MS4 from wake forest in HOT water!!!

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Once again, nobody is doing that.
It is a defense when people are saying she should be given a lighter punishment or they’re having a change of heart just because the media shed a light on it and they feel it’s getting more attention than it should be. What does attention being on it have to do with her actions or words and it being unacceptable as a future physician?
 
Why is it so hard to criticize both Fox News AND the student? We are six pages into the thread somehow stuck on the same talking points. These things aren’t mutually exclusive. Fox News should be criticized for exaggerating the incident and misleading readers/viewers. The student should be slammed for posting that horrible and insensitive tweet. You can agree with both views.
 
Why is it so hard to criticize both Fox News AND the student? We are six pages into the thread somehow stuck on the same talking points. These things aren’t mutually exclusive. Fox News should be criticized for exaggerating the incident and misleading readers/viewers. The student should be slammed for posting that horrible and insensitive tweet. You can agree with both views.
Agreed. I just don’t see why Fox News blasting her is grounds for a softer view point towards her.
 
It is a defense when people are saying she should be given a lighter punishment or they’re having a change of heart just because the media shed a light on it and they feel it’s getting more attention than it should be. What does attention being on it have to do with her actions or words and it being unacceptable as a future physician?
But nobody is saying that.

I completely agree that it is about the student's actions, and the media commentary is a tangential topic which has clearly now gotten overblown. But if people are going to keep asserting incorrectly that I'm saying that the student should have a lighter punishment, then I am going to keep correcting them.
 
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But nobody is saying that.

I completely agree that it is about the student's actions and the media commentary is a tangential topic. But if people are going to keep asserting incorrectly that I'm saying that the student should have a lighter punishment, then I am going to keep correcting them.
I’m having a change in heart now

think the best course of action is a suspension
Yeah I'm really tempted to have this take, because it is really stupid that any news outlet is getting multiple days of content out of a stupid tweet
Yes, it is being said. Literally giving her sympathy because of a media outlet blasting her for something she did. 😐
That’s completely different from simply saying that fox’s coverage was ridiculous.
 
Yes, it is being said. Literally giving her sympathy because of a media outlet blasting her for something she did. 😐
That’s completely different from simply saying that fox’s coverage was ridiculous.
Weirdly enough, my criticism of the student actually hardened even more even as I recognize the problems and biased reporting of Fox News
 
Yes, it is being said. Literally giving her sympathy because of a media outlet blasting her for something she did. 😐
That’s completely different from simply saying that fox’s coverage was ridiculous.
I read this as she's almost certainly getting a lot of hate mail because of the national coverage of this which is a punishment in itself.
 
Weirdly enough, my criticism of the student actually hardened even more even as I recognize the problems and biased reporting of Fox News
I just ignored fox entirely once I saw how they were clownin. These media outlets do the most 😂🙄
 
I just ignored fox entirely once I saw how they were clownin. These media outlets do the most 😂🙄
I still think it’s a problem though basically entirely on the student end since she pretty much destroyed her own reputation and credibility when treating anyone who has views differing from her own. Fox News basically amplified that dramatically

What angers me is how poorly the school handled the situation with blame shifting based on the tweets linked earlier.
 
I read this as she's almost certainly getting a lot of hate mail because of the national coverage of this which is a punishment in itself.
I can see that now that you’ve said it. However I still don’t think it should have a bearing on her being allowed to continue on in medical school or a residency. This situation is entirely on her. No one told her to brag on social media to appear morally superior.
 
I still think it’s a problem though basically entirely on the student end since she pretty much destroyed her own reputation and credibility when treating anyone who has views differing from her own. Fox News basically amplified that dramatically

What angers me is how poorly the school handled the situation with blame shifting based on the tweets linked earlier.
Same. I really feel like the school dropped the ball on this one. Instead of actually addressing the root problem they tried to shift blame and then blocked social interactions on their pages so people couldn’t comment. Not a good look as a school charged with educating physicians. If I was an applicant they would be off my list of schools for consideration.
 
the sad thing is that in the wake forest Groupme, most of the students are hoping this will blow over. there's very little concern about medical ethics at any level in the institution. should I post the chats?
Probably not for privacy reasons (and don’t want you to get in trouble). But this is depressing
 
the sad thing is that in the wake forest Groupme, most of the students are hoping this will blow over. there's very little concern about medical ethics at any level in the institution. should I post the chats?

I hate to be the one to spell this out to you but don't do this. You would be violating SDN terms of service.
 
Yes, it is being said. Literally giving her sympathy because of a media outlet blasting her for something she did. 😐
That’s completely different from simply saying that fox’s coverage was ridiculous.
Yeah I meant how @VA Hopeful Dr meant.

Anyways, I fundamentally agree this part of the discussion is taking away from the more important parts.
 
the sad thing is that in the wake forest Groupme, most of the students are hoping this will blow over. there's very little concern about medical ethics at any level in the institution. should I post the chats?
That’s honestly really interesting. A lot of other students I’ve spoken to about this were mainly concerned with medical ethics when they heard of this situation.
 
Various posters on the Groupme are also hoping the administration "outs" people who have been leaking info to the media. Specifically, they want the admin to track email forwards to see if they can find the leaker. The prevailing attitude is that the students want to avoid further reputational damage to the medical school as they look to match. They do not appear to have considered that their attitude/the administration's attitude is contributing to ongoing reputational damage.
Oh geez that school has very serious problems but frustrating that the student body is aligned closely with administration.
 
We all know Fox played this up because the story 'speaks' to their audience. I agree with others that this is a bit of a different topic than the act and subsequent posting on social media by this particular student.

There are two things to learn here as others have pointed out:

1. Don't do something like this (if she intentionally did it) in terms of the re-sticking. I deal with patients all the time that express views in clinic I don't agree with. I'm not out to save the political world in clinic. I just give a soft nod and continue giving the care I intended to give them regardless of what they just said...nor do I argue with them. They come to me for health care, not my political opinion. Some of them may not talk to many people or get out very often and thus use care providers as a place to express themselves. In the rare occurrence they ask my opinion, I have always been easily able to come up with something that acknowledges both sides of things without causing any anger in the clinic room. I may sometimes gently try to tell them something that may help them think of things in a different way, but I don't verbally disagree or argue with them.

At best, this student missed an opportunity to possibly express and explain their stance and instead took a more sophomoric approach (again, at best).

2. Regardless of if the act of re-sticking was intentional or just happened (and played up for whatever reason), don't post this stuff on social media. It's easy to perceive it as getting a bunch of kudos from the intended 'audience', but someone will find it and put it out there, as happened here. Nobody wants to get their 15 minutes of fame this way.

It's easy. Before you post anything on social media about your medical career ask yourself "Is this helpful, educational, or beneficial?" If you can answer yes, then probably ok to go for it (outside of things like HIPAA and such). If your answer is "No or maybe", then best just to skip it.

It's a similar policy I try to use here on SDN. If a post I type out is sarcastic, obnoxious, or generally unhelpful I just delete it and move on.
 
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That’s honestly really interesting. A lot of other students I’ve spoken to about this were mainly concerned with medical ethics when they heard of this situation.
I’m now wondering whether the school and students defending that malicious student will now crackdown on whistleblowers and deflect the blame on Fox News for biased reporting. Leaking to all mainstream media (especially the Wall Street Journal and New York Times which are crucial here) will be of best bet
 
Various posters on the Groupme are also hoping the administration "outs" people who have been leaking info to the media. Specifically, they want the admin to track email forwards to see if they can find the leaker. The prevailing attitude is that the students want to avoid further reputational damage to the medical school as they look to match. They do not appear to have considered that their attitude/the administration's attitude is contributing to ongoing reputational damage.
There’s some serious weird energy going on at that school…
I can get not wanting the match to be affected but I wouldn’t be upset at someone leaking things to the media. I would be focused on the school handling the situation properly so the integrity of the school and future students/physicians are upheld.
 
Various posters on the Groupme are also hoping the administration "outs" people who have been leaking info to the media. Specifically, they want the admin to track email forwards to see if they can find the leaker. The prevailing attitude is that the students want to avoid further reputational damage to the medical school as they look to match. They do not appear to have considered that their attitude/the administration's attitude is contributing to ongoing reputational damage.
People will generally focus on their own self interest. All the wake students worried about this affecting their match are absolutely right - I think it might. I certainly have a lower opinion of the school than I did a few weeks ago and all things being equal I would interview a student from another school if given the choice.

Fair or not, the perception now is that this girl represents the kind of students Wake produces. It’s “pronouns uber alles” down there in North Carolina. Ethics only matter there if the patient is suitably woke.

Obviously I exaggerate but sadly not by much. Academic medicine today is far to the left of the general public. I think Wake was genuinely surprised by the backlash they’ve received because they probably thought they were in the right all along.

While you shouldn’t post the GroupMe here (tos violation plus they could easily sue for your IP and info), I can think of a news network that would possibly be interested in another 2 minute segment on how the students are similarly extremist rather than empathizing with a harmed patient would rather hunt down leakers. It would play nicely into their narrative and they would likely protect their source.
 
I haven't read this whole thread but leave it to Fox News to try to make this a news story. Though honestly it's stupidity on the part of everyone involved.

So many med students have this attitude too, which is annoying. The tweet is mildly funny, "oh haha pt did something bad, so I poked him twice." PROVIDED ITS NOT TRUE. Provided you're making a joke and didn't actually poke a mf patient two times. Its the same joke as the pt complaining and whining about a bumpy car ride and RLQ pain so you hit their right heel at the edge of the bed when you introduce yourself. Ha-ha, we know why it's funny, but you don't actually do it. If it's true, then bragging about it is even worse than doing it IMO. How stupid can you be. And for the student, activism isn't about playing offense or getting digs in on the other side, its about being dignified in order for people on the fence to look up to you and maybe change their mind...

Anyway, so the woke student who's in the blah blah club blah blah fellowship yeah, yeah we've heard it before, get in line with every med student in the country, posts a dumb tweet likely embellishing a minor clinical experience she had. Then the triggered blogger comes upon the tweet and finds something in the tweet to write about (which again, I only think is arguable if you take the tweet entirely truthfully and literally, which I think is a stretch but OK). Then, the least surprising part of all, Fox News uses the whole thing to push more propaganda. It should be an 8th grade writing assignment to list how many propaganda tools they used in a single "news" article: emotional appeal, accusing their opponents/"liberals" of "propaganda," oh and not to mention half of the article is "in quotations". Reminds me of those memes coming out about Ben Shapiro and his sister: --Hypothetically, if I were "into my sister"--for the sake of the argument--and if I "liked big breasts," and my sister "has big breasts", then hypothetically, yes, for the sake of the argument, I would be "into my sister's big breasts"--... You get the idea. The quotations are just a way to have the reader insert their own thoughts (prejudices) without Fox having to even provide anything of substance in the article. Its like a Mad Lib but instead of parts of speech it has you insert [your opinion on pronouns], [your prejudice against transgender people], [your reason why all liberals are wrong].

So dumb. And American media has been focused on Russian propaganda as if Russia is the only place that's capable of feeding their citizens a bunch of bull. This is what we get when the most shallow people from either side of the aisle throw jabs, and it only divides the country further.
 
Reminds me of those memes coming out about Ben Shapiro and his sister: --Hypothetically, if I were "into my sister"--for the sake of the argument--and if I "liked big breasts," and my sister "has big breasts", then hypothetically, yes, for the sake of the argument, I would be "into my sister's big breasts"--
wut
 
Haven't you and others beat this to death about the article, who cares, but ok. You and some others made this more about the media than about the student's tweet...SMH.
1.) Fox News has chosen to make this girl national news for one tweet and they misreported the actual facts in their featured article about it. I think that’s ridiculous. This is America. This shouldn’t be happening.

2.) She posted once on Twitter. I’m sure if we rummage through every medical students social we’ll find 100s of similar examples. I think we all know why the article is being featured. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
 
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I’m sure if we rummage through every medical students social we’ll find 100s of similar examples.
???

I'm willing to bet you wouldn't. Literally can't think of a single time I would have felt good about hurting a patient. I'm still haunted by my IM rotation, where the IM resident let me try drawing up an ABG. It... didn't go well, sad to say.
 
1.) Fox News has chosen to make this girl national news for one tweet and they misreported the actual facts in their featured article about it. I think that’s ridiculous. This is America. This shouldn’t be happening.

2.) She posted once on Twitter. I’m sure if we rummage through every medical students social we’ll find 100s of similar examples. I think we all know why the article is being featured. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Fox has definitely taken the easy unnuanced approach to this issue. Though in the court of public opinion, the burden of proof in this case seems to fall on the student to prove she did not do it intentionally. It may not be fair, but then again she’s the one who chose to post in the first place. And her post does leave it open to interpretation whether or not it was intentional. Kind of a perfect storm really in that it traps Wake into trying to be fair and nuanced because they see it as likely not intentional and more of a social media use issue.

I think it resonates because we all know how the woke left and her admin would have responded if she had said the same thing about a trans person or a Black person or any other marginalized group. For them to treat this differently makes it appear that they condone some kinds of hate at Wake, just so long as it’s against a socially acceptable group. The less-woke appear to be one such group for them.

The fact this revolves around a trans issue is perfect for Fox because they wisely see this is a powerful wedge issue. Most of the country is just coming to terms with the idea of new terminology while the far left has gone full on “men have periods too” and banning gendered sections in kids stores in CA and making med/surg interventions available for minors. The right already feels like this agenda is being forced upon them, and then little miss virtue signal comes along suggesting she stabbed someone with a needle for not being woke enough for her taste. I mean she might has well have wrapped the tweet and given it to Tucker as a holiday present.
 
1.) Fox News has chosen to make this girl national news for one tweet and they misreported the actual facts in their featured article about it. I think that’s ridiculous. This is America. This shouldn’t be happening.

2.) She posted once on Twitter. I’m sure if we rummage through every medical students social we’ll find 100s of similar examples. I think we all know why the article is being featured. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
100s of examples! Where do you go? Wake Forest?
 
Completely ridiculous.

In psychiatry we had a leader in the field kicked out of his department and removed from his job due to a stupid mistake is social media. If you see the prevailing opinion on the psych thread - it is that if you make a mistake like that, you’re out and you deserve it.

Nothing new here. Make a mistake and you are out, period. The damage wake forest will feel regarding patient trust in their community has been done. That’s what it really comes down to. It wont really change how people match - but people served by their hospital will definitely take notice. School should have taken it serious and expelled the student.

If there are hundreds of cases like this in social media, then that should be hundreds of people kicked out of medicine. It is 2022, you make a mistake like this and it’s on you - this is nothing new.
 
Completely ridiculous.

In psychiatry we had a leader in the field kicked out of his department and removed from his job due to a stupid mistake is social media. If you see the prevailing opinion on the psych thread - it is that if you make a mistake like that, you’re out and you deserve it.

Nothing new here. Make a mistake and you are out, period. The damage wake forest will feel regarding patient trust in their community has been done. That’s what it really comes down to. It wont really change how people match - but people served by their hospital will definitely take notice. School should have taken it serious and expelled the student.

If there are hundreds of cases like this in social media, then that should be hundreds of people kicked out of medicine. It is 2022, you make a mistake like this and it’s on you - this is nothing new.

Yeah, frankly I don’t understand why people feel so burdened by accountability. Accountability is not a burden. It is a privilege.

It’s not good to live without accountability because that’s a sign you haven’t accomplished anything and have no direction. The fact that you can be knocked down a rung for doing something stupid simultaneously means that you’ve actually accomplished something such that there is a lower rung to be knocked down to and that you have a reason to continuously sort yourself out and act properly. People who don’t have that are miserable and make everyone around them that much more miserable. I don’t understand why anyone would want that.

Just as holding police accountable when they do something wrong makes policing a more honorable profession, so too does holding physicians and medical students accountable make medicine a more honorable profession.
 
???

I'm willing to bet you wouldn't. Literally can't think of a single time I would have felt good about hurting a patient. I'm still haunted by my IM rotation, where the IM resident let me try drawing up an ABG. It... didn't go well, sad to say.
This is not what the girl did. She likely did not stick a patient a second time out of malice. At least there is no evidence of that.

What she said is the literal equivalent of any layperson saying so and so said this hurtful thing to me, they deserve to get hit by a ton of bricks. If you never felt or thought or wished harm onto someone who pissed you off, you’re in a small minority.

The issue though is she’s a future physician who in the moment lacked situational awareness of what her statement implied. Penalties need to be dealt. After rethinking the situation, based on the fact it’s her first offense with no evidence of prior issues in this realm (I imagine if there were Fox News would have made them clear), I think a leave or absence/suspension with some code of conduct training is in order. Her career trajectory was likely to be permanently affected by this assuming the school found out and took the necessary actions. I do not think it warranted national TV news attention which was only done so Fox could to propagate the notion that liberals are crazy sociopaths who care about transgender people but not others (in order to create distrust in people who support transgender people). There was no journalistic or media integrity in any of this
 
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This is not what the girl did. She likely did not stick a patient a second time out of malice. At least there is no evidence of that.

What she said is the literal equivalent of any layperson saying so and so said this hurtful thing to me, they deserve to get hit by a ton of bricks. If you never felt or thought or wished harm onto someone who pissed you off, you’re in a small minority.

The issue though is she’s a future physician who in the moment lacked situational awareness of what her statement implied. Penalties need to be dealt. After rethinking the situation, based on the fact it’s her first offense with no evidence of prior issues in this realm, I think a leave or absence/suspension with some code of conduct training is in order. Her career trajectory was likely to be permanently affected by this assuming the school found out and took the necessary actions. I do not think it warranted national TV news attention which was only done to serve their selfish notion that liberals are crazy sociopaths who care about transgender people but not others (in order to create distrust in people who support transgender people). There was no journalistic or media integrity in any of this.
thank you for speaking some common sense. my faith in this profession has been somewhat restored.
 
thank you for speaking some common sense. my faith in this profession has been somewhat restored.
It’s difficult to separate from politics. I think some are upset that that cancel culture is not applied equally across the political spectrum and I think they have a valid point. For that, they’re willing to condemn the girl to expulsion to restore some fairness.
 
It’s difficult to separate from politics. I think some are upset that that cancel culture is not applied equally across the political spectrum and I think they have a valid point. For that, they’re willing to condemn the girl to expulsion to restore some fairness.
Or she deserves to be expelled for what she did, and if she is not, its is further evidence that cancel culture is not applied equally. Thus fueling the culture war. Furthering distrust in the medical community, and adding to the evidence universities are liberal echo chambers (from the perspective of the right).
 
it is also further evidence that the pronoun nonsense is a novel wedge (one of many) that insufferable, high-privilege progressives wield to distinguish themselves from the working class.
it really isn't that deep.
 
Well, "use my pronouns or I'll celebrate your injuries" would imply it's not about inclusivity. 🙂
That's the way you interpret it.

It's not an unusual or alien concept to let people be called what they want to be called. I don't go around to people who identify as Muslim and declare that that they are non-Muslim, no matter what my personal opinion is about their faith. That would land me in a world of trouble. It's a similar concept with gender these days.
 
It’s difficult to separate from politics. I think some are upset that that cancel culture is not applied equally across the political spectrum and I think they have a valid point. For that, they’re willing to condemn the girl to expulsion to restore some fairness.
Judging by the tweet, I’m sure she’s joined in many cancel mobs before for probably much less.
 
Nah, I'm not gonna call someone "zey zim" any more than I'm going to let people pick their race or height. It's just too silly, sorry. If you want to berate someone over that (or brag about their injuries on Twitter), that's not my problem. Again, the purpose of the whole thing, as Kychelle demonstrates, is that it's a signaling mechanism.
I mean race is extremely subjective as well lol. I have a feeling that you're not in medicine at all.
 
I know it sounds like a cheap point, but that is literally what a future SCOTUS justice just said. She can't define woman because she's not a biologist...that is where we are.
It is the kind of absurdity that you hear only when one has been in a bubble for a very long time.
No one is there to tell them, knock it off, that's silly.

Kychelle Del Rosario, like virtually everyone else attending medical school, has been in a bubble for a long time with this pronoun stuff. I don't mind if you personally want to use whatever pronouns you want. But students are being taught that, to refuse to use someone else's pronouns is to KILL THEM. It causes suicide. Kychelle wrote a lot about that at Wake Forest. It's LITERAL VIOLENCE to disagree on that point.

Incidentally am hearing that regarding Kychelle, an 'internal investigation' has concluded that will not result in her dismissal. This is secondhand from faculty. The LOA appears to be timed to coincide with a study block but that is just speculation as of now...
I think Fox and the right have wisely identified the far left as a key wedge issue here. Kychelle’s tweet signifies what drives so many crazy: that the left insists on 100% compliance. It’s not enough to simply call people what they want to be called; if you don’t toe the line all the way to saying men have periods too, then you’re simply a transphobe who is committing violence and not worthy of ethical treatment.

This resonates more than people realize. Even people like me who have done a lot of actual real life work to help trans patients (ie not just pins and tweets) think it’s gone off the deep end. I’ve even had patients jokingly mention this story to me this week and I’m about as far away from Wake as you can get in a very very blue state.
 
I know it sounds like a cheap point, but that is literally what a future SCOTUS justice just said. She can't define woman because she's not a biologist...that is where we are.
It is the kind of absurdity that you hear only when one has been in a bubble for a very long time.
No one is there to tell them, knock it off, that's silly.

Kychelle Del Rosario, like virtually everyone else attending medical school, has been in a bubble for a long time with this pronoun stuff. I don't mind if you personally want to use whatever pronouns you want. But students are being taught that, to refuse to use someone else's pronouns is to KILL THEM. It causes suicide. Kychelle wrote a lot about that at Wake Forest. It's LITERAL VIOLENCE to disagree on that point.

Incidentally am hearing that regarding Kychelle, an 'internal investigation' has concluded that will not result in her dismissal. This is secondhand from faculty. The LOA appears to be timed to coincide with a study block but that is just speculation as of now...

To be fair, people who are trans generally have a much higher rate of attempted suicide when compared to the general population. Gender dysphoria is a diagnosis in the DSM as well. Now would I say something like misgendering someone is murder? No. However, I think it is fair to say that is a population that is at much higher risk of intentional or casual discrimination. I don't have people attempting to belittle aspects of my identity or threatening overt violence as any regular part of my day well, ever. If only takes a small amount of effort to ask someone what they would like to be called, fair enough. Working through any discomfort with that seems more of a personal issue and an aspect of being a professional.
 
To be fair, people who are trans generally have a much higher rate of attempted suicide when compared to the general population. Gender dysphoria is a diagnosis in the DSM as well. Now would I say something like misgendering someone is murder? No. However, I think it is fair to say that is a population that is at much higher risk of intentional or casual discrimination. I don't have people attempting to belittle aspects of my identity or threatening overt violence as any regular part of my day well, ever. If only takes a small amount of effort to ask someone what they would like to be called, fair enough. Working through any discomfort with that seems more of a personal issue and an aspect of being a professional.
Lots of impressive mental gymnastics, but still doesn't excuse her actions.
 
Lots of impressive mental gymnastics, but still doesn't excuse her actions.

At no point did I say I support her actions. She absolutely erred and even an implication of satisfaction from unintentionally harming patients is troubling.

Saying that there is a good reason to provide respect to trans patients does not indicate her actions are justified. That is a false equivalency.
 
1.) Fox News has chosen to make this girl national news for one tweet and they misreported the actual facts in their featured article about it. I think that’s ridiculous. This is America. This shouldn’t be happening.

2.) She posted once on Twitter. I’m sure if we rummage through every medical students social we’ll find 100s of similar examples. I think we all know why the article is being featured. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
You have found more problems with the article than with the content of the med student's tweet. I know, you will say that you don't stand for what she said, but your posts certainly feel that you are trying to distract from what this is all about. But hey, it's your opinion.
 
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