MSTP Boulevard part 01

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Hrm, pardon, but that MCGeorgia post reads more like a PR statement than something that presents both sides of the issue.

I found this pretty good link tho'. Mostly subjective quotations, but at least it culls them from both perspectives.

<a href="http://www.hms.harvard.edu/md_phd/Winter_94_Newsltr.html" target="_blank">http://www.hms.harvard.edu/md_phd/Winter_94_Newsltr.html</a>

I, personally, am wrangling over whether I want to do MD/PhD. I'm a BME, so potentially there exists a good synergy point between what I want to research and doing practice. I'm also interested in medical technology too, so a good understanding of how they all work and how to build, say, new imaging devices or new minimally invasive surgical tools could help, and a PhD would help in that, I think
 
"MD/PhD students returning to the wards often stand out because of their increased maturity and organization. The process of the PhD degree requires that a student learn to justify their thought process at every turn."

Um, that's a possibility. Or could be that MD/PhDs are simply older in general than fresh, young MDs.
 
Perhaps I can put this in front of you all.

I applied MD to several research schools in the US, and to one school in Canada. My interest, like baylor21's, is diagnostic radiology. More specifically, in the use of MRI/NMR to detect cancer in early stages.

I am trying to decide if I should do an MD or and MD/PhD. I have a year or so to decide. I didn't qualify for MSTP funding at any schools (I'm Canadian) so if I do an MD/PhD it will be without full funding (except for the Canadian school, where I would get the Canadian equivalent of MSTP funding). I'd just do an MD/PhD on my own as a joint degree at the US schools I applied to. Unfortunately, the one school that would offer me MSTP funding is WashU, and I missed the deadline there. 🙁

Anyway, I haven't exactly decided yet how I intend to balance research and practice, which I suppose would be the big question. But I take it the research I am looking at doing would be considered clinical research, right? I'm trying to weigh out the advantages of an research oriented MD vs. a MD/PhD.

What do you guys think? Any opinions?
 
Socialist,

I dont recall "glorifying" MSTPs as you put it. I have always stated there are compromises involved and that its not for everyone. How is that glorifying it?

Nice article derisive. Yes I agree the FAQ I found is somewhat one-sided. Unfortunately there doesnt seem to be very much printed media on the debate between MD/PhD and regular MD. If anyone finds anymore articles on this, please post them.

I'm also looking to do BME. I think BME is a particularly good area for basic science-clinical interaction with an MD/PhD. But of course thats my biased viewpoint.
 
brandonite,

Read the artile that derisive posted. I think its a good starting point for getting cogent arguments from both sides.
 
Hi Sonya and ConstantlyWaiting,
I'm a first year MSTP student at UCSF. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

For anyone and everyone,
I've put together a guidebook for MD/PhD applicants based on my experiences and those of others. If I can help anyone get through the process with less pain than I did, I'll be eternally happy. You can find it at the following link:

<a href="http://itsa.ucsf.edu/~jcholfin/" target="_blank">http://itsa.ucsf.edu/~jcholfin/</a>

I haven't had time to really spiff up the site yet, but eventually I'll get to it and put it in a more easily read onscreen format. Please let me know if you have any comments or suggestions. Or even some cool stories to contribute... 😀
 
hey VADER:

thanks for your contribution. Good stuff.

I think you posted here that last year UCLA's MSTP did not fill their spots (even after going through their wait list).

Does this happen at UCLA MSTP every year? How many funded slots do they have? Does this sort of thing happen at UCLA only or at other schools as well? Is there a particular reason why people would turn down UCLA so much? I ask b/c UCLA med is supposedly to be great, UCLA med center is the best on the west coast, and their research (and NIH funding) is extremely strong. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
 
also, has anybody gotten accepted at UCSD MSTP?
 
Vader:

I've been reading your posts for over a year, ever since you were in the midst of applying and I can see your genuine commitment to both the career path of the academic physician and to assisting others as you have been assisted in the past. The excellent guidebook you and the others at UCSF's MSTP have created exemplifies these qualities. In my role as a pre-med advisor and mentor, be sure that I will be directing individuals interested in learning about mudphud to your page.

To make the site more 'marketable' and the address more memorable, check out the go.to webpage and get a shorter name to redirect (like go.to/mudphud). It works out real well, for an example check out the page I created with a group for a class project last semester: <a href="http://go.to/stemcell" target="_blank">http://go.to/stemcell</a> best seen at 1024*768 🙂
 
Originally posted by chef:
•
Does this happen at UCLA MSTP every year? How many funded slots do they have? Does this sort of thing happen at UCLA only or at other schools as well? Is there a particular reason why people would turn down UCLA so much? I ask b/c UCLA med is supposedly to be great, UCLA med center is the best on the west coast, and their research (and NIH funding) is extremely strong. 😕 •••

Hey chef,
I think UCLA tends to do pretty well in terms of MSTP offer/acceptance ratio, so last year may have been a fluke. UCLA definitely has many strengths, as you mentioned, but I think they tend to lose quite a few people to other programs. One thing that may contribute to this is the lack of recruitment. During my interviews, there was no orientation and very little in the way of literature given out. The whole experience made me feel like I was on my own. Some students took me and the other student interviewing there that day out to lunch, but there were no other meals, social activities, accomodations, etc.

Other schools, in contrast, put much more effort into recruitment. I think UCLA would do well to follow suit.

Still, it's a great school and definitely has many advantages. If you are interested, I'd recommend talking to some current students to see what they think.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by USeF:
•Vader:

I've been reading your posts for over a year, ever since you were in the midst of applying and I can see your genuine commitment to both the career path of the academic physician and to assisting others as you have been assisted in the past. The excellent guidebook you and the others at UCSF's MSTP have created exemplifies these qualities. In my role as a pre-med advisor and mentor, be sure that I will be directing individuals interested in learning about mudphud to your page.

To make the site more 'marketable' and the address more memorable, check out the go.to webpage and get a shorter name to redirect (like go.to/mudphud). It works out real well, for an example check out the page I created with a group for a class project last semester: <a href="http://go.to/stemcell" target="_blank">http://go.to/stemcell</a> best seen at 1024*768 🙂 •••

Thanks so much for the kind words. Since the whole MD/PhD thing tends to be shrouded in mystery and there really isn't any literature currently available, I decided to write the guidebook. Thanks for the link--I'll try it. And nice site that you set up! 😀
Click to expand...
 
Baylor21:

I spoke with Brian today and learned that I'm still game for WashU despite my delay in sending my $100. The 2nd look weekend dates have been picked and stuff will be in the mail in about 1 week. The 1st date is March 22 and the 2nd date is April 12. I think I'll go for the April 12 one but I'm not yet certain.
 
Vader,

Very nice website! I was actually thinking of adding a MD/PhD advice page (based on my application experiences) to a Berkeley pre-med advice site...but I'll just pass on your link to them.

MapK
 
Originally posted by MAPKinkster:
•Vader,

Very nice website! I was actually thinking of adding a MD/PhD advice page (based on my application experiences) to a Berkeley pre-med advice site...but I'll just pass on your link to them.

MapK•••

Thanks! if you have any interview stories or any advice you want to add, please let me know. 🙂

As per USeF's advice, I linked the site up with an easier-to-remember URL:

<a href="http://go.to/mdphd" target="_blank">http://go.to/mdphd</a>

Happy browsing! 😀
Click to expand...
 
Hey everyone. I hope all has been well with all. Wow, you guys are an awesome bunch. I would be honored to be your colleague some day. As for me, I interviewed at Sinai MSTP a couple weeks ago (that's my second, Mayo was first). It seems like a pretty good up and coming program that's expanding rapidly. Apparently NIH has added a few more slots for them. Anyways, it's gonna a be a long climb for me -- but I hope things play out in the end. Good to see everyone is doing well. Take care. I'll keep you posted as things progress. Vader -- EXCELLENT SITE!! I wish I had the opportunity to see that last year. Oh yea one more thing. My paper got accepted right before Christmas (i'm first author).
 
JJ4:

Congrats on the paper! That's awesome 🙂
What kind of research do you do?
 
JJ4,
Congrats on the second interview and the paper! You'll have to give us the reference when it goes to print. 🙂 I liked Sinai a lot when I interviewed there--they definitely are expanding and the MSTP seems really well supported. NYC is also an amazing location. We'll all be keeping our fingers crossed. Definitely let the schools you are applying to know about your paper being accepted. Good luck!
 
JJ4: Congrats on the pub. My brother's ex-roommate is in her third year at the Sinai's MSTP, and she absolutely loves it there. I also have a good friend who is a fourth year med student, and he keeps egging me to come to Mount Sinai for med school. Of course, I kind of have to get in first. 😉 I also agree with Vader about letting all your schools know about your updated paper.

On another note, with all the acceptances floating around this thread, I was just curious where people have officially withdrawn from MSTP. The only reason that I ask is that I am still waiting on a few programs myself, and am starting to get a little curious/anxious as to whether I will here from them at all.
 
Hey Vader
Great site! I'm sure it's the only such resource available to aspiring muddphudders.

JJ4
Sweet men! sounds awesome to me. I'll be thrilled to get a 1st authorship 4 yrs from now. I second (or 3rd) that you update schools on the paper.

Shogun
I think I've withdrawn my apps from most of the 16 places I applied to except for Duke, WashU, Harvard, and Univ of Chicago. I'm blurry on the details though, so I'll need to do a thorough check ASAP.
 
Good to see so much banter going on on this thread. A lot of excellent advice from the one and only Vader, as well. I can't help but to be thrown back to those pre-med weed out classes when I see the posts from Derisive and socialist. People that are not out to do their best, but just to hope others do their worst are exactly the kind of people that kept me from telling people that I wanted to become a physician. I couldn't stand the tought of people pigeonholing me as a ruthless, negative person, so when i met people and they asked me what I wanted to do, I would shrug and say "I don't know yet." Someone said that when someone says "you can't", it's merely a projection of him or her saying "I can't". I couldn't agree more with that statement. As applicants. we should all support one another. There is no reason in the world to hope that others (whom we don't know) fail. Doing so is only our way of realizing our own failures. I'm not trying to get haughty, self-righteous or deep, I am just trying to remind everyone to stay positive and to be happy for others. Baylor, Original, Sar, MAPK, and all those acepted,- I coulnd't be happier for you guys. Just because these dream schools that you get to chose from don't like me as much, well, that's no reason to doubt any of you, your motivations, and especially my motivations.

Meanwhile, I can only play the waiting game and hope for the best, but expect the worst. sometimes my patience starts to run thin and it gets hard, but it is early in the game and hopefully I too will be receiving federal funding to become a physician scientist come this fall. And if any of you are interested in cardiac disease, maybe we'll collaborate someday.

Peace Out
Jesse
 
Well Candiria -- you're not alone in the waiting game -- welcome to the club. As for me, regardless of the thin envelope babble about the unbelievable competitiveness and the fact that everyone was looked at as a whole -- I am completely convinced it was my 10,10,10 that kept my foot out the door. I didn't take the GRE so all in all I probably don't look that great on paper. Anyhow -- I too am truly happy that I can be among such a wonderful group of colleagues. I hope things play out for the better for us. I've been playing at the bench for six years now and have met and made friends with individuals of tremendous caliber -- and have managed to eek out 4 papers. I just hope I can continue playing at the bench -- but this time under the umbrella of a good MD/PhD program. Interestingly I've made a lot of friends on the few MD/PhD interviews I've been on. Except for a select few -- everyone is really cool and down to earth. I guess we all know it's best to keep cool with eachother as we're all gonna be in the same boat for a long haul.
 
"I can't help but to be thrown back to those pre-med weed out classes when I see the posts from Derisive and socialist."

That's utter bs. Socialist and I are giving a perspective that is shared by many others in the medical and academic field. Believing it's all roses and tulips after getting an MD/PhD is fine, but if you're not willing to consider both the advantages _and_ the drawbacks of the MSTP program you're just being naive. What you should be asking yourself is, assuming that what we say is true, can you still make the most out of an MD/PhD and be a doctor/researcher? If the answer is yes, then congratulations, you've passed the test. These issues force you to think more about the career path that you have chosen, and that can't be a bad thing, right????
 
Originally posted by derisivewords:
•
That's utter bs. Socialist and I are giving a perspective that is shared by many others in the medical and academic field. Believing it's all roses and tulips after getting an MD/PhD is fine, but if you're not willing to consider both the advantages _and_ the drawbacks of the MSTP program you're just being naive. What you should be asking yourself is, assuming that what we say is true, can you still make the most out of an MD/PhD and be a doctor/researcher? If the answer is yes, then congratulations, you've passed the test. These issues force you to think more about the career path that you have chosen, and that can't be a bad thing, right????•••

Unfortunately, what you say is absolutely true regarding how some in the medical and scientific communities perceive MD/PhD training. This is something that the MD/PhD must contend with probably his/her whole career. Despite the stone age thoughts of some, I believe that both the general medical and scientific communities welcome highly-trained physician-scientists. This is, in fact, one reason MD/PhDs place so well for residency/fellowships after graduating from their programs. There are special K training grants that MD/PhDs can apply for that enable them to startup a laboratory, and the NIH has made no indication that it will drop this support any time soon. By all measures, MD/PhD graduates have been extremely successful at obtaining academic positions, securing funding, and publishing papers--all measures of scientific/career success. Some data on this can be found at the NIH website:
<a href="http://www.nigms.nih.gov/news/reports/mstpstudy/mstpstudy.html" target="_blank">http://www.nigms.nih.gov/news/reports/mstpstudy/mstpstudy.html</a>

Donna Fierro, a pediatric neurologist, successful scientific investigator, excellent teacher in our medical school, and mother of two, recently spoke here at a lunchtime meeting. To paraphrase what she said: the best examples of successful physician-scientists are ones who were able to develop clear-cut goals and focus their efforts.

I also agree that it is important, as in any decision, to weigh both the risks and benefits. Obviously, many people on this thread have done this already, as MD/PhD applicants tend to be a self-selected group, and tend to know at least a little about what they are getting themselves into. You're right though in that any given person should definitely think deeply about why they want to do this, preferably before applying.
Click to expand...
 
Derisive-

You are only inforcing my point. This thread is for those people interested in pursuing a career in academic medicine by first gaining admission to a MD/PhD program. You seem to have a negative attitude, as in you know exactly what outcomes may arise from completion of said program. There is no one here who has already gone through a MD/PhD program. Vader comes closest, as a first year MSTPer. Unless you have gone through a MD traing program, as well as a MD/PhD program, you cannot preach in the manner you are. We follow this thread to gain insights into a program, not to tell each other what is known to be the best path to any one goal. What you are expressing are your opinions, undoubtedly formed through interacting with MDs, MD/PhDs, PhDs, students and other pre-meds. I do not question any of these people nor do I question your rationale. What is at stake here is personal preference and the dreams and goals of individuals. None of know for sure the best path to a career in academic medicine. I am 110% sure that everyone out there can cite at least one MD, one MD/PhD, and one PhD that have careers that we are enviable of. Given this, it is only natural that we all have different opinions concerning the "best" educational path to follow to reach this goal. one of the only real concrete facts here is that an MD (even with a fellowship) does NOT equal a MD/PhD simply because of the PhD component. Doing a PhD is a long process typically involving 4+ years of original (no pun intended) research that ultimately results in the discovery of new facts. That is why many of us here want the dual degree- we enjoy research and we want that dedicated period in our life that will result in novel ideas. In earning a PhD a person changes the way that his/her mind works, and that is an additiona reason why MD/PhDs are often more successful in residencies, fellowships, obtaining grants, etc.

I can see that I just preached a bit too much. I did not mean to put anyone off. We've all had our share of advisors that tell us not to bother trying, so I aplogive for my pompous nature. Derisive- I hope I have not offended you in any way. I fully respect your opinions, intelligence, and speech. This banter has only gone to show why different opinions exist in training modalities.

I wish everyone the best of luck.
Peace Out
J
 
Hey don't get me wrong, I'm trying to decide whether I want to apply for an MSTP myself. But at least for me, I really need to know deep down that this is for me, and asking the most negative questions helps in that process.

BTW Candiria rocks! NYHC!
 
funny how people "rock" after they complement derisive and do their best job of dealing with his/her annoying ass.

advice for derisive: most people won't have the patience to take a mouthful of feces from you, smile, and reply softly, gently, and respectfully. in fact, most people (like me) will wipe it off of their faces, and shove it down your throat. 😡 😱 🙁 🙄 🙂 😀 😛 😎
 
hey Jesse -- hang in there bro. I too am still waiting to hear from many schools, though I have been fortunate enough to get acceptance at BU. Hope will keep you going.


The truth is, none of us completely predict the prospects of MD/PhDs in the future. The field changes rapidly, and though we can make certain predictions or judgements, no one (or I certainly can't) be absolutely certain whether the decision to pursue a combined degree will bring us what we hope for. For me, giving everything 100% of my effort is what keeps me going. I guess out of this whole crazy process, this attitude has kept my sanity. Thoughts?
 
Originally posted by A. Caveman:
•
advice for derisive: most people won't have the patience to take a mouthful of feces from you, smile, and reply softly, gently, and respectfully. in fact, most people (like me) will wipe it off of their faces, and shove it down your throat.•••

That's what the third year of medical school is all about, my friend... 😀
Click to expand...
 
A. Caveman:

Candiria is a hardcore/jazz/metalcore/grindcore band from NYC. They are my fave, and therefore are also my "nom de plume". Derisive just agrees with my impeccable taste in music, he's not kissing my a$$

Doraemon: I applied only MD to BU, but I was looking at their research faculty and am KICKING myself for not applying MD/PhD. I live right down the street from BU and am sooooooooper impressed with their facilities.

Peace
 
Hello all. I have not contributed for a long time.
I got my acceptance to Albert Einstein MSTP today, which made me very happy. Anyone else going there?
Btw, I highly regret not applying to "top" programs now, but I think I will have fun time in the Bronx, heh. At least I am staying in the city for another 8-10 years. 🙂.
 
Refuter,
Let me be the first to say CONGRATS! I was just curious, but was this the only MSTP you applied to?

Any body else with MSTP interviews coming up? My mailbox and e-mail have been disturbingly quiet the last few weeks.
 
Answering your question:
Well, lets see:
I applied to the following places:
SUNY Buffalo - accepted
SUNY Stony Brook - pending
Rochester - invited for interiview, but didnt go
UConn - invited for interview, but didnt go
UIC - they are e-mailing me every day, asking to come, but I dont htink I will.
NYU - i dont plan to go, and I applied early dec, and I hate the place, so i don't care
Boston U - accepted , but turned down.
Tufts - no word yet, and dont care
Mt. Sinai - no word yet,we'll see.

and Einstein - accepted and very happy.

Where did you apply or planning to ?
 
Refuter,
I am actually applying to do a PhD in Health Policy, which really limited my choices. I actually applied to a ton of schools for just regular MD. The schools I applied to for MD/PhD are the following:

UCLA
Michigan
Minnesota
Penn
U of Chicago
UNC Chapel Hill
 
have a question, do you actually have to take GRE aswell to apply for phd program with MD...
 
I was wondering what UC MSTPs people have interviewed at and if any UC MSTPs are anyone's top choice and which one and why.

When do the UCs stop interviewing for MSTP. I have only had one so far
 
Hi Refuter.

First, Congrats on your Einstein Acceptance . I am going to interview there next week and I really like the research they are doing there. Einstein is in the top-tier of my wish list.

A couple of questions.
When did you interview? How long did it take to hear back with the decission? Any recomemdations for my interview?

Thank you very much!

RetroMan
 
Hey RetroMan,

First, try to interview with people that understand your current research. They told you to call in, probably and give 6 choices. Well, then there will be two formal interviews, the rest are informal. Try to do your best on the formal ones, since they have a lot of say on the decision.
Know your research well. Be enthusiastic and you should do fine.
If anything e-mail me at [email protected]
and I will do what I can to answer any of your questions.
 
Originally posted by brandonite:
•Perhaps I can put this in front of you all.

I didn't qualify for MSTP funding at any schools (I'm Canadian) so if I do an MD/PhD it will be without full funding (except for the Canadian school, where I would get the Canadian equivalent of MSTP funding).

What do you guys think? Any opinions?•••

You can still get full funding as a non-us citizen. Look through the posts in this thread and find Sonic and Original's discussions about I-students getting MSTP's. They were both quite successful.
Click to expand...
 
I really don't know what's holding up Brandonite's application. His stats are not of this planet; and his research is impressive, rigorous, and unique. I really don't know 😕 but good luck.

For those that interviewed at Duke I just wanted to say that acceptances go out 1st week in March and 2nd look is April 4-6. I am so upset because I wouldn't be there. I have to be in Nigeria for my sister's wedding on April 6. oh well. whatever.
 
Did anyone interview at UCSD on the 17th and 18th? If so did you hear yet? I think today is the first day that we could hear. I was really impressed with their program, but that is because I am a neuroscience person.
 
I got an acceptance phone-call yesterday from University of Chicago. I went ahead and told them that I wouldn't be coming. I really liked the program. oh well. Back to work.
 
hi orig -

yeah i got in there too 🙂 although they first called the wrong number and i nearly had a nervous breakdown. anyway, so that's cool! i'm going to ucsd tomorrow. if i get into duke or penn, it's going to be a crazyhard decision. i have no clue as to what my chances are but i'm no longer panicked about the whole thing since i really loved chicago. anyway, just wanted to say hi - anyone else out there who is a uchicago fan?

=D

sar
 
Hey Sar520! Congrats on Chicago. I'm definitely going to miss that program and the director too. Have fun in San Diego. Take a camera by all means. SD is the most beautiful city I've ever seen. I hope you get into Duke. I'm pretty confident you will anyhow. Good luck at UCSD.
 
Hey all,

Just got back in town to find out that I'd gotten a few new interview invites...that's always nice, isn't it. I finally got the invites to Stanford's (I'll be there on the 11th if anyone else is happening on going then too) and Northwestern's MSTP. Utah also wrote me back and they now say they'll pay for my flight out there (I had told them that I couldn't afford to come out), which is kinda cool too. Of course, Northwestern had to wait until I moved back to California from Illinois. I'm not sure I'm going to go to that interview since I'll have to pay for tickets. Has anyone else visited Northwestern? If so, what did you think of the place? Is it worth going?

I also took a second look at UCLA. Man, the campus sure is nice, and the school is great...but I just don't know if I could stand to live in LA for 8 years.

Of course, I still haven't heard from UCSF. I'm starting to get a little worried about them, because other people have started to get decisions and I still haven't heard anything. Oh, well.

Anyhow, good luck to all...this process is obviously far from over.

Adam
 
hey rumit, when was your app for stanford mstp completed? Did they notify you via email or snail mail?

tia
chef
 
Originally posted by chef:
•hey rumit, when was your app for stanford mstp completed? Did they notify you via email or snail mail?

tia
chef•••

My app was complete quite late, on 12/3/01. And, I was notified on 1/23/02 via email. I still haven't received anything in the mailbox. It's very annoying too, because they don't give you their office phone number, and tell you to correspond via email only...something I don't really like to do. Oh, well...they're Stanford, they can do whatever they want, I guess.

Good luck,

Adam
Click to expand...
 
I Just want to bump this up and add the 600th post! By the way I'll be going to my second MD/PhD interview x(). Please keep them coming!

RetroMan
 
Adam:
Wow! that is nice. Stanford? Cool. Looks like you've gotten interview invites to almost every school you applied to. Congrats men.

RetroMan; When it rains it pours. Congrats!
 
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