MSW/LCSW vs. PhD/PsyD

[leumas614]

What's the difference between MSW or LCSW and PhD or PsyD?

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[Annakei]

MSW means you have completed the required coursework for a Masters in Social Work. At this level you are unable to practice psychotherapy b/c you aren't licensed.

LCSW means you are licensed in the field of social work and able to independently practice psychotherapy and bill for services to insurance companies.

Phd: Research oriented education in clinical psychology

PsyD: Clinically focused education in clinical psychology. Although some do have ample grounding in research....still not much.

 

[leumas614]

So what's the difference between psychotherapy offered by an LCSW and psychotherapy offered by a psychologist (PhD/PsyD)? If all you wanted to do was provide therapy, would it matter what degree you get?

 

[PublicHealth]

If all you want to do is therapy, you're probably better off with the MSW.

Right, but if you want to conduct specialized assessments (e.g., psychoeducational, neuropsychological) and have the opportunity to secure academic or applied positions, the PhD in clinical psychology is the way to go. Behavioral health/medical psychology is a "hot" area right now. To my knowledge, MSWs have not permeated this field nor are they planning to do so.

Divisions of psychology: http://www.apa.org/about/division.html

 

[psychogurl]

So what's the difference between psychotherapy offered by an LCSW and psychotherapy offered by a psychologist (PhD/PsyD)? If all you wanted to do was provide therapy, would it matter what degree you get?

I would recommend going with a MA/MS in Clinical/Community Psychology and getting certified (LPC) if you just want to do therapy or counseling. You can go into private practice as long as your licensed.

 

[RobinA]

I would recommend going with a MA/MS in Clinical/Community Psychology and getting certified (LPC) if you just want to do therapy or counseling. You can go into private practice as long as your licensed.

I agree on this. I researched both MS in Counseling Psych and the MSW when I was having this dilemma. I "just" wanted to do psychotherapy. Despite the fact that these too degrees seem to be considered the same thing, I found that they are not. The psychology degree is FAR more clinical than the MSW. MSW was, too, me, too focused on social policy and administration. Both have their uses, but I don't see how they came to be regarded in the field as essentially the same degree.

If you "just" want to do therapy, and don't have the money/time to go doctoral, get the Masters in Psychology and get licensed. You can pretty much do the same thing with the LCSW, but to my thinking you are going to be a lot less prepared clinically.

 

[Kimya]

I have recently gotten my MSW. A couple of things to consider:

*there are many different specializations you can do with an MSW. Both my first and second year internships had a strong focus in therapy both indiv group and family. You can also focus on social policy and administration.

*you can do therapy when you graduate as an MSW. You need to be working in a place where you get supervision towards your LCSW, at which point you can practice independently if you choose.

*from what I have been hearing from other professions, the MSW is the best overall masters degree for therapy because it is accepted by so many areas (ie. some agencies hire only MSW's not other masters level clinicians).

I would recommend talking to masters level clinicans (MSW, MFT, etc) and psychologists in the area you want to practice to get an idea of what works best in YOUR area. And check out the job listings to see what sort of jobs are available for the path you choose.

Good luck!

 

[RobinA]

I have recently gotten my MSW. A couple of things to consider:

*there are many different specializations you can do with an MSW. Both my first and second year internships had a strong focus in therapy both indiv group and family. You can also focus on social policy and administration.

*you can do therapy when you graduate as an MSW. You need to be working in a place where you get supervision towards your LCSW, at which point you can practice independently if you choose.

*from what I have been hearing from other professions, the MSW is the best overall masters degree for therapy because it is accepted by so many areas (ie. some agencies hire only MSW's not other masters level clinicians).

I would recommend talking to masters level clinicans (MSW, MFT, etc) and psychologists in the area you want to practice to get an idea of what works best in YOUR area. And check out the job listings to see what sort of jobs are available for the path you choose.

Good luck!

Yes, regional differences do abound. Which makes no sense to me at all. Although, as I'm learning, sense doesn't have a lot to do with any of this. You can't really make decisions on what seems intuitively obvious, you have to take into consideration the political leanings of not only the geographical area you are in, but those of the employer, as well as the idiocyncracies of the sub-field you are interested in. Going out and learning about what you want to do is really the least of your considerations.

I have to say, I am AMAZED at the amount of politics in this field. I'm not naive about the existence of politics in general, I just thought that people trained in psychology would be a little bit more, well....insightful about he whole thing. Apparently not.

 

[Annakei]

"from what I have been hearing from other professions, the MSW is the best overall masters degree for therapy because it is accepted by so many areas (ie. some agencies hire only MSW's not other masters level clinicians)."

I disagree with that statement. I work in an agency here on the east coast where there is a pretty good mix of MSWs and LPCs. The high regard for MSWs comes when you are LICENSED, because without that you simply have a MSW. There are some agencies that will take you with a LGSW (Licensed Graduate Social Worker) but those are few and far between. From my experience, either degree as long as you are LICENSED will get you a job practicing psychotherapy.

"*you can do therapy when you graduate as an MSW. You need to be working in a place where you get supervision towards your LCSW, at which point you can practice independently if you choose."

You can do "counseling" but as far as BILLING the insurance companies or mental health state agencies, you need to be licensed. For example, on my team, we all do counseling and what may be regarded as "therapy" but we all work under a LCSW who signs off on our treatment plans and notes for them to be billed to the Department of Mental HEalth.

"I would recommend talking to masters level clinicans (MSW, MFT, etc) and psychologists in the area you want to practice to get an idea of what works best in YOUR area. And check out the job listings to see what sort of jobs are available for the path you choose. "

I agree here. DEFINATELY reserach the geographical area that you are planning to work in. My fiance and I are planning to move further south (Atlanta, North CArolina)...Ive been looking at postings on the state employment website to see what they are looking for as far as education and experience goes. Pretty much as long as you are LICENSED or LICENSE ELIGIBLE you are covered as that knocks out both the experience and education.

 

[Kimya]

Annakei sounds like might be regional difference. I am on the West Coast in CA. Here you need the equiv of about 2 years full time supervised work experience to be eligible for LCSW. There are plenty of places that hire MSW without the license and provide supervision for the hours. MSW even without LCSW often has preference. Some places will hire MSW as long as you are getting supervised hours towards LCSW, but not hire other masters level clinicians whether they are licensed or not. Not clear on your point about billing? I guess you are equating "therapy" with "ability to bill independently"?

Anyway, looks like moral of the story is do your homework in your region, it does vary geographically (which sucks I agree!)

Kimya

 

[Annakei]

Here you need the equiv of about 2 years full time supervised work experience to be eligible for LCSW. There are plenty of places that hire MSW without the license and provide supervision for the hours.

The same here on the East coast. You will get hired and I know that MY agency provides the supervision but not sure that all do.



MSW even without LCSW often has preference. Some places will hire MSW as long as you are getting supervised hours towards LCSW, but not hire other masters level clinicians whether they are licensed or not.

Yep, here they will hire you as long as you have a MA/MSW/MS or even better if you are licensed.

I guess you are equating "therapy" with "ability to bill independently"?

Yes I am.

 

[PsychEval]

Do what ever you would like to do, but I would recommend obtaining a Ph.D. in psychology. You may find you do not want to do therapy for 30 years. It is better to have options and not need them, than wanting options and not having them. With the Ph.D. you can do: therapy, testing, research, prescribe medication (additional training), administration, teaching, etc.

 

[50960]

I agree with psycheval. I also feel it is not so much of who CAN do what, but being trained well to do what you do. A doctor of psychology and an MSW are like an MD is to a PA. Both are very useful, but they are very different animals.. 🙂

 

[Kimya]

I agree with psycheval. I also feel it is not so much of who CAN do what, but being trained well to do what you do. A doctor of psychology and an MSW are like an MD is to a PA. Both are very useful, but they are very different animals.. 🙂

?? I don't understand this analogy. PA's are physician assistants. MSW's are not "psychologist assistants". PA's must work under a MD license. MSW's do not work under a psychologist. In fact, it turns out I haven't worked directly with a psychologist at all at either of my internships, which both had a strong mental health focus. MSW's must be supervised by LCSW's to get their licensure.

And as an aside MSW's don't only do therapy there are several other options in that field including administration research teaching policy etc.

Ah well. Guess it's to be expected on a clinical psychology board. To the OP, I hope you talk to people in the professions you are considering to find out what is the best fit for you. Here is a link to NASW (national association of social workers) for more info about the profession: http://www.naswdc.org/ Hope you find the path that is right for you! Take care and good luck.

 

[Annakei]

"therapy, testing, research, prescribe medication (additional training), administration, teaching, etc."

*ahem*

I am under the impression that a PSYD can do the same as a PHD. I have seen and know many PsyDs who do the above-mentioned...

 

[winnie]

Hiya Kimya...Thanks for dropping by again. I'm not sure what point psici was making, either, and I agree that the LCSW is a good option for those who don't want to/can't afford to spend 5-6 years in school AND those who are interested in social issues.

The advice I got from my 2 PhD-trained clinical psychologist sisters-in-law (in the midwest) was to do either a PsyD or a MSW for the best clinical training. They work in hospitals/private practice and supervise/work with all different types of degrees. I'm not saying they're right and others are wrong, just that the choices are far from cut-and-dried.

Also I second Annakei's point -- PsyDs do teaching, admin, etc. too! So, if you're NOT after a career in research it's a good option. People (on this board) often make the point that PhDs are better placed for an academic career. True, but how hard is it to get a tenure-track position? If you just wanna teach part-time, lots of PsyDs have adjunct positions (and more and more of them are on faculty too).

So...all the degrees have a different focus, strengths and weaknesses. There is not a single best option that suits everyone. There's room for all of us, no? I get the feeling that all the sniping and bluster that goes on here (I don't mean this particular thread, but the forum in general) puts a lot of people off. It sure ain't very helpful.

 

[50960]

My point was not about the difference between Psy.D and PhD, but about doctoral level practitioners and master's level. Both do psychotherapy very well, no doubt, and an MSW is a great option for those wanting to do just that. However, the practice of psychology is quite different in its totality than is the practice of counselling. Psychologists are members of medical staff at hospitals, not employees like MSWs, RNs and other allied health practiitioners. Psychologists have full attending rights at such hospitals, and independently manage patients in such settings etc.. I am not saying this to brag at all, but the difference between counsellors, social workers and clinical psychologists in scope of practice is big, and I think people weighing the options need to know this. The analogy to PA/MD practice is very adequate in medical settings where psychologists/MD's and PA/NP's practice. I have never seen an MSW write an order, attend medical staff meetings, or admit a patient.
In private practice MSW's do 90% of what psychologists do in their own office, but that is not the reality of practicing either profession now.

😎

 

[MaryWrathers]

There are just too many options! 😱
MSW
LCSW
PhD
PsyD
MCounseling
PA Psychiatry/Psychology
RN Psychiatry/Psychology
It seems like there is a lot of overlappping between all degrees/positions. It seems like, because of this, people holding these degrees are on the defense a lot. People are constantly identifying themselves, setting themselves apart from the other degrees. There is just too much gray/grey in the mental health field involving these degrees. It seems like the picture is even more cloudy/fuzzy for the Social Work, Counseling, and Psychology degrees.
Why are there too many degrees? It's a big puddle of mess. This field is getting their jobs taken over by this field. This person can bill, this one cannot. I think I'll just pursue psychiatry b/c there, you can do it all if you choose. And, yes, you can do therapy as a psychiatrist. You can order tests/assessments, too.
There's just too much bickering between the fields. 😱

 

[Annakei]

Ahh but you used the example of MSW v. Psychologist and PA v. MD. LCSW are able to go into private practice and do not ASSIST psychologists. PAs as the other poster said MUST work under a MD to be able to write prescriptions. Granted MSWs do not write orders, attend medical staff meetings, or admit patients but neither do psychologists in the majority of the continental US medical settings.

"Psychologists are members of medical staff at hospitals, not employees like MSWs, RNs and other allied health practiitioners. Psychologists have full attending rights at such hospitals, and independently manage patients in such settings etc."

Not in all states my friend. I believe Lousiana, New Mexico and California are the ONLY states (I could be wrong) to offer this priviledge.

"not employees like MSWs, RNs and other allied health practiitioners..."

This may be the sniping that winnie discussed in her post. Is it really necessary to imply that MSWs and RNs are simply just another employee and must bow down the the merciful almighty psychologist? As far as I see it, LCSWs are giving psychologists are run for their money when it comes to insurance companies paying for services.

"In private practice MSW's do 90% of what psychologists do in their own office, but that is not the reality of practicing either profession now."

I don't follow...MSWs aren't able to do testing. Is that it?

My point was not about the difference between Psy.D and PhD, but about doctoral level practitioners and master's level. Both do psychotherapy very well, no doubt, and an MSW is a great option for those wanting to do just that. However, the practice of psychology is quite different in its totality than is the practice of counselling. Psychologists are members of medical staff at hospitals, not employees like MSWs, RNs and other allied health practiitioners. Psychologists have full attending rights at such hospitals, and independently manage patients in such settings etc.. I am not saying this to brag at all, but the difference between counsellors, social workers and clinical psychologists in scope of practice is big, and I think people weighing the options need to know this. The analogy to PA/MD practice is very adequate in medical settings where psychologists/MD's and PA/NP's practice. I have never seen an MSW write an order, attend medical staff meetings, or admit a patient.
In private practice MSW's do 90% of what psychologists do in their own office, but that is not the reality of practicing either profession now.

😎

 

[Annakei]

I agree. I believe one must be secure in his/her chosen field and stick with it and not worry about the naysayers. Each profession has a naysay about the other. Are we going to spend time worrying about the other or be the best at what we are/will be licensed to do?

I mean when it all comes down to it (regarding PSYDs and PHDs), we both take the SAME licensing exam and equally qualify for the same positions depending on the requirements. A PHD candidate who focused primarily on research and not clinical application would be hard pressed going against a PsyD with the appropriate clinical experience. As would a PsyD going against a PHD with the needed research experience for a research position.

I am choosing to go the PsyD route myself as I have no interest in research. Sure, I am working on a research project right now with a research psychologist but I have no interest in conducting it except for the occasional case study. Her advice was to go with what worked for me (PsyD) being that I am more interested in clinical practice. She assured me doors won't be closed but simply to do the best at what I set out to do, find a niche and go for it!

There are just too many options! 😱
MSW
LCSW
PhD
PsyD
MCounseling
PA Psychiatry/Psychology
RN Psychiatry/Psychology
It seems like there is a lot of overlappping between all degrees/positions. It seems like, because of this, people holding these degrees are on the defense a lot. People are constantly identifying themselves, setting themselves apart from the other degrees. There is just too much gray/grey in the mental health field involving these degrees. It seems like the picture is even more cloudy/fuzzy for the Social Work, Counseling, and Psychology degrees.
Why are there too many degrees? It's a big puddle of mess. This field is getting their jobs taken over by this field. This person can bill, this one cannot. I think I'll just pursue psychiatry b/c there, you can do it all if you choose. And, yes, you can do therapy as a psychiatrist. You can order tests/assessments, too.
There's just too much bickering between the fields. 😱

 

[50960]

This is a psychology forum for students of psychology, not a general mental health providers forum. 😱

 

[Annakei]

Just proved my point! ahhh when will it stop... 🙂

 

[50960]

When you read the original subject of this thread. 😀

 

[leumas614]

Maybe we need a general mental health forum because I'm finding this discussion very informative. Although this forum is for students of psychology, psychologists and social workers have similar jobs when it comes to psychotherapy. Because LCSW's do the same psychotherapy as PhD/PsyD's, then they are related to eachother and are still relevant to this forum. Why exclude MSW/LCSW? 🙂

 

[winnie]

This is a psychology forum for students of psychology, not a general mental health providers forum. 😱

I'm not trying to be ass (!), but could you clarify your point? That we shouldn't be discussing MSW etc (even though that's what the OP was asking about)? You're the mod, so I thought I'd ask.

Cheers all 🙂

 

[50960]

We can discuss it, but I was trying to point out very important differences between masters level counselors and psychologists. This is the Student Doctors Network?? Am I missing something? I am happy to support talk in this forum about masters level practitioners, and/or a separate forum, but I am mainly interested in helping doctoral students in psychology get good, reliable information about their chosen field.

😉

 

[winnie]

We can discuss it, but I was trying to point out very important differences between masters level counselors and psychologists. This is the Student Doctors Network?? Am I missing something? I am happy to support talk in this forum about masters level practitioners, and/or a separate forum, but I am mainly interested in helping doctoral students in psychology get good, reliable information about their chosen field.

😉

OK. I see where you're coming from. Thanks.

 

[Annakei]

This is a psychology forum for students of psychology, not a general mental health providers forum. 😱

This forum discussion is relevant to the other fields even if they are Master's level because of overlapping in duties, limitations and responsibiities. To say or even imply that PHDs/PsyDs are in a class all their own is ridiculous.

Maybe the forum should be titled Mental Health to make it more inclusive OR as I said before, just request/create a forum for the master's level crowd.

simple! 🙂

 

[Annakei]

You're entitled your opinion as I am to mine. We will just have to agree to disagree. Still, the salty attitudes on this forum keeps others seeking information away. Leave the "high and mighty" at the login page. 🙂

 

[PsyD123]

Still, the salty attitudes on this forum keeps others seeking information away. Leave the "high and mighty" at the login page. 🙂

Thank you! I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[50960]

We are trying to share facts as they exist in the real world with students of psychology, not ideas that people wish were true. 😉

 

[Galia]

If this forum is for CURRENT STUDENS of psychology only - than it is completely valid point. But if it is - as well - for PRE / POTENTIAL students [of psychology] - than this discussion is very helpful. This it is one of the typical choices potential students are facing. I ruled out MSW track for myself… and it took me more than 6 month of research to understand why. Whatever decision is – discussions like that can save people time by pointing out factors to be considered and where to explore futher. Isn’t it what the forum for potential students also about? And is it OK for potential students to wonder around here?

We can discuss it, but I was trying to point out very important differences between masters level counselors and psychologists. This is the Student Doctors Network?? Am I missing something? I am happy to support talk in this forum about masters level practitioners, and/or a separate forum, but I am mainly interested in helping doctoral students in psychology get good, reliable information about their chosen field.

😉

 

[RobinA]

This is a psychology forum for students of psychology, not a general mental health providers forum. 😱

Uhmmm. Interesting to learn that as a person pursuing a Masters in psychology I am not a "student of psychology," simply because of the level of the degree I will earn.

Although it probably does widen the options to have a doctoral degree, it simply is not an option for some of us. When I was considering applying to the Psy.D program at my school, one look at the math made it clear that it didn't make sense. I'm an older student, the tuition alone would be $60,000, and I would lose 5-6 years of fulltime income. I looked at the salaries that this financial hit would afford me, and I wouldn't even come close to making it all worthwhile. In fact, at age 47, it would be downright irresponsible.

I, and many other people, would LOVE to have the education that a doctoral degree would give me, but I can't sensibly do it. So I get my Masters, I try to plan my internships well, I do a lot of individual learning, I get as much additional formal training as I can, I try to ignore people who tell me my degree is crap and that I'm not really studying psychology, I stop paying dues to professional organizations who don't acknowledge my degree's existence, and I go out there and try to use my knowledge to help people who need it.

 

[winnie]

We are trying to share facts as they exist in the real world with students of psychology, not ideas that people wish were true. 😉

😕

 

[winnie]

Still, the salty attitudes on this forum keeps others seeking information away. 🙂

Yes, I think this is true.

 

[Annakei]

We are trying to share facts as they exist in the real world with students of psychology, not ideas that people wish were true. 😉

Again I have nothing to prove. What would be good about this forum if even the moderator were open to listening to both sides of the debate instead of posting random ambiguities when posed with a challenge...such as considering changing the focus if this forum or suggest that ANOTHER one be created.

There are man valid points posed in this dicussion thus far. Again, if we can get over our egos and proceed to making this a helpful place for all students seeking a career in psychology.

Perhaps a separate forum for the Masters and even the Bachelors level crowd would be helpful. Still I am sure that posters from each section would still visit the other related forums to get needed information.

 

[Annakei]

Yes, I think this is true.

Still, it doesn't keep me away and I hope that it doesnt prevent others from the pursuit of information about the chosen career path. 1 or 2 people don't make a forum bad. Im sure there are many others here who are willing to share information in a manner that is open and welcome to all seeking advice and support.

 

[PsychEval]

therapy, testing, research, prescribe medication (additional training), administration, teaching, etc."

*ahem*

I am under the impression that a PSYD can do the same as a PHD. I have seen and know many PsyDs who do the above-mentioned...

I agree, I know several talented PsyD’s who function in this capacity. I also know Clinical/Counseling Psychologists who function more similar to I/O Psych. I was suggesting there are differences in Doctoral Level training compared to Master’s Level training. I was not comparing the Ph.D./Psy.D./Ed.D degrees. As stated previously, psychologists hold positions as medical staff, are medical directors, have admitting privileges, etc. This is the case in several states, not simply a few states. Psychologists also hold positions with: NASA, FBI, Major Pharmaceutical Companies, Executive Positions within Managed Care Organizations, etc. Maybe social workers have similar positions, but I am not aware of this. I do not mean to make over generalizations, but the type of therapy many MSW’s/LCSW’s are engaged in is quite different than that of psychologists. Psychologists tend to be interested in evidence based, empirically validated treatment, not on going, supportive therapy. Supportive therapy is valuable, but it is very different than targeted cognitive behavioral therapy related to pain management, or motivational interviewing related to treatment adherence among patients with diabetes mellitus. I know there are unlimited exceptions, with numerous social workers doing other types of therapy besides supportive therapy. Psychologists who work alongside skilled social workers in community mental health centers or private practice may function in a similar capacity, but when the psychologist is employed at a medical school, health science center, neuroscience research facility, executive healthcare position, etc., the roles are very different.

 

[PsyD123]

I'm not sure why this forum is titled Clinical Psychology [PhD/PsyD]. It should be "The Almighty Clinical Psychology PhD, oh and PsyD folks may stick around to be bashed". From all that I've read, this forum is mainly anti-Psy.D. If someone posts a question inquiring about a Clinical Psy.D, the usual responses are negative in nature. I will be the first to admit that there are some horrible Psy.D programs out there. Heck, there are horrible Clinical Ph.D programs too! There are also some awesome Psy.D programs available. As I said in another post, all Psy.D programs are not created equally. Please be respectful of that.

 

[PsychEval]

I'm not sure why this forum is titled Clinical Psychology [PhD/PsyD]. It should be "The Almighty Clinical Psychology PhD, oh and PsyD folks may stick around to be bashed". From all that I've read, this forum is mainly anti-Psy.D.


As a Ph.D., I am sorry this has been your experience. Psychologists are all in this together. For those of you interested in RxP, I can not think of many psychologists who have contributed more to psychopharmacology and neurobiology than John Preston, Psy.D., a board certified neuropsychologist and ABPP in counseling psychology.

 

[Kimya]

Whoa! Lots of responses. Noticed several people curious about what types of therapy LCSW's do. I will tell you trends I have seen in my area (which is CA). Medical social workers (i.e. inpatient, inpatient psych to a degree) usually do more supportive counseling, working with family, linking pt and family to resources, advocacy, case management. In some hospitals LCSW's do discharge planning. Some don't. Counseling in this arena is almost always short term. There are a lot of very interesting areas for medical social work-- ER, palliative care are two of my faves.

Mental health social workers are often involved in the more traditional "50 minute hour", ie outpt mental health. You will learn about the major psychotherapy theories in classwork and can choose an internship to focus specifically on this if you choose. We do have some strong proponents of psychodynamic theory, I personally prefer CBT especially since I am interested in working with adjustment disorders/PTSD. First year I was in a mental health agency, did indiv/family therapy, group therapy, all time limited. In my second year, I did mental health screenings (outpt mental health), coming up with DSM-IV diagnosis, and got to see a variety of Axis I and II disorders.

Groups are also important in both of these settings. I've done both short term group therapy and also groups that are more of an ongoing support (ie caregiver groups, chronic illness). Group dynamics are fascinating and the peer support can be incredibly helpful for clients.

I have found that background in case management has also been very useful if you are seeing clients in therapy sessions. Sometimes the most pressing thing for a client is not their mental illness but their social circumstances. It has been useful to be able to "switch hats" and focus on that first if it helps the client. For example, 2nd yr I was working with a client with MDD/PTSD. Most urgent situation was that he was getting evicted. So first sessions focused on advocating for client and helping him contest eviction. Then could focus on more mental health issues, but have built good rapport with client and shown I care what his priorities are.

Well I hope that helps. I have met many excellent therapists from many different backgrounds, LCSW, psychologists, MFT... I think the key is having a passion for the work and a willingness to always continue learning. For those who want more detail on different areas of social work, I included a more specific link:

http://www.naswdc.org/pubs/choices/default.asp


I also would recommend browsing job listings in your geographic area to get an idea of what the different professions do and general accepted scope in that area. Mental health is a patchwork of professions these days that is for sure. It is confusing! It took me quite a while to sort them out and decide which was best for me.

 

[Annakei]

In this thread, can you give an example or two of what's not helpful and why?

I believe it is the general tone of the thread. As you can see from posts since my last, it has become rather hostile. In my experience on this board thus far, up until now it has been a positive one. I have lurked and watched piss fests such as this one happen before and that is what's being described by the irate poster above.

I won't stoop so low as to attack any one person and quote what they have said but anyone with a 6th grade reading/comprehension ability can tell where the hostility originated and what contributed to it thus far.

As ive said before, leave the egos and high and mightys at the door. It's pathetic to think that haughtiness on the internet makes you many more important tht another. Everyone here has a right to post their questions as it relates to the field of psychology. Recent posts will tell you that the MAJORITY of questions asked on this forum dont have to do solely with PHD or PSYD.

A post may take a turn like this because the OP asked about the differences between MSW/LCSW and PHD/PSYD. They obviously overlap due to certain duties, limitations and responsibilities. Masters level folks have a right to ask just as another doctoral level candidate might because there are some of us who have chosen to get a Masters before the PHD/PSYD. So it is very relevant.

Try to show more support for your peers and perhaps what was meant to be an informative post won't turn into a pissing match.

My 5 cents 🙂

 

[RobinA]

Hmm, see I think the derivation of the sniping on this board is a little different than what you seem to think it is. I think the problem is over-sensitivity and an unwillingness to make qualitative or relativistic statements about training and career options.

The derivation of the sniping, which is in no way limited to this board, is the constant "my degree is bigger than your degree" nonsense that goes on...everywhere. Master's owners get looked down on by everybody. PhD's look down on Psy.D's. MDs look down on PhDs. Psychiatrists get looked down on by other MDs. MDs alone have their own nonsensical speciality pecking order. Lawyers have a hierarchy that they hold dear and no one in the real world gives a crap about. It's the professional form of whose truck has wider, bigger, badder, more rubber-layin' tires, or who shot the elk with the biggest antlers.

The unwillingness to make qualitative statements about training and career options is that so much of it is bull, it obscures differences that are actually relevant. Also, too many of the statments are made to prop up one group at the expense of another. It's certainly possible to say that a person who wishes to teach at the college level needs a PhD without also saying that PsyDs are granted by diploma mills with few academic standards. It's possible to say that a doctoral degree grants the holder more opportunities to do interesting, challenging work than a Masters degree, without stating that Master's level counselors aren't really studying psychology.

 

[50960]

For what it is worth the MOD is a Psy.D.

 

[Annakei]

A prime example of oversensitivity.

More like a lack of...

 

[Annakei]

No one said, or meant anyway, that masters level counselors don't study psychology. That's looking to be offended. I, as you're aware, made the diploma mill comment. It is a big deal. It is also something that students need to be aware of. Programs like Argosy, Nova, Illinois School of Professional Psychology, and California School of Professional psychology are bad for the field and bad for the student (unless you're independently wealthy and don't care about the quality of the education). It's not sniping. It's not haughtiness, arrogance, or an attempt at a pissing contest. The "my degree is better than yours" prevalence is also driven by a few factors beyond just bluster. Insurance companies are encouraging continual decreases in standards to perform various specialties because of cost. We have indepently practicing PAs, NPs, Social Workers, masters level psychotherapists, etc with ever expanding roles. We have clinical psychologists thinking they should prescribe medications (I disagree). This is a problem and I think the major spark for why you're seeing animosity. Meanwhile, in psychology/mental health land we have absolute relativism where people seem to think that decreasing standards are fine because everyone is equally capable and qualified to do everything. Social workers want to do psychological assessments? No problem, why shouldn't they? We're no better than they are. Psychologists want to prescribe meds? That's great! That's not right.

You are entitled to your opinion indeed but what is not right is the belittling of other related fields because they do not fit your standards.

 

[Annakei]

Well said! There is always a way to convey a point without making the other side feel smaller and less important.

The derivation of the sniping, which is in no way limited to this board, is the constant "my degree is bigger than your degree" nonsense that goes on...everywhere. Master's owners get looked down on by everybody. PhD's look down on Psy.D's. MDs look down on PhDs. Psychiatrists get looked down on by other MDs. MDs alone have their own nonsensical speciality pecking order. Lawyers have a hierarchy that they hold dear and no one in the real world gives a crap about. It's the professional form of whose truck has wider, bigger, badder, more rubber-layin' tires, or who shot the elk with the biggest antlers.

The unwillingness to make qualitative statements about training and career options is that so much of it is bull, it obscures differences that are actually relevant. Also, too many of the statments are made to prop up one group at the expense of another. It's certainly possible to say that a person who wishes to teach at the college level needs a PhD without also saying that PsyDs are granted by diploma mills with few academic standards. It's possible to say that a doctoral degree grants the holder more opportunities to do interesting, challenging work than a Masters degree, without stating that Master's level counselors aren't really studying psychology.

 

[LM02]

If I may jump into the fray, the message that I take away from Paendrag's post is: Let the buyer beware.

Not only is it important to parse out the similarities/differences of the degrees themselves, but it is also important to understand that there is both good and bad training across and within the respective fields. Just make sure that you are fully informed about the path you choose.

With that said, my best friend is an LCSW and I have a PhD. We have numerous discussions about our respective roles (we live in different cities), and she has frequently commented that her clinical training has been more "broad-brush" in comparison to mine. That is, she feels as though she did not receive a strong foundation in theoretical perspectives, the practice of empirically-supported treatments, and opportunities for micro-level training (e.g., videotaped supervision) that I have received. As such, a lot of her clinical training has taken place after she graduated from school, and has relied more on on-the-cuff experiences. And that makes some sense - 2 years of graduate school does not allow for the same in-depth exposure to practicing therapy as does a 5-6 year doctoral training program. Especially when social work also focuses on other important areas of practice such as advocacy, administration, policy, etc.

With that said, now that she's been out of school for a while (and she attended Columbia - so it's not an issue of having gone to a "bad" program), she loves what she does and thinks that social work adds something unique to the setting where she works (a Dept. of Psychiatry). In our talks, she clearly approaches her work from a more global and systemic perspective than I do.

Good luck in your decision!

 

[50960]

well said lmo2...

🙂

 

[winnie]

Too bad two people said "PhD" when they meant "doctoral degree"...maybe this particular misunderstanding could have been avoided. And please don't dismiss people's genuine concerns as "oversensitivity."

Paendrag, you very frequently make unprovoked swipes at PsyDs and you know it, you sly devil! I would send you a compilation of examples but I would rather move on than be drawn into one of your semantic battles. You can be very helpful when you want to, as I know from experience, and I personally am glad you're here. I suspect that what comes across as arrogance and bluster on the internet might be more playful wryness in person. Please try to understand that your tone very often undermines what you have to say. (And adding a smiley face or a "j/k" at the end of an insult doen't make it funny or endearing).

Psici, I hope you will listen to what people are saying too. This forum is great but it would be a lot better if we didn't have to have these battles so frequently.

Yoroshiku,
winnie