Multiple GPAs

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ADSigMel

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I have an undergrad GPA (from a state school) as well as a law school GPA (from a private T14 school). My undergrad GPA is okay. My law school GPA is sub-par, but not terrible. Anybody have any insight as to whether a med school will look at the trend (downward, but in two different programs and at two different schools with two very different reputations) vs. the average GPA (mediocre, considering that the law school GPA drags the undergrad GPA down substantially) vs. some other analysis?

I don't have any bio/chem/physics/math grades in college, so no sGPA yet. I got credit for them in high school via dual enrollment, or something like it, but my transcript only reflects them as P/F. I'm taking bio/orgo/biochem pre-reqs over the next year, before I apply, so the adcom will have current grades to look at in the sciences.
 
There is sub-par and there is sub-par. If your law school GPA is under 3.0, that is going to drag you down.

Either way, if your next 30 credits are 4.0, that is going to go a long way. Remember that stats aren't everything, and it sounds like you have some stories to tell.

Did you finish law school?
 
There is sub-par and there is sub-par. If your law school GPA is under 3.0, that is going to drag you down.

Either way, if your next 30 credits are 4.0, that is going to go a long way. Remember that stats aren't everything, and it sounds like you have some stories to tell.

Did you finish law school?

My law school GPA was 2.9, so, yeah. Not awesome. I did finish law school, though, passed the bar, and have been practicing law for close to 9 years now. My poor GPA came mostly from the fact that I literally gave zero f***s about law school. I was only there because my dad was strongly in favor of me becoming a lawyer. I hated every minute of it, but Daddy was holding the purse-strings back then, which ended up being irrelevant, since he didn't pay for my law school anyway, and I ended up with $120k in loans. But, I digress.

Your law school GPA is meaningless. P/F grades are difficult to interpret, especially AP coursework from college. You need to demonstrate that you can handle a medical school curriculum.

I hope my law school GPA is meaningless to the adcom, because it didn't mean all that much to me when I was earning it. I agree that the P/F stuff from high school is probably not going to be all that amazing when it comes to med school. It wasn't AP though. It was that if I got an A or B in high school, I got college credit for it to any public school in my state - it was a special arrangement because of it being an advanced high school, which the adcom from my target med school should be familiar with, since the high school and college are in the same city and the students from the high school do research in conjunction with professors at the university. But in the event that the adcom doesn't know/care about my super fancy high school coursework, I'm taking six more science courses before I apply, so they can see and be amazed at how much butt I still kick.
 
" I'm taking six more science courses before I apply, so they can see and be amazed at how much butt I still kick."

Lol.
 
My law school GPA was 2.9, so, yeah. Not awesome. I did finish law school, though, passed the bar, and have been practicing law for close to 9 years now. My poor GPA came mostly from the fact that I literally gave zero f***s about law school. I was only there because my dad was strongly in favor of me becoming a lawyer. I hated every minute of it, but Daddy was holding the purse-strings back then, which ended up being irrelevant, since he didn't pay for my law school anyway, and I ended up with $120k in loans. But, I digress.

Oh! This is a very different situation than someone who didn't finish at all, or finished and never practiced. You are a seasoned professional with several years of accomplishments since your last academic pursuit. If you put in the work to do well in your pre-reqs, I think you will have no difficulty at all to find a seat. You should still aim for the best application that you can put together, but if you do demonstrate strong performance in your pre-reqs and a high enough MCAT score, along with some interesting ECs, a few low grades in law school shouldn't hold you back at all.

And your reason for not getting higher grades works to your advantage. If your heart wasn't in it, because it wasn't your true calling, then that just gives you an opening to shift the focus from your grades back to your burning passion to serve others through the practice of medicine.
 
I hope my law school GPA is meaningless to the adcom, because it didn't mean all that much to me when I was earning it. I agree that the P/F stuff from high school is probably not going to be all that amazing when it comes to med school. It wasn't AP though. It was that if I got an A or B in high school, I got college credit for it to any public school in my state - it was a special arrangement because of it being an advanced high school, which the adcom from my target med school should be familiar with, since the high school and college are in the same city and the students from the high school do research in conjunction with professors at the university. But in the event that the adcom doesn't know/care about my super fancy high school coursework, I'm taking six more science courses before I apply, so they can see and be amazed at how much butt I still kick.

I guarantee the adcom does NOT care about any high school coursework. College coursework is what counts and I think you have quite a ways to go before you are ready to apply. Do NOT apply before you are ready. Do NOT take the MCAT before you are ready. This means having your prereqs done first (and I'm not counting any high school classes in this). You need, realistically, Biology 1/2, General Chem 1/2, Organic Chem 1/2, Physics 1/2, Biochem 1, Psychology, and maybe a Sociology course given the new MCAT material. Once you take those courses and do well, then you take the MCAT. Do well in that and you are ready to apply. Since you only want to apply to maybe one MD and maybe one DO school, you better make your shot good, because you realistically have one shot to make a good impression.

You need shadowing and volunteering as well. And not just a little bit.

Good luck.
 
I hear you. I'm not planning to apply until next summer, at the earliest. I'm planning to take Gen Bio I and II, Orgo I and II, and Biochem I and II. I'm going to audit Gen Chem as a refresher before Orgo. I've already got a ton of psych and socio from undergrad. I'm also thinking of taking an MCAT prep course next spring/summer before I take the exam. I'm not in a big rush. If I don't feel prepared for the MCAT after I've completed the required pre-reqs, I'll take some more. The longer I take to get my ducks in a row, the longer I have to continue practicing law and saving money before I go from making six figures to zero figures.

I'm starting shadowing this week. As far as volunteering, I'm a member of Junior League (sixth year), I mentor for Big Brothers Big Sisters, and I serve on two non-profit boards, in addition to the volunteer work I do in conjunction with my church, work, and other things here and there. I also regularly do pro bono legal work, and I just submitted an application to volunteer at one of our area hospitals (one attached to the med school where I'm applying, as a matter of fact). I probably volunteer around 300 hours of my time in the average year. I think I do need to get some medical-related volunteering in, though, hence the application to volunteer at the hospital.
 
I hear you. I'm not planning to apply until next summer, at the earliest. I'm planning to take Gen Bio I and II, Orgo I and II, and Biochem I and II. I'm going to audit Gen Chem as a refresher before Orgo. I've already got a ton of psych and socio from undergrad. I'm also thinking of taking an MCAT prep course next spring/summer before I take the exam. I'm not in a big rush. If I don't feel prepared for the MCAT after I've completed the required pre-reqs, I'll take some more. The longer I take to get my ducks in a row, the longer I have to continue practicing law and saving money before I go from making six figures to zero figures.

I'm starting shadowing this week. As far as volunteering, I'm a member of Junior League (sixth year), I mentor for Big Brothers Big Sisters, and I serve on two non-profit boards, in addition to the volunteer work I do in conjunction with my church, work, and other things here and there. I also regularly do pro bono legal work, and I just submitted an application to volunteer at one of our area hospitals (one attached to the med school where I'm applying, as a matter of fact). I probably volunteer around 300 hours of my time in the average year. I think I do need to get some medical-related volunteering in, though, hence the application to volunteer at the hospital.

If you're going to audit General Chemistry, why not just take the class and use it as another way to boost that GPA on up? I also don't see you listing Physics on there at all. When are you planning that?
 
I hear you. I'm not planning to apply until next summer, at the earliest. I'm planning to take Gen Bio I and II, Orgo I and II, and Biochem I and II. I'm going to audit Gen Chem as a refresher before Orgo. I've already got a ton of psych and socio from undergrad. I'm also thinking of taking an MCAT prep course next spring/summer before I take the exam. I'm not in a big rush. If I don't feel prepared for the MCAT after I've completed the required pre-reqs, I'll take some more. The longer I take to get my ducks in a row, the longer I have to continue practicing law and saving money before I go from making six figures to zero figures.

I'm starting shadowing this week. As far as volunteering, I'm a member of Junior League (sixth year), I mentor for Big Brothers Big Sisters, and I serve on two non-profit boards, in addition to the volunteer work I do in conjunction with my church, work, and other things here and there. I also regularly do pro bono legal work, and I just submitted an application to volunteer at one of our area hospitals (one attached to the med school where I'm applying, as a matter of fact). I probably volunteer around 300 hours of my time in the average year. I think I do need to get some medical-related volunteering in, though, hence the application to volunteer at the hospital.

Yeah... when you said you were a lawyer in practice x 9 years, I figured your extracurricular list was going to look like that.

You are right that you need a little clinical experience... at least enough to prove that you know what you are getting into. If you can arrange a very part time job as a patient care technician or scribe, that is also good. Clinical exposure doesn't have to be all volunteer, and a lot of hospital volunteerism isn't particularly clinical. Once you take care of that though, I have a feeling that you will have a very strong app. (Assuming MCAT/GPA work out.) No one should ever feel too overconfident, but I have a funny feeling that you are going to end up where you want to be.
 
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Law degree is looked at more like an EC. The grades aren't as focused on, certainly not averaged in or looked at for trends. A poor law school GPA might give places pause as to how you will do in another professional school while a high law school GPA won't help you. There's a lot of belief, a lot of it warranted, that there's a ton of grade inflation in graduate and professional schools so poor grades can be a red flag. A 2.9 years ago probably isn't bad enough to sink you, although I am sure you realize breaking 3.0 would have looked much better.
 
...If you put in the work to do well in your pre-reqs, I think you will have no difficulty at all to find a seat...
And your reason for not getting higher grades works to your advantage. If your heart wasn't in it, because it wasn't your true calling, then that just gives you an opening to shift the focus from your grades back to your burning passion to serve others through the practice of medicine.

Let's not go ahead and anoint OP with a"no difficulty at all to find a seat". It's going to be difficult. We know from another thread she might only apply to one program (bad idea IMHO) and all the stats aren't even in the books. You don't get to go to med school just because you were previously a lawyer and you certainly aren't able to just pick one med school and expect them to throw open the doors. So you are kind of blowing smoke up her bum here.

I think ones saying "her heart wasn't in it" to me really doesn't sound like a great excuse for poor law school grades. If I was the adcom I would worry -- "how do I know her heart will be in it this time?" (In fact in another post OP suggested she might be inclined to use the first semester to test the waters, rather than be "all in", which to me sounds like a recipe for not having your heart in it).

Truth of the matter is these kinds of excuses don't work well on this path. Saying you were "young and stupid" gets a little traction where you go back and rehabilitate (and thus prove you can do well in those same courses now that you are older) but it only gets you so far here. And Adcoms certain believe there's more grade inflation in graduate and professional schools. A 2.9 probably isn't bad enough be be a real problem, but let's not kid, it is a bit of a red flag.
 
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Let's not go ahead and anoint OP with a"no difficulty at all to find a seat". It's going to be difficult. We know from another thread she might only apply to one program (bad idea IMHO) and all the stats aren't even in the books. You don't get to go to med school just because you were previously a lawyer and you certainly aren't able to just pick one med school and expect them to throw open the doors. So you are kind of blowing smoke up her bum here.

I think ones saying "her heart wasn't in it" to me really doesn't sound like a great excuse for poor law school grades. If I was the adcom I would worry -- "how do I know her heart will be in it this time?" (In fact in another post OP suggested she might be inclined to use the first semester to test the waters, rather than be "all in", which to me sounds like a recipe for not having your heart in it).

Truth of the matter is these kinds of excuses don't work well on this path. Saying you were "young and stupid" gets a little traction where you go back and rehabilitate (and thus prove you can do well in those same courses now that you are older) but it only gets you so far here. And Adcoms certain believe there's more grade inflation in graduate and professional schools. A 2.9 probably isn't bad enough be be a real problem, but let's not kid, it is a bit of a red flag.

Fair enough. I didn't mean it to sound like an anointing.

My "no difficulty" statement was based upon her doing all the things that I assume that a serious, prudent applicant would do.
- apply broadly, not just to one school (Didn't really pay attention if that was her plan) & apply MD + DO
- put in a strong performance on the MCAT (Which I maintain is primarily a test of reading comprehension and cognition, rather than pure subject mastery)
- as I said, do well in pre-reqs. By that I mean 20-30 credits of 4.0 performance
- put in some hours getting dirty and smelling patients. The more hands on, the better, since it helps make her case that she knows what she is getting into.

I may have erred on the side of "you can do it!" because I wanted to provide a counterweight to the prevailing SDN attitude of "2.9? Ugh... no way." Also, possibly I have too much respect for lawyers as people who have formal training in performing due diligence, and in evaluating statements for nuance, fact vs. opinion, etc.
 
Let's not go ahead and anoint OP with a"no difficulty at all to find a seat". It's going to be difficult. We know from another thread she might only apply to one program (bad idea IMHO) and all the stats aren't even in the books. You don't get to go to med school just because you were previously a lawyer and you certainly aren't able to just pick one med school and expect them to throw open the doors. So you are kind of blowing smoke up her bum here.

I think ones saying "her heart wasn't in it" to me really doesn't sound like a great excuse for poor law school grades. If I was the adcom I would worry -- "how do I know her heart will be in it this time?" (In fact in another post OP suggested she might be inclined to use the first semester to test the waters, rather than be "all in", which to me sounds like a recipe for not having your heart in it).

Truth of the matter is these kinds of excuses don't work well on this path. Saying you were "young and stupid" gets a little traction where you go back and rehabilitate (and thus prove you can do well in those same courses now that you are older) but it only gets you so far here. And Adcoms certain believe there's more grade inflation in graduate and professional schools. A 2.9 probably isn't bad enough be be a real problem, but let's not kid, it is a bit of a red flag.


I definitely expect it to be difficult to find a seat. If I thought it would be easy, I'd probably have jumped in instead of really taking the time to think it through and ask questions. I'm not sure where all I will apply (or even if I will apply - I'm still in the very early stages of even thinking about this). That's going to depend on a lot more than just me - I've got a husband and three small children, so there's more to consider than "apply to every school in the country and go to whichever offers a spot." I don't see it going well if I get a spot in a place where my husband can't work and/or we don't have anyone to help with the kids. So there is zero point in my applying to a bunch of schools where I wouldn't accept a seat.

Also, I didn't suggest (or at least, I didn't MEAN to suggest) that I would use a first semester to test the waters. What I recall saying is that, should I end up at the University of [Where My Husband Can't Find a Job and I Can't Find a Babysitter to Watch My Kids while I'm Doing Rotations At All Hours], it would be really nice if I at least liked med school. Whereas, if I am lucky enough to get into my first choice of school, in a place where my husband already has his dream job, and we have a support system to pick up my family-duties slack, if it turns out that I'm miserable (as I expect many med students are at some point), at least I won't also have to deal with massive amounts of guilt from having screwed up life for everyone in my family, not just myself. I don't think it's wrong of me to consider that, in the worst case scenario, my local school would still be the best of several potentially bad situations.

P.S. I can only wish that my law school had inflated grades. I'd have paid extra for that handy feature.
 
I definitely expect it to be difficult to find a seat. If I thought it would be easy, I'd probably have jumped in instead of really taking the time to think it through and ask questions. I'm not sure where all I will apply (or even if I will apply - I'm still in the very early stages of even thinking about this). That's going to depend on a lot more than just me - I've got a husband and three small children, so there's more to consider than "apply to every school in the country and go to whichever offers a spot." I don't see it going well if I get a spot in a place where my husband can't work and/or we don't have anyone to help with the kids. So there is zero point in my applying to a bunch of schools where I wouldn't accept a seat.

Also, I didn't suggest (or at least, I didn't MEAN to suggest) that I would use a first semester to test the waters. What I recall saying is that, should I end up at the University of [Where My Husband Can't Find a Job and I Can't Find a Babysitter to Watch My Kids while I'm Doing Rotations At All Hours], it would be really nice if I at least liked med school. Whereas, if I am lucky enough to get into my first choice of school, in a place where my husband already has his dream job, and we have a support system to pick up my family-duties slack, if it turns out that I'm miserable (as I expect many med students are at some point), at least I won't also have to deal with massive amounts of guilt from having screwed up life for everyone in my family, not just myself. I don't think it's wrong of me to consider that, in the worst case scenario, my local school would still be the best of several potentially bad situations.

P.S. I can only wish that my law school had inflated grades. I'd have paid extra for that handy feature.

I also had some strict limitations on where I could go, geographically. So, I applied to just a couple of schools, and I didn't finish the application for the 2nd one when it was clear that I was going to get into the one I wanted. There are a lot of people who would tell you that doing that was, at best, a ridiculous gamble and probably unforgivably foolish.

The reason it worked is that my stats were exceptional for the school I had chosen, and my EC's and clinical background would have made a strong case for me at any school. The narrower your applications, the more desirable an applicant you will need to be.

Study hard in those science courses, get a tutor early if you need one, and be sure that you are mastering the concepts. I took my basic science pre-reqs with an outline of the topics tested on the MCAT ready at hand. As we moved through the courses, I annotated that outline, being certain that I understood and could apply each topic. Don't take the test until you are ready, and give it your best shot the first time you take it. Scores aren't everything, but the higher the score, the better your options are likely to be.

When you do apply, have your application completely ready to submit at 9am on day one of the application cycle. That isn't really an exaggeration. The sooner you submit it, the more quickly it gets through the verification process and goes out to the schools, the more seats will still be available when schools start scheduling interviews. The prevailing wisdom around SDN is that if adcoms have 95% of their seats to give away, they can afford to be more generous with them than when they get down to 50% or fewer seats open.

It is wise not to bother applying to schools that you wouldn't consider attending... but as you make your school list, try to give yourself as many options as possible. If there is any school that you WOULD be happy to attend, if that were the only way you would get to go, at least include them on your primary application. It is always nice to have options.
 
There is sub-par and there is sub-par. If your law school GPA is under 3.0, that is going to drag you down.

Either way, if your next 30 credits are 4.0, that is going to go a long way. Remember that stats aren't everything, and it sounds like you have some stories to tell.

Did you finish law school?

You sound like someone who doesn't have any idea about law schools. Grading is strictly curved to a C+ or B- median at most law schools.

OP, my law school GPA was 2.83 and I received 7 interviews and 4 acceptances out of 9 MD schools applied to. It will play no factor in your applications.
 
You sound like someone who doesn't have any idea about law schools. Grading is strictly curved to a C+ or B- median at most law schools.

OP, my law school GPA was 2.83 and I received 7 interviews and 4 acceptances out of 9 MD schools applied to. It will play no factor in your applications.

Wow. In one thread, I've been accused of underestimating the quality of this applicant AND of anointing her as God's gift to medical schools.

Apparently, I am very wily. Maybe I should ask @Goro what I need to do to become an Admissions Dean some day.
 
You sound like someone who doesn't have any idea about law schools. Grading is strictly curved to a C+ or B- median at most law schools.

OP, my law school GPA was 2.83 and I received 7 interviews and 4 acceptances out of 9 MD schools applied to. It will play no factor in your applications.

The better law schools tend to be a bit more generous with grades, in my experience. Having gone to one law school and taken additional coursework at another, IMHO Adcoms are not being too unrealistic in believing that there's some degree of grade inflation going on, on average. But regardless of whether that's an accurate depiction of law schools, it IS going to be many Adcom members' PERCEPTION, and perception is what really matters here more than the reality. If they think you ought to have gotten over a 3.0 in law school, then that's what you should have gotten.

I am glad your grades played no factor, but it is wrong to conclude that you, with a very different application than OP will have the identical experience. And you actually don't know that you wouldn't have had 9 interviews or 9 acceptances with a better law GPA, so maybe it did "play a factor" even if it didn't ultimately impact your career.

And of most import, I would point out that you didn't get into more than half the med schools you applied, so that should be the real take home message from your post for OP who is thinking of applying to one school. This poster didn't get everyplace he applied, I didn't, no lawyer does. You need to be able to apply widely if you are serious about med school. If you'll only do med school if it's convenient I just can't see this as panning out. Maybe you'll get into the one med school you apply but then in 4 years what? Or 3 after that?
 
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I think it might be time to put this thread to rest. As of now, we don't have any truly useful information (cGPA, sGPA, MCAT score, volunteer work, clinical experiences, shadowing, academic/professional awards, etc). A poster has stated that medical school is the goal but that he/she is not totally willing to upend their life to make it happen i.e. applying outside of one school. Totally respectable but highly unadvisable for practical reasons such as 60% of medical school applicants not matriculating. I think the OP needs to spend some more time learning what this process entails and taking concrete steps in the direction of applying. Once he/she has more of the pre med coursework completed then more useful advice can be given. Every poster in the pre-med forum is confident of their ability to excel in pre-med classes and I am willing to bet that less than half actually do. Until there is more to go on, we are just spinning our wheels.

OP, best of luck to you.
 
GreenDuck12 is right, I don't have enough stats to provide to be able to decide what my chances are of getting into Med school. I thank you all, though, for answering my original question about how my law school GPA might affect my overall application.

I will be back when I have a new cGPA (with post-bac hours added), an sGPA (from my post-bac courses), an MCAT score, and some clinical experience. I need to find an AMCAS application and maybe a sample secondary or two so I can see how all of this information is formatted on applications. It would help me to know how I should be tracking things like shadowing hours and such.


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The better law schools tend to be a bit more generous with grades, in my experience. Having gone to one law school and taken additional coursework at another, IMHO Adcoms are not being too unrealistic in believing that there's some degree of grade inflation going on, on average. But regardless of whether that's an accurate depiction of law schools, it IS going to be many Adcom members' PERCEPTION, and perception is what really matters here more than the reality. If they think you ought to have gotten over a 3.0 in law school, then that's what you should have gotten.

I am glad your grades played no factor, but it is wrong to conclude that you, with a very different application than OP will have the identical experience. And you actually don't know that you wouldn't have had 9 interviews or 9 acceptances with a better law GPA, so maybe it did "play a factor" even if it didn't ultimately impact your career.

And of most import, I would point out that you didn't get into more than half the med schools you applied, so that should be the real take home message from your post for OP who is thinking of applying to one school. This poster didn't get everyplace he applied, I didn't, no lawyer does. You need to be able to apply widely if you are serious about med school. If you'll only do med school if it's convenient I just can't see this as panning out. Maybe you'll get into the one med school you apply but then in 4 years what? Or 3 after that?

I didn't get interviews at all the places I applied because I was yield-protected by 2 safety schools with the lowest numbers among the schools I applied to. I did not get accepted to every school I interviewed at because I am in Texas where we have the match. I was not rejected at any of the schools I interviewed at.
 
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