MWU-AZ vs. Other School + AEGD vs. Other school and NO AEGD

[Cold Front]

If the schools would cost 700k+, I wouldn't have become a pre-dent in the first place. I would have pursued a different career path. If someone had come to me in high school and told me more about the realities of dentistry (saturation, corps, declining reimbursements etc.), I would have probably given dentistry a second thought.

Most high schoolers would not listen, not you, but most. They see 55+ yr old dentists who own their own practices and driving nice cars and nice homes. It’s more of what they see or read, than hear from the world. They selectively see the public’s perception of dentists - as money grabbers. They google “top 10 high paying jobs in America” - and usually 2-3 areas of dentistry is ranked on that list on a highly respected publications. The parents also reinforce those false perceptions, and push their kids to pursue dentistry if they could. The high schoolers don’t see the under 55 yr old dentists struggles, or shadow at an office long enough and ask the dentist the big challenges in dentistry for young doctors. They are oblivious to the underlying issues for new grads because the odds of a high schooler meeting a new grad is almost next to 0. That’s where these forums come in, but high schoolers don’t make it to SDN until they become a pre-dent, and even if they read discussions about the student loans crisis and stagnant income for associates - it will take them time to comprehend and put the pieces together, and could take as long as a year or 2 for them to understand those topics - just read the pre-dental forums.

So the theory of warning high schoolers is just a dead end, not because there is no platform to do it, but because the majority of teens at that age have other priorities in that brief period of life - even if they want to pursue a professional career at the same time. Their eyes are opening to the world and their brain is still developing - so all those cool things have no time to discuss serious topics, let alone the decline of the dental profession. I’m not implying high schoolers are not smart people, but life comes at them very fast in those critical years to make big decisions that need a lot of time and research - specially in the absence of a strong adult mentor/parent.

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[ToothJockey]

Most high schoolers would not listen, not you, but most. They see 55+ yr old dentists who own their own practices and driving nice cars and nice homes. It’s more of what they see or read, than hear from the world. They selectively see the public’s perception of dentists - as money grabbers. They google “top 10 high paying jobs in America” - and usually 2-3 areas of dentistry is ranked on that list on a highly respected publications. The parents also reinforce those false perceptions, and push their kids to pursue dentistry if they could. The high schoolers don’t see the under 55 yr old dentists struggles, or shadow at an office long enough and ask the dentist the big challenges in dentistry for young doctors. They are oblivious to the underlying issues for new grads because the odds of a high schooler meeting a new grad is almost next to 0. That’s where these forums come in, but high schoolers don’t make it to SDN until they become a pre-dent, and even if they read discussions about the student loans crisis and stagnant income for associates - it will take them time to comprehend and put the pieces together, and could take as long as a year or 2 for them to understand those topics - just read the pre-dental forums.

So the theory of warning high schoolers is just a dead end, not because there is no platform to do it, but because the majority of teens at that age have other priorities in that brief period of life - even if they want to pursue a professional career at the same time. Their eyes are opening to the world and their brain is still developing - so all those cool things have no time to discuss serious topics, let alone the decline of the dental profession. I’m not implying high schoolers are not smart people, but life comes at them very fast in those critical years to make big decisions that need a lot of time and research - specially in the absence of a strong adult mentor/parent.

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Yeah, high schoolers don't have a great sense of reality yet. If I could go back to HS, knowing what I know now, I would study harder and get better grades so I could go to college for free rather than paying 120k. That's 120k that can be used towards dental school.
I got major backlash for saying pre-dents should already start planning ahead, but I stand by my statement. Better to be proactive rather than reactive. If I had started planning for dental school back in HS, I would be 120k richer right now.

 

[2TH MVR]

It's so easy for a dental student or a dentist to say "I would have turned down acceptances from expensive schools blah blah" because y'all don't actually have to do it. It's much different when it's actually your balls on the line....

I get that you're ALL IN at this point, but just because you have a plan to be a dentist does not mean you're entitled to be a dentist. Not everybody that goes into the space program gets to walk on the moon or do an EVA. The reality is that the smartest, brightest, best stat dental students have their choices of Ivies and CHEAPER in-state DS. These are the students the schools want. The expensive DS such as Midwestern are going to gladly accept less than ideal candidates as long as you PAY them their ridiculous tuition. Dental school was once about the brightest students attending reasonably priced DS. Now .... the business of private dental schools is preying on the dreams of many predents of differing abilities.

Guess what? This isn't new to your generation. I'll agree ... it's worse, but definitely now new. I applied to DS in 1985. I was accepted to USC, Creighton, a couple of other programs and a nice, cheap midwest DS with only 65 students. I was a poor student back then. My parents could not help. I could care less about DS prestige or if I could specialize EASIER through a specific DS. Even back then .... USC and Creighton were ridiculously expensive. That's right. During my time. Without hesitation ... I chose the least expensive DS. I have ZERO regrets.

So. Don't put this on someone else. This is on you. The information is out there .... especially in this day and age. If the entry costs to become a dentist is too much .... might be time to choose a different career. Like medicine.

 

[ToothJockey]

So. Don't put this on someone else. This is on you. The information is out there .... especially in this day and age. If the entry costs to become a dentist is too much .... might be time to choose a different career. Like medicine.

As you said, no one is entitled to be a dentist. If an expensive school is the only one you get into, then you better be grateful you even got that acceptance.
What if you're OP and you only got into an expensive school? I know my answer, I take that acceptance with a big ass grin on my face. I won't be applying to schools as expensive as OP because my parents are not as rich as his...but you see the point.

What I don't get, so many posters on here saying they would only go in state, yet they applied to expensive private schools. I'm not following the logic here....why even apply to schools you 100% won't attend? ...unless.....

Just apply to schools in your budget, if you don't get in try next cycle...or don't. It's not rocket science.

 

[GoDental101]

If the schools would cost 700k+, I wouldn't have become a pre-dent in the first place. I would have pursued a different career path. If someone had come to me in high school and told me more about the realities of dentistry (saturation, corps, declining reimbursements etc.), I would have probably given dentistry a second thought.

My point is, stop people from becoming pre-dents in the first place. It is much harder to get someone off the path once they have already invested 3+ years in getting into dental school.



What was your backup plan? Apply to dental schools again next cycle or quit being a dentist altogether? Most of us don't have 4.0 and 26AA, that one acceptance might be the only one we ever get, we're not gonna take a gamble on trying again next year.

It's so easy for a dental student or a dentist to say "I would have turned down acceptances from expensive schools blah blah" because y'all don't actually have to do it. It's much different when it's actually your balls on the line....

Yeah, high schoolers don't have a great sense of reality yet. If I could go back to HS, knowing what I know now, I would study harder and get better grades so I could go to college for free rather than paying 120k. That's 120k that can be used towards dental school.
I got major backlash for saying pre-dents should already start planning ahead, but I stand by my statement. Better to be proactive rather than reactive. If I had started planning for dental school back in HS, I would be 120k richer right now.

The fact that you paid 120k for undergrad and now are willing to pay whatever the cost for dental school shows the root of the problem. You have to consider the consequences of choices. You are already 120k in debt so you feel you have no other choice than entering a high paying profession like being a dentist. At some point people have to consider education costs as sunk costs and move on to something else. This is the same way people get a million in debt to be an orthodontist. If you only get into the expensive 700k+ dental schools just consider your undergrad as a sunk cost and go into a pharmaceutical sales or dental sales or something that requires a degree but pays better than a biology teacher. You have more options than just being a biologist. Don’t just keep burying yourself in outrageous education expenses because you think the only option to pay everything off is dentistry.

 

[Cold Front]

As you said, no one is entitled to be a dentist. If an expensive school is the only one you get into, then you better be grateful you even got that acceptance.

There is a BIG difference between getting into a school, and getting into a $chool. Like 2TH MVR said, a lot of schools will happily accept you for their bottom line - regardless of your academic status (sub 3.0 GPA and low DAT scores). So nothing to be grateful for - for the student, but the other way round. If you don’t care where you get into at those uber expensive schools like MW, USC and et al, then you deserve the consequences of your decision - financially.


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[GoDental101]

The fact that people are getting taken advantage of by undergrad and dental schools alike really would stop if there was some sort of legislation that limited the amount of loans someone could take out for undergrad to 30k and dental school to 250k. If loans were not availible past that price then a lot of schools would either close down or be forced to lower tuition and then the few schools that keep high tuition would be limited to people who have outside help to pay for it. (Parents, military, scholarships, savings, etc)

 

[ToothJockey]

The fact that you paid 120k for undergrad and now are willing to pay whatever the cost for dental school shows the root of the problem. You have to consider the consequences of choices. You are already 120k in debt so you feel you have no other choice than entering a high paying profession like being a dentist. At some point people have to consider education costs as sunk costs and move on to something else. This is the same way people get a million in debt to be an orthodontist. If you only get into the expensive 700k+ dental schools just consider your undergrad as a sunk cost and go into a pharmaceutical sales or dental sales or something that requires a degree but pays better than a biology teacher. You have more options than just being a biologist. Don’t just keep burying yourself in outrageous education expenses because you think the only option to pay everything off is dentistry.

[/QUOTE]
I'm not 120k in debt, my parents paid for my entire undergrad, and they are helping me pay for dental school as well. They are nowhere near as rich as OP's parents, they can't afford 10k a month payments for a place like Midwestern AZ. That is why I am setting my dental school budget based on what I can afford, which seems to be a new concept on SDN.

There is a BIG difference between getting into a school, and getting into a $chool. Like 2TH MVR said, a lot of schools will happily accept you for their bottom line - regardless of your academic status (sub 3.0 GPA and low DAT scores). So nothing to be grateful for - for the student, but the other way round. If you don’t care where you get into at those uber expensive schools like MW, USC and et al, then you deserve the consequences of your decision - financially.


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The thing I don't get is, if a school like USC or MW is out of someones budget, why tf are these people applying there in the first place??? No one is putting a gun to their head, saying they gotta apply here. If you have good stats, and a low budget, then don't even apply to these schools. If you have bad stats, and a low budget, still don't apply to these schools. If you have bad stats and a high budget, then sure apply to these schools.

I would be happy for any acceptance I get, because I would have only have applied to schools in my budget that I could see myself attending. Why is this a crazy concept?

 

[GoDental101]

I'm not 120k in debt, my parents paid for my entire undergrad, and they are helping me pay for dental school as well. They are nowhere near as rich as OP's parents, they can't afford 10k a month payments for a place like Midwestern AZ. That is why I am setting my dental school budget based on what I can afford, which seems to be a new concept on SDN.



The thing I don't get is, if a school like USC or MW is out of someones budget, why tf are these people applying there in the first place??? No one is putting a gun to their head, saying they gotta apply here. If you have good stats, and a low budget, then don't even apply to these schools. If you have bad stats, and a low budget, still don't apply to these schools. If you have bad stats and a high budget, then sure apply to these schools.

I would be happy for any acceptance I get, because I would have only have applied to schools in my budget that I could see myself attending. Why is this a crazy concept?

The thing is there is no such thing as a low budget to most Predent students because federal loans are unlimited. So no one school is out of budget for anyone.

 

[Combine33]

To all of you on here trying to convince us pre-dents not to go the dental route, or to decline an acceptance to an expensive school, it's a useless effort, it's already too late. A lot of us are at the point of no return, we've spent countless nights in the library at 2 am studying for the next orgo exam. We will jump at any acceptance are we fortunate enough to get one.

If you actually want to make a difference, next time a high schooler comes up to you "Hey Dr. Tooth, I think I want to become a dentist, do you wanna be my mentor", just tell them straight up, dentistry is not what you think. Tell them the realities, tell them the debt. Tell them to pursue another career path. Stop them from becoming a pre-dent in the first place.

Woah no need to get defensive. This forum, like any forum, is for people to discuss their experiences and views. If you have you mind made up, why are you even on here in the first place? I love dentistry, and I'm grateful that I am a dentist, but reality must be accepted. GP is hard. Loans suck. Corporate sucks. Patients can make your day or ruin it. All we are trying to do is SHOW you a better way. Like I said, it doesnt matter where you go because when you're out of school, theres not much difference between someone who went to Penn and someone who went to A&M with 1/3 of the debt. Why pay an inflated price for the same product?

Now I get it, you're frustrated that you think me and others are telling you to not achieve your dream. NO, I'm not. All I ask is that if you do go to MW, you have to be accepting of your new financial reality and plan accordingly.

 

[ToothJockey]

The thing is there is no such thing as a budget to most Predent students because federal loans are unlimited. So no one school is out of budget for anyone.

It's their responsibility to set a budget, not the governments. Like 2th mvr said, you gotta own it. Resources are out there. Calculate your finances and set your budget.

I feel like you guys think I'm saying pre-dents should be irresponsible and go to the most expensive school, but that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, set a budget, only apply to schools within your budget, and if your only acceptance is the most expensive school that you applied to, then accept it. It should be fine because that school was in your budget anyways.

 

[GoDental101]

It's their responsibility to set a budget, not the governments. Like 2th mvr said, you gotta own it. Resources are out there. Calculate your finances and set your budget.

I feel like you guys think I'm saying pre-dents should be irresponsible and go to the most expensive school, but that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, set a budget, only apply to schools within your budget, and if your only acceptance is the most expensive school that you applied to, then accept it. It should be fine because that school was in your budget anyways.

I’m not thinking your saying they should be irresponsible, I’m trying to agree with you that in the position of going to a really expensive school or not going at all, most if not all will be irresponsible and go to the school no matter the cost. That shouldn’t happen however the way the system is set up there is no school that is truly out of budget because there is no limit to the amount of money the government will give for education.

 

[ToothJockey]

Woah no need to get defensive. This forum, like any forum, is for people to discuss their experiences and views. If you have you mind made up, why are you even on here in the first place? I love dentistry, and I'm grateful that I am a dentist, but reality must be accepted. GP is hard. Loans suck. Corporate sucks. Patients can make your day or ruin it. All we are trying to do is SHOW you a better way. Like I said, it doesnt matter where you go because when you're out of school, theres not much difference between someone who went to Penn and someone who went to A&M with 1/3 of the debt. Why pay an inflated price for the same product?

Now I get it, you're frustrated that you think me and others are telling you to not achieve your dream. NO, I'm not. All I ask is that if you do go to MW, you have to be accepting of your new financial reality and plan accordingly.

I agree, I'm sorry if I sounded hostile. It was not my intention.

I'm just giving my perspective as a pre-dent, and how I will be approaching the application/acceptance cycle, and how I feel majority of my peers will be too.

 

[ToothJockey]

I’m not thinking your saying they should be irresponsible, I’m trying to agree with you that out in the position of going to a really expensive school or not going at all most if not all will be irresponsible and go to the school no matter the cost because I’m reality the way the system is set up there is no school that is truly out of budget.

Yeah I agree if you have absolutely no parental help, then accepting a school like MW or USC if you already have undergrad loans too is straight up irresponsible. And yeah, there technically is no "budget" because the government doesn't cap loans, however as a responsible adult, pre-dents should know their limits. If your parents are loaded like OPs, then you can apply to schools like USC and MW, but if you're on your own with loans, try not to go over 400k.

 

[Combine33]

I agree, I'm sorry if I sounded hostile. It was not my intention.

I'm just giving my perspective as a pre-dent, and how I will be approaching the application/acceptance cycle, and how I feel majority of my peers will be too.

All good homie. A little about me: I'm a second generation American. My parents arent educated. I had the same mentality: any school that accepts me I'll run with it. I was accepted to MW! Oh my god! I'm gonna be the first person on both sides of my family to get a BS and become a doctor in AMERICA. At the time it didnt matter if it cost a zillion dollars because of the title, and money, and prestige. I'm so glad I had people in my life guiding me and I was lucky to get accepted to UTHSCSA pretty late, like in March or something like that. I understand the pressure. Its real. Its even real right now, going to specialize because I expect much more of myself now that I've matured.

 

[GoDental101]

Yeah I agree if you have absolutely no parental help, then accepting a school like MW or USC if you already have undergrad loans too is straight up irresponsible. And yeah, there technically is no "budget" because the government doesn't cap loans, however as a responsible adult, pre-dents should know their limits. If your parents are loaded like OPs, then you can apply to schools like USC and MW, but if you're on your own with loans, try not to go over 400k.

Pre-dents should know there limits but due to immaturity and ignorance, they don’t. That’s why I think the government needs to put a cap on the amount that people can take out for different education routes. Name one other loaning system that gives an unlimited supply of money to a 21 years olds desired investment.

 

[ToothJockey]

All good homie. A little about me: I'm a second generation American. My parents arent educated. I had the same mentality: any school that accepts me I'll run with it. I was accepted to MW! Oh my god! I'm gonna be the first person on both sides of my family to get a BS and become a doctor in AMERICA. At the time it didnt matter if it cost a zillion dollars because of the title, and money, and prestige. I'm so glad I had people in my life guiding me and I was lucky to get accepted to UTHSCSA pretty late, like in March or something like that. I understand the pressure. Its real. Its even real right now, going to specialize because I expect much more of myself now that I've matured.

Yeah it's tough to turn down an acceptance, especially when you've worked so hard. That's why I encourage pre-dents to know their limits when applying to dental schools. If you have no parental support, and no savings, its not a good idea to apply to MW or USC. Apply to IS schools, apply to OOS schools which give IS tuition after 1 year. Because if you find yourself with your only acceptance being to USC, it's gonna be sooo hard to turn it down.

 

[Cold Front]

The thing I don't get is, if a school like USC or MW is out of someones budget, why tf are these people applying there in the first place??? No one is putting a gun to their head, saying they gotta apply here. If you have good stats, and a low budget, then don't even apply to these schools. If you have bad stats, and a low budget, still don't apply to these schools. If you have bad stats and a high budget, then sure apply to these schools.

Same reason why some undergrads charge $65k a year for a degree in history or social studies and still fill their seats. There will always be a segment of applicants that will always apply (“the parents made me do it”, “it was always my DREAM at all cost”, and a host of other reasons). Hence, why we have $1.6T student loans/debt crisis in this country, and that number goes up $100B a year or 6% minimum. The government, schools and applicants are collectively the fuel to the fire. If one of the 3 stops participating in the bubble, the whole “high cost education” would come to a screeching halt in an instant.


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[ToothJockey]

Pre-dents should know there limits but due to immaturity and ignorance, they don’t. That’s why I think the government needs to put a cap on the amount that people can take out for different education routes. Name one other loaning system that gives an unlimited supply of money to a 21 years olds desired investment.

I think the reason the government hands out loans like candy is because dentists are so good at paying back those loans. Once more and more dentists start defaulting on these loans, the government might get a reality check.

The government, schools and applicants are collectively needed for the crisis to continue. If one of the 3 stops participating in the bubble, the whole “high cost education” would come to a screeching halt.

It's all a feedback loop. Government keeps giving loans, Applicants keep applying, schools keep raising costs. The loop will only break when applicants are unable to pay back their loans.

 

[Cold Front]

I think the reason the government hands out loans like candy is because dentists are so good at paying back those loans. Once more and more dentists start defaulting on these loans, the government might get a reality check.

Not true. Grad Plus loans have no ceiling and not exclusive to dental students, but to other professional students as well. In theory, any graduate program can charge $1M for tuition and fees, and the government will still pay.



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[ToothJockey]

Not true. Grad Plus loans have no ceiling and not exclusive to dental students, but to other professional students as well. In theory, any graduate program can charge $1M for tuition and fees, and the government will still pay.



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Yeah but what happens when the students can’t pay back the loans and file for bankruptcy? Whose loss is it then?


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[GoDental101]

Yeah but what happens when the students can’t pay back the loans and file for bankruptcy? Whose loss is it then?


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Student loans from the government are not forgiven in the case of bankruptcy. This just goes to show that even a predent that thinks they have done their research still doesn’t know the important details.

 

[schmoob]

Yeah but what happens when the students can’t pay back the loans and file for bankruptcy? Whose loss is it then?


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You need to read up on student loans. Filing for bankruptcy does not get rid of your federal student loans.

 

[Cold Front]

Yeah but what happens when the students can’t pay back the loans and file for bankruptcy? Whose loss is it then?


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Student loans are “too big to fail”. If you are familiar with that expression, you will know who will (ultimately) bail the students out if the default rates reach the tipping point.


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[deleted903013]

if the default rates reach the tipping point.

It's not an "if". It's a "when".

 

[ToothJockey]

Student loans are “too big to fail”. If you are familiar with that expression, you will know who will (ultimately) bail the students out if the default rates reach the tipping point.


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I’m actually not familiar. I haven’t had to take any loans so I’m not familiar with how the loan process works, my bad.

I meant what happens if students can’t pay the loans? Is there student loan insurance or something? How will the government get their money back?


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[deleted903013]

I meant what happens if students can’t pay the loans? Is there student loan insurance or something? How will the government get their money back?

You default which means your credit score goes down and your interest rate goes up. There's no way getting around paying your loans that I'm aware of. I'm sure many will die with thousands in student loans.

 

[Cold Front]

It's not an "if". It's a "when".

Absolutely.

We are discussing one big piece of the puzzle of many great crisis of this country.

I read earlier today that 1 in 3 Americans who will retire soon didn’t save for retirement. Social security and Medicare will both be insolvent in a decade. Cost of nursing homes will triple in a decade or so, and the majority who needs those services won’t be able to afford it. Due to cost, cremations are by far more popular than graveyards.

The average American will need $1M in long term care. It will make many people destitute and push them more towards Medicaid - and they will become a ward of the state. New York Medicaid ran out of funds couple of weeks ago couldn’t even reimburse providers who were accepting and seeing Medicaid patients.

People are getting married less and less every year (ehmm... student loans!) to the point where bridal businesses are filing bankruptcies, diamond suppliers are selling less and less diamonds to couples every year, the largest US milk supplier filed bankruptcy last month, and so on.

Yes, life is getting better in many ways for society, but it’s also becoming more difficult and bleek at the same time. You just can’t help but ponder - which side of the coin will many people you know, love and care about will end up in the long run.


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[ToothJockey]

You default which means your credit score goes down and your interest rate goes up. There's no way getting around paying your loans that I'm aware of. I'm sure many will die with thousands in student loans.

Now that's f'd up. Someone who already can't pay their loans has their interest rate go up and their credit score go down, meaning they will never be able to pay their loans.

Does the student in question have to pay his entire salary to the government? What if you simply don't earn enough to pay the monthly payment? I don't see how this is sustainable...

 

[GoDental101]

Now that's f'd up. Someone who already can't pay their loans has their interest rate go up and their credit score go down, meaning they will never be able to pay their loans.

Does the student in question have to pay his entire salary to the government? What if you simply don't earn enough to pay the monthly payment? I don't see how this is sustainable...

No there’s a payment plan called income based repayment. Basically you pay 15% of your income for 30 years and then you are taxed on the amount forgiven at the end of the 30 years.

 

[2TH MVR]

Absolutely.

We are discussing one big piece of the puzzle of many great crisis of this country.

I read earlier today that 1 in 3 Americans who will retire soon didn’t save for retirement. Social security and Medicare will both be insolvent in a decade. Cost of nursing homes will triple in a decade or so, and the majority who needs those services won’t be able to afford it. Due to cost, cremations are by far more popular than graveyards.

The average American will need $1M in long term care. It will make many people destitute and push them more towards Medicaid - and they will become a ward of the state. New York Medicaid ran out of funds couple of weeks ago couldn’t even reimburse providers who were accepting and seeing Medicaid patients.

People are getting married less and less every year (ehmm... student loans!) to the point where bridal businesses are filing bankruptcies, diamond suppliers are selling less and less diamonds to couples every year, the largest US milk supplier filed bankruptcy last month, and so on.

Yes, life is getting better in many ways for society, but it’s also becoming more difficult and bleek at the same time. You just can’t help but ponder - which side of the coin will many people you know, love and care about will end up in the long run.


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Did someone get coal in their stocking?

 

[ToothJockey]

No there’s a payment plan called income based repayment. Basically you pay 15% of your income for 30 years and then you are taxed on the amount forgiven at the end of the 30 years.

How will someone pay the amount forgiven at the end of the 30 years? Are you supposed to save up that much money? What if someone is unable to pay that amount?

 

[GoDental101]

How will someone pay the amount forgiven at the end of the 30 years? Are you supposed to save up that much money? What if someone is unable to pay that amount?

Exactly no one knows what will happen because no ones been on that payment plan for 30 years before. It’s all uncharted territory. That’s why, personally, I wouldn’t risk it. Go to a cheap school that you can pay off.

 

[ToothJockey]

Exactly no one knows what will happen because no ones been on that payment plan for 30 years before. It’s all uncharted territory. That’s why, personally, I wouldn’t risk it. Go to a cheap school that you can pay off.

Yeah if I have any loans from my D school education, I'll probably just pay it back the normal way. I feel bad for anyone going to school, dental or otherwise, a decade from now because there's no way salary will keep up with school costs in any profession.

No wonder kids these days want to be youtubers or instagrammers, they're smarter than us, they won't be paying the government a million bucks.

 

[deleted903013]

People are getting married less and less every year (ehmm... student loans!) to the point where bridal businesses are filing bankruptcies, diamond suppliers are selling less and less diamonds to couples every year, the largest US milk supplier filed bankruptcy last month, and so on.

The US has fertility rate is at an all time low since we started recording fertility rates in the early 1900's and the average age of people in the US settling down and getting married is continually increasing towards geriatric age. When I tell people my age I want to have at least 4 kids, they look horrified. 20 years ago, this would have been celebrated. There are large cultural problems on top of our economic decline.

 

[deleted903013]

No wonder kids these days want to be youtubers or instagrammers, they're smarter than us, they won't be paying the government a million bucks.

I will be heavily pushing my kids towards trade school. Little to no debt and an average starting salary higher than your average college student with a tangible skill set you can take anywhere.

 

[ToothJockey]

The US has fertility rates is at an all time low since we started recording fertility rates in the early 1900's and the average age of people in the US settling down and getting married is continually increasing towards geriatric age. When I tell people my age I want to have at least 4 kids, they look horrified. 20 years ago, this would have been celebrated. There are large cultural problems on top of our economic decline.

There's a lot more child free people now. Personally, I don't think I ever want to have kids.

The purpose of life used to be to get married have kids, but I feel like that's changing, atleast among my friends and I.

 

[GoDental101]

There's a lot more child free people now. Personally, I don't think I ever want to have kids.

The purpose of life used to be to get married have kids, but I feel like that's changing, atleast among my friends and I.

That is definitely the trend. Personally, I think it’s a pretty sad trend.

 

[ASPEN'S NIGHTMARE]

I went to A.T Still for my AEGD and I was very impressed by their program, coming from a "cheap" Texas school. What I didnt see were the students actively planning for the debt they have taken on. A lot of people dont really understand how underwater they are to become a GP. For less than what they paid to become a GP, if they went to a state school and an AEGD and specialist program, theyd owe less than 480k.

At MWU they made it pretty apparent that they focus as much on business and finances as they do clinical work. They care about money and did not try to hide that whatsoever. I thought it was refreshing/real. They wanted to make their students successful private practice owners rather than dental researchers like many other schools want. At my interview one example they brought up is how they teach students to lease certain equipment rather than own and write it off as a Section 179. I know from my own experience how this can be done for vehicles but never thought/ realized you could do this for dental equipment as well.

Hopefully there's more substance behind that claim and they really do provide an edge when it comes to that area as well.

*I'm not trying to justify the tuition. I was just responding to your comment about not preparing for the realities of their debt. Hopefully MWU students are a bit more prepared*

 

[2TH MVR]

At MWU they made it pretty apparent that they focus as much on business and finances as they do clinical work. They care about money and did not try to hide that whatsoever. I thought it was refreshing/real. They wanted to make their students successful private practice owners rather than dental researchers like many other schools want. At my interview one example they brought up is how they teach students to lease certain equipment rather than own and write it off as a Section 179. I know from my own experience how this can be done for vehicles but never thought/ realized you could do this for dental equipment as well.

Hopefully there's more substance behind that claim and they really do provide an edge when it comes to that area as well.

*I'm not trying to justify the tuition. I was just responding to your comment about not preparing for the realities of their debt. Hopefully MWU students are a bit more prepared*

Look. That's all they have. Just trying to justify their damn high tuition. Any cheaper DS can offer some business courses. Not just them. Bottom line. They and other high tuition DS are part of the problem as we all know.
I live in AZ. I see their graduates all the time. There is nothing impressive about them compared to any other cheaper DS graduate. Many work at the local Corps to pay off their huge loans. There was one who associated with the loyal GPs next to my ortho office. The amount of ortho BS he was telling our mutual ortho patients ... you would have thought he went to ortho residency lol. He joined that practice to buy in as a partner. NEVER HAPPENED. He got cold feet because of the high DS debt he had.

Almost 3 years ago .... I put my two ortho practices up for sale. Plenty of young ortho grads were looking at my practices. Many worked at the local Corps and were desperately looking to own a private practice. I was not looking for huge money for these practices. The bottom line was that the banks were not willing to loan $$ to a recent grad or even one that had been working for a few years because of THEIR HIGH DS AND RESIDENCY DEBT. Instead of a young orthodontist buying my practice ..... an older, more established ortho bought it. Young graduating dentists complaining that dentists don't retire, Corps buying practices, etc. etc. Well .... obviously .... their huge DS debt is also a contributing factor.

I've met some of their attendings, PT and FT time faculty. Nothing impressive. Most are dentists (one is a good friend) who were disabled, old, or were not equipped to run a successful private dental office in the real world. So these individuals are the "experts" at MWU? Last time I met up with my dentist friend (works at MWU) .... all he could talk about was disserving another raise.

The bells and whistles is not worth it. Go to a cheap DS ..... if given the opportunity. After graduation .... seek out a trusted dental specific tax accountant. I paid this person a monthly fee. We met every quarter to review the numbers. He is an expert with examining all the matrices of running a business. You, as a recent grad, are not. Focus on dentistry and have experts help you on the business side.

 

[Cold Front]

At MWU they made it pretty apparent that they focus as much on business and finances as they do clinical work. They care about money and did not try to hide that whatsoever. I thought it was refreshing/real. They wanted to make their students successful private practice owners rather than dental researchers like many other schools want. At my interview one example they brought up is how they teach students to lease certain equipment rather than own and write it off as a Section 179. I know from my own experience how this can be done for vehicles but never thought/ realized you could do this for dental equipment as well.

Hopefully there's more substance behind that claim and they really do provide an edge when it comes to that area as well.

*I'm not trying to justify the tuition. I was just responding to your comment about not preparing for the realities of their debt. Hopefully MWU students are a bit more prepared*

The business end of dentistry can be self taught. DS should have just 1 goal, teach students to be dentists. No school can prepare you to be a business savvy dentist, there are a lot of moving parts to that side of dentistry; your personality, your ambition level, your attitude to risk, your personal vision, the community you will practice in, the staff and people you will surround yourself with, etc. For me, the last place I would learn my business skills is DS.

Also, anyone can look up section 179 on Wikipedia - or even in these forums if you use the “search” feature.


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[Cold Front]

The US has fertility rate is at an all time low since we started recording fertility rates in the early 1900's and the average age of people in the US settling down and getting married is continually increasing towards geriatric age. When I tell people my age I want to have at least 4 kids, they look horrified. 20 years ago, this would have been celebrated. There are large cultural problems on top of our economic decline.

Yes. This is a difficult topic to discuss for many people, and when I say “many people”, I mean those who are oblivious to the subject.

I watched SNL last weekend with Eddie Murphy. He has 10 kids - from age 1 to age 30. He also just became a grandfather at age 58, a very late grandpa for a baby boomer. The young generation want to check off a lot of goals from their list before they get married; school, career, pay off debt, savings, etc. That checklist can take at least a decade or 2 to go through before getting married and starting a family - hence the average marriage age jumped from early 20s to early 30s in just couple of decades. Many people in the younger generation grew up in homes where parents are divorced, separated or made bad financial decisions. So they have first hand experience in those events to guide them through life and not repeat the mistakes their parents made.

Another (sort of) related and interesting story in the papers (NYT); Japan lost more than 500,000 in population because of less kids born and extreme aging this year. There were 200,000 less females between age 25 and 39 compared to this time last year - who could have been married and have kids. The youth population in Japan is shrinking so fast that kids will become rare. Many rural parts in Japan have no kids. The article said this year was the lowest birth rate in that country since 1874!

Anyways, the world is becoming more demanding and more expensive to live in - maybe not for dentists, but for the rest of society. And that will have many implications, including getting married and starting a family.


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[AppalachianDentalBoy]

I disagree. I became debt aware during my app cycle and decided I would only go to my state school. I'm sure I'm not the only one who can be swayed.

Same. Received four interviews to state schools then turned down/withdrew from the private schools I applied to.

Everyone has a number to walk away from a profession. What’s yours? $700k in student loans? $1M? $2M?

350K

 

[Combine33]

Look. That's all they have. Just trying to justify their damn high tuition. Any cheaper DS can offer some business courses. Not just them. Bottom line. They and other high tuition DS are part of the problem as we all know.
I live in AZ. I see their graduates all the time. There is nothing impressive about them compared to any other cheaper DS graduate. Many work at the local Corps to pay off their huge loans. There was one who associated with the loyal GPs next to my ortho office. The amount of ortho BS he was telling our mutual ortho patients ... you would have thought he went to ortho residency lol. He joined that practice to buy in as a partner. NEVER HAPPENED. He got cold feet because of the high DS debt he had.

Almost 3 years ago .... I put my two ortho practices up for sale. Plenty of young ortho grads were looking at my practices. Many worked at the local Corps and were desperately looking to own a private practice. I was not looking for huge money for these practices. The bottom line was that the banks were not willing to loan $$ to a recent grad or even one that had been working for a few years because of THEIR HIGH DS AND RESIDENCY DEBT. Instead of a young orthodontist buying my practice ..... an older, more established ortho bought it. Young graduating dentists complaining that dentists don't retire, Corps buying practices, etc. etc. Well .... obviously .... their huge DS debt is also a contributing factor.

I've met some of their attendings, PT and FT time faculty. Nothing impressive. Most are dentists (one is a good friend) who were disabled, old, or were not equipped to run a successful private dental office in the real world. So these individuals are the "experts" at MWU? Last time I met up with my dentist friend (works at MWU) .... all he could talk about was disserving another raise.

The bells and whistles is not worth it. Go to a cheap DS ..... if given the opportunity. After graduation .... seek out a trusted dental specific tax accountant. I paid this person a monthly fee. We met every quarter to review the numbers. He is an expert with examining all the matrices of running a business. You, as a recent grad, are not. Focus on dentistry and have experts help you on the business side.

Boy did I have my typing fingers ready to reply, but you hit it right on the head.

 

[Cold Front]

350K

$350k debt is reasonable. $600k+ is when it starts to get complicated for an associate dentist with $150-200k a year income.



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[ToothJockey]

$350k debt is reasonable. $600k+ is when it starts to get complicated for an associate dentist with $150-200k a year income.



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If you're an associate, I'd argue it starts to get complicated at 400k. For an owner, 600k-700k is probably the limit.

Quality of life increases as debt decreases

 

[GoDental101]

If you're an associate, I'd argue it starts to get complicated at 400k. For an owner, 600k-700k is probably the limit.

Quality of life increases as debt decreases

Ownership isn’t always the answer to solving massive amounts of debt. The higher the debt the harder it will to become an owner in the first place.

 

[Blueshirts]

5 years ago on this forum people talked about the absolute reasonable maximum in loans at the time payback begins, as being 300-350k. Now, 5 years later, in my state the total COA for a student with no outside financial help is already at this point; being born and raised outside of the coastal states is looking more and more like a blessing for some pre-dents.

 

[ToothJockey]

Ownership isn’t always the answer to solving massive amounts of debt. The higher the debt the harder it will to become an owner in the first place.

ya true, that's why most new grads are screwed, with an associate income it's hard to pay off debt, but with the debt they won't be able to buy a practice to increase income. double whammy

dentistry is great for the rich who won't have debt, terrible for the poor who will have tons of debt
rich get richer poor get poorer where have we seen that before

 

[GoDental101]

ya true, that's why most new grads are screwed, with an associate income it's hard to pay off debt, but with the debt they won't be able to buy a practice to increase income. double whammy

dentistry is great for the rich who won't have debt, terrible for the poor who will have tons of debt
rich get richer poor get poorer where have we seen that before

It can be good for the poor too, if they can get good grades and get into their state school. Lots of people get need based aid for both undergrad and dental school just based on being low income. However, it’s typically only the cheap state schools that offer this. So it really all comes down to going to the cheapest school you can.