MSTP versus MD

[appleluver7]

In terms of competitiveness for admissions, which is harder MSTP or MD? I assume MSTP, but in some sense if you are really qualified for a PHD and less so for an MD, wouldn't an MSTP program be a little less competitive overall because half of their decision might be based on the MD qualifications and half on the PHD? I don't know what I'm talking about at all on this issue, but I was just curious if MSTP students had equal credentials as MD students.

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[coco11]

It seems successful MD/PhD candidates generally have higher MCAT scores than MD candidates.

 

[xanthomondo]

normally the MD/PhD student needs to be accepted to BOTH schools, so it should be harder

an MD/PhD's application probably looks a little different, you need to have a lot of research experience, something not crucial (but certaintly helpful) for MD

 

[relentless11]

In terms of competitiveness for admissions, which is harder MSTP or MD? I assume MSTP, but in some sense if you are really qualified for a PHD and less so for an MD, wouldn't an MSTP program be a little less competitive overall because half of their decision might be based on the MD qualifications and half on the PHD? I don't know what I'm talking about at all on this issue, but I was just curious if MSTP students had equal credentials as MD students.

This is inaccurate thinking. You have to be admitted to the MD program FIRST before being accepted to the MSTP. Therefore at the VERY least, its as hard as applying to an MD program. In reality it is many times harder to be an MSTP since you are competing for very few slots, get tuition paid for, and receive a salary.

A while back, UCSF posted the stats for their MSTP, and the average MCAT was 34, while the average GPA was 3.7-3.8. These students all have some larger amount of research experience compared to your standard MD applicant. Since the class size is so small, I would speculate that the standard deviation for these mean MCAT/GPA values is pretty small.

So yea, why would it be easier to get into a program where you get two doctorate degrees, and the school actually PAYS YOU to do it?

 

[hateroftheyear]

MSTP applicants are a highly self-selected bunch. The raw percentages of individuals accepted is actually higher for MSTP vs. MD-only, but the applicant statistics are jacked into the stratosphere. Hopefully, it's not TOO bad this year ...

 

[strawberryfield]

MSTP applicants are a highly self-selected bunch. The raw percentages of individuals accepted is actually higher for MSTP vs. MD-only, but the applicant statistics are jacked into the stratosphere. Hopefully, it's not TOO bad this year ...

hey, looking @ your MDApps profile, it doesn't look like you have much to worry about! good luck!

 

[Brookstacular]

Is it possible to apply for an MD/PhD program and say not get in to the PhD program but get into MD only and just drop the research part of it or is it an all or nothing application?

 

[airflare]

Most schools who reject you from MD/PhD will auomatically send your file for MD-only review. A few do not. So it varies from school to school and you will have to do some digging to figure out each school's policy.

The main MD/PhD programs are called MST Programs, which are NIH-funded programs that cover tuition and stipend for students. You are allowed to drop the PhD portion--and therefore out of the program--to finish only the MD, but it is extremely frowned upon. Don't expect to get glowing recommendation letters from the faculty when you apply for residencies if you drop the PhD without a good reason.

 

[SeventhSon]

MSTP is marginally more competitve than MD, especially when you are talking about top-tier schools, where many fine MD candidates probably could havedone the MSTP and simply didnt want to. The thing is, MSTP is much more numbers and credential based and much less focused on the "fluffy" stuff, like your life experiences and how "special" or "unique" of a person you are. So in that respect, outcomes are at least much more predictable than for MD admissions.

 

[appleluver7]

MSTP is marginally more competitve than MD, especially when you are talking about top-tier schools, where many fine MD candidates probably could havedone the MSTP and simply didnt want to. The thing is, MSTP is much more numbers and credential based and much less focused on the "fluffy" stuff, like your life experiences and how "special" or "unique" of a person you are. So in that respect, outcomes are at least much more predictable than for MD admissions.

I am not interested in basic science MSTP programs. I'm more interested in learning about non-traditional ones, where you could get a PhD in sociology for instance and then an MD. Are these as competitive? Also, I don't really understand...could you just do the PhD separately? I mean, I know a friend who took after M2 to do a PhD returned for year 3 but wasn't MD-PhD per se.

 

[penguinophile]

Most schools who reject you from MD/PhD will auomatically send your file for MD-only review. A few do not. So it varies from school to school and you will have to do some digging to figure out each school's policy.

The main MD/PhD programs are called MST Programs, which are NIH-funded programs that cover tuition and stipend for students. You are allowed to drop the PhD portion--and therefore out of the program--to finish only the MD, but it is extremely frowned upon. Don't expect to get glowing recommendation letters from the faculty when you apply for residencies if you drop the PhD without a good reason.

I would just like to add to this that if you do apply MSTP or MD/PhD, do not just sit back and wait for the MD-only review of your app. If you are getting antsy, you should definitely call and find out the status. Sometimes it is just being put back into the MD/PhD pool and continually rejected, only to be put with the MDs in the very last pool, which is going to be the hardest and with the least flexibility for interviews.
Also, some schools like Vandy require that you request it by sometime in october/november, so you really need to make sure that the schools know that you really want MD consideration too.

 

[SeventhSon]

On that note let me note that Penn and Hopkins definitely do not consider you MD only if you are an MD/PhD app.

UCLA is even more ******ed. If you were invited for an interview for MSTP and rejected, they will consider you for MD only. If you were invited for an interview and waitlisted for MSTP (like me), you are not considered for MD only. The dual-review process is filled with stupid idiosyncracies.

I would just like to add to this that if you do apply MSTP or MD/PhD, do not just sit back and wait for the MD-only review of your app. If you are getting antsy, you should definitely call and find out the status. Sometimes it is just being put back into the MD/PhD pool and continually rejected, only to be put with the MDs in the very last pool, which is going to be the hardest and with the least flexibility for interviews.
Also, some schools like Vandy require that you request it by sometime in october/november, so you really need to make sure that the schools know that you really want MD consideration too.

 

[Evil Monkey]

There has been plenty of discussion on this matter before. Check out this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2848251#post2848251

It includes some number crunching of particular schools and a study that was conducted on the 2003 applicant pool.

 

[hateroftheyear]

On that note let me note that Penn and Hopkins definitely do not consider you MD only if you are an MD/PhD app.

UCLA is even more ******ed. If you were invited for an interview for MSTP and rejected, they will consider you for MD only. If you were invited for an interview and waitlisted for MSTP (like me), you are not considered for MD only. The dual-review process is filled with stupid idiosyncracies.

I'm not sure about Penn, but the Hopkins MD/PhD website specifically states that (as of recently) candidates who are rejected MSTP may be recommended for consideration by the MD-only pool, and that this is often the case.

 

[Neuronix]

The op's point is well taken and I think it can sometimes be the case that someone is better qualified for MD/PhD than MD. In response to some other things posted here, at the majority of schools you are considered by the MD/PhD program and accepted by them. Rarely does the MD program have to accept you first or even have any real say (unless they are REALLY TURNED OFF by you for some reason) except at a few schools. As for Hopkins, unless things have changed since I applied 4 years ago, the MD/PhD committee has to forward your application to the MD side for consideration. That rarely happens, and just like at Penn very very rarely does someone who applied MD/PhD get in MD only even though it's possible in theory. Applying to MD/PhD will hurt your chances at MD, but applying MD and MD/PhD will also hurt your chances at both, so just pick one and go for it.

These topics have all been beaten to death in the MD/PhD forum...

 

[mjc48]

I am not interested in basic science MSTP programs. I'm more interested in learning about non-traditional ones, where you could get a PhD in sociology for instance and then an MD. Are these as competitive? Also, I don't really understand...could you just do the PhD separately? I mean, I know a friend who took after M2 to do a PhD returned for year 3 but wasn't MD-PhD per se.

what you are looking for is an md/phd, not an mstp. there is a big difference in the latitude you receive in the research component of your training when the gov't isn't covering your tuition.

 

[Caristra]

MSTP applicants are a highly self-selected bunch. The raw percentages of individuals accepted is actually higher for MSTP vs. MD-only, but the applicant statistics are jacked into the stratosphere. Hopefully, it's not TOO bad this year ...

I second that hope