multiple careers for MD/PhDs

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ropra

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hey guys,

have been thinking of the different career opportunities other than the traditional academic medicine track that most md/phds take.

was curious if anyone had any thoughts on this...am i the only one that is still thinking of pursuing a career outside of the university of govt setting?

ropra

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I'm curious too. Thinking about other options....
 
I'm thinking of using my MD/PhD to raise chickens. I will use my knowledge of genetics to perfect my cross-breeding, my knowledge of infectious diseases to avoid contracting avian viruses, and my clinical skills to treat the workers I will employ who may be pecked by an errant chicken beak.

What kinds of careers are you considering? The possibilities are ENDLESS!
 
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Thundrstorm said:
I'm thinking of using my MD/PhD to raise chickens. I will use my knowledge of genetics to perfect my cross-breeding, my knowledge of infectious diseases to avoid contracting avian viruses, and my clinical skills to treat the workers I will employ who may be pecked by an errant chicken beak.

What kinds of careers are you considering? The possibilities are ENDLESS!

But to take that all the way won't you need a vet degree also? Hey, what's another couple of years?
 
so, in all seriousness, what are things that people are thinking about...which schools de-emphasize the need to go the traditional career route?
 
Well, I don't think any schools deemphasize it... At elast none that I've visited. But a significant minority go into industry. Industry compensates pretty well, and depending on your competence, luck, politics, and the degree of corporate idiocy of your employer, you may actually be able to do some interesting research or drug development... or it could suck the life out of you.

depends.
 
The bottom line is that most people have to (a) complete the MSTP and then (b) complete a residency and/or fellowship/post-doc before industry will even consider them.

You are talking about 8 years + 5 years = 13 years in the future

A LOT of things can happen b/w now and then. Not the least of which is a changing job environment in academics vs. industry.

My view is this -- if you don't want to do academics then stay out of an MD/PhD program. Certainly people change career paths during their training but my guess is that 99% of them started off wanting to get into a tenure-track position. Getting into academics is pretty easy for an MD/PhD (or an MD for that matter) but jobs in industry are hard to come by and extremely competitive.
 
so, you clearly are in the traditional group. how many of us are in this one?

are you certain about the things that industry might expect after your MD/PhD training. I have heard different things on that aspect alone.

Also, do you all think that we just all fall into academia (even if it's only partially true) because it is EASY to get into academia as Gfunk said?
 
Sorry, don't mean to monopolize this thread but you do pose some interesting questions.

You can get a job in industry right after you finish an MSTP (w/o residency or post-doc) and make a tidy salary. The problem is that you will have very little upward mobility. Unless you have some serious clinical training (IM Residency + Clinical Pharmacology fellowship for directing clinical trials, for instance) or serious lab management skills (most likely the result of a post-doc) you won't see your salary increase by very much.

If you want to market yourself well, the best thing to do would be go the traditional route and work in academics for a few years and carve out a niche for yourself. Then, you will be able to make a killing in industry.

As an MSTP grad who is yet to start residency (June) I can personally tell you that all I feel qualified to do (at this point) is a residency or post-doc. There would be no way I could run clinical trials or even run a large lab division in pharma right now.
 
Some companies actually offer postdoctoral fellowship opportunities to PhD and MD/PhD graduates, so if industry interests you, consider this route.

Some professors have left recently from our institution to take industry positions. In those cases, they have already carved out a niche (as Gfunk mentioned is important), thereby making themselves extremely marketable to industry, and enhancing their position.

Note that even if you stay in academics, you can still have extensive involvement in industry, including consulting work or starting one's own company.

The bottom line is that the most successful individuals tend to carve their own path.
 
ropra said:
Also, do you all think that we just all fall into academia (even if it's only partially true) because it is EASY to get into academia as Gfunk said?

Actually, I think we fall into academia because that's all we know. Our clinical advisors tend to be engrained in the academic medical environment, and our research advisors are also embedded in academia. It's not so often that someone finds a good "clinical scientist" who works in industry though they do exist.

That said, I do think that you can do more than just go straight to an academic post, and the reason for that is because there really aren't that many to go around. Tenure-track positions in conventional basic science programs are very hard to come by, and you can guess how hard it is to try to balance building a research program with clinical responsibilities unless you specifically get protected time.

But other career to think about: Health Science Administrator and Program Officer at NIH. How many positions I have seen that are begging for people with an M.D. in some cases... you can imagine having both degrees really makes you attractive if you like that career direction. Yes, contract research organizations would also love to have you guys, but you need to understand the working environment of these firms. You can also go into industry, but your difficulty is to understand the work environment of industry compared to academe enough that a company would want to hire you. (That's the problem biomed Ph.D.'s have, and there is quite a gap to traverse there.)
 
i know someone graduating this year who's going into financial services without a residency.

The starting salary for doing financial analysis of healthcare/biotech companies for a top firm (i.e. morgan stanley etc) is the same level as an MBA graduate, i.e. $150,000 in new york, with bonus depending on your ability to play the game. It's possible to get quickly promoted to VP level, and that usually pays around $250,000 base and a variable bonus. at managing director level, you get $1 mil base plus as much as $50 mil bonus depending on the deals you get. however, such promotions are notably competitive in investment banking. but the option is there if you want to go that path.
 
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great responses. as sluox pointed out, going into industry might mean going away from the lab. are there certain places where this happens more. or do you think it depends on the person? my feeling is that we can all pave our own path, but having the appropriate resources certainly helps.

sloux -- the salaries that you mentioned, where did you get those figs? i would love to look at this resource..
 
bump for salary figs reference
 
the salary range for low/mid level comes from my friend who worked at Lehman brothers as an associate. I can generally vouch for their accuracy as a baseline. That is, if anything the salaries have gone up since then. Keep in mind the bonus can be anywhere between 50-150% of the salary depending on how well your evaluation is. For the few high end positions, the data is scarce for obvious reasons. The numbers I quoted tend to be on the low end of things, and you get these numbers from bits and pieces. The top performing hedge fund manager in CT made ~150 million last year (I'm quoting a recent NYTimes article here.) There are now hedge fund targeted specifically for different sectors, including healthcare/biotech.

i generally don't recommend financial services however, as a life style. the money is definitely there, but the hours are really long, on par with a surgical internship, if not longer. the work is pretty boring and the human interaction isn't there. your ability to be political counts a lot more than it does in science. your charisma counts a lot, etc. And, unless you live in New York or San Fran, there's no way to spend all that many millions of dollars. And even if you do live in Manhattan, do you really want to get a 2000 sq ft loft in Tribeca with Robert DiNero as your neighbor? (Ok, maybe you would. :)


I think some of the best alternative career paths for MD/PhD hinge on the MD part of the training. You are a doctor, and you can do anything a doctor can do. Think about non-profit organizations, public health and policy making insitutions, think tanks, the WHO etc. Think about private practice in underserved areas (or, overserved areas, like Beverley Hills. I can garentee you being a dermatologist in Manhattan gives you a much better life style than being an IBanker, even taken into consideration of money. And that PhD just makes getting into dermatology residency THAT much easier.) Think about working as a special advisor for an African country if your thesis topic is on infectious disease. Think about working for consumer research organizations if your work is in fMRI and decision making. Open your own biotech firm if your research has direct applications. It takes $250 and 20 minutes to register your own company over the internet. This is the US of A, people thrive on enterprising.

As far as I know, R&D in the industry actually doesn't pay very well and is pretty boring. It's a PhDs' world. My philosophical perspective is that MD/PhD is set out to be a PhD program with an MD attached to it, but practically the MD part makes all the difference. A PhD degree, esp in the biological sciences, is really not very marketable these days. You can either be a PI, or do biotech/pharm. Wall street wants someone with more quantitative skills, and most bio phd grads know no math. Government/NGOs want clinicians, and there are specialized PhD areas, like public policy. Bio phd grads know nothing about diseases and implications of them. Often I dread that the bio phd program is no more than cheap labor for the PIs...I mean, you run gels and do PCRs for 6 yrs and know nothing about anything outside of your extremely small area...the level of narrowness in bio phd programs is simply shocking...don't get my soap box opened...
 
sluox -- thanks for the great response. i completely agree with your sentiment of using are degree to start great humanitarian adventures. depending on our phd, we certainly have a degree of expertise over other people, and it should be utilized.

in regard to private enterprise etc, do you all have a sense of which school would be most suited for this. again, i agree with pave you or own path bit, but certainly there are some schools which offer more exposure to this.

thanks for the replies....
 
Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Yale. I heard that private equity firms are all prestige ******. "exposure" per se counts for nothing. Also if you want to be an entrepreneur, you need to get out of that mindset of "which school does this, which school does that...etc" It's a very survival of the fittest world. You need to be able to ego your way, have a thick skin, and package your stuff really well. Schooling is just another part of that packaging. Think about what the venture capital firm is funding: ways to make even more profit. The real world isn't about technical expertise. It's all about salesmanship. I know quite a few of quants going into Wall Street, only getting paid $120,000 where their managing directors are getting tens of millions and the MDs don't even know how to calculate a partial derivative. And the quants never much have a chance of making more. Why? They are indian/chinese/bangali physics grad students with no connections, no way of raising their capital pool, and heavy accents that prevent themselves from being understood by snooty rich investors. The MDs in biotech know nothing about PCR or FACS or DNA microarray. They know that the buzz words could draw attention of the investors, but they have no clue how it actually works. And you know what, they don't care. But if you know the technical things, AND you know how to play the game, then when those folks retire...it'll be all yours so to speak.

You can't study to be a good manager. Really. There are no STEP I for CEOs. We could all be CEOs, right now. If we were given $2 mil a year to hire minions to work for us, most of us would be able to come up with at least mediocre research, right now. and you know what, 90% of all published research is pretty mediocre.

I want to reiterate my opinion: biological sciences PhD programs don't train you to DO anything. It's a credentialing program. You have to have it in order to get somewhere. I really wished they'd teach you how to manage a lab during your PhD, but guess what, they don't. And you know why? Cause everybody knows 2/3 of the graduates won't become PIs in the end, and 2/3 of that 1/3 go work for a state school/liberal arts college and get bogged down by their teaching and have no time for anything important anyway. I think the biological sciences PhD programs will change very significantly in the coming decades, cause this shockingly low level of quality control cannot go on indefinitely.

My data is old now. I just read this yesterday, apparantly in 2004 the highest performing hedge fundingg ESL fund's manager Eddie Lampert made 1.2 Billion. He also got kidnapped, so go figure.

ropra said:
sluox -- thanks for the great response. i completely agree with your sentiment of using are degree to start great humanitarian adventures. depending on our phd, we certainly have a degree of expertise over other people, and it should be utilized.

in regard to private enterprise etc, do you all have a sense of which school would be most suited for this. again, i agree with pave you or own path bit, but certainly there are some schools which offer more exposure to this.

thanks for the replies....
 
MasonPrehealth said:
But other career to think about: Health Science Administrator and Program Officer at NIH. How many positions I have seen that are begging for people with an M.D. in some cases... you can imagine having both degrees really makes you attractive if you like that career direction. Yes, contract research organizations would also love to have you guys, but you need to understand the working environment of these firms. You can also go into industry, but your difficulty is to understand the work environment of industry compared to academe enough that a company would want to hire you. (That's the problem biomed Ph.D.'s have, and there is quite a gap to traverse there.)

Great comment about the transition from academe to industry. DEFINITELY not as easy as people think.

I'll almost certainly being taking a "different" route after finishning school heading directly toward the feds. I have a close freind MD/PhD who recently completely a residency throughly enjoying her job as a Medical Officer with the NCI, and a mentor who is a clinical professor at the NIH who has an MD/PhD (oncologist) and publishes but isn't in the tenure track rat race. GREAT way to make a living form what I can see.

Gov't positions for MD/PhD's range from the CIA and FBI to the NIH and NIEHS depending on what you want to do. Of course, these positions don't pay 250K+/year so imagine most folks aren't interested.
 
sluox said:
I want to reiterate my opinion: biological sciences PhD programs don't train you to DO anything. It's a credentialing program. You have to have it in order to get somewhere. I really wished they'd teach you how to manage a lab during your PhD, but guess what, they don't.
Bro, this is over-generalizing here. Certainly there are some advisors for which this is true, but there are others whose first priority (in regards to training) is training their students to know how to manage a lab, write competitive proposals, learn the politics/culture, and ultimately be successful scientists in the competitive world of academia.

Let me guess...do you know a couple particular friends/relatives that made you bitter about the whole bio PhD idea by getting screwed over in the way you speak of? :rolleyes:
 
sluox's posts are probably the best posts I have read in all my browsing of sdn

someone actually does know their stuff on these boards :D
 
Bluntman said:
Bro, this is over-generalizing here. Certainly there are some advisors for which this is true, but there are others whose first priority (in regards to training) is training their students to know how to manage a lab, write competitive proposals, learn the politics/culture, and ultimately be successful scientists in the competitive world of academia.

Let me guess...do you know a couple particular friends/relatives that made you bitter about the whole bio PhD idea by getting screwed over in the way you speak of? :rolleyes:

Um......actually no, he isn't over-generalizing. This is my 4th year in an MSTP and I can say from my experience that Sluox is right on the money. You can just about take everything he said to the bank. I gather that you're either finishing your first year in a program or beginning one in the fall. Once you get into a lab (i.e. beyond the interview/reserach colloquia talks) you'll see how the real world of "graduate training" is. And yes, you're probably partially correct in thinking that we're just jaded and/or pissed off......but grad school tends to do that too you. As Sluox so elequently stated, "graduate training" doesn't teach you to DO anything. Everything is usually up in the air, so to speak. For us type A peronalitity med school folk, that's really a pain in the ass. You'd be amazed how much you're left to figure out on your own......and I'm not just talking about experiments. PI's aren't worried about teaching you how to be "a successful scientist in the world of academia". They want you're freaking data yesterday so that they can write that RO1 so they don't have to close their lab up and see patients full time. Alot of folks are without/low on money right now (thanks GW!!) and teaching their students "learn the politics and culture of academia" is pretty low on their list of things to do.
 
Grad school is fundamentally about heuristic learning, and this type of training is different from the pedagogically didactic styles that we've often become accustomed. To say that no explicit teaching is going on, and no explicit learning is going on is to narrowly define what teaching and learning look and feel like - it's no wonder that ones expectations would be bitterly dashed given these parameters. To a lesser degree, many of these issues are present on clerkships, though often unquestioned, where learning and teaching is simply understood to be encompassed within whatever medical students do, rightly or wrongly. And sure, even viewing either process in a broad sense, could be embittering given the wrong fit.

For better or worse, graduate school training is uniquely heterogeneous, as are students and PI's. One students perfect lab environment is anothers' personal hell: I've experienced both and am luckily in the former for my thesis work, and the magic formula for me, personally, was quite unexpected.

I can't say that my PI's first priority is training me explicitly in the arenas mentioned, but by leaving most everything up to me, from writing grants to designing and interpreting experiments and next steps to setting up collaborations, it is, in effect, the training I get. This could be interpreted as a PI absconding his duties, but he's happy with it, and so am I: no complaints.

Friends of mine in banking or law (the quintissential new york professions) often ask me if i've "gotten smarter", or can "think more critically" as a direct result of my graduate training - and i'll admit that it is often hard to give a definitive yes. I think this is mostly attributable to the fact that it is a slow, seeping process, one that does not lend itself to being put in high relief, whereas in medicine, a fact learned today is one more fact that you didn't know yesterday. But looking back to 1 year ago, 2, and 3, the answer is a clear yes.

As for banking, law, I can vouch for Sluox's numbers. But to hear the dominant conversations amongst friends in such fields with the connections, creativity, pedigree and intelligence to do just about anything makes one realize that the grass seems greener through green tinted shades: competition between who works more, plays less, life sucks more, makes the most money, and ranks higher in the ibanker, equity, hedge, and corp law hierarchies.

When you find your 20-something-self sitting in the midtown offices of the Blackstone Group at 1:30AM on a friday night, calling your merger and acquisitions lawyer at Skadden who picks up immediately, you might think about how much the money is worth. If it is, by all means - you're a sucker if you stay in science and medicine for a moment longer - you're wasting borrowed time that could be spent capitalizing on a steep positive discount rate.

There are definitely serious structural problems that need to be addressed in science and medicine, or other paths that seem may seem more interesting, and they may be. But one could do far worse than have the time to see Robert Pinsky speak at Psych Grand Rounds and attend a biophysics lecture on AFM in between doing some work that you planned, and then go out, all while being a paid student in NYC (for example).

As for after this, it will require some thought; unthinkingly moving down a path and track has never made sense. Science, medicine, industry, other academics, business, government, non-profit, private sector work, are all possible: and I'd have to say thus far that this time spent in an md/phd program will not have been a waste regardless.
 
I kind of agree with sluox (if I got his nick right).

I am no expert here, but it's not hard to see that MD/PHDs have lots and lots of oppourtunities outside academia. To go to basics, they have an MD and a PHD. Meaning they can do everything that MDs do, what PHDs do and what things that neither MDs and PHDs alone can do.

And I also agree that the MD part is really what makes the difference. It really depresses and saddens me there's not much outlook for PHDs, since I wanted to set a career in scientific research, but oh well, the real capitalist world is driven by consumer demand more than anything else.
 
Habari pretty much summed up what I was going to say, and he put it quite eloquently.

Graduate school is not medical school--the learning you experience is much more implicit and self-directed. As an MSTP student finishing up my thesis, I see how much I have grown as a scientist in just a few short years. I am amazed at how much more of a deeper understanding of research I now have and how much my ability to interpret data & question conclusions has increased. I also am amazed at how much I have accomplished in terms of generating a large amount of data and learning how to sift through it to tell a story.

Perhaps some are born with those skills. If you are like me, however, graduate school is an excellent opportunity to learn how to DO science. It doesn't necessarily teach you how to be a PI--but it does increase your ability to be a self-directed learner and independent thinker, precursors to being an independent investigator. It also gives you protected time to focus on a particular problem of interest. If you look at your time in grad school as merely being a lab rat doing the PI's bidding, then that is honestly really sad and I would submit that you change your career path while you still have time.

For me, I love doing science, thinking about problems, and hope to one day apply clinical knowledge gained during medical school, residency and fellowship to advance our understanding of basic disease processes. I would encourage applicants and students with similar interests to not lose sight of their goals.
 
Bluntman said:
Bro, this is over-generalizing here. Certainly there are some advisors for which this is true, but there are others whose first priority (in regards to training) is training their students to know how to manage a lab, write competitive proposals, learn the politics/culture, and ultimately be successful scientists in the competitive world of academia.

Let me guess...do you know a couple particular friends/relatives that made you bitter about the whole bio PhD idea by getting screwed over in the way you speak of? :rolleyes:

Actually...

I hate to say this, but a lot of time it is a crapshoot. A lot of us on another discussion board where I am an active discussant focus on the "postdoc pipeliner problem" and that Ph.D.'s are being trained for the "wrong" types of jobs that are available. Industry hiring managers are sending messages that they see a lack of qualified job candidates, while there are too many postdocs for the number of tenure-track positions that are available. Many of the meetings I attend (I'm a member of the National Postdoctoral Association) decry the fact that mentoring and proper oversight for the training of biomedical scientists is a crapshoot.

Sure there are some mentors who are great, but people don't choose labs because of mentorship. Faculty don't get promoted because of mentorship. Instead faculty are promoted and tenured due to grant funding, pubs, and leading membership in scholarly communities. Postdocs should choose to work with "high profile" faculty or else when they go after a t-t position at a prestigious institution, they will lose out to others who did work with high-profile faculty.

Of course, you can still do scientific research if you have an M.D. You just have to align yourself with good basic science laboratories during your residency or research portion of your fellowship. You even have specific grant mechanisms to attract M.D.'s to doing basic or clinically oriented research.

Granted, I'm not sure that medical education is any better. I don't think that med ed does much with journalism or clinical trials or public policy (but I could be mistaken). Most M.D.'s expect to go into residency, not start their own practice as soon as they graduate. (In the same vein, most Ph.D.'s aren't expected to run their own labs after they graduate.)

Anyway, read a lot of our other threads on ScienceCareers... or keep posting here. :)

PS: Hey Doctor&Geek! :)
 
MasonPrehealth, thank you for posting those links. They paint a very bleak and depressing outlook for researchers in the life sciences.
 
I'm just back from a MDPhD recruiting event and we were just talking about these things at dinner. Habari had a really excellent post. I just want to quickly make a couple of final comments on my part. This thread really got hijacked into something else, but still these are the perennial issues facing the medical scientists.

I'm not dissing MD/PhD. I think it's one of the better options out there if you want to do translational research. I'm dissing PhD and I think a lot of bio PhD students are being unfairly treated and badly trained. I think for a career in translational research, a MD only in fact is a better option than a PhD, unless your intended research area is very very specific and you know for sure that it's not going to change. (For instance, you are just absolutely convinced you'll do DNA methylation for life, in that case, do a PhD.) Today medical schools want "touchy-feely" students and shuffle the science nerds to MD/PhD or PhD programs. I think it's really a bad shift. Many have noted that we need more physicans who have very solid scientific training and a research background, and we need more physicians to do research.

As for PhD, it's very unstructured. The dread really creeps up on you. It's not hard to just sit there and waste many years doing nothing. It's possible to make it really productive, but it's REALLY hard. I was telling people that in the past eight month the only thing I did that was really productive was I learned some very useful mathematical techniques. Data, even data coming from the best labs, can often be inaccurate and misleading, if not outright fraudulent. I'm experiencing this right now. Experiments are unreliable and often unreproducible. Doing science is a gamble. It's a crapshoot. It's trying to produce something right knowning full well that the odds are you'll only find noise or make many mistakes. It's an enormous sacrifice! I mean it sounds sort of edifying but it's really true! Some of the brightest kids out there are sacrificing the best days of their lives playing lottery. On the other hand, what else in life isn't a gamble? It's just that we tended to have an illusion that science isn't like another career, that it's a purely rational, organized pursuit. I've been slowly disillusioned, and realized that science isn't special. Is it worth it? Maybe. Maybe not. It's really all up to you.
 
sluox, I don't know if I understood you right, but you've gone from dissing PHDs in the sense that researchers are not trained well (which I honestly don't know since I'm not in that field yet, but I do agree with some of what you're saying, that having PHD won't necessarily assure you a comfortable future in your career), to dissing science and the scientific method as a whole! I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. No, science is not gambling. Luck is definitely involved, but there are certain intellectual skills that are involved with the scientific method. If you do not appreciate the scientific method, then you should not be on that career track. In that case, the problem is not in the method, but (no offense intended) with you not liking it. Science is the most accurate and reliable way to discover the world, and you don't have those immense scientific developments of the last two centuries because of gambling.

I don't agree with that statement also: "unless your intended research area is very very specific and you know for sure that it's not going to change. (For instance, you are just absolutely convinced you'll do DNA methylation for life, in that case, do a PhD.)"

The purpouse of graduate school is to train you on the use of the scientific method, and not let you memorize information on DNA methylation. If you know how to conduct science, which you will basically know from graduate school, you can transfer that knowledge to basically any area you want. All it takes is reading a couple of books on the knowledge aquired on the topic before you begin researching it. Like people mentioned here, knowledge from graduate school is not about memorizing and knowing sepcific information. It is about developping research skills.

Plus, most graduate programs offer courses on generally wide topics anyway.
 
While I disagree with sluox to certain extent about the value of PhD training, I do agree that quality could certainly be improved. Granted, who I am to judge that seeing I won't enter my graduate training for another 2 years?

In regards to his questioning of the scientific menthod, I am not sure he is questioning the scientific method, rather commenting on how a lot biological research is quite speculative (maybe not the best word...). I mean we all probably wish things could be a more concrete. We struggle for months or years to get something to work after adjusting the conditions over and over, and then finally "get it to work." And then try to repeat it, and fail. But decide that 1 time was good enough to base our conclusions on it. I am exaggerating to a certain extent here,but with biological systems, we are dealing with so many variables. We can only control for so many. While we think we understand so much about biology, our grasp appears to still be a weaker than we would all like.
 
sluox said:
i know someone graduating this year who's going into financial services without a residency.

The starting salary for doing financial analysis of healthcare/biotech companies for a top firm (i.e. morgan stanley etc) is the same level as an MBA graduate, i.e. $150,000 in new york, with bonus depending on your ability to play the game. It's possible to get quickly promoted to VP level, and that usually pays around $250,000 base and a variable bonus. at managing director level, you get $1 mil base plus as much as $50 mil bonus depending on the deals you get. however, such promotions are notably competitive in investment banking. but the option is there if you want to go that path.

It seems to me that this path better suited for an MD/MBA than an MD/PhD. I mean, wouldn't this combo of degrees be more attractive to a Morgan Stanley than an MD or MD/PhD?
 
Reimat said:
It seems to me that this path better suited for an MD/MBA than an MD/PhD. I mean, wouldn't this combo of degrees be more attractive to a Morgan Stanley than an MD or MD/PhD?
what about an MD/PhD/MBA? You could be in school forever. Or try to grab an MBA during the PhD years.
 
jjmack said:
what about an MD/PhD/MBA? You could be in school forever. Or try to grab an MBA during the PhD years.

Lol... that sad part is that I think that would be awesome
 
jjmack said:
Or try to grab an MBA during the PhD years.


And on the way home tonight I will just stop and grab a JD--haha why not?
 
Habari said:
When you find your 20-something-self sitting in the midtown offices of the Blackstone Group at 1:30AM on a friday night, calling your merger and acquisitions lawyer at Skadden who picks up immediately

Let's compare this to a more relevant situation from my life...I find my 20-something-self at midnight on Saturday synthesizing compounds and running gels. Then, I walk down the hall and see my friend doing the exact same thing in the next lab over.
 
Since this is related to the topic of this thread, I would like to ask if it's possible or if it's common that md/phds do their residency in an area not related to their PHD program. Also, do MD/PHDs get any sort of advantage over their PHD counterparts when it comes to research in job position in academia and/or industry?
 
NGN47 said:
And on the way home tonight I will just stop and grab a JD--haha why not?

I know an MD/PhD applying to law school later this year. I'll I have to say about that is Cha-Ching!!!!! :laugh:
 
Jorje286 said:
I would like to ask if it's possible or if it's common that md/phds do their residency in an area not related to their PHD program.

Yes--no problem from what I have seen. A PhD teaches you how to do science.

Jorje286 said:
Also, do MD/PHDs get any sort of advantage over their PHD counterparts when it comes to research in job position in academia and/or industry?


Yes. The MD and residency training makes you far more employable by an academic medical center. For industry, it is less common to see MSTP graduates. However, if you look into who is, for example, the R&D heads in pharma and biotech, you will see many MD/PhD's. More than straight MD's or PhD's? No, but that is because there are fewer to begin with. People from industry that come through my school to give talks etc have looked favorably on the MSTP.
 
1Path said:
I know an MD/PhD applying to law school later this year. I'll I have to say about that is Cha-Ching!!!!! :laugh:
that is a lot of education...
 
Question...
Once the MD/PhD is obtained, how often, or is it even possible, would it be to work as an MD (say, in an emergency room) for 2 days, and work as a PhD (in a lab doing research) 3-4 days?
 
number77 said:
Question...
Once the MD/PhD is obtained, how often, or is it even possible, would it be to work as an MD (say, in an emergency room) for 2 days, and work as a PhD (in a lab doing research) 3-4 days?
Typically it will not be such an even split. The commitment needed to successfully maintain a lab at a competitive major university usually precludes you from spending 2/7 = ~ 30% of your time in the clinic.
 
Anecdotally, it seems more like an 80/20 split in either direction, if even that.

-X

Bluntman said:
Typically it will not be such an even split. The commitment needed to successfully maintain a lab at a competitive major university usually precludes you from spending 2/7 = ~ 30% of your time in the clinic.
 
number77 said:
Question...
Once the MD/PhD is obtained, how often, or is it even possible, would it be to work as an MD (say, in an emergency room) for 2 days, and work as a PhD (in a lab doing research) 3-4 days?
It's uncommon but I'm sure it's not unheard of for ER docs to do bench research. The ER is not compatible with basic bench research at all.....clinical/translation research....definitely.
 
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