's sad.

Applied Behavior Analysis is a natural science which employs the scientific method wholeheartedly. Its a very young field (1960s) and it's still misunderstood by the scientific community at large, including medical doctors and lay people. It is a field that can be distorted to sound like pseudoscience by service providers who lack scientific reasoning or were trained poorly and by that I mean, trained without being able to apply basic research principles to their behavior interventions (i.e. They wasted money On a fast track program from a BS school and aren't scientific in their logic).

I am a graduate student at Northeastern Bouve College of Health Sciences in Boston and it is a distance learning Master's of Science degree-- I am in California. It's not an "online accreditation" because this university has been offering this degree for over two decades. my practicum hours and research are based off a tag team the university has with other institutions offering applied research in Behavior Analysis in California. They have the same with other states. Every ABA program
That youcome across from a
Major university ( Drexel, FIT, u of Cincinnati, Simmons, Northeastern) ARE LEGIT AND NOT "ONLINE" DEGREES.
Don't be discouraged by tution. If you're distance learning it's cheaper Bc you're not using the university amenities. My degree is costing me $20k for 2 yrs and my return of investment is HIGH.

You should absolutely pursue your MS in ABA. It is fully do-able while you're in service to our country. I am a full time employee, spouse and puppy parent. You can complete your practicum hours by taking advanced graduate courses and supplementing with hands-on work. My school offers this. Meaning, one semester (750hrs) you can take an intensive course (online) and the next you can take as clinical work. As a graduate student in ABA you'd be offered mid management positions at Behavior health clinics and making an average $19-$25 an hour. It's not much but, it will keep you afloat for 750 hours, which is 6 months full time. DO ABLE.

Don't be discouraged. If BCBA is aiming too high because it's a Masters degree, you can attain an BCaBA certification with a bachelors. It's an "assistant" position. Much like a PA is to an MD. And they still make good money and have the potential to be great practitioners or scientists.

Parents are the strongest advocates for patients of ASD and, we need more clinicians fully aware of the necessity for practitioners who are specialized in Behavior Analysis.