MS4 from wake forest in HOT water!!!

[Kokonaut]

You'd think someone who would invest all of that effort to get that point would have a bit more introspection. Inevitably you will deal with people who offend you, people you may dislike. Professionalism means being able to be an adult about that. While her post isn't crystal clear about whether she intentionally or unintentionally jabbed twice, it is highly concerning that she'd think physical retaliation would be an appropriate response.

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[voxveritatisetlucis]

Apparently in one of her tweets she says that she had to describe herself as Dr. Surname (not sure if against rules to write actual name so I wrote surname.) multiple times on the phone (presumably when she was a junior based on the date of the tweet). Isn’t it a violation for medical school students to identify themselves as a doctor?

 

[Lawpy]

Talking about her actual intent, if it actually happened as described, blaming reporting to cast doubt or imply bias. There are some "yeah, but..." posts.

Fox News report IS misleading. I don’t know how you can defend that. It’s possible to believe that the Fox News article is bad journalism, and the student messed up badly and should be punished

 

[Redpancreas]

So I guess what do we do now? Advocate for her expulsion? I’m thinking aloud.

 

[Lawpy]

So I guess what do we do now? Advocate for her expulsion? I’m thinking aloud.

If she’s already matched, the program should fire her and she should be permanently banned from ever matching again. The school can expel her on top of that.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

If she’s already matched, the program should fire her and she should be permanently banned from ever matching again. The school can expel her on top of that.

After looking further, it seems like she’s a junior/incoming senior

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

After looking further, it seems like she’s a junior/incoming senior

same, found this

https://school.wakehealth.edu/-/media/WakeForest/School/Files/Education-and-Training/MD-Program/Academic-Calendars/Y4-Academic-Calendar.pdf?la=en

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

At least its early enough in the year she could probably get her tuition back for the semester

 

[Lawpy]

At least its early enough in the year she could probably get her tuition back for the semester

Not sure about that

 

[Redpancreas]

So Wake apparently knows about it. I guess let’s wait and see…I personally think what she said was pretty bad. If there’s a disgruntled party or the patient she treated finds out about this, there could be real trouble for her. In terms of whether I actually want to see her expelled for this, I’m divided. In terms of whether it’s warranted, one could definitely make a case for it.

Forget about what ought to happen for a second. Curious to hear what everyone desires to happen?

Redirect Notice

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

After looking further, it seems like she’s a junior/incoming senior

Are you positive? She may have taken a gap year, but based on her article from march 2021 she was a 3rd year which would make her a 4th year at this moment.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

Are you positive? She may have taken a gap year, but based on her article from march 2021 she was a 3rd year which would make her a 4th year at this moment.

See my post above with the link, Its a weird calendar, she just started 4th year last week

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

Also saying she is a 3rd year in march of 2021 and 4th year in march 2022 doesn't really help with solving the question

 

[Goro]

Is it possible for the NRMP to permanently ban her from ever matching?

NRMP is just a matching service; it's up to Wake and residencies.

Now calm down, because you have to approach this as a medical professional dealing with a patient's report of some symptoms. You have no access to the patient, lab data or her own clinician. Just the tweet

We have two possibilities:

1) The student indeed deliberately hurt the patient in revenge for the anti-trans comment, and bragged about it
2) The student actually missed the vein by accident, but then exulted over having to do a repeat drawn, and bragged about it
3) The student actually missed the vein by accident, but did so because she over-reacted or was flustered by the patient's comment, and this was more like a karma event, rather than actual malice.


Note that the student wrote "I missed his vein and he had to get stuck twice." [icon]

So if it's 1, I'd vote for a dismissal if it were one of my students

If 2) Probably vote for a suspension

If 3) more training on how to deal with people are not like you, and building a thicker skin.

The twitter post is here. I'm left wondering why that's all there is.....I'd like to see the entire thread she posted in, not the repost.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

So Wake apparently knows about it. I guess let’s wait and see…I personally think what she said was pretty bad. If there’s a disgruntled party or the patient she treated finds out about this, there could be real trouble for her. In terms of whether I actually want to see her expelled for this, I’m divided. In terms of whether it’s warranted, one could definitely make a case for it.

Forget about what ought to happen for a second. Curious to hear what everyone desires to happen?

Redirect Notice

As somebody who has technically been kicked out of a med school before, I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. It’s not something you shake off. So, I don’t think I want it to happen on a personal level but think it may be for the best from a patient care perspective.

 

[Redpancreas]

NRMP is just a matching service; it's up to Wake and residencies.

Now calm down, because you have to approach this as a medical professional dealing with a patient's report of some symptoms. You have no access to the patient, lab data or her own clinician. Just the tweet

We have two possibilities:

1) The student indeed deliberately hurt the patient in revenge for the anti-trans comment, and bragged about it
2) The student actually missed the vein by accident, but then exulted over having to do a repeat drawn, and bragged about it
3) The student actually missed the vein by accident, but did so because she over-reacted or was flustered by the patient's comment, and this was more like a karma event, rather than actual malice.


Note that the student wrote "I missed his vein and he had to get stuck twice." [icon]

So if it's 1, I'd vote for a dismissal if it were one of my students

If 2) Probably vote for a suspension

If 3) more training on how to deal with people are not like you, and building a thicker skin.

The twitter post is here. I'm left wondering why that's all there is.....I'd like to see the entire thread she posted in, not the repost.

Maybe I’m biased but I’d say that #3 is less likely given the use of an emoji which is commonly used as in jest regardless of which emoji is employed. I’d also say she should not have revealed what happened to the patient and her revealing that reveals she felt the need to report an adverse outcome in a patient who made an anti-trans comment which can loosely be strung into an argument for why she is not a safe physician for all patients.

 

[Goro]

Maybe I’m biased but I’d say that #3 is less likely given the use of an emoji which is commonly used as in jest regardless of which emoji is employed. I’d also say she should not have revealed what happened to the patient and her revealing that reveals she felt the need to report an adverse outcome in a patient who made an anti-trans comment which can loosely be strung into an argument for why she is not a safe physician for all patients.

The entire fact that she made the tweet shows severe judgement issues, and that would have to be remedied, for sure.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

3) The student actually missed the vein by accident, but did so because she over-reacted or was flustered by the patient's comment, and this was more like a karma event, rather than actual malice.

Someone posted on reddit claiming one of her friends posted on twitter (and shared the screen shot) that she heard the story before it went viral and Kdel called it a "karma-tic." But the moderator took it down, so could be fake or just trying to avoid doxing another student.

So this may be the closest thing to true, regardless crazy she did catch her self. Maybe no intent, but no remorse, and then bragged about

 

[GoSpursGo]

Let’s keep this away from political commentary. Superficial commenting on the source of this specific article is fair game, but a thorough debate about which side of the media is better or worse or how our opinions show our political bias is outside the scope of this discussion.

I’m going to remove a few posts that have nothing to do with the article, consider this a warning for everyone.

EDIT annoying, I deleted some on topic posts on my phone by accident. Sorry anyone affected. Will fix later

 

[NontradICUdoc]

I did a deep dive into this article and, while I cannot stand CNN or MSNBC, I do not only rely on Fox News. There have been other outlets and I also read her tweet, before it was deleted since it was screen captured.

1. While there is nothing in her initial tweet that states that she “purposefully” stuck the patient twice, in the context of the conversation the assumption is that this was done intentionally. Unless you are in her head when she stuck him twice, her true intention will not be known. However, the lens with which she posted it, the context, and the lack of empathy this tweet exudes, one can easily believe it was done purposefully.
2. She lost the trust of any potential attending physician or program. One patient needs to complain that she stuck them more than once and there can be a lot of doubt as to if it were necessary.
3. Any trust that she would treat ALL patients with compassion, empathy,respect, and to the best of her ability are now always cast in doubt. We have all treated people who would otherwise spit on us or have been hateful. Any adverse event that involves her patients will always have to rule out that she did not do anything intentionally.
4. As an intern, resident, and attending your job is also to mentor medical students and to provide a model of appropriate behavior. She has forever tarnished that for her, unless she goes into politics or Hollywood.
5. Past precedence has been set with that student from Ohio and her anti-Semitic tweets, the neuro resident (who was a few months from graduating residency) and destroyed an Uber because she was drunk.
6. Finally, I question her judgement. Seems poor when she decided to post this. How can I be sure that her medical judgement i sound.

 

[Redpancreas]

Someone posted on reddit claiming one of her friends posted on twitter (and shared the screen shot) that she heard the story before it went viral and Kdel called it a "karma-tic." But the moderator took it down, so could be fake or just trying to avoid doxing another student.

So this may be the closest thing to true, regardless crazy she did catch her self. Maybe no intent, but no remorse, and then bragged about

If it was called a Karma-tic, that’s enough for an expulsion but probably more likely a suspension in reality.

 

[Redpancreas]

Let’s keep this away from political commentary. Superficial commenting on the source of this specific article is fair game, but a thorough debate about which side of the media is better or worse or how our opinions show our political bias is outside the scope of this discussion.

I’m going to remove a few posts that have nothing to do with the article, consider this a warning for everyone.

Sorry!

 

[Redpancreas]

I did a deep dive into this article and, while I cannot stand CNN or MSNBC, I do not only rely on Fox News. There have been other outlets and I also read her tweet, before it was deleted since it was screen captured.

1. While there is nothing in her initial tweet that states that she “purposefully” stuck the patient twice, in the context of the conversation the assumption is that this was done intentionally. Unless you are in her head when she stuck him twice, her true intention will not be known. However, the lens with which she posted it, the context, and the lack of empathy this tweet exudes, one can easily believe it was done purposefully.
2. She lost the trust of any potential attending physician or program. One patient needs to complain that she stuck them more than once and there can be a lot of doubt as to if it were necessary.
3. Any trust that she would treat ALL patients with compassion, empathy,respect, and to the best of her ability are now always cast in doubt. We have all treated people who would otherwise spit on us or have been hateful. Any adverse event that involves her patients will always have to rule out that she did not do anything intentionally.
4. As an intern, resident, and attending your job is also to mentor medical students and to provide a model of appropriate behavior. She has forever tarnished that for her, unless she goes into politics or Hollywood.
5. Past precedence has been set with that student from Ohio and her anti-Semitic tweets, the neuro resident (who was a few months from graduating residency) and destroyed an Uber because she was drunk.
6. Finally, I question her judgement. Seems poor when she decided to post this. How can I be sure that her medical judgement i sound.

100% I was going to post this.

 

[DD214]

Dude, why not go full out if you’re already set on getting banned? My posts were taken down too.

But the mods posts about Fox News were not.....

 

[Redpancreas]

I did a deep dive into this article and, while I cannot stand CNN or MSNBC, I do not only rely on Fox News. There have been other outlets and I also read her tweet, before it was deleted since it was screen captured.

1. While there is nothing in her initial tweet that states that she “purposefully” stuck the patient twice, in the context of the conversation the assumption is that this was done intentionally. Unless you are in her head when she stuck him twice, her true intention will not be known. However, the lens with which she posted it, the context, and the lack of empathy this tweet exudes, one can easily believe it was done purposefully.
2. She lost the trust of any potential attending physician or program. One patient needs to complain that she stuck them more than once and there can be a lot of doubt as to if it were necessary.
3. Any trust that she would treat ALL patients with compassion, empathy,respect, and to the best of her ability are now always cast in doubt. We have all treated people who would otherwise spit on us or have been hateful. Any adverse event that involves her patients will always have to rule out that she did not do anything intentionally.
4. As an intern, resident, and attending your job is also to mentor medical students and to provide a model of appropriate behavior. She has forever tarnished that for her, unless she goes into politics or Hollywood.
5. Past precedence has been set with that student from Ohio and her anti-Semitic tweets, the neuro resident (who was a few months from graduating residency) and destroyed an Uber because she was drunk.
6. Finally, I question her judgement. Seems poor when she decided to post this. How can I be sure that her medical judgement i sound.

Completely agree with a lot of this. I will say though that destroying an Uber and acting like a maniac is probably a bit more severe than this.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

So only media commentary that fits one side is acceptable on SDN

Got it LOL

That's a sad commentary on this site

This thread is about a libs of Tik Tok tweet about to cancel a liberal med student

 

[GoSpursGo]

But the mods posts about Fox News were not.....

I went back through the current page. Again because I’m on my phone, and also because I am watching my 3 kids while trying to keep things semi on topic. I don’t feel like combing the whole thread so sorry if there’s something that offends you personally.

Let’s get back on topic. Last warning

 

[DD214]

I went back through the current page. Again because I’m on my phone, and also because I am watching my 3 kids while trying to keep things semi on topic. I don’t feel like combing the whole thread so sorry if there’s something that offends you personally.

Let’s get back on topic. Last warning

Nothing offensive

Just asking for consistency

 

[Redpancreas]

Alright well I guess most of us are in agreement that her tweet warrants a significant penalty whether that’s a slap in the wrist or expulsion. I guess we will have to tune in later and see. A precedent for expulsion/termination has definitely been set with the anti-Semitic resident story. I personally hope she learns a valuable lesson about accepting everyone which is ironically what she thought she was an advocate for as opposed to her literally getting expelled.

@GoSpursGo What do you think the penalty should be?

 

[Billiam95]

Thread makes me glad I deleted twitter a while ago.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Alright well I guess most of us are in agreement that her tweet warrants a significant penalty whether that’s a slap in the wrist or expulsion. I guess we will have to tune in later and see. A precedent for expulsion/termination has definitely been set with the anti-Semitic resident story. I personally hope she learns a valuable lesson about accepting everyone which is ironically what she thought she was an advocate for as opposed to her literally getting expelled.

@GoSpursGo What do you think the penalty should be?

The irony is, in fact, staggering.

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

Thread makes me glad I deleted twitter a while ago.

In 2022, social media is like playing with fire. Unless you're very good at censoring everything you say lol

 

[CanIBeAnonymous]

In 2022, social media is like playing with fire. Unless you're very good at censoring everything you say lol

I wouldn't call it playing with fire, it's very easy to not say something stupid. More often than not if someone got 'burned' by their use of social media, they probably earned it.

 

[solitarius]

1) That's unacceptable. Can't judge patients for their beliefs no matter whether you disagree with them, let alone actively inflict harm (no matter how minor you think it may be) because of them.
2) Exhibit #3,485 why you shouldn't post on social media, and especially not about patients.

I guess you missed out on all the woke kids they admitted to medical school.

 

[CanIBeAnonymous]

I guess you missed out on all the woke kids they admitted to medical school.

You realize this works both ways right? Do you know how many people receive substandard care because of their race, orientation, drug use history, etc?

Also there's a reason posts in this thread were deleted - this very same type of detraction

 

[Ho0v-man]

Even if it didn’t happen (which it likely did), this person is seeking praise for harming a person who doesn’t agree with her. Full stop. Shouldn’t be a doctor.

 

[Lawpy]

In 2022, social media is like playing with fire. Unless you're very good at censoring everything you say lol

Is it that hard to behave on social media? I’m literally seeing lots of medical leaders sharing journal articles, news and job opportunities on Twitter

 

[solitarius]

You realize this works both ways right? Do you know how many people receive substandard care because of their race, orientation, drug use history, etc?

Also there's a reason posts in this thread were deleted - this very same type of detraction

Were you triggered?

Are you resorting to censorship?

 

[CanIBeAnonymous]

Were you triggered?

Are you resorting to censorship?

What? Kind of ironic to react this way and then ask if someone else is triggered. I was saying your post is off topic, so don't get in a flippy when mine and yours are deleted.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Even if it didn’t happen (which it likely did), this person is seeking praise for harming a person who doesn’t agree with her. Full stop. Shouldn’t be a doctor.

Yeah, the absolute best case interpretation of that tweet is that the missed first attempt was a genuine miss but she seemed to think the patient deserved that second stick for his comment.

If we assume this is the case (and that's a big if), I don't think expulsion would be an unfair penalty but I also wouldn't be furious if she got a suspension with a note in her Dean's letter talking about the issue assuming she's been a perfect student otherwise.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

think the patient deserved that second stick for his comment.

Isn't everyone's reaction a reflexive "Im so sorry, let me try again"

 

[NontradICUdoc]

This thread is about a libs of Tik Tok tweet about to cancel a liberal med student

No. It's about a medical student who felt she would win over social media by causing harm to a patient because of what he said. This is an example of what NOT to do if you value your future and an important lesson that
1. Social Media is a disease
2. People need to take a moment and think before typing. The fact that you can say what you want without someone in front of you and fear immediate consequences is a problem.
3. The internet is forever.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Isn't everyone's reaction a reflexive "Im so sorry, let me try again"

And there's a decent chance she said that to the patient at the time, but the tweet seems to be her internal reaction.

 

[FalconSlice]

Idk if someone mentioned this earlier, but there is a possibility that 100% of her tweet was fabricated as well... unfortunately, that is the best case scenario for whatever that's worth

EDIT: I'm seeing people are assuming I meant my initial post above as a means to exonerate her. No, all I said was that if she fabricated everything, that "would be the best case scenario" as in... "no matter what, she's f***** in some regard"

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Idk if someone mentioned this earlier, but there is a possibility that 100% of her tweet was fabricated as well... unfortunately, that is the best case scenario for whatever that's worth

Even so it would be like a professor “joking” that he or she grades papers based on likability or attractiveness. Regardless of whether it’s true, you just can’t have that person teaching classes anymore

 

[Goro]

Idk if someone mentioned this earlier, but there is a possibility that 100% of her tweet was fabricated as well... unfortunately, that is the best case scenario for whatever that's worth

If true, her judgement is still in question. SERIOUSLY in question.

 

[FalconSlice]

If true, her judgement is still in question. SERIOUSLY in question.

Agreed. No matter the real truth, she's not coming out of this unscathed. (note the use of the correct pronoun)

I'm seeing people are assuming I meant my initial post as means to exonerate her. No, all I said was that if she fabricated everything, that "would be the best case scenario" as in... "no matter what, she's f***** in some regard"

 

[mrbreakfast]

Idk if someone mentioned this earlier, but there is a possibility that 100% of her tweet was fabricated as well... unfortunately, that is the best case scenario for whatever that's worth

Don't really think that matters. Even if this is fabricated and an attempt at a joke, that fact that it can be easily taken as a true event - which I think we would all agree it can be - is enough, I think, for termination. I've heard of residents fired for (much) less.

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

Don't really think that matters. Even if this is fabricated and an attempt at a joke, that fact that it can be easily taken as a true event - which I think we would all agree it can be - is enough, I think, for termination. I've heard of residents fired for (much) less.

It would be a tough situation for Wake Forest if it turned out that this situation was all fabricated and the patient was not stuck twice. The main reason being that her actions have directly interfered with public trust in the medical profession, something that is so vitally important to maintain. But at this point we are just debating over hypotheticals... best to wait for an official statement from Wake Forest on their internal investigation.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

It would be a tough situation for Wake Forest if it turned out that this situation was all fabricated and the patient was not stuck twice. The main reason being that her actions have directly interfered with public trust in the medical profession, something that is so vitally important to maintain. But at this point we are just debating over hypotheticals... best to wait for an official statement from Wake Forest on their internal investigation.

Don’t hold your breath. I would be shocked if we ever find out what happened unless a lawsuit is filed. Schools are very rigid on not disclosing the results of disciplinary proceedings even when legally permitted