My college convicted me of forgery: What are my chances now?

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premed99887766 said:
To be frank, I don't remember doing it. The form was recorded as submitted mid-finals week, and I was deliriously sleepy the whole week. I woke up one morning to find a charge in my inbox that confused and frightened me.
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If you honestly don't recall something that important, then perhaps you weren't cut out to be a doctor in the first place. But actually, if what you're saying is 100% true, then your memory must not be that good or you have a problem recalling very important things. Either way, like we've been saying, it's really not good for you.
 
Use your common sense OP. Will your signature carry any weight as a physician?
 
HCHopeful said:
I get why this is such a bad offense, but I'm struggling to understand why the use of drugs is so easily forgiven when this isn't?

I've seen multiple posts explaining that drugs are just "dumb mistakes" and not evident of true character. To me, this is somewhat similar.

Truthfully, if I were on an adcom, I would throw out this app and the app with the "dumb mistake" of doing drugs. Then again, I'm not, so oh well.

I don't feel sorry for you, OP, because your actions were your own. I do, however, wish you the best and hope this one "dumb mistake" doesn't hold you back from your dream. After all, I'd rather have a physician who forged a signature than one who toked it up constantly.

Note: I realize my drug stance is pretty harsh and many on here probably disagree, so I'll be refraining from responding to any argument regarding drugs.
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Because there is nothing ethical or unethical about drugs....they just are
 
^ You mean other than the fact that they're uhh....illegal?
 
sb247 said:
Because there is nothing ethical or unethical about drugs....they just are
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Exactly. What is defined as a "drug" is also political. It's also a personal choice. I believe that choosing to use drugs is neither ethical or unethical. Illegality is also subjective. Alcohol was illegal once. What does choosing to drink say about somebody? But choosing to forge something clearly says something about character.
 
xyphr said:
^ You mean other than the fact that they're uhh....illegal?
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That has nothing to do with ethics

Using drugs does mean you are a stupid undergrad in that it risks your future career....but not unethical
 
premed99887766 said:
Hello, SDN --

My GPA is over 3.9, with a spread of academic awards, volunteering and two first co-authorships with professors in the works. I'm pre-MCAT, but let's assume I do well.

Unfortunately, my university convicted me of forgery of a faculty member's signature. As we all know, institutional actions must be reported in the AMCAS.

Let's take the option of not reporting this conviction off the table.

If I were to submit my AMCAS with this charge listed, how would medical schools react to the application?

Let's say that I am still committed to becoming a doctor. What should I do now?

Calling all ADCOMs: @mimelim @Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn
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US MD/DO, if #1 you have a perfect application, #2 you applied to dozens of schools, you may find a backer that will fight for you and get you in. But, you would literally have to be a 3.9/40 + ECs through the roof etc. Otherwise, as everyone has said here, this kind of IA is about as bad as they come.

If being a physician in the US is your end goal, going to a Caribbean school is your best option. It is still a bad option, but it is the best IF the only end point is being an MD in the US. The realities still exist, there is a high attrition rate in the Caribbean, the education is worse and the matching is terrible. It is possible to become a board certified physician, and the likelihood of you getting in there is significantly greater than elsewhere. Personally, I would find another career. To me there are no rewards worth the risks of going to the Caribbean. But, everyone is different.
 

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HCHopeful said:
I get why this is such a bad offense, but I'm struggling to understand why the use of drugs is so easily forgiven when this isn't?

I've seen multiple posts explaining that drugs are just "dumb mistakes" and not evident of true character. To me, this is somewhat similar.

Truthfully, if I were on an adcom, I would throw out this app and the app with the "dumb mistake" of doing drugs. Then again, I'm not, so oh well.

I don't feel sorry for you, OP, because your actions were your own. I do, however, wish you the best and hope this one "dumb mistake" doesn't hold you back from your dream. After all, I'd rather have a physician who forged a signature than one who toked it up constantly.

Note: I realize my drug stance is pretty harsh and many on here probably disagree, so I'll be refraining from responding to any argument regarding drugs.
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Based off of what I have gleaned from previous threads about similar issues, missteps involving lying or cheating are viewed as a reflection of one's character. Unethical premeds are more likely to turn into unethical doctors. This is why a drug offense may be forgiven as an immature mistake, whereas lying or cheating is often the nail in the coffin.
 
Regarding the comparisons between drugs/alcohol related infractions vs. academic infractions. I've seen the toll that drugs and alcohol have had on dozens of patients. But, from my personal experience, it just doesn't reflect negatively on people's character. Poor decision making? Sure. Can they be rotten people? Sure. But, universally bad? Not even close. Academic infractions on the other hand, I haven't met someone with serious IAs or that I know of with major infractions that didn't get caught that I would trust caring for people. People give crap for saying, "Since you have XYZ you won't be a good doctor." Well, this is one of those cases for me. If you aren't trustworthy, you can't be a good physician. Personal opinion, but I don't think I'm too crazy here.
 
Honestly I think this whole emphasis on caring for the patient is a bit much. Caring for people medically means problem solving. Maybe a nurse needs to care on a deeper level or whatever, but almost every doctor I know doesn't claim to do it because they love helping people and some that I am close to have admitted that, while they have to say that caring for people is incredibly rewarding, and it is to some extent, the job for them is 99% about knowing the medicine and solving the issue. You've got a good GPA and if you get a solid MCAT and are intelligent about how you discuss your conviction I think somewhere will take you. ADCOM opinions on here are incredibly valuable but don't take them as law.

And even speaking as a patient, I'd much prefer some 3.9/40/260 jerk than a less intelligent/hardworking "nice" physician.
 
HCHopeful said:
After all, I'd rather have a physician who forged a signature than one who toked it up constantly.
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What if they falsified your medical documents to cover up a mistake they made? You don't even find out you got 200x the radiation dosage during that CT scan until the brain tumor you have knocks out the vision in your left eye. (Specific enough?)
 
Axes said:
Honestly I think this whole emphasis on caring for the patient is a bit much. Caring for people medically means problem solving. Maybe a nurse needs to care on a deeper level or whatever, but almost every doctor I know doesn't claim to do it because they love helping people and some that I am close to have admitted that, while they have to say that caring for people is incredibly rewarding, and it is to some extent, the job for them is 99% about knowing the medicine and solving the issue. You've got a good GPA and if you get a solid MCAT and are intelligent about how you discuss your conviction I think somewhere will take you. ADCOM opinions on here are incredibly valuable but don't take them as law.

And even speaking as a patient, I'd much prefer some 3.9/40/260 jerk than a less intelligent/hardworking "nice" physician.
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part of solving the issue is understanding the patients, at least for most specialties, and their socioeconomical/religious/cultural/family background. To understand a patient is to care.

there are really no ways to discuss this conviction "intelligently"
 
Axes said:
Honestly I think this whole emphasis on caring for the patient is a bit much. Caring for people medically means problem solving. Maybe a nurse needs to care on a deeper level or whatever, but almost every doctor I know doesn't claim to do it because they love helping people and some that I am close to have admitted that, while they have to say that caring for people is incredibly rewarding, and it is to some extent, the job for them is 99% about knowing the medicine and solving the issue.
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Please stop right there and save yourself from going through the rigors of training to become a doctor. If you have no desire to take care of patients then you should not be a "caregiver". While loving helping people is not a necessity for the job, I would bet that you would find much, much more success in a career as a physician if you actually cared about your patient's wellbeing. What I think you might be overlooking is that the emphasis on caring for the patient is probably one of the most important components in obtaining the pieces of the puzzle to solve the issue. You can't get the pieces without gaining the trust of the patient, and no one is trusting you if they don't feel like you care about them.
 
Axes said:
Honestly I think this whole emphasis on caring for the patient is a bit much. Caring for people medically means problem solving. Maybe a nurse needs to care on a deeper level or whatever, but almost every doctor I know doesn't claim to do it because they love helping people and some that I am close to have admitted that, while they have to say that caring for people is incredibly rewarding, and it is to some extent, the job for them is 99% about knowing the medicine and solving the issue. You've got a good GPA and if you get a solid MCAT and are intelligent about how you discuss your conviction I think somewhere will take you. ADCOM opinions on here are incredibly valuable but don't take them as law.

And even speaking as a patient, I'd much prefer some 3.9/40/260 jerk than a less intelligent/hardworking "nice" physician.
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The smartest doctor in the world is worthless if the patient doesn't follow their treatment plan because their doctor is a jerk and they don't trust them. You really don't know what you are talking about. Every doctor has a different approach and some are nicer than others, but you have to care to do this job, otherwise your patients are at risk. You also have to know as a doctor that there's a person on the end of your treatment plan and what might "solve their issue" might not be the best decision for them.

There's also no reason why a physician can't be both intelligent and nice. But if you prefer a jerk, please don't assume that all your future patients do as well (although if you gave the preceding diatribe to ADCOM, you would be unlikely to have any future patients), I have a feeling that you are a outlier.
 
Axes said:
Honestly I think this whole emphasis on caring for the patient is a bit much. Caring for people medically means problem solving. Maybe a nurse needs to care on a deeper level or whatever, but almost every doctor I know doesn't claim to do it because they love helping people and some that I am close to have admitted that, while they have to say that caring for people is incredibly rewarding, and it is to some extent, the job for them is 99% about knowing the medicine and solving the issue. You've got a good GPA and if you get a solid MCAT and are intelligent about how you discuss your conviction I think somewhere will take you. ADCOM opinions on here are incredibly valuable but don't take them as law.

And even speaking as a patient, I'd much prefer some 3.9/40/260 jerk than a less intelligent/hardworking "nice" physician.
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I think this is in reference to me, but I'm not sure.

You don't know anything about practicing medicine. I would recommend that you do some shadowing before you apply to medical school. The biggest problem is that you don't know what you don't know. You think that clinical problem solving is about academics? Being smart helps, of course it does. But, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans if nobody can trust you. It means nothing if you don't care enough to actually show up or not leave early. It means nothing if you can't communicate with the rest of the treatment team and the patient.

Thankfully, we can largely take the smart non-IA nice people, so all of this is moot. You wonder who the 3.9/40 people are that don't get into medical school? Look in a mirror. Just don't come back and start yelling about how random and luck-based the admissions process is when grades alone aren't enough.
 
HCHopeful said:
I get why this is such a bad offense, but I'm struggling to understand why the use of drugs is so easily forgiven when this isn't?

I've seen multiple posts explaining that drugs are just "dumb mistakes" and not evident of true character. To me, this is somewhat similar.

Truthfully, if I were on an adcom, I would throw out this app and the app with the "dumb mistake" of doing drugs. Then again, I'm not, so oh well.

I don't feel sorry for you, OP, because your actions were your own. I do, however, wish you the best and hope this one "dumb mistake" doesn't hold you back from your dream. After all, I'd rather have a physician who forged a signature than one who toked it up constantly.

Note: I realize my drug stance is pretty harsh and many on here probably disagree, so I'll be refraining from responding to any argument regarding drugs.
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Not everyone that does drugs becomes an addict. I'd be willing to bet that at least one person on the adcom at just about every medical school has done some sort of drug in their youth. I think that having a brush with the law over a minor drug or alcohol offense (I don't mean getting caught with a kilo of cocaine and being charged with the intent to distribute) is more relatable for most people. It's easier to chalk it up to the immature and wild days of youth. Everyone likes the underdog and a transformation story is always fun to hear about.

With the forgery charge, I think it's worse that he/she has such good grades. If they had ****ty grades, the forgery charge could be chalked up to the obvious trend of underachievement. With this single red flag jutting from an otherwise presumably perfect application, I would wonder a lot about how he got those good grades and what else he hasn't been caught doing.
 
To follow up on my learned colleague's words, his thoughts here are mirrored 100% by every one of my clinical colleagues. They take professionalism very seriously, because they know that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.


Regarding the comparisons between drugs/alcohol related infractions vs. academic infractions. I've seen the toll that drugs and alcohol have had on dozens of patients. But, from my personal experience, it just doesn't reflect negatively on people's character. Poor decision making? Sure. Can they be rotten people? Sure. But, universally bad? Not even close. Academic infractions on the other hand, I haven't met someone with serious IAs or that I know of with major infractions that didn't get caught that I would trust caring for people. People give crap for saying, "Since you have XYZ you won't be a good doctor." Well, this is one of those cases for me. If you aren't trustworthy, you can't be a good physician. Personal opinion, but I don't think I'm too crazy here.
 
Yeah for some reason you come off as particularly scummy for this infraction. The worst part is you aren't owning up to it at all and are blaming it on sleep deprivation and have a convenient case of amnesia all of a sudden. I wouldn't trust you to have my back on a trauma call.

Plus are you goint to display more poor judgement when you're sleep deprived as physician then have more amnesia when you have to deal with the consequences?
 
I'm going to go with Spidey about what I think about this thread maker...

3159411-my-troll-sense-is-tingling.jpg
 
Just curious, if OP had committed the same crime in his junior/senior year of high school, would it matter?
 
GonnaBeADocOneDay said:
Please stop right there and save yourself from going through the rigors of training to become a doctor. If you have no desire to take care of patients then you should not be a "caregiver". While loving helping people is not a necessity for the job, I would bet that you would find much, much more success in a career as a physician if you actually cared about your patient's wellbeing. What I think you might be overlooking is that the emphasis on caring for the patient is probably one of the most important components in obtaining the pieces of the puzzle to solve the issue. You can't get the pieces without gaining the trust of the patient, and no one is trusting you if they don't feel like you care about them.
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Some doctors have little (if any) direct patient interaction. Lots of specialties don't "take care of patients" at all. Although I think we can all agree that we would prefer a caring doctor, it often really doesn't make a difference (or has the chance to make a difference).

Let's also not forget that the amount of time a doctor has to interact with a patient is extremely limited. In most specialties, one couldn't come off as "caring" even if they wanted to - there's simply not enough time - medicine is all about efficiency now and seeing as many people in as little time as possible... This is only going to get worse. Nurses are beginning (some would say they already have) to replace physicians as the "care-giver" and patient advocate. So, if this is what primarily motivates you, I say you should consider changing your career choice. Medicine is not as personal for the physician as it used to be.
 
ZedsDed said:
Why is this curious? We hold kids to a different standard than adults. Logic
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18 year old in high school is just as much an adult as an 18 year old in college. I'm curious too.
 
No, nobody cares about what you did in HS unless it was a crime of violence.
 
DrHart said:
18 year old in high school is just as much an adult as an 18 year old in college. I'm curious too.
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Yeah, but it's a completely different culture. You're around different people, in a different environment, and you're no longer living at home. You are more an adult once you enter college than you've ever been in your life. College is like a chance to start over if you realize you made mistakes in high school. So if you make more mistakes in college, they're less forgiveable. If you do start over, then four years is a long time to change and the person coming out of college is so much different from the person entering college.
 
I'm sure med schools would care about academic dishonesty from high school. Sure, it probably wouldn't be weighted as heavily as a similar infraction in college, but it's still the same thing.

Again, where would colleges find out that someone was dishonest in high school (or med schools w/ undergrad institution)? It's not a criminal offense so it won't be on a background report, and I don't think it's included on the transcript, which is really the only way schools communicate with each other most of the time.
 
Tired said:
Have you been to college yet? It's totally on the transcript. That's what we're talking about here.
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How do you know that? Are the days I went to detention also on there? What about the time I forgot to carry my hall pass? Where are you getting this info?
 
I love how you guys take all of these assumptions for granted. I'm still not convinced that schools include IAs on transcripts (ESPECIALLY not high school transcripts). And even if some do, I'd bet others only include the grades. But yeah, keep assuming bud.
 
Tired said:
Is the cutoff chronological age or year in school? 18yo high school senior vs 18yo college freshman? 17yo college freshman vs 19yo college freshman? I'm curious about this too.
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Obviously the cutoff is relatively arbitrary; there is a gradient. AdCom members tend to be more forgiving of transgressions from freshmen than they are from graduating seniors (mileage may vary.) OP is 20/21 I wager, and should've known better.
 
Womb Raider said:
I love how you guys take all of these assumptions for granted. I'm still not convinced that schools include IAs on transcripts (ESPECIALLY not high school transcripts). And even if some do, I'd bet others only include the grades. But yeah, keep assuming bud.
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Not really the point.
 
Womb Raider said:
I love how you guys take all of these assumptions for granted. I'm still not convinced that schools include IAs on transcripts (ESPECIALLY not high school transcripts). And even if some do, I'd bet others only include the grades. But yeah, keep assuming bud.
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In college, at the very least a note is placed in the students file.
 
ZedsDed said:
Not really the point.
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The OP asked what his chances are, so this is absolutely the point.

ZedsDed said:
In college, at the very least a note is placed in the students file.
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Sure, but is that file sent with the transcript to other schools? Extremely doubtful.
 
How about we get someone who has looked at transcripts from HS and college and let them say what is usually on a transcript?
 
Womb Raider said:
The OP asked what his chances are, so this is absolutely the point.


Sure, but is that file sent with the transcript to other schools? Extremely doubtful.
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it happens. I can give you personal anecdotes, you can look them up here, or you can ask one of the AdCom members. And even if the med school does lag, what, he's somehow going to luck out during all of the countless times his academic background is probed over the years? People have been kicked out their third year of med school over this kind of crap.
 
Tired said:
Don't get wrong, I agree with you on the OP. It's just that this thread transitioned from a "What are my chances?" theme to a "What should happen?" thread, and I was curious what the thought process was from those who were basically saying "Hang him high!"

Obviously as a practical matter his app is ruined and he's not getting in anywhere. But the question of whether that's fair or right is a completely different question.
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The competitiveness of the process has made any blemish appear that much more magnified. This can be illogical at times, I agree. As for what the OP "deserves"...I don't think I'm qualified to comment
 
Last edited:
Medical school admissions seems to be dependent on three main things:

Academic competence. The bar for this is likely lower than most people on sdn envision. There are plenty of people with 32s at Harvard.

Being interesting. Having some sort of hook is very important, especially at top places. That was the main difference between top 50 to top 5 for me, accomplishments and passions outside of medicine.

An absense of red flags. Whether it's an IA, a negative letter, an insensitive comment during your interview, being overheard making a rude comment, looking at your phone instead of talking to people, drug use, a terrible semester etc.

OP there are plenty of people without red flags that want to go to medical school. If you were willing to forge a signature you may be willing to cheat. It casts doubt on all your academic achievements.
 
I've heard adcoms state multiple times that you're hosed if there is any indication of dishonesty on your record. Medicine is a sensitive field that requires honest individuals - people's lives are at stake when a physician acts dishonestly. Adcoms understand this, and they don't want their school's name associated with it if "quack Dr. Smith" appears in the news for taking millions in kickbacks from snake oil companies for prescribing their stuff to his cancer patients.

While your infraction is minor in comparison, Goro has said that dishonest doctors often start as dishonest students. While your stats are good, there are a lot of applicants who offer this without such a blemish on their record. I think you might need to consider another profession.
 
When you're 18, you're old enough to vote, drive, vote, pay taxes, smoke (in some states) and fight and die for your country. That's good enough for me that a college student should know enough NOT to forge someone's signature, vs what a child did in high school. What happened in high school stays in high school.

Tired said:
Do they not care? Or is it that they can't get ahold of those records?

When we talk about background checks, things that show up from high school are considered a red flag. But academic dishonesty from high school isn't?
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um apply in other countries like australia, in aus we only have to indicate if we got totally turfed from uni on med apps, oh and if we have a srs crim record
 
premed99887766 said:
Hello, SDN --

My GPA is over 3.9, with a spread of academic awards, volunteering and two first co-authorships with professors in the works. I'm pre-MCAT, but let's assume I do well.

Unfortunately, my university convicted me of forgery of a faculty member's signature. As we all know, institutional actions must be reported in the AMCAS.

Let's take the option of not reporting this conviction off the table.

If I were to submit my AMCAS with this charge listed, how would medical schools react to the application?

Let's say that I am still committed to becoming a doctor. What should I do now?

Calling all ADCOMs: @mimelim @Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn
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You are done mate. Pick another career.
 
So basically OP is screwed, Axes is severely misinformed, and both of them should never become doctors. Gotcha.

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou. The single greatest lesson I ever learned during undergrad.
 
Ace Khalifa said:
So basically OP is screwed, Axes is severely misinformed, and both of them should never become doctors. Gotcha.

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou. The single greatest lesson I ever learned during undergrad.
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That quote has always stuck with me
 
Womb Raider said:
How do you know that? Are the days I went to detention also on there? What about the time I forgot to carry my hall pass? Where are you getting this info?
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I hope not. I have several disciplinary actions from high school. Meh, didn't keep me out of college 😛
 
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