My chances?

[WaryWildcat]

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I just got my MCAT score and it was a 39 (14 PS/13 VR/12 BS), which I am obviously thrilled about. However, the rest of my stats:

GPA: 3.72
sGPA: 3.70
Home state: IL

ECs:
volunteering experience at a mental hospital (I lead the group now) - 120 hr
volunteered for a summer at a local ER - 50 hr
Astrophysics Research for a summer after freshman year - got a publication
two years of executive positions in my fraternity (Recruitment, Philanthropy)
Executive position for a volunteering group on campus
Order of Omega (honors society)


My deal is that I was a physics major intending to go to graduate school until I got that research experience - then realized that I hated it. That was less than two years ago. I've gotten the rest of the premed stuff since that time, and had to take summer school to get through premed requirements. I couldn't get through a bio major in that time, however, so I've done an econ major. However, I'm using it to study healthcare-related things, as I am writing an honors thesis on the impact of defensive medicine on healthcare costs. I think that's pretty unique, but whatever.

Anyhoo, here's my list:
Rush
UIC
Loyola
U of C
NU
SLU
Medical College of Wisconsin
Vanderbilt
Duke
Emory
UCSF
UCLA
Tufts


I like the idea of going to a UC, even though I'm out of state, since I kind of want to move out there, and med school would be cheap, but I understand this is difficult to do. Am I completely screwed for these?

Also, I visited U of C's med school with my dad (who did med school, residency, and fellowship there) last week and was very impressed- I really like the way that people there immerse themselves in the academics rather than worrying about grades/career/how to get to point B. Much different from my undergrad school, which I hate (very preppy midwestern private). Do I have a shot with that kind-of low GPA? Will my MCAT mean anything there? Any of you out there know anything about how to help me get in to Pritzker specifically? Also, I am currently looking to add 3-5 schools to my list. Got any suggestions, especially given my affections for Pritzker?

 

[WaryWildcat]

Bump!!

 

[mmmcdowe]

Bump!!

Pitt
Case Western
U of Michigan
2 top 10 schools of your choice.

 

[Mobius1985]

You certainly have a good shot at UChicago stats-wise and maybe are even a candidate for one of their hefty merit scholarships. Keep in mind that this is a research powerhouse. I've heard that they've recently cut the incoming class size so they can assign a faculty research mentor to each student. If you "hated" research, that may not be the best school for you. I'd put Duke in a similiar category.

Perhaps they gave you insights into this issue during your tour that you could share with us.

 

[WaryWildcat]

I didn't make that clear enough, I guess. I hated doing physics research; it's a lot of computer programming, and very little interaction with people. The actual research part, however, I didn't mind. That said, I have virtually no experience with medical research, so this could hurt my chances if U of C makes a big deal about this, no?

From the tour, I got the sense that U of C makes a lot of training "triple threats" - that is, people who are great clinicians, educators, and researchers. They really want people to be well-rounded in every sense of the word. I have a passion for education (I've been involved with tutoring since high school), so I really like that side of it. I didn't hear anything about the research mentor thing when I was there, although I do know that U of C is very strong in research, so it wouldn't surprise me.

Mobius, do you have any advice about my other questions (about UCalifornia schools) and what schools I should add to my list, given that I like places where everyone is more concerned with the academics, and less concerned the extrinsic stuff (like GPA/career/etc)? Also, do you think I need SLU/MCW on there, or do you think I'm a safe bet to get in somewhere in Chicago? (I've heard that "safety schools" such as those can screen high MCATs out, which could screw me - how true is this?)

 

[Stratego]

California schools seem to like people who are outstanding in some way, other than stats, whether it be research, humanitarian work, or leadership. There are many in-state applicants who are outstanding, but don't get accepted in-state due to a lack of available spots, so the process is even more demanding for those OOSers who apply. You can check the School Selection spreadsheet stickied at the top of this forum, which is an extract of the MSAR, and see how many OOSers are accepted at each CA school. If money is no object, five it a try, as miracles do happen.

 

[longhorn09]

Your list is a little too bottom-heavy considering your MCAT score. You should add a couple of top schools.😀

 

[Mobius1985]

I have virtually no experience with medical research, so this could hurt my chances if U of C makes a big deal about this, no?

Mobius, do you have any advice about my other questions (about UCalifornia schools) and what schools I should add to my list, given that I like places where everyone is more concerned with the academics, and less concerned the extrinsic stuff (like GPA/career/etc)? Also, do you think I need SLU/MCW on there, or do you think I'm a safe bet to get in somewhere in Chicago? (I've heard that "safety schools" such as those can screen high MCATs out, which could screw me - how true is this?)

I'd say that the lack of substantive research on your activities list will hurt you, but that possibly the fact that you can invoke "legacy" consideration due to your dad will help at UChicago.

I concur with Stratego on the CA schools issue. Again, you'll be hurt by your minimal past research involvement.

It's true that you might be given less consideration at some places due to your high stats.

I try to stay away from suggesting alternative schools. No one , even with high stats, is a safe bet to get into a given school. "Apply broadly" applies to you too. It seems you'd be happiest at schools with a pass/fail grading system. Maybe you'd like a warm place. Here are some resources you can use to evaluate other schools:

Overall school evaluation http://www.amsa.org/premed/medsurvey/

For curriculum type ttp://services.aamc.org/currdir/section2/courses.cfm

 

[WaryWildcat]

Thanks Mobius! I appreciate to the advice.

 

[majestic red]

I did undergrad at U of C and was going to stay at Pritzker for med school until I got off the waitlist at WashU.

I actually think that Pritzker will like the fact that you did the astrophysics research. The U of C in general puts a lot of weight on interdisciplinary work, and has lots of opportunities for med students to take classes at elsewhere on campus or get dual degrees. That said, the lack of other research experience might hurt you, as other people have mentioned.

 

[WaryWildcat]

Well, I don't really have a lack of other research experience per se; I'm writing an honors thesis for my economics major that I take very seriously and am passionate about; it's also health related (about the economic impact of defensive medicine practices). Should I list this on the application somehow, or just save it to be discussed in secondary applications and/or interviews?

Also, this reminds me, I have a nagging question, and perhaps I can ask you fellow SDNers about this one. I actually did 5-6 months of (what I thought was going to be) neurobiology research earlier this year. However, the research turned out to be more psych/behavioral research, which doesn't interest me. Also, the professor was senile and socially inept (even by professor standards); as such, the lab was going nowhere,since he could hold down no post docs or grad students working in his lab. Furthermore, he openly insulted all of the students, including myself. I figured that I have all M3, M4, and all of residency to get pooped on by superiors, so I quit. Should I list this experience on my AMCAS? Even though it was meaningless and ended poorly, it is still research experience; however, I would have to explain why I quit, etc. Any thoughts?

 

[Mobius1985]

If you haven't completed the thesis, it should not be listed. But once you do, it will be an excellent experience to include in a future update letter. Had the work been complete, it would belong on your Primary activities list.

Good question about the neurobio research. You could get burned on that one if you aren't very careful. As it's the more recent research, if you include it, it will seem very odd that the professor didn't write you a Letter of Recommendation. On the other hand, its inclusion would make you look better at research strong schools. If you decide to list it, I would not include the reason you left (rule #1: always be positive), just a description of the project. You would have to list a contact person and it doesn't sound like there was a grad assistant you could use. If you left at the end of a semester, that could be considered a common wrap-up time; if not, it might look odd. Some interviewer is likely to ask about it. Have a good answer that doesn't include dissing the senile professor.

 

[WaryWildcat]

Mobius,

I left after winter quarter (my school is on the quarter system), so I guess it wouldn't look that odd. Also, while there isn't a grad assistant, there was an undergraduate senior who basically did what graduate students would be doing in a real laboratory. Could I list her as the contact person? She is actually very personable and has a high opinion of me.

Also, I have another question (I apologize for the barrage, but my university has poor advising and the people honestly know less than I do). I am signed up to start volunteering at a free health clinic in Chicago this summer; I will be trained in phlebotomy and emergency triage to do this job. However, I start training July 14, which is around a month after I will submit my AMCAS. Should I list this experience?

 

[WaryWildcat]

Bump

 

[Stratego]

However, I start training July 14, which is around a month after I will submit my AMCAS. Should I list this experience?

No, you cannot list an experience you haven't begun yet. It is however a good thing to include in future update letters.

 

[Mobius1985]

I left after winter quarter (my school is on the quarter system), so I guess it wouldn't look that odd. Also, while there isn't a grad assistant, there was an undergraduate senior who basically did what graduate students would be doing in a real laboratory. Could I list her as the contact person?

Yes, I can't think of any reason why you couldn't do that. You should not use her for a Letter of Recommendation though without getting a faculty person to cosign it, since she's also an undergrad student.

 

[WaryWildcat]

Okay, that's what I thought. Regardless of listing this or not, I am definitely not getting a rec letter from anyone involved with that project. Do you think, then, that the advantage of listing it outweighs the disadvantage of looking sketchy for not having a rec letter from someone involved with this research.

 

[Mobius1985]

Mine is only one opinion, and you should not decide based on one opinion. But it seems to me the advantage of listing the experience to make yourself more appealing to research-intense institutions outweighs the negative consequence that you will be asked to discuss the experience in detail. If the latter happens, and they don't like your answer, the worst is that they will not admit you. If you don't list the experience, you may not be offered an interview at all. It may be difficult/impossible to obscure the fact that this was not a positive experience for you. You may have to admit that you did not get a letter because the PI did not regard you in a positive light. You should be prepared to include what you learned from the experience and how you'd keep the same thing from happening again.

Don't be thinking this type of interogation can't happen. For one of my interviews they chose a faculty member with expertise in my area of research. I had done three projects in the same lab and the entire interview was a minute inspection and criticsm of every procedure and decision I had made. As it happens, I came to realize this was in reality a classic "stress interview" where an adcomm wants to see how you handle pressure. Even though this happened three years ago, the pain lives on in memory, despite the fact that he told me I could come work in his lab anythime towards the end of the interview.

Ask your dad what he thinks. And maybe other SDNers will chime in with ideas as well.

 

[WaryWildcat]

Yeah, I think the benefits to posting the research experience outweigh the disadvantages.

I decided to write it off on my AMCAS as such, "I worked in this lab until Spring Quarter 2009, at which point I had completed the necessary coursework to start working on my undergraduate honors thesis for economics." This is actually true, but misleading, as I would have kept working in the lab if the prof didn't irritate me to death. And, it's not negative at all; I think it just shows that I wanted to keep up some research involvement before being able to do the work that I legitimately wanted to do with myself.

Good call?

 

[Mobius1985]

Personally, I would just leave it at a description of the project you worked on and no mention of reason for leaving. Save that for "if you're asked". By making an excuse that may not be needed, you are calling attention to it. Instead put the start date for the thesis project for the next month, which, if anyone is overanalyzing your application, will make it evident that you were continuing with another scholarly activity.

 

[WaryWildcat]

I apologize again for the barrage. So you think I should list my Ugrad thesis under the Activities section, even though I have only completed a literature review as of yet? I think this might be a better thing to save for an update letter, no (It will probably be finished sometime in the fall or early winter, in the thick of interview season)?

Thanks again for answering all my questions; I greatly appreciate it.

 

[Stratego]

Maybe you could call it something other than a thesis (for now, until it's complete). If it's an ongoing project, averaging more than an hour/week of time, including meeting with the professor, possibly you could list it under "Other," since the activity is significant to you.

 

[Mobius1985]

Oops. I forgot the thesis wasn't done yet (Sorry). But the advice given above still stands about giving only a description of the psych research activity. Stratego has a good idea though, since you've already begun the project. It is an activity. But does it qualify as a sufficiently substantive activity? How many hours would you say you've put into it? If you've only just begun, it is not yet developed enough to include. In which case, it would be most correct to save it for update letters. If you spent say two hours a week for five to six months on average, you might list it.

Another cautionary note: we've seen posters here who began a thesis project so they could graduate with honors. They put on their application that they would graduate with honors (breaking the "If you haven't done it, don't mention it" rule). Then they posted that they'd rather not complete the project as it was too much work, and what should they do. This is why the word "thesis" shouldn't be present in your narrative if you mention it. Sometimes things happen that prevent the completion of an activity you've committed yourself to.

 

[WaryWildcat]

I have only completed a literature review for the project; however, this involved a lot of research and has taken up more time than any of my other engagements since the MCAT. I am enrolled in an Independent Study right now which enables me to work on the thesis 1-on-1 with a professor, so it actually appears on my transcript, but only as "Indep. Study" with no description thereof. Thus, an adcom wouldn't know what it was unless I explained it elsewhere on my application. My intention is to eventually submit the thesis to graduate with honors, although there are obviously no guarantees about this, so I will not mention it on the application. I probably have spent around 30 hours or so working on the thesis over the past 6 weeks or so, and will be working on it over the summer.

This is definitely a substantive activity for me; I am passionate about health policy, especially tort reform. However, I don't actually have that much done as of yet. I would have started it sooner, as I've known that I wanted to do this for some time now, but I had to finish the 6 prerequisite courses before starting work, which I was only able to do by this winter quarter. Then again, listing it would show continuity of scholarly involvement which, given the schools I am applying to, would definitely be to my advantage. Thoughts, SDNers?

Also, just for reference, I am still waiting to submit my AMCAS; I can't really do so till spring quarter grades come out, which is in around a week. Again, any schools you guys might recommend for a guy with decent grades, a high MCAT, and an interest in interdisciplinary research, who needs either warm weather or a big city?