MUST READ: Whatever you do, do NOT go to graduate school!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Perrotfish]

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This isn't true.

My older brother has a PhD in Chem E and these guys are VERY employable, and making bank. Even with just a masters. Admittedly, they kill themselves getting through engineering so they deserve it.

It's like anything else, if you're a toad in the way you work or package yourself then you're going to have to get use to living in the mud. It's always about contributions you've made and your ability to convince others of delivering in the future. What your diploma says is irrelevent if you don't deliver - and this is almost always the case with underachievers - it's a competition all the way to the end.

Well that's my n=1...

You're missng the point. anyone with an BS in ChemE is extremely employable for amazing salaries. The PhD/masters, though, doesn't add much to that. You just get the same amazing salary that you would have gotten with the undergrad degree, or at least not enough of a boost to justify the years and stress you pour into it.

 

[NFkappaB]

8 first author pubs? Or 8 total pubs? Also, why the hell did you do three post-docs? Two post-docs looks bad, three is insane.

Look people are going to be bitter everywhere. If you don't like research, don't do it. Especially don't do it for **10** years after undergrad.

It's true that most people going into grad school won't be able to get academic positions, but you're making things out to be far more doom and gloom than they really are. Industrial jobs aren't as bad as you're making them sound. They're somewhat competitive, yes, but most people are able to pull something off. I don't know of anybody from our lab that has been unable to find work, and well paying work at that. In the last year, we sent three post-docs on to top academic positions, one started a biotech, and the other three got jobs, all paying over $100k/yr. If you really like science, you're reasonably smart, and you're willing to put in the work, you can still do quite well in science.


I also have no idea where you're at that you're claiming the average postdocs are 40-50 yrs old. I call BS. Our oldest current postdoc is 33. The oldest I've ever seen was approaching 40, and the average is right around 30.

First of all, in the 8 publications under my name, I was first author in 3 of them. Of those 3 publications, one was in PNAS and other 2 was in circulation research. Of the other 5 where I was co-author, one was in the British journal Lancet.


Second of all, if you had read my earlier posts where I gave links to numerous articles about life as a post-doc, you would understand that OVERALL, industry and academia scientist positions far outnumber the number of post-docs. As a conservative estimate, there are at least TWICE more post-docs than combined positions in academia and industry. So, by logic, wouldn't those post-docs who have not secured such jobs keep on working as post-docs until they are in their 40s or 50s?? Read that article "perpetual post-docs." Also, read "Do we really need more scientists?"

Third of all, I bet you don't have a Ph.D yourself. You speak on behalf of your observations of your lab, which is one out of tens of thousands in USA. I have actually gotten a Ph.D from a leading research center and I speak from EXPERIENCE, rather than observation, that most, if not all, of my graduating classes have not found anything other than post-docs.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I disagree with this (and completely agree with the OP). If you are unable to get into medical school, do not i repeat DO NOT do a masters/phD. There are other ways you can improve your chances. I would recommend an SMP (sort of masters) or instead work as a research assitant and take part time courses (science courses). I think a masters/phD is a waste of time, if all you want to do is medical school.

I disagree. I think a masters is a wonderful route to take if you want to go to medical school and gives you options if you don't go in. This is especially true if you don't pay tuition. I considering an SMP but seriously, my chance of getting into medical school would probably worse than it is now AND if I didn't get in, what the hell does a SMP mean to anyone? Nothing except you tried to get into medical school and failed. And now have even more debt. A masters gives me more of a wide background that can be transferable to other fields (what I mean is I have a good idea on how to write grants, review literature, do research -- even if it isn't in the field my masters is in).

Additionally, if a student has already taken too many courses, why keep taking science courses just too boost your GPA. It seems like a waste of time. And maybe now the options are better, but a year ago when I was applying to research positions, no one was biting at a recent undergrad lab assistant. A masters seemed like a good alternative.

 

[brooklynblunder]

if you have to pay for your masters, i would avoid it as a pathway to medical school. if you can find a good mentor in a research year or IRTA@NIH, i would go that way

 

[brooklynblunder]

First of all, in the 8 publications under my name, I was first author in 3 of them. Of those 3 publications, one was in PNAS and other 2 was in circulation research. Of the other 5 where I was co-author, one was in the British journal Lancet.


Second of all, if you had read my earlier posts where I gave links to numerous articles about life as a post-doc, you would understand that OVERALL, industry and academia scientist positions far outnumber the number of post-docs. As a conservative estimate, there are at least TWICE more post-docs than combined positions in academia and industry. So, by logic, wouldn't those post-docs who have not secured such jobs keep on working as post-docs until they are in their 40s or 50s?? Read that article "perpetual post-docs." Also, read "Do we really need more scientists?"

Third of all, I bet you don't have a Ph.D yourself. You speak on behalf of your observations of your lab, which is one out of tens of thousands in USA. I have actually gotten a Ph.D from a leading research center and I speak from EXPERIENCE, rather than observation, that most, if not all, of my graduating classes have not found anything other than post-docs.

I'm pretty sure he has a PhD, and is going to med school now.

 

[NFkappaB]

I'm pretty sure he has a PhD, and is going to med school now.

I didn't think he had a Ph.D when he said it was "insane" for me to do 3 post-docs in 3 years. Many post-doc positions are funded only for one year, and you want to move around to diversify your experience and research anyways.

 

[imer]

...

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I didn't think he had a Ph.D when he said it was "insane" for me to do 3 post-docs in 3 years. Many post-doc positions are funded only for one year, and you want to move around to diversify your experience and research anyways.

I would disagree. Find a post-doc in a good lab with a good professor who renews his grants every year. Do as much focused research as you can -- get your name on a lot of publications -- first author alot and really stand out in your field of interest (so you get invite to speak at conferences and go to poster presentations, ect). That makes more sense than doing three different post-docs where you don't have the time to really master anything before leaving. Or maybe I just have a really amazing post-doc in my lab.

 

[NFkappaB]

I guess at this point I want to say that, the very fact that 1,500 people on this forum has viewed this thread, and so far not a single person has posted any success stories with their own life-science degrees. Quite telling, isn't it?

No doubt a majority of you pre-meds are life science majors, and not a single person so far can post their own personal success? Could it be that, there is indeed no jobs/careers for life science grads?

 

[softmed]

meh

I did a masters and it got me 3 acceptances out of 10 schools applied. Besides that my application hadn't changed from the year before when I had zero acceptances.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

No doubt a majority of you pre-meds are life science majors, and not a single person so far can post their own personal success? Could it be that, there is indeed no jobs/careers for life science grads?

You are on a pre-med forum! Not a post-doc forum. A success story to us is to get into medical school. Our goal is not to go into life sciences but medical school so yes, we might go after a masters or phd to get us ECs for medical school... but none of us are aiming for post-docs or professorships or amazing jobs and careers in the life sciences. If I do not get in this round of medical school, I don't plan to continue on with my graduate school because I know I don't want a phd or a post-doc or to do just research for the rest of my life. I would graduate then and get a job and re-evaluate what my goals are in life.

Regardless though, YOU are this forums PERSONAL SUCCESS STORY. You took a long road to medical school and made some mistakes, but you got in -- you are getting your MD. Don't try to discourage students who might actually want to do research and get a PhD and go on to do a post-doc ect, claiming that their is no success stories. THERE ARE. But none of them will be hanging around pre-med forums trying to post their successes. (Students entering into graduate schools know the troubles they will face in their career if they both to do any research. Maybe no one bothered to tell you because they all knew you planned on going to medical school one day)

 

[softmed]

I guess at this point I want to say that, the very fact that 1,500 people on this forum has viewed this thread, and so far not a single person has posted any success stories with their own life-science degrees. Quite telling, isn't it?

Not really

Most of us are not going to get a masters or PhD to go into that field. That's why we're on this board, we're serious about medicine, not necessarily research.

Nearly every tech I know has a masters in a related field. Many of them are very happy with what they're doing and have no desire to move anywhere else. We're certainly not a representative group.

In fact, it might be easier to hold a job as a master because the hospital/research facility does not have to worry about moving you to faculty or professorial position. So they don't really need to worry about upping your pay.

 

[imer]

...

 

[redbuck]

I guess at this point I want to say that, the very fact that 1,500 people on this forum has viewed this thread, and so far not a single person has posted any success stories with their own life-science degrees. Quite telling, isn't it?

No doubt a majority of you pre-meds are life science majors, and not a single person so far can post their own personal success? Could it be that, there is indeed no jobs/careers for life science grads?

I'm an Anatomy grad student, and I make $45/hour teaching at a CC. But what do I know, I don't even have my Master's yet.

 

[morning]

My husband has a job. Assistant professor.
He had this job for a little over 2 years now and he's turning 30 this year. He is very very lucky.
However, he turned down TWO six figure + jobs in cities like boston, and houston, after getting his phD, for an assistant professor job in the south. In a place neither of us like at all, nor does our families.

More than anything, I feel lied to, and our agreement violated. We agreed to find a good place to live, and maybe close to our families. I would do the same by applying for med schools at certain locations and reapply again if I didn't get into those particular schools.

I made it clear that I do not want to deal with a lot of this academia stuff. My whole family are in the profession of teaching, secondary schools and universities. Half of my aunts have PhDs and they all work on wall street now because academia just doesn't pay the mortgage.

I feel like being dragged into an academic tar pit he promised to not drag me into.

I'm sorry about your situation. This is how this whole thing feels from a wife's perspective.
I know my husband is already very lucky to have such a job at such a young age, and it pays decent, but factors such a distance/location, immobility places enormous strains as well.

For medicine, everything is for a few years. A few years later you are mobile again, but a professor...

You might be looking for the PsyD forum...

 

[btricycle]

you said it yourself. You had little clinical experience (and other ECs) and couldn't interview well. How can interviewers get anything out of you if they're talking to a wall? This applies to JOBS and med schools as well. Congrats on your PhD and acceptance, but your experience is just that, YOUR experience.

 

[btricycle]

I'm an Anatomy grad student, and I make $45/hour teaching at a CC. But what do I know, I don't even have my Master's yet.

That SOUNDS good but when you consider how many hours you actually work, its not all that appealing. 10 hours a week=$450 per week x 14 weeks = 6 grand a semester. Its not like you're pulling a full time job...

 

[gte770m]

This isn't true.

My older brother has a PhD in Chem E and these guys are VERY employable, and making bank. Even with just a masters. Admittedly, they kill themselves getting through engineering so they deserve it.

It's like anything else, if you're a toad in the way you work or package yourself then you're going to have to get use to living in the mud. It's always about contributions you've made and your ability to convince others of delivering in the future. What your diploma says is irrelevent if you don't deliver - and this is almost always the case with underachievers - it's a competition all the way to the end.

Well that's my n=1...

I have to second that. I went to grad school for biomedical engineering and undergrad for mechanical engineering, and I don't think I have ever met any PhD's or MS's having trouble finding good jobs. There are plenty of positions unless you are locked in on getting a tenure-tracked faculty position. The pay is pretty nice when you go into industry. I don't know what it is like in basic sciences or in other engineering fields outside of mech and biomed (I do hear it's pretty tough for aerospace engineers), there is a high demand for engineers and not enough engineering graduates to fill them. Granted I was in programs ranked in top-5 or top-10, but I would imagine this is true in most other programs as well.

And if you do get a tenure-track position, you work your butt off for the first few years, but afterwards, you're pretty much set for life. These positions pay well, you effectively don't have to deal with an annoying, unreasonable boss, get paid sabbatical every few years, etc. The benefits are just unparalleled. I mean where else would you get paid that much and get that kind of benefit to study what you like to study???

Lastly, you generally need a graduate degree to really advance your career in engineering R&D, and I imagine if one is going into graduate school, that is something on his mind. Even just a BS in engineering will make one very employable, but a graduate degree will give even more options and advantages.

 

[redbuck]

That SOUNDS good but when you consider how many hours you actually work, its not all that appealing. 10 hours a week=$450 per week x 14 weeks = 6 grand a semester. Its not like you're pulling a full time job...

Nor do I want it to be a full-time job. As I said, I am still working on my Master's. I only spend about 1 hour/week out of the classroom for grading, answering e-mails, etc., so I could easily work a 40 hour teaching schedule if not for classes of my own. Plenty of community colleges and nursing schools in this country of ours, but I doubt the OP has any interest in those types of lowly institutions.

 

[bamtuba]

The degree is only as good as what the student is willing to put into the experience. And even then success is never guaranteed. In ANY field.

This is not an experience limited to nor defined by research.

 

[keepworking10]

Hello,

I am 32 years old, finished a Ph.D in physiology specializing in cellular apoptosis from Baylor College of Medicine, and has now been working as a post doc for 3 years. I have always wanted to go into medicine, I had undergrad GPA of 3.5, MCAT of 31, but my ECs have always been lacking clinical experience since I was always bogged down in doing research in my undergrad years in which I had 3 publications.

I applied for 1 cycle after undergrad, got waitlisted, then went to do my masters, applied again after masters, again got waitlisted. Finally I was convinced by my PI to do a Ph.D in which I could have a "fruitful research career that is high-paying and rewarding." Since I had a good experience with my masters, I committed to doing a Ph.D, thinking that if I become a MD afterwards, this Ph.D will help me get into a specialist field in medicine.

So, here I am, finally got an acceptance to a MD program 3 years after Ph.D in which I spent doing post-doc. It took me 5 application cycles to finally get an acceptance, which I still feel good about because I admit I am a very poor public speaker and suck at interviewing.

However, I would like to take this opportunity to *enlighten* everyone on this forum to never even consider graduate studies because there are simply no decent jobs *at all*! Every one of my peers in the Ph.D program is stuck in a post-doc jobs paying no more than 35,000$ year (many make less than that) and is only on a 1-2 year contract with little to no benefits. My wife left me because of such lack of job security (I moved to 3 cities in 3 years) as well as the low-pay that is impossible to support a family in such large cities. As of now there are about 500-700 qualified post-docs for a faculty-position in the academia or a scientist-position in the bio-tech industry. The competition is cut throat, and the chances are that unless you published 30-40 papers in journals including Nature Medicine, Science, PNAS, you will be spending the rest of your life moving from city to city like a migrant working low-pay jobs and never be able to retire. In all 3 labs I have been in plus my Ph.D lab, all the post-docs were in their 40s-50s, with decades of experience, strong publication record, teaching experience under their belt, making around 40,000$ a year. The day I met them, they convey their sense of desperation, hopelessness, and regret to me.

As for just a masters degree? You can forget about wasting 2 years + $60,000 getting this piece of paper that is better suited to be used as toilet paper. Counting all my friends, peers, and students who have just got a masters, not ONE of them is working in their field. All of them changed careers due to frustration and difficulty in landing a position in the industry.

So, PLEASE! Take my advice, learn from my mistake, do NOT go to graduate school! Gain significant work experience during your undergrad, so you are at least employable at some lowly-technician position after you graduate and waiting to get into medicine. You must think of getting an acceptance to medicine as if your life DEPENDED on it, because really, there is no other future/careers out there for your life science degree.

I feel bad for you that you didn't know how the system worked when you started college. I already knew while I was in high school. My freshman year three our of four of my science professors were up for tenure review. Two of them got and two did not. They ALL were in their late 30s or early 40s. One of them got it was denied tenure at two universities prior. Eventually a lot of those that do not get tenured at a research institution go onto teach at a small liberal arts college.

The science field is a "fit" scheme for getting a job. There are hundreds of people that apply for the same job and only a few, if any, meet the requirements for the position. The field of life sciences is so f'd up right now. There are thousands of smart people that have the ability to learn what they need to do, but training is looked at as a sin in the life sciences.

 

[keepworking10]

I guess at this point I want to say that, the very fact that 1,500 people on this forum has viewed this thread, and so far not a single person has posted any success stories with their own life-science degrees. Quite telling, isn't it?

No doubt a majority of you pre-meds are life science majors, and not a single person so far can post their own personal success? Could it be that, there is indeed no jobs/careers for life science grads?

I have a B.S. in biology and computer science. One of the businesses I run is health information related, another an ad agency, and a couple of other businesses.

I will NEVER use my biology degree, NEVER. A biology degree really is USELESS when looking at the big picture.

 

[keepworking10]

Nor do I want it to be a full-time job. As I said, I am still working on my Master's. I only spend about 1 hour/week out of the classroom for grading, answering e-mails, etc., so I could easily work a 40 hour teaching schedule if not for classes of my own. Plenty of community colleges and nursing schools in this country of ours, but I doubt the OP has any interest in those types of lowly institutions.

Your goal in life after you get a master's degree in such and such field is to teach anatomy classes for nursing students? Not exactly high reaching, is it.

 

[Ischemic]

I personally think that you should never go into Bio/Chem/Physics/etc grad school as a second or backup plan UNLESS you LOVE and are willing to do bench research for a long time. It's a horrible idea to go into grad school to "improve" your app, it's just not efficient wrt to time and money.

 

[austinap]

First of all, in the 8 publications under my name, I was first author in 3 of them. Of those 3 publications, one was in PNAS and other 2 was in circulation research. Of the other 5 where I was co-author, one was in the British journal Lancet.


Second of all, if you had read my earlier posts where I gave links to numerous articles about life as a post-doc, you would understand that OVERALL, industry and academia scientist positions far outnumber the number of post-docs. As a conservative estimate, there are at least TWICE more post-docs than combined positions in academia and industry. So, by logic, wouldn't those post-docs who have not secured such jobs keep on working as post-docs until they are in their 40s or 50s?? Read that article "perpetual post-docs." Also, read "Do we really need more scientists?"

Third of all, I bet you don't have a Ph.D yourself. You speak on behalf of your observations of your lab, which is one out of tens of thousands in USA. I have actually gotten a Ph.D from a leading research center and I speak from EXPERIENCE, rather than observation, that most, if not all, of my graduating classes have not found anything other than post-docs.

I do have a PhD (from a top institution!), and I still think it's insane to do 3 post-docs. After two postdocs, your chances at getting a good academic or industrial job go down steeply. After three, they're almost non-existent. As someone who claims to have spent that much time in academic labs, I'm surprised you haven't noticed that trend. Also, did you do all of your postdocs in similar fields? Because that is a sure way to make yourself unemployable. The successful scientists I know do one postdoc, and they do it in a lab significantly different from their graduate lab.

Also, no offense, but three first-author pubs from grad school + 3 postdocs is somewhat less than impressive. That means that for at least one of your experiences, you didn't publish first author at all.

I'm not saying that academics are peachy, and I'm not denying that people with PhDs can be unemployable sometimes, but if you're careful, you will be. Honestly, it sounds like you did it for the wrong reasons, and didn't think long term about how this path was really going to play into your future.

 

[austinap]

I guess at this point I want to say that, the very fact that 1,500 people on this forum has viewed this thread, and so far not a single person has posted any success stories with their own life-science degrees. Quite telling, isn't it?

No doubt a majority of you pre-meds are life science majors, and not a single person so far can post their own personal success? Could it be that, there is indeed no jobs/careers for life science grads?

No, that's not surprising at all. This is a premed forum, and the vast majority of people posting here are either planning on going to med school or already are. By definition, they can't be successful scientists by the standards you're using. Pure, complete, unadulterated selection bias.

I gave a number of success stories for people I personally know but would never come to this site, because, well, they're not interested in medical school. Of course you're going to discount those. I personally was offered a well paying job (unsolicited, even!) during grad school which I turned down in favor of finishing my degree and going to med school.

 

[murfettie]

http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191/

Interesting article to consider.....

 

[thechenster]

this topic is probably the most depressing thing I've read on SDN

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I love how people are saying that postdocs make 40-50K and then bring up Harvard salaries. One of the most competitive grad programs one can ever go into. Also if you are pre-med and didn't make it in the first time either do more clinical experience, research experience, Talk to the dean or go to grad. The key about going to gradschool is that you have to be enrolled in the grad program of the Medschool in question. For UTMemphis you have a incredibly high chance of being in Medschool if you do a Pharmacology Masters. Also make sure that no score on your MCAT is below an 8.


Otherwise just going to gradschool is a horrible Idea. Do a postbac with a bunch of Ecology classes and watch your GPA rise.

 

[NFkappaB]

http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191/

Interesting article to consider.....

That article could not have summed it up better.

For every 500 Ph.Ds there is one faculty position and for every 300 Ph.Ds there is a industry scientist position. If you think gaining an allopathic acceptance is hard, think about being a Ph.D!

Also, living in Los Angelos, Houston, New York making 35,000$ a year = no savings whatsoever = work until you die, a lonely one at that too.

 

[foofish]

I love how people are saying that postdocs make 40-50K and then bring up Harvard salaries. One of the most competitive grad programs one can ever go into. Also if you are pre-med and didn't make it in the first time either do more clinical experience, research experience, Talk to the dean or go to grad. The key about going to gradschool is that you have to be enrolled in the grad program of the Medschool in question. For UTMemphis you have a incredibly high chance of being in Medschool if you do a Pharmacology Masters. Also make sure that no score on your MCAT is below an 8.

I was just quoting the stats for the lab I worked in, I wasn't aware I was supposed to lie or make up figures. My main point was that I was working as a research assistant with a non-science BA making more than the OP claimed was possible as a postdoc. I just did a 2-second search for the postdoc salary figures for Tufts and UMass, and they also average out around 40K range plus benefits. Maybe it's a geographic difference, but the point still stands that it's not true that all postdocs in the US make 30-35K without benefits for life.

 

[NFkappaB]

I was just quoting the stats for the lab I worked in, I wasn't aware I was supposed to lie or make up figures. My main point was that I was working as a research assistant with a non-science BA making more than the OP claimed was possible as a postdoc. I just did a 2-second search for the postdoc salary figures for Tufts and UMass, and they also average out around 40K range plus benefits. Maybe it's a geographic difference, but the point still stands that it's not true that all postdocs in the US make 30-35K without benefits for life.

Even if you are making 40-45K, you must understand that there are often "no raises" as you jump from post-doc to post-doc as many of the salary is limited/set by the grant funding.

You must also consider job stability/security. Even if you are making 50K as a post-doc (upper 10%), would you feel comfortable relocating every 2-3 years from coast to coast? If you are single, good luck finding a husband/wife that will drop their job/career to move with you for your meager salary every 2 or so years.

As a matter of fact, I know a female post-doc who committed suicide. She was 35, working 60 hours a week in her postdoc making 40,000$ a year. Faced with no prospect of finding a permanent position, lack of love life and future marriage/family, her mid-life crisis depression drove her to overdose resulting in death.

 

[BerlinDude]

I guess at this point I want to say that, the very fact that 1,500 people on this forum has viewed this thread, and so far not a single person has posted any success stories with their own life-science degrees. Quite telling, isn't it?

No doubt a majority of you pre-meds are life science majors, and not a single person so far can post their own personal success? Could it be that, there is indeed no jobs/careers for life science grads?

You are on a forum for pre-meds. Most people here don't have a PhD. Those that do are applying to medical school, presumably because they are in the same situation as you.

That said, I pretty much agree with everything you say. Scientists are treated like garbage in America, and then people wonder why we are losing our science lead.

 

[Perrotfish]

http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191/

Interesting article to consider.....

Great article. BTW may parts of this is also very applicable to residency: never believe it when someone who is using you for cheap labor tells you they're doing it for the greater good. Though of course at least in residency you do actually get a job when you're done.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I was just quoting the stats for the lab I worked in, I wasn't aware I was supposed to lie or make up figures. My main point was that I was working as a research assistant with a non-science BA making more than the OP claimed was possible as a postdoc. I just did a 2-second search for the postdoc salary figures for Tufts and UMass, and they also average out around 40K range plus benefits. Maybe it's a geographic difference, but the point still stands that it's not true that all postdocs in the US make 30-35K without benefits for life.

They make 30K in many Tier1 universities and who said all? Its just a growing majority. Also 40k after 4-6 years of work working about 60-65 hours a week isn't something to really brag about. The minimum salary for Tufts (a very good school) is $37996. Most people finish their PhDs in the sciences in 5 years and you have to be pretty good to land a Tufts postdoc position and even then you will be making at most 50k working many years before you get a permanent job.

http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.or...ues/articles/2006_02_10/science.opms.r0600001

Sure they get health insurance and dental...which is basically it. So if you are really brilliant but have a crappy adviser your PhD can easily be 6 years. So it takes an avg of 8 years filled with blood, sweat and tears after College to hopefully make 60-80k in a Assistant professorship and this is for the cream of the crop bio-grad students.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

You're missng the point. anyone with an BS in ChemE is extremely employable for amazing salaries. The PhD/masters, though, doesn't add much to that. You just get the same amazing salary that you would have gotten with the undergrad degree, or at least not enough of a boost to justify the years and stress you pour into it.

I'll agree with you on the PhD part. Engineering fields are all pretty broad and to specialize in such a small section with a PhD probably isn't good for employment opportunities. The masters though I'm not so sure about. There's a lot that you can learn from getting your masters that you just wouldn't be able to pick up as quickly, if at all, on the job. If you look at the courses for a BS in electrical engineering for example, then the courses for the Masters, you'll see that the large majority of the courses for the BS are pretty much there to build a foundation for the courses in the Masters curriculum, which happen to be the courses that teach you things the industry actually uses. Plus, there's a pretty sizable gap between the starting salaries for a BS in engineering as opposed to an MS in engineering (not so much for MS vs PhD like you pointed out). On top of that a lot of higher end job listings (senior engineer and above) have a masters degree listed as a requirement.

 

[foofish]

They make 30K in many Tier1 universities and who said all? Its just a growing majority. Also 40k after 4-6 years of work working about 50-60 hours a week isn't something to really brag about. The minimum salary for Tufts (a very good school) is $37996. Most people finish their PhDs in the sciences in 5 years and you have to be pretty good to land a Tufts postdoc position and even then you will be making at most 50k working many years before you get a permant job.

http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.or...ues/articles/2006_02_10/science.opms.r0600001

Right, but you're proving my point. It was the OP early in the thread who had said that all postdocs can only hope to make 30-35K without benefits for the rest of their lives. Perhaps you missed that. All I was originally saying was that was not true, and you yourself have also provided similar evidence. That was all I was saying. In terms of your post I was responding to your suggestion that the Harvard quotes were unique and high...but since there are other universities that pay similar salaries I'd argue the Harvard numbers are not, in fact, unique and outlandish. Yes, maybe you need to be good at what you do to get a spot at one of those universities, but perhaps that's pointing to the greater problem as other posters have suggested...if you're really trapped in doing 3+ postdocs and not making much headway in publications, the limiting factor might not be the system but rather that the person isn't the right fit for the system, and it was a wise choice for the OP to change career paths. And OP, I don't say that to be mean, just that it sounds the research track wasn't the best fit for your interests and strengths (just like it wouldn't have been the right fit for me and would have been a disaster if I had tried for a basic science PhD!).

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

PhD in Engineering will most likely hurt you unless you want to become a professor.

 

[NFkappaB]

Right, but you're proving my point. It was the OP early in the thread who had said that all postdocs can only hope to make 30-35K without benefits for the rest of their lives. Perhaps you missed that. All I was originally saying was that was not true, and you yourself have also provided similar evidence. That was all I was saying. In terms of your post I was responding to your suggestion that the Harvard quotes were unique and high...but since there are other universities that pay similar salaries I'd argue the Harvard numbers are not, in fact, unique and outlandish. Yes, maybe you need to be good at what you do to get a spot at one of those universities, but perhaps that's pointing to the greater problem as other posters have suggested...if you're really trapped in doing 3+ postdocs and not making much headway in publications, the limiting factor might not be the system but rather that the person isn't the right fit for the system, and it was a wise choice for the OP to change career paths. And OP, I don't say that to be mean, just that it sounds the research track wasn't the best fit for your interests and strengths (just like it wouldn't have been the right fit for me and would have been a disaster if I had tried for a basic science PhD!).

Foofish, I don't want to sound rude...

but, are you BLIND?

The point that I emphasized repeatly over and over is that there are much more Ph.Ds produced than there are actual career positions such as Faculty or Industry. This is backed up by numerous articles and papers that I and others have presented.

So out of 10 talented post-docs, one will be lucky to find such position, but what about the other 9? Are you suggesting that they are somehow not cut out for science or even incompetent?

I take great offence of you claiming that I'm not fit for research. If you had read any of my posts, you'd know that I published 8 papers, most of them in high-impact journals (PNAS, Lancet, Circulation Research, Journal of Medical Micro). I was accepted in one of the TOP program in the nationa for cardiac research based on my outstanding performance and publication during my undergrad and master years.

Furthermore, I repeatly emphasized that none of my peers got anything other than post-docs either.

Get your facts straight before you offend someone.

 

[foofish]

So out of 10 talented post-docs, one will be lucky to find such position, but what about the other 9? Are you suggesting that they are somehow not cut out for science or even incompetent?

I take great offence of you claiming that I'm not fit for research. If you had read any of my posts, you'd know that I published 8 papers, most of them in high-impact journals (PNAS, Lancet, Circulation Research, Journal of Medical Micro). I was accepted in one of the TOP program in the nationa for cardiac research based on my outstanding performance and publication during my undergrad and master years.

Furthermore, I repeatly emphasized that none of my peers got anything other than post-docs either.

Get your facts straight before you offend someone.

First off, you're contradicting yourself, again, and even within the same post. If 1 out of 9 postdocs gets a position that is inherently incompatible with the claim that NONE of your peers got any positions. The two statements cannot be simultaneously true. Maybe it's a problem with your program, but if you're attending such a prestigious program as you state than I can't imaging it's actually true that it's graduates have an impossible time finding work afterwards...particularly as funding and career success is usually the basis of such prestige.

I was just responding to what you yourself have been saying, that you've been struggling to find more than a postdoc position and have only 3 first-author publications despite a PhD and multiple postdoc positions...not to mention that you wanted to be in medicine and not in research in the first place. And yes, some of those are great journals (I'm published in 2 of those myself), so congratulations. I'm sorry to offend you and yes, perhaps I went too far and for that I apologize. But don't think I deserved the overreaction and your offensive behavior in return, particularly since I think I've been the only one posting in this thread that has been at all sympathetic to your situation and multiple other posters have said the same thing. You read some malicious intent that was never there in the first place. Perhaps I should have been clearer or, apparently, not tried to be supportive, but I think you also overreacted.

 

[NFkappaB]

First off, you're contradicting yourself, again, and even within the same post. If 1 out of 9 postdocs gets a position that is inherently incompatible with the claim that NONE of your peers got any positions. The two statements cannot be simultaneously true. Maybe it's a problem with your program, but if you're attending such a prestigious program as you state than I can't imaging it's actually true that it's graduates have an impossible time finding work afterwards...particularly as funding and career success is usually the basis of such prestige.

I was just responding to what you yourself have been saying, that you've been struggling to find more than a postdoc position and have only 3 first-author publications despite a PhD and multiple postdoc positions. I'm sorry to offend you and yes, perhaps I went too far and for that I apologize. But don't think I deserved the overreaction and your offensive behavior in return, particularly since I think I've been the only one posting in this thread that has been at all sympathetic to your situation and multiple other posters have said the same thing.

That 1 in 10 statement was just an analogy when you claimed that I was somehow not cut out for research. My point was vast majority of talented Ph.Ds could not land a career position because there are simply none available, not because they are incompetent. The actual figure I originally stated, which is backed by the articles I presented, is more like 300-500 Ph.Ds for a faculty or industry scientist position.

The prestige of a program is more based on funding/grant/nobel-winning record of the faculty. Almost all top Ph.D programs in the nation only boast about how their graduates secure adequate post-doc positions, no more, no less.

Unsuprisingly, all my peers, who are now 3 years out of Ph.D program, are still all in post-doc.

 

[foofish]

That 1 in 10 statement was just an analogy when you claimed that I was somehow not cut out for research. My point was vast majority of talented Ph.Ds could not land a career position because there are simply none available, not because they are incompetent. The actual figure I originally stated, which is backed by the articles I presented, is more like 300-500 Ph.Ds for a faculty or industry scientist position.

The prestige of a program is more based on funding/grant/nobel-winning record of the faculty. Almost all top Ph.D programs in the nation only boast about how their graduates secure adequate post-doc positions, no more, no less.

Unsuprisingly, all my peers, who are now 3 years out of Ph.D program, are still all in post-doc.

Well, if you actually had read what I wrote instead of prematurely flying off the handle, you'd have noticed I had said it seemed like it wasn't the BEST fit for your INTERESTS and strengths, which is a VERY different thing from saying you're not cut out for research at all (I had said that *I* was the one who was not at all a good fit for research). Your entire original post was telling people not to go to grad school, saying it had made you unhappy and your real dream was to be a physician, which I think any rational person would interpret as you not loving life as a PhD/postdoc, i.e. it not being the best fit for your interests and career goals. If a PhD research track was truly the BEST fit, you would have had no desire to go to medical school then or now...you would be continuing to fight it out and be that 1 out of 10 who makes it work regardless of the bleak prospects you feel you face.

There's also no way you can convince me that a program would still be considered prestigious by the broader community (or, in the very least, prospective PhD students) if it's graduates were incapable of securing funding or establishing a lab after competing that program *despite* a publication record in top journals. Even the worst programs occasionally retain their own graduates, which make them more successful than you're claiming of your own program. So I'm guessing that your school and postdoc program graduates are more successful than you'd have us believe.

Thanks for your ungracious response to my apology and lack of an apology in return, by the way.

 

[AlexB]

meh, 30K or 45K, what's the difference. My 20 year old roommate makes 65K as a computer programmer, with 1 year of experience.

 

[NFkappaB]

Well, if you actually had read what I wrote instead of prematurely flying off the handle, you'd have noticed I had said it seemed like it wasn't the BEST fit for your INTERESTS and strengths, which is a VERY different thing from saying you're not cut out for research at all (I had said that *I* was the one who was not at all a good fit for research). Your entire original post was telling people not to go to grad school and saying it had made you unhappy, which I think any rational person would interpret as you not loving life as a PhD/postdoc, i.e. it not being the best fit for your interests and career goals. If a PhD research track was truly the BEST fit, you would have had no desire to go to medical school then or now...you would be continuing to fight it out and be that 1 out of 10 who makes it work regardless of the bleak prospects you feel you face.

Thanks for your ungracious response to my apology and lack of an apology in return, by the way.

Allright, there is a major misunderstanding between us.

1) You are saying I was not a "best fit," my entire point was that there are many highly qualified *best fit* candidates out there, and unfortunately, the positions to accomodate all those *best fit* candidates are simply not there. Therefore, just because a person is not matched into such position doesn't mean that they are not best fit.

2) My original post was about how I loved research and was fine to delay my med school entrance to pursue a masters and then a Ph.D. I specifically said, I was very satisfied with my masters degree in which I actually patented a new protein in the autophagy pathway. What I wrote that I hated about was the low-pay that is impossible to raise a family and to have any savings. I bolded the line that my wife (of 6 years) left me because I had to move around all the time without any job security and did not make enough money to support a family that she would like to have. I reasonably felt very humiliated that people with such talent and education can be in this kind of financial situation similiar to fast-food workers.

3) Apologize? Are we what, in 2nd grade? If you gone through the rigours of any Ph.D or post-doc program, you would know the BS you have to put up with all the time to get the data for publication. If I had to describe a typical post-doc life in one word, it is *unfair*.

 

[AlexB]

As it has been with the biotech revolution of the last decade, there's been no barrier to entry into graduate school. For many 20-something year olds that aren't sure what they're doing in their life, I think they simply opt for what's easiest and already set up for them to do; IE just send in an application to grad school. They only start to reconsider when they're in too deep and the academia jaws are wrapped around them.

You know, in a way, this "natural selection" of the fittest PhD's could have some positive results in the future. I think there's going to be an implosion of the post doc workforce in the next few years, and the only people that are going to go into academic research are going to be the crazy ones.

 

[foofish]

3) Apologize? Are we what, in 2nd grade? If you gone through the rigours of any Ph.D or post-doc program, you would know the BS you have to put up with all the time to get the data for publication. If I had to describe a typical post-doc life in one word, it is *unfair*.

That attitude is going to go a long way for you in medical school, good luck with that. Particularly when you get to the point of medical school where whether you pass or fail a course depends on evaluations and not exams. I used to wonder why in clerkship orientation they always felt compelled to remind us to be respectful to nurses, staff, and other students, but it's becoming less of a mystery.

You have at least 7 more years of feeling disrespected ahead of you, so you're going to need to get a handle on your resentment and issues sooner rather than later. No one forced you to go to graduate school, no one forced you to get a PhD, no one forced you to make any of the choices you've made. As others here have said, the idea that academic science is competitive and not a high-income profession is common knowledge and something most people figure out by college, and it's unfortunate you didn't get that message or do enough legwork before applying and going through with it. But you have had many opportunities before now (before the masters, after the masters, after the PhD, after each postdoc) to get out. You didn't. So own up to your own decisions, grow up and move on.

 

[BerlinDude]

That attitude is going to go a long way for you in medical school, good luck with that. I used to wonder why in clerkship orientation they always felt compelled to remind us to be respectful to nurses, staff, and other students, but it's becoming less of a mystery.

You have at least 7 more years of feeling disrespected ahead of you, so you're going to need to get a handle on your resentment and issues sooner rather than later. No one forced you to go to graduate school, no one forced you to get a PhD, no one forced you to make any of the choices you've made. As others here have said, the idea that academic science is competitive and not a high-income profession is common knowledge and something most people figure out by college, and it's unfortunate you didn't get that message or do enough legwork before applying and going through with it. But you have had many opportunities before now (before the masters, after the masters, after the PhD, after each postdoc) to get out. You didn't. So own up to your own decisions, grow up and move on.

foofish, as most people have figured, you either don't know or don't want to know what you are talking about. You are making comments for no reason than to get a response. There is a word for that - troll.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

That attitude is going to go a long way for you in medical school, good luck with that. Particularly when you get to the point of medical school where whether you pass or fail a course depends on evaluations and not exams. I used to wonder why in clerkship orientation they always felt compelled to remind us to be respectful to nurses, staff, and other students, but it's becoming less of a mystery.

You have at least 7 more years of feeling disrespected ahead of you, so you're going to need to get a handle on your resentment and issues sooner rather than later. No one forced you to go to graduate school, no one forced you to get a PhD, no one forced you to make any of the choices you've made. As others here have said, the idea that academic science is competitive and not a high-income profession is common knowledge and something most people figure out by college, and it's unfortunate you didn't get that message or do enough legwork before applying and going through with it. But you have had many opportunities before now (before the masters, after the masters, after the PhD, after each postdoc) to get out. You didn't. So own up to your own decisions, grow up and move on.

Dude what are you talking about this thread is to warn pre-meds not to just go to gradschool as an alternative if they don't get accepted the first time. You were arguing that gradschool was a good thing to go into(which it isn't). Also this argument applies to every medstudent and resident who constantly complains about their life. You are saying ridiculous things like if you were fit for research you would have been the 1 out of 10 who succeeds. This shows that you know nothing of career advancement in the realworld. Also the guy who you are arguing with has accomplished a lot you should be more respectful.

 

[murfettie]

story of those abandoned biological science:

my aunt used to be a biophysicist. got her phD in 1996-ish? did a post doc at Sloan Kettering.
took a few computer classes, she now works on IT for wall st banks at 200K a year.
she loved science, loved pursuing science, but she gotta think of her family, her kids.
sometimes I look at her journal articles about cell division online, and can't believe this is the same aunt who gets up at 6am to go to work in manhattan. it's like... science just died from her life. gone.

she was one of those Chinese grad students who came in 1990. honestly, in the end, science wasn't even good enough for us, the foreigners.

her husband didn't even finish his phd in physics, he abandoned it half-way with a masters and jumped to econ.
he works on wall st now, making loads and loads of cash.
(he didn't make up one of those complicated financial instruments though)
he really liked physics too, but hey, they got kids.

 

[CoolWhipp]

I appreciate the OP's sentiments. Thanks.