MSUCOM vs SGU

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gottadream

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Before you all start bashing out, consider my situation. I am a Canadian (therefore tuition is roughly the same for both). My goal is to land in an allopathic General Surgery residency. I understand they will be merging in 2015 but will DO's still be discriminated against?
By looking at these stats:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

There are actually more non-US IMG landing surgery than DO's.
Which route is better?! I know MSUCOM is a respected DO school but when it comes to surgical residencies, are DO's less favoured in this case? I would appreciate any feedback as this has really been stressing me out. It is a big decision and I can't seem to sit on a decision. Thanks
 
gottadream said:
Before you all start bashing out, consider my situation. I am a Canadian (therefore tuition is roughly the same for both). My goal is to land in an allopathic General Surgery residency. I understand they will be merging in 2015 but will DO's still be discriminated against?
By looking at these stats:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

There are actually more non-US IMG landing surgery than DO's.
Which route is better?! I know MSUCOM is a respected DO school but when it comes to surgical residencies, are DO's less favoured in this case? I would appreciate any feedback as this has really been stressing me out. It is a big decision and I can't seem to sit on a decision. Thanks
Click to expand...

MSUCOM is one of the best medical schools, MD or DO, in the nation. It ranks higher than it's brother MSUCHM and is the strongest, next to U of M, school in the state of Michigan.

The question you should be asking yourself is not if you should attend SGU over MSUCOM, rather you should be asking what apartment should you need to get for next year, where to pay down deposits, etc.

Go to SGU, let someone who wants a spot get one at MSUCOM.
 
With the merger all residencies will be considered equivalent, so when you say "allopathic general surgery," it doesn't make any sense since all residencies will carry the same benefits. If you're talking about specific programs, that's another story.

I also think you should go to SGU because the spot should be left to someone that genuinely wants to be (or prefers over Caribbean) a DO.
 
I never understood this "don't take a DO spot if you don't actually want to be a DO" mentality.

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MedPR said:
I never understood this "don't take a DO spot if you don't actually want to be a DO" mentality.

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Click to expand...

I think it's less of a serious suggestions and more of a "if you love it so much, why don't you marry it?" sort of thing.
 
Canadian brother,

Here are a few things to consider: MSUCOM is in MI, and we rotate at hospitals (over 30 base to choose from) where residencies are offered. MSUCOM is well respected in both MD and DO worlds, and MI is a very DO friendly state. You will be able to make connections in clinical years, and you will have research opportunities after the summer of 1st year to buff up your residency application. If you check out MSUCOMs residency matches, you will see a good chunk actually goes into surgery. Given the fact that we will need a residency willing to sponsor us a visa, you want to make sure you go to a school that will maximize your chances of getting you into a program that sponsors visas. SGU may appear to send more students into surgery, but we have to look at %ages here. MSUCOM, hands down.
 
ModernAlchemist said:
I think it's less of a serious suggestions and more of a "if you love it so much, why don't you marry it?" sort of thing.
Click to expand...

Idk. I think some people want DO to be special and reserved for only those who prefer DO to MD.

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MedPR said:
I never understood this "don't take a DO spot if you don't actually want to be a DO" mentality.

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Click to expand...

If you do not want to be a DO, do not go to DO school. If you do not want to be a DDS, dont go to Dental school. If you do not want to get a _______, do not go to _______ school
 
docmayer said:
Canadian brother,

Here are a few things to consider: MSUCOM is in MI, and we rotate at hospitals (over 30 base to choose from) where residencies are offered. MSUCOM is well respected in both MD and DO worlds, and MI is a very DO friendly state. You will be able to make connections in clinical years, and you will have research opportunities after the summer of 1st year to buff up your residency application. If you check out MSUCOMs residency matches, you will see a good chunk actually goes into surgery. Given the fact that we will need a residency willing to sponsor us a visa, you want to make sure you go to a school that will maximize your chances of getting you into a program that sponsors visas. SGU may appear to send more students into surgery, but we have to look at %ages here. MSUCOM, hands down.
Click to expand...

👍 If you want to land a residency in the US, any residency at all, you are best served going to a school in the US. Especially now that all US residencies will be ACGME approved you should have no problem going back to Canada to practice if that is what you want (many Canadian provinces did not accept AOA residencies).
 
Maybe it is because those who badmouth the DO route and are holding an acceptance or are attending an osteo school is tough to stomach when so many would be happy to have have the opportunity to study medicine anywhere in the US (MD or DO).
 
MedPR said:
Idk. I think some people want DO to be special and reserved for only those who prefer DO to MD.

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Click to expand...
It's okay if you prefer an MD school, but if you prefer Caribbean over DO, why not go to the Caribbean instead of being unhappy with the DO after your name?
 
Are you trying to do a residency in the US or do you want to return to Canada? Might that make a difference?
 
MedPR said:
Idk. I think some people want DO to be special and reserved for only those who prefer DO to MD.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
Click to expand...

it isn't so much as "go DO vs. MD." it is usually a comment related to "i got accepted DO, should i do something incredibly stupid to try for the MD."
 
TwinsFan said:
Maybe it is because those who badmouth the DO route and are holding an acceptance or are attending an osteo school is tough to stomach when so many would be happy to have have the opportunity to study medicine anywhere in the US (MD or DO).
Click to expand...

I get that, but why should they give up their spot just to make someone else happy? They earned the DO spot and it's irrelevant that someone an adcom(s) deemed less competitive wants it more. I'm sure I want to be a physician way more than at least one kid in Harvard's 2017 class. That doesn't mean they should give me their spot.


TriagePreMed said:
It's okay if you prefer an MD school, but if you prefer Caribbean over DO, why not go to the Caribbean instead of being unhappy with the DO after your name?
Click to expand...

I didn't get that from the op. I thought they were just trying to figure out which would best position them for the match.

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FrkyBgStok said:
it isn't so much as "go DO vs. MD." it is usually a comment related to "i got accepted DO, should i do something incredibly stupid to try for the MD."
Click to expand...

I understand. The op doesn't seem to be heading down that route though . They seem to think the fact that there are more IMGs than DOs in surg programs means that IMGs have better odds (I'm assuming there are more IMGs because more apply compared to DO). It seems legit to me for someone to ask about the better route to get where they ultimately want to me.

Usually I'm the first one to jump on a dumb op, but I think this one is genuinely confused/misinformed.

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MedPR said:
I get that, but why should they give up their spot just to make someone else happy? They earned the DO spot and it's irrelevant that someone an adcom(s) deemed less competitive wants it more. I'm sure I want to be a physician way more than at least one kid in Harvard's 2017 class. That doesn't mean they should give me their spot.
Click to expand...

I agree.

However, the problem is when people "take the spots" who don't want them. They are able to fake it through their interviews even though they have have no interest or intention of attending, then they openly complain about what many would be happy with, an acceptance to a US medical school. This can rub people the wrong way.

It doesn't mean they should be forced to give up their seat.
 
I still don't get basing so much off the match list. There's so much more that goes into it than the quality and capability of a school to get you into a specific specialty.
 
TwinsFan said:
I agree.

However, the problem is when people "take the spots" who don't want them. They are able to fake it through their interviews even though they have have no interest or intention of attending, then they openly complain about what many would be happy with, an acceptance to a US medical school. This can rub people the wrong way.

It doesn't mean they should be forced to give up their seat.
Click to expand...

That's true.

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DO > Carib on many levels including clinical rotations and chances of matching into desired specialty in location you want and so on.

But there are thousands of good, competent physicians that are Carib grads (speaking Big 4 here). I work with many of them everyday and I know that if I don't get in stateside, I will give the Big 4 a shot.

Good luck!
 
Thanks for the responses everyone.
I just want to make something clear (which some of you already picked up on): This is absolutely NOT a dilemma regarding me not being sure if I want MD or DO. I respect both branches and absolutely love what I have seen and learned about MSUCOM. This is about me being concerned about my future goals. I obviously would much rather live in Michigan and go to an American school. Especially MSUCOM. The issue is: I've seen the data indicating that DO students are less likely to land a surgery residency and that is what has scared me. I DO NOT prefer sgu. But what I'm wondering is, does sgu give me the better opportunity to get the residency I am aiming for (general surg).
docmayer made a good point about the percentages and I was oblivious to the fact that sgu's stats are for 1000+ students.
I hope I did not offend anyone as I had no intention what so ever of doing so. Not a DO vs. Carib debate. Just a debate about which route would best lead me to the residency I desire.
Thank you all for the insight.
 
gottadream said:
Thanks for the responses everyone.
I just want to make something clear (which some of you already picked up on): This is absolutely NOT a dilemma regarding me not being sure if I want MD or DO. I respect both branches and absolutely love what I have seen and learned about MSUCOM. This is about me being concerned about my future goals. I obviously would much rather live in Michigan and go to an American school. Especially MSUCOM. The issue is: I've seen the data indicating that DO students are less likely to land a surgery residency and that is what has scared me. I DO NOT prefer sgu. But what I'm wondering is, does sgu give me the better opportunity to get the residency I am aiming for (general surg).
docmayer made a good point about the percentages and I was oblivious to the fact that sgu's stats are for 1000+ students.
I hope I did not offend anyone as I had no intention what so ever of doing so. Not a DO vs. Carib debate. Just a debate about which route would best lead me to the residency I desire.
Thank you all for the insight.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind the visa issue, as well as MSUs research opportunities, and their clinical rotations.
 
gottadream said:
Thanks for the responses everyone.
I just want to make something clear (which some of you already picked up on): This is absolutely NOT a dilemma regarding me not being sure if I want MD or DO. I respect both branches and absolutely love what I have seen and learned about MSUCOM. This is about me being concerned about my future goals. I obviously would much rather live in Michigan and go to an American school. Especially MSUCOM. The issue is: I've seen the data indicating that DO students are less likely to land a surgery residency and that is what has scared me. I DO NOT prefer sgu. But what I'm wondering is, does sgu give me the better opportunity to get the residency I am aiming for (general surg).
docmayer made a good point about the percentages and I was oblivious to the fact that sgu's stats are for 1000+ students.
I hope I did not offend anyone as I had no intention what so ever of doing so. Not a DO vs. Carib debate. Just a debate about which route would best lead me to the residency I desire.
Thank you all for the insight.
Click to expand...

I haven't actually looked at the data, but are you sure that the chances (matched vs applied) are better for caribMD? I wouldn't be surprised if there are more caribMD on ACGME spots, but I will be surprised if they have a better match rate than DOs.

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My mistake then. The answer is pretty unclear because of the amount of students and the programs, but there are a few traditionally allopathic programs that have taken DO students. However, ever since the merger, going to a traditionally DO program will not be a problem since it will be as ACGME as any other program. Personally, I'd go the DO route. Going to a 3rd world country because maybe a few MD programs might prefer them is not worthwhile when the DO programs will have the same accreditation.

gottadream said:
Thanks for the responses everyone.
I just want to make something clear (which some of you already picked up on): This is absolutely NOT a dilemma regarding me not being sure if I want MD or DO. I respect both branches and absolutely love what I have seen and learned about MSUCOM. This is about me being concerned about my future goals. I obviously would much rather live in Michigan and go to an American school. Especially MSUCOM. The issue is: I've seen the data indicating that DO students are less likely to land a surgery residency and that is what has scared me. I DO NOT prefer sgu. But what I'm wondering is, does sgu give me the better opportunity to get the residency I am aiming for (general surg).
docmayer made a good point about the percentages and I was oblivious to the fact that sgu's stats are for 1000+ students.
I hope I did not offend anyone as I had no intention what so ever of doing so. Not a DO vs. Carib debate. Just a debate about which route would best lead me to the residency I desire.
Thank you all for the insight.
Click to expand...
 
gottadream said:
Thanks for the responses everyone.
I just want to make something clear (which some of you already picked up on): This is absolutely NOT a dilemma regarding me not being sure if I want MD or DO. I respect both branches and absolutely love what I have seen and learned about MSUCOM. This is about me being concerned about my future goals. I obviously would much rather live in Michigan and go to an American school. Especially MSUCOM. The issue is: I've seen the data indicating that DO students are less likely to land a surgery residency and that is what has scared me. I DO NOT prefer sgu. But what I'm wondering is, does sgu give me the better opportunity to get the residency I am aiming for (general surg).
docmayer made a good point about the percentages and I was oblivious to the fact that sgu's stats are for 1000+ students.
I hope I did not offend anyone as I had no intention what so ever of doing so. Not a DO vs. Carib debate. Just a debate about which route would best lead me to the residency I desire.
Thank you all for the insight.
Click to expand...

In 2012, there were 4279 USIMG acgme applicants. 49.1% matched. Of the 2102 that matched, 59 matched general surgery.

In 2012, there were 4623 DO graduates. 2,360 applied for Acgme residencies and 74% of them matched. Of the 1,764 that matched in the Acgme match, 36 went into Acgme gen surgery. There were an additional 108 DOs that matched AOA general surgery.

108+36/4623 = 3.1% of DOs in 2012 matched general surgery
59/4279 = 1.3% for all USIMGs ( SGU might have better odds, I don't know)
914/16,527 = 5.5% of all USMDs match general surgery in 2012

In 2012, 108 matched AOA general surgery, 2271 DOs participated in the AOA match that year. 108/2271 = 4.7%
 
Last edited:
docmayer said:
Canadian brother,

Here are a few things to consider: MSUCOM is in MI, and we rotate at hospitals (over 30 base to choose from) where residencies are offered. MSUCOM is well respected in both MD and DO worlds, and MI is a very DO friendly state. You will be able to make connections in clinical years, and you will have research opportunities after the summer of 1st year to buff up your residency application. If you check out MSUCOMs residency matches, you will see a good chunk actually goes into surgery. Given the fact that we will need a residency willing to sponsor us a visa, you want to make sure you go to a school that will maximize your chances of getting you into a program that sponsors visas. SGU may appear to send more students into surgery, but we have to look at %ages here. MSUCOM, hands down.
Click to expand...

great point. MI is arguably the most DO friendly state in the country. As of January 2010, the total number of physicians licensed in Michigan was 43,562. Of these,
32,043 are doctors of allopathic medicine (MD) and 6,753 are doctors of osteopathic medicine (DO). (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/h...ter/2010SurveyOfPhysiciansReport_345135_7.pdf). Of the 26,325 active physicians in Michigan, 4,727 of them are DOs. That's 18%. (https://www.aamc.org/download/263512/data/statedata2011.pdf) That's enormous! Michigan is one of the top four states with the greatest DO per capita in the country!

cliquesh said:
In 2012, there were 4279 USIMG acgme applicants. 49.1% matched. Of the 2102 that matched, 59 matched general surgery.

In 2012, there were 4623 DO graduates. 2,360 applied for Acgme residencies and 74% of them matched. Of the 1,764 that matched in the Acgme match, 36 went into Acgme gen surgery. There were an additional 108 DOs that matched AOA general surgery.

108+36/4623 = 3.1% of DOs in 2012 matched general surgery
59/4279 = 1.3% for all USIMGs ( SGU might have better odds, I don't know)
914/16,527 = 5.5% of all USMDs match general surgery in 2012

In 2012, 108 matched AOA general surgery, 2271 DOs participated in the AOA match that year. 108/2271 = 4.7%
Click to expand...

Thank you for this post. Clearly, based on DO vs. USIMG stats you can see that DO students favor better in the match.

As for MSUCOM vs. SGU, this isn't even a question. Unless you want 'MD,' choose MSUCOM. It is well-recognized in osteopathic AND allopathic worlds, pre-clinical AND clinical education will be better, match history is much much better... I rotate with SGU students and they are more worried about getting a residency, period, let alone getting into gen surg.
 
pattr said:
great point. MI is arguably the most DO friendly state in the country. As of January 2010, the total number of physicians licensed in Michigan was 43,562. Of these,
32,043 are doctors of allopathic medicine (MD) and 6,753 are doctors of osteopathic medicine (DO). (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/h...ter/2010SurveyOfPhysiciansReport_345135_7.pdf). Of the 26,325 active physicians in Michigan, 4,727 of them are DOs. That's 18%. (https://www.aamc.org/download/263512/data/statedata2011.pdf) That's enormous! Michigan is one of the top four states with the greatest DO per capita in the country!



Thank you for this post. Clearly, based on DO vs. USIMG stats you can see that DO students favor better in the match.

As for MSUCOM vs. SGU, this isn't even a question. Unless you want 'MD,' choose MSUCOM. It is well-recognized in osteopathic AND allopathic worlds, pre-clinical AND clinical education will be better, match history is much much better... I rotate with SGU students and they are more worried about getting a residency, period, let alone getting into gen surg.
Click to expand...

This. I was just speaking with two of my friends that are attending physicians (EM). Both graduated from SGU quite a few years ago. They both highly advised against going Carib at the present time.
 
One must look at the statistics very carefully when one compares the number of IMG's in General Surgery to the number of D.O.'s. Currently(things may change in the near future) if you are accepted to the AOA match then you will be pulled from the ACGME match. Those osteopathic graduates accepted to General Surgery residencies in ACGME accredited residencies essentially either have not made the osteopathic match(having applied to both) or were bold enough to only apply ACGME with the risk of not matching at all. As a Canadian whether or not you go to SGU or MSUCOM you will have to match ACGME accredited(this may be easier given the new joint accreditation plans). If you go to the U.S. then you will need to match a program that will not only give you a visa, but will also have ACGME accreditation. The risk you have by going to SGU is not to be accepted to a residency in the U.S. period. They are now graduating many more students and the residency slots will diminish for IMG's. MSUCOM's reputation should pretty well guarantee you a good shot at a residency slot, so long as while there you work. Should the combined accreditation go forward as expected, then you will even have better opportunities through MSUCOM. One would hope by then the AOA programs currently in effect will have the visa situation rectified.
 
they scrambled into other slots/locations or got an aoa residency.
remember, almost 900 aoa residencies went unfilled this year.
 
VinceViegel said:
Wait a minute, you're saying over a quarter of DO students don't match into a residency? WTF
Click to expand...

A quarter of those who apply to acgme residencies fail. It really isn't as bad as it seems. The ones who fail, in general, didn't take the usmle or did bad on it. If you do about average you'll get plenty of interviews. Also, these people who failed to match, as someone mentioned, scramble into a residency somewhere.
 
VinceViegel said:
Wait a minute, you're saying over a quarter of DO students don't match into a residency? WTF
Click to expand...

He is listing stats for ACGME applicants, many DO students simply stick with the AOA match. Additionally, you have to realize that on average DO students are typically comprised of people who are less adept at taking standardized tests. This doesn't mean they are any less intelligent, some people are simply just better at taking exams strategically. Since the ACGME takes the USMLE into such high regard, that leads to the 25% of DO students not matching ACGME, but then again, this will change quite a bit by the time you matriculate as after 2015 everything is ACGME only
 
OP, please please please go to MSUCOM. SGU has. Massive class size (~1000) people, so of course they put more people into surgery programs. I would tell you to pick Any DO school over SGU, but MSUCOM fits your needs probably better than any other DO school. As others have said, you would be building ties in probably the most DO friendly state in the nation. I guarantee you that a higher percentage of MSUCOM grads who want surgery get surgery than do SGU grads. Again, go MSUCOM and never, ever look back.
 
VinceViegel said:
If you do an AOA residency, can you still practice medicine in a hospital like an MD or is it a totally different thing?
Click to expand...

Yes. For all intents and purposes, AOA=ACGME. The quality of the residencies may differ, but neither has limitations on the practice of medicine.

And in 2015, all AOA residencies will become certified by ACGME
 
GypsyHummus said:
MSUCOM is one of the best medical schools, MD or DO, in the nation.
Click to expand...

Whoa there. It is far better than attending SGU, but this type of absurd statement makes those who don't know better question everything else you wrote.
 
diagonal said:
Whoa there. It is far better than attending SGU, but this type of absurd statement makes those who don't know better question everything else you wrote.
Click to expand...

I think he made that statement based on US new's ranking, which puts msucom in the top 10 for primary care. Us news rankings are total BS, but not everyone knows that.
 
cliquesh said:
I think he made that statement based on US new's ranking, which puts msucom in the top 10 for primary care. Us news rankings are total BS, but not everyone knows that.
Click to expand...

I figured he was just trolling.
 
cliquesh said:
I think he made that statement based on US new's ranking, which puts msucom in the top 10 for primary care. Us news rankings are total BS, but not everyone knows that.
Click to expand...

I was waiting for his response to be that link.
 
I really wish that "implants" thread was still open.
 
Mr Kenobi said:
I really wish that "implants" thread was still open.
Click to expand...

I was waiting for it to turn into MD vs DO. You know, since DO schools would be more holistic and accepting than the uptight ultra conservative MD guys.
 
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