MS4 Dismissed - Please Help

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sloop said:
Get a lawyer. It may not help but it is your best course of action.
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I would argue groveling is the best course of action. Lawyers can sometimes help when you have a case that they didn't follow due process (or whatever), but that doesn't apply here if he's admitting that he did, in fact, cheat. Once you bring a lawyer in in a case like this it shifts the school into a defensive posture and ends your hope of a merciful reprieve.

What you want to do is build the case that they should take pity on you. You want professors who know you to speak to your good character and how this was something that was clearly a fluke. Seriously, go and ask them to speak on your behalf like you were asking for a letter of recommendation. You also want to go to the administration with a plan of remediation for your character that is sufficiently self flagellating that they actually believe it, with a repeated year and hundred or thousands of hours of community service. You want to go to your dean and ask, sincerely and with tears in your eyes, if there is any way you can make this better. The only way out of this is through your administration's sufferance, everything should focus on that.
 
Two people were thrown out of my class for cheating. They were dating. There was a real honor code, so they knew the risk and did it anyway. I doubt they're physicians.
This may be the only time the Caribbean might be the answer. I cannot imagine any US medical school giving you any chance.
A lawyer will take your case on an hourly basis if you have the loot, but unless they failed to follow their due process, it seems like a waste of several thousand more dollars.


--
Il Destriero
 
Perrotfish said:
I would argue groveling is the best course of action. Lawyers can sometimes help when you have a case that they didn't follow due process (or whatever), but that doesn't apply here if he's admitting that he did, in fact, cheat. Once you bring a lawyer in in a case like this it shifts the school into a defensive posture and ends your hope of a merciful reprieve.

What you want to do is build the case that they should take pity on you. You want professors who know you to speak to your good character and how this was something that was clearly a fluke. Seriously, go and ask them to speak on your behalf like you were asking for a letter of recommendation. You also want to go to the administration with a plan of remediation for your character that is sufficiently self flagellating that they actually believe it, with a repeated year and hundred or thousands of hours of community service. You want to go to your dean and ask, sincerely and with tears in your eyes, if there is any way you can make this better. The only way out of this is through your administration's sufferance, everything should focus on that.
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Getting a lawyer does not necessarily mean confronting the school with a lawyer as the first move.

However, if he has any deniability at all and a lawyer could argue that he is being unduly dismissed, he should discuss this with a lawyer before pleading for mercy in front of the dean and, in so doing, likely confessing to the cheating in the first place.
 
gyngyn said:
This does not sound like the whole story.
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In any case, the whole story is really less relevant to what OP should do next than how much of the story the school knew when it dismissed him.
 
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sloop said:
In any case, the whole story is really less relevant to what OP should do next than how much of the story the school knew when it dismissed him.
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It is very uncommon for a 4th year student to be dismissed (no matter how egregious their offense(s)).
I can only offer that dismissals after this many years in school is more likely to be predicated upon a pattern of misdeeds, not a single offense. If the school followed their protocol, OP can use all due process outlined in the student handbook and there is little we can do here without any facts.
 
WLAh7yu.png
 
I actually think that if your school doesn't take you back, it doesn't matter whether a Carib or DO school would take you (I think the latter would be impossible anyway) because when you're applying for residencies, very few if any PDs will consider your application after getting kicked out of your school, especially for academic dishonesty. Sorry for your troubles but I think you have to go grovel to the dean, it's your only hope.
 
Unless your appeal is successful, your medical career is over. You'd be DOA if you applied to my school.

I agree with gyngyn that there is more to this story.


Teaching moment. I suspect that this is what we call the 'tip of the iceberg".



Scholarship2017 said:
Question: What are my options? Can I apply to a new school, or transfer? Can I transfer to an osteopathic school despite having allopathic training? If medicine is out, can I apply to pharmacy or PT schools?
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There is always much more to the story than the OP lets on in the beginning. Just like every similar thread in the history of SDN, assuming the OP sticks around, he/she will sprinkle in a little bit more of the story as we go, and it will become apparent that the initial impression they gave us is not even close to the full extent of the offense(s).

I've been on here for 12 years. It's always the same.
 
lmao how are you going to get through college and med school and do anything but stay squeaky clean at the end
 
There has to be more to this story; we had an MS4 in last year's class that took a swing at an attending and still graduated. They're somewhat liberal with dismissals in pre-clinical years here (already 3 in my class), but I think you would have to commit a hate crime to dismissed as an MS4.
 
Azete said:
There has to be more to this story; we had an MS4 in last year's class that took a swing at an attending and still graduated. They're somewhat liberal with dismissals in pre-clinical years here (already 3 in my class), but I think you would have to commit a hate crime to dismissed as an MS4.
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wow. thats one dumb med student
 
Why is a 4th year medical student taking quiz? Isn't that suppose to be the 'chilling' year?


Your school sucks if they dismiss you for something like this... I am assuming that's the whole story
 
Azete said:
There has to be more to this story; we had an MS4 in last year's class that took a swing at an attending and still graduated. They're somewhat liberal with dismissals in pre-clinical years here (already 3 in my class), but I think you would have to commit a hate crime to dismissed as an MS4.
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You've sparked my curiosity with this one...
 
W19 said:
Why is a 4th year medical student taking quiz? Isn't that suppose to be the 'chilling' year?
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It's the grey area between third and fourth year between different med schools' schedules. Based on the info provided OP most likely done messed-up 3rd year.

Aaaannnd just to join the bandwagon, based on my experience this is probably just the tip of the iceberg for OP's story. I have classmates who were busted for what was essentially cheating on a test in pre-clinical years that got off with a slap on the wrist.
 
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Azete said:
There has to be more to this story; we had an MS4 in last year's class that took a swing at an attending and still graduated. They're somewhat liberal with dismissals in pre-clinical years here (already 3 in my class), but I think you would have to commit a hate crime to dismissed as an MS4.
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Story time
 
Oh_Gee said:
Story time
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Wasn't a part of it and don't know the guy at all, but story goes an attending made a comment about the student's girlfriend/spouse and it set him off.
 
Summertime012 said:
Why is a cheater getting sympathy? Cheating doesn't just happen for the first time as an MS4. Kick Rocks.
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Because simply cheating on an online quiz really doesn't warrant getting kicked out of medical school in M4. Of course, whether that's likely the situation here is understandably doubted.
 
WilliamofOckham said:
Because simply cheating on an online quiz really doesn't warrant getting kicked out of medical school in M4. Of course, whether that's likely the situation here is understandably doubted.
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At face value, cheating on an online quiz = academic dishonesty and clear integrity issues. This is cool as long as you make it to MS4?
 
I have to reiterate gyngyn's from above:

↑ It is very uncommon for a 4th year student to be dismissed (no matter how egregious their offense(s)).
I can only offer that dismissals after this many years in school is more likely to be predicated upon a pattern of misdeeds, not a single offense.

The only reason my school has dismissed people in the clinical years was due to repeated Board failures. Even multiple clerkship failures hasn't triggered the boot.


WilliamofOckham said:
It's not cool, but it's not horrible enough to kick someone to the curb after all of that time and money spent.
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WilliamofOckham said:
Because simply cheating on an online quiz really doesn't warrant getting kicked out of medical school in M4. Of course, whether that's likely the situation here is understandably doubted.
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What exactly is your justification for cheating? I get that it sucks, but somehow this seems like a dangerous mindset. Different consequences based on status/where someone is in their career?

The deed isn't LESS wrong because OP is an MS4, versus an MS1 or a pre-med.
 
Scholarship2017 said:
All,

Thank you for all of the perspectives expressed herein. It is unfortunate that many suspect there is more to my story; there isn't. What do I gain from seeking your advice on only half of my story? Only half of your advice, I suppose. However, I understand the jadedness associated with reading lies and half-truths on these forums. This was the first demerit of my entire academic career (high school, college, medical school). The incident occurred during the last rotation of third year, but the committee's decision was made during the first part of my fourth year.

I'm experiencing significant distress over this situation. And I'm simply requesting advice on where to go from here.
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How exactly were you caught cheating? That's pretty important. Also, have you already admitted on record that you did cheat?
 
Goro said:
I have to reiterate gyngyn's from above:

↑ It is very uncommon for a 4th year student to be dismissed (no matter how egregious their offense(s)).
I can only offer that dismissals after this many years in school is more likely to be predicated upon a pattern of misdeeds, not a single offense.

The only reason my school has dismissed people in the clinical years was due to repeated Board failures. Even multiple clerkship failures hasn't triggered the boot.
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Goro is exactly right. Everyone always says "it was my first time," and everyone is always full of it.

Everybody lies. I find this story implausible, at best.
 
Summertime012 said:
At face value, cheating on an online quiz = academic dishonesty and clear integrity issues. This is cool as long as you make it to MS4?
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Cheating on an online quiz, while against the rules, is not the huge deal you're making it out to be. Most people have probably done it at one point or another in their academic careers. I'm willing to bet you've also cheated on something at some point too. I don't think a person's entire career should be ended over that especially so close to graduation.
 
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any consultation with an attorney can ALWAYS be kept on the downlow unless you're advised otherwise.

*Some* instances the school knowing that an attorney is involved can help you, but that's only certain cases, like if you have some decent evidence of ADA or other discrimination taking place, or other decent grounds for suing, I've *seen* that make things go in a student's favor although it was spendy and protracted.

The way that Dean approaches dismissal can be VASTLY different than what happens when their legal risk department gets involved. However, like I said, it varies greatly when that's a good idea or not.
 
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The assumption that OP has been indeed doing stupid things all along is a valid one.

I agree with chip, such a cheating incident shouldn't be the end of a career this close to graduation. Hence, our belief that this is the tip of the iceberg.

I'm speculating here, but a plausible scenario is that such an online quiz wasn't so trivial...perhaps it was part of a remediation process.

mistafab said:
You gotta be dumb AF to be cheating ms4. Why even bother? You can't be that stupid this far along.
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OP,

I think how to proceed depends on some of the details you haven't provided.

The first question is whether you truly were cheating. I'm assuming you were, or the original question would include that detail. If so, it also depends upon whether this was "willful" = you knew up front it was wrong, vs "accidental" = you didn't know up front it was wrong, thought you were doing something OK, and only now after being shown the rules have discovered it was wrong.

If this was "willful", then begging for mercy is your best option. Your goal is to show that this was truly a "once" event, and won't happen again. A key part of this plan is to accept responsibility for your actions, and propose a remedy. "You graduate with no further outcome" is not a remedy. What exactly are you willing to do to fix this? Extend school by 6-12 months? Create a professionalism curriculum based on your story for your colleagues? Have this mentioned in your MSPE as a major problem? Etc. You should recommend the remedy (or punishment, if you'd rather the negative term). I'd recommend a very public apology as part of the prescription -- something sent to all medical students in the school stating exactly what you did, why it was bad, and how sorry you are.

If "accidental", then you still take responsibility but now can argue that you never would have done this had you known it was wrong. This can backfire -- if it's so obvious to everyone it's wrong, it makes you look really dumb. One of my residents once told me "I didn't know I had to show up for work if there were no patients in my schedule" (there were patients added in). YMMV.

If you weren't cheating and this is an over-reach, that's when some sort of administrative appeal is best. You have a chance to prove that you were not cheating.

A lawyer is a mixed bag, as above posts state. Usually best if you do an admin appeal first and lose, then get a lawyer. Usually a lawyer can only help if the school violated their policies, of if it's a real over reach. Or if a similar event happened in the past with a less severe punishment (which suggests discrimination).

Also, I want to add a bit to the part where people are talking about this being likely a pattern. You mention that there have been no other issues. But if you've rubbed people the wrong way during your schooling, that may also play into this. Sadly, the same goes for the other person -- if the other person involved has generated some "bad vibes" and they have decided they want to get rid of him/her, then they have to terminate you also.
 
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