MSTP decisions: help me decide!

[James Wormold]

here's the choice: MSTP at Case Western or at U of Colorado. I like the research opportunities more at Case (some of the best cardiovascular anywhere at the Cleveland Clinic, which is the field I've enjoyed working in for several years now), and their Match list was especially impressive. Working with some of those people, papers in JCI, NEJM, etc, are a real possibility. But I'm an outdoors guy (especially technical mountain climbing & other dangerous/dumb things), so Colorado would be a LOT more fun. I have friends there, and it's much closer to family. As far as I can tell, there are some really excellent scientists in Boulder...they're just on the very basic/model organisms side of things. In that case I would just wait until my fellowshop to get the disease-oriented research training, which is ok. My goal is to get into a top internal medicine residency => fellowship (maybe cards or heme, but who knows) => and then open lab and pipet professionally with some patient care for added fun. I am extremely committed to this career...so I am willing to go to the less desireable location if it would be best in the long-term...I just don't know if this is in fact the case.

So what do people think? I'm especially curious what people thing of Colorado's reputation (for Matching). How much does that even matter for Match?

Thanks so much for the help!

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[Doctor&Geek]

You have to answer three questions:

1) Which institution is in an area which you would enjoy more than the other?

You've answered this.

2) Which institution is better for your career?

My suggestion is: make a list of people you would be excited to work for in your PhD years. If you don't think you can be excited about at least two or three folks at Colorado, I think you ought to go to Case - it does you no good if your PhD years are miserable or unproductive.

As far as the match goes, if you want to compare apples-to-apples, consider only the history of the MSTP graduates only, not the rest of the school.
http://www.uchsc.edu/sm/mstp/graduates.html
http://mstp.cwru.edu/People/Alumni/alumns.asp
I think its pretty obvious that both programs match their graduates really well, which is true for just about all MD/PhD programs. I don't think you should be worried too much at all about matching well if you complete both degrees and do well in medical school.

3) What is more important to you, career, or enjoyment of life?

We can't answer that for you, only you can.

I think its laudable that you have ambitious goals this early in your career. However, let me also suggest that career goals can change, and certainly you shouldn't make decisions about clinical specialty and future research career until at least you worked in the wards.

Best of luck.

 

[hardy]

I like the research opportunities more at Case (some of the best cardiovascular anywhere at the Cleveland Clinic, which is the field I've enjoyed working in for several years now), and their Match list was especially impressive. Working with some of those people, papers in JCI, NEJM, etc, are a real possibility.

Your research possibilities is the only thing that matters for MD/PhD. The research you do CAN be what makes or breaks your future research success. Just imagine having to do a 3-4 year PhD in a lab that you don't really like, sounds awful. You will not have that much time for outdoors stuff anyway and whenever you do you can just travel somewhere for the weekend.

 

[Daewoo]

An article I read on another thread a few weeks ago:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/education/article/0,1299,DRMN_957_4558192,00.html

Make of it what you like but Case is in a completely different league!

 

[Doctor&Geek]

I think that's a bit of an unfair assessment, considering that Wieman works in physics and that the Denver biomedical campus is a separate entity from that at Boulder. This is irrelevant, but it's not as if Case has Nobel Prize winners to start with, either.

 

[JohnDough]

As someone for whom the variables are switched (i.e. Case would be closer to family, Colorado has research opportunities I prefer), I have to concur with Doctor & Geek as far as saying that research opportunities seem, at least to me, to be crucial deciding factors. Having spent quite a bit of time looking at what the general SDN populace would consider some of the more "middle tier" schools (which, in an MSTP sense, is a ludicrous distinction), I've come to the conclusion that two things, for me, are guiding the decision making process: 1) schools that don't have 1,000,000 faculty members are going to have less people working in any given field and so it is key (if you have some idea of what you want to do) to get a feel for whether you would be able to find the type of mentor you want (what they do, what's the dept culture, talking to students/directors about whether they recommend mentors in the dept) and 2) the general gestalt of the place because your residency is going to be based upon your grades, boards, pubs: general success, and you have slightly less margin for error (i.e. all things being equal, slightly lower grades, boards at Harvard will be less of a detractor than low grades at Case) - and ultimately whether or not you think you'll thrive at a place is our only real metric (whether totally predictive or not) of that after you've talked to everyone at a program.

Bottom line: You're a smart guy, do well at any MSTP and you'll have a shot at getting residencies that you want. The career afterwards is incredibly tough, so go where you think you'll prepare yourself best to deal with the ruthless world of academics/corporations/private practice/

For me? While Case has some great faculty that I could have worked with, Colorado is particularly strong in the department I want to work in, and my research indicates that the department focus, atmosphere, philosophy, and the mentor attitudes are what I want. I also felt I could thrive in Colorado and was less jazzed about Cleveland. Gravy. Now it's just piecing out Colorado vs. the other schools (oy).

Oh - and the Colorado-money-Nobel kvetching-athletics-state funding stuff. If you're really concerned about it, talk to the director of the program and get his take. Case is going through some transitions too (i.e. leadership transitions) - and you should talk to the director at Case about that. On SDN, any given issue/article will develop a polarized, unhelpful response: "If you go to Colorado now, you might as well go to law school because that's the scientific training you'll receive" or "I love Colorado no matter what!!!!!!"

In these situations, go right to the source and ask the horse. He'll give you the answer that you'll endorse.

 

[xanthines]

We don't know you, so it's hard to evaluate how much the lack of outdoorsy stuff in Cleveland will affect you. I'm a current Case MSTPer and one of my med school friends (ie non-MD/PhD) is from Boulder and misses it. In fact, I would even go so far to say that he hates Cleveland. On the other hand, Case is moving in the general direction of being more academic across the board which is something he's not interested in either. The new dean wants the school to be more on par with the likes of Harvard, JHU, WashU, etc etc. Yes, he is quite ambitious!

In the end, I think you'll be able to aacomplish your goals of being a professional pipetter (with patient care as a hobby) no matter which school you pick. One school may make it easier like more research opportunities at Case or just a better living environment in Colorado (you'll probably work better if you're happier).

So after enough of that "only you can decide" crap, here's my opinion. Come to Case. You can always take a trip out to Colorado when you want/need to. The stipend goes a long way here due to the low cost of living and the research opportunities sound like they'd offer you a lot. The Dean of the medical school is very student-oriented and the MSTP director is as well. Other than being in a somewhat boring city, Case is pretty cool.

-X

 

[Doctor&Geek]

I concur with the far more articulate response of JohnDough, especially with the suggestion that you should consider bringing your concerns tactfully to the directors of the programs you are considering. I don't know the director at Case, but Gutierrez-Hartman at Colorado seemed like a pretty approachable guy from our site visit.

Good luck.

 

[James Wormold]

Thanks for the thoughts...especially the opinions. What I was really hoping for is how other people think through the 'I like this school more, but that location more' impasse - so it's nice to hear from someone else in a similar situation.

The "Colorado-money-Nobel kvetching-athletics-state funding stuff" at hasn't made even made iit onto my radar, I'm not worried about that. Likewise, the ambitions of Case's new Dean aren't a big deal to me. To me, being happy is the most important thing. In college I didn't get to do as much outdoors stuff as I would have liked, but I got through it OK - it would just be really nice to get to do more of that stuff...once M3 hits there probably won't be much time for it for many years. But whether having exactly what I want in terms of location versus lab is more important, I don't know. I'll be in lab all the time anyway, righ? I guess just have to think about it some more...but what a great dilemma to have!

 

[Neuronix]

I'll be in lab all the time anyway, righ?

My old PI used to say this about location. You'll be too busy to care. Was he ever wrong... Maybe my career is science is doomed because I don't spend 80+ hours/week at it, but I'd rather spend 40 hours/week at something and enjoy the world.

My opinion: Go to Colorado. Location means alot for 8 years of your life. If you do stay in academia, you'll probably lose your ability to pick where you work for most of your life so you should use your location determining abilities now. When you're done, you'll end up with whatever residency and fellowship that you want from CWRU or Colorado. This will ensure that your career will continue no matter which place you choose. As long as you don't have picky tastes in science I'm sure you'll find a nice lab.

 

[beetlerum]

I totally agree. Life is short. Always think long and hard about sacrificing location for eight years, especially when you'll likely have to make those sacrifices in the future. Personally, I think location, friends, family, etc. are the things that affect your happiness most, not whether you've maximized lab opportunities.

My old PI used to say this about location. You'll be too busy to care. Was he ever wrong... Maybe my career is science is doomed because I don't spend 80+ hours/week at it, but I'd rather spend 40 hours/week at something and enjoy the world.

My opinion: Go to Colorado. Location means alot for 8 years of your life. If you do stay in academia, you'll probably lose your ability to pick where you work for most of your life so you should use your location determining abilities now. When you're done, you'll end up with whatever residency and fellowship that you want from CWRU or Colorado. This will ensure that your career will continue no matter which place you choose. As long as you don't have picky tastes in science I'm sure you'll find a nice lab.

 

[cadilakgrl]

I totally agree. Life is short. Always think long and hard about sacrificing location for eight years, especially when you'll likely have to make those sacrifices in the future. Personally, I think location, friends, family, etc. are the things that affect your happiness most, not whether you've maximized lab opportunities.

I second bettlerum and neuronix.

Picking one school over the other for research would be hard unless you are very focused in the type of research you want to do and have a particular lab in mind. Even if you were to go to Case because you decided they had better "research opportunities" you may find out that the lab you thought was so great sucks, the PI is not a good mentor, or you change your mind about the type of research you want to do. Personally I think you would probably have equal research opportunities at Case and Colorado. It's up to you to choose a good lab and mentor once you get there.

I also think happiness depends a lot on location. If you do get stuck in a crappy lab or you're not getting any data and you start to get depressed, where would you rather be? Skiing and hiking in Colorado like you mentioned, or stuck in Ohio drinking beer, and drinking beer (just kidding I'm from the Midwest so don't take it personally).