My Navy Medicine Experiences

[Ex_Blue]

I just came off of 6 yrs of active (and 6 months of inactive) Navy service. I've read many threads about comparing the Uniformed Services School with the HPSP. Here are some ideas, from just an average fleet flight surgeon who did it. i was a direct commission directly from a residency (i decided to leave the residency before completing it).

disclaimer: although NOT taking the HPSP scholarship was a large professional mistake, i do have insight on why and how it works practically.

i left medical school, middle of my class, and entered a 4-year categorical OB residency. i quickly knew that there was more to life than cervix checks, 3-per-week call (pre-ACGME work-hour requirements), and no weekends. after much soul-searching, i quit my residency, called a recruiter, and told him i wanted to be a Navy Flight surgeon. don't get me wrong, it was carefully planned, and i had considered the HPSP for years. i can honestly say that LEAVING the residency to do something "ou-of-the-box" was the smartest thing i've ever done in my life. i erroneously thought that not taking the scholarship would give me more flexibility with the navy, although perhaps it did, because i asked for a flight surgeon spot and got it. (if you sign on like i did, as a "direct commission," there is no loan payback program, unless you do a military residency, so you'll be stuck with your educational debt). every single other person in my flight surgeon class (about 25) was an HPSP scholarship recipient.

a quick rundown of what i got to do in the Navy:
i went to Newport, RI for OIS, then to flight surgery school in pensacola, FL.
i did a 2 year tour in Puerto Rico, then some time in texas with a jet-training squadron, then back to pensacola as the doc for the Navy Blue Angels.
finally, "stashed" for 6 months with Aviation Schools Command in pensacola. lots more flying-- got to fly in the new T-6 Texan II (a Pilatus PC-6 for you motorheads). then i entered residency, and left active duty.

i will forever feel that i was lucky, but i tell you truthfully that i got every set of orders i ever asked for. you must always remember that the needs of the navy will trump anything you want, so yes, you may get sent to a remote (austere) location where you cannot take your family. i thought the small chance was worth taking, and it was. the truth is, there's only a few really really remote billets, and even the people who go there say it was the best thing they've ever done.

i left the Navy after 6 1/2 years because i thought it was time to get back to the clinical side of life. being a flight surgeon is not the most "clinically-intensive" thing you will do as a doctor, but it is certainly the best opportunity to do something unique. when you apply for residency, you will have a tremendous advantage over your peer group, because you will have been in difficult situations, dealt with tough medical/admin issues, and solved complex problems. your "straight-out-of-internship" peers have not done these things. it isn't for everyone. it can be challenging, frustrating, and sometimes tiring. but it was NEVER boring. here's the short-list on some things i'm proud to say i've done:

-flown over a dozen different aircraft, from helicopters (4 different types) to jets.
-i've coordinated (and done) helicopter medevacs from a jungle, a bomb-range, a nuclear "boomer" submarine, from multiple ships of foreign registry (civilian and military)
-aircraft crash investigations
-i've flown faster than the speed of sound
-i've seen what 600+ knots looks like when you're just 50 feet above the ground
-i've been in an aircraft that climbed off the runway at 40,000 feet per minute (yes, it had rearview mirrors)
-i've been in a jet that's dropped bombs
-i got to chase a live anti-ship missile and watch it blow a ship apart
-most importantly, as a Blue Angel Flight Surgeon, i was lucky enough to represent the men and women who are overseas defending our freedom, and protecting our way of life.

i think these are mostly average Navy experiences for a flight surgeon (based on the fact that my buddies were doing the same kind of stuff)

the most important thing you get to do as a Navy Doc is not the medicine, you've got to see that. you become part of something larger than medicine, larger than yourself.

i personally believe that there are no "bad" billets in the Navy. i'd happily go overseas, because it is the only time in your life that you will get paid (and paid very well mind you) to live in a foreign country, experience the culture, meet the people, (and of course, fly over their houses), and learn that our way of life, although unique and special, is a very small part of an enormous world.

the best advice i give medical students when they ask me is this: do not listen to the people who tell you to "stay in the loop." your medical school advisor will tell you to do a research paper, apply to ivy-league residencies, etc. but the people who do those things will pale in comparison to you when you have been on a nuclear submarine, or removed wounded troops from a battlefield, or sat in the back of an F-18 and felt 7.5 g's in your lap. you will have life experience that makes you more well-rounded than all other residency applicants...

remember, success in medicine is not being board-certified. success in medicine is how you define yourself by what you've accomplished. it is the journey.

if you don't like flying, no worries. there are many many opportunities. it took me the first year of being in the navy just to see that there were hundreds of different things i could do. if you want to work with the SEALs, or you're interested in diving, be a Diving Medical Officer (DMO). you could be a General Medical Officer (GMO) and work with the Navy CBs (Construction Batallion). if you're interested in hospital management, Navy Medicine is a surefire way to give you early leadership experience.

finally, the military isn't for everyone. if you have ethical or moral issues that preclude you from what the military does, it's probably not for you. but what i want to stress here is that there is diversity, even in military life, and you are a tremendously important person as a doc.

i'm happy to offer whatever advice a washed-up flight-doc is worth. 🙂

i do not check this msg board, so please email me directly with specific questions.

just some thoughts from an average flight surgeon in the Navy...
[email protected] (please put SDN in the subject line so i know it's not spam)gary j mullen
Boston, MA

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[militarymd]

This is from someone who "washed out" from a residency training program from which the vast majority of people finish.

 

[jetproppilot]

I just came off of 6 yrs of active (and 6 months of inactive) Navy service. I've read many threads about comparing the Uniformed Services School with the HPSP. Here are some ideas, from just an average fleet flight surgeon who did it. i was a direct commission directly from a residency (i decided to leave the residency before completing it).

disclaimer: although NOT taking the HPSP scholarship was a large professional mistake, i do have insight on why and how it works practically.

i left medical school, middle of my class, and entered a 4-year categorical OB residency. i quickly knew that there was more to life than cervix checks, 3-per-week call (pre-ACGME work-hour requirements), and no weekends. after much soul-searching, i quit my residency, called a recruiter, and told him i wanted to be a Navy Flight surgeon. don't get me wrong, it was carefully planned, and i had considered the HPSP for years. i can honestly say that LEAVING the residency to do something "ou-of-the-box" was the smartest thing i've ever done in my life. i erroneously thought that not taking the scholarship would give me more flexibility with the navy, although perhaps it did, because i asked for a flight surgeon spot and got it. (if you sign on like i did, as a "direct commission," there is no loan payback program, unless you do a military residency, so you'll be stuck with your educational debt). every single other person in my flight surgeon class (about 25) was an HPSP scholarship recipient.

a quick rundown of what i got to do in the Navy:
i went to Newport, RI for OIS, then to flight surgery school in pensacola, FL.
i did a 2 year tour in Puerto Rico, then some time in texas with a jet-training squadron, then back to pensacola as the doc for the Navy Blue Angels.
finally, "stashed" for 6 months with Aviation Schools Command in pensacola. lots more flying-- got to fly in the new T-6 Texan II (a Pilatus PC-6 for you motorheads). then i entered residency, and left active duty.

i will forever feel that i was lucky, but i tell you truthfully that i got every set of orders i ever asked for. you must always remember that the needs of the navy will trump anything you want, so yes, you may get sent to a remote (austere) location where you cannot take your family. i thought the small chance was worth taking, and it was. the truth is, there's only a few really really remote billets, and even the people who go there say it was the best thing they've ever done.

i left the Navy after 6 1/2 years because i thought it was time to get back to the clinical side of life. being a flight surgeon is not the most "clinically-intensive" thing you will do as a doctor, but it is certainly the best opportunity to do something unique. when you apply for residency, you will have a tremendous advantage over your peer group, because you will have been in difficult situations, dealt with tough medical/admin issues, and solved complex problems. your "straight-out-of-internship" peers have not done these things. it isn't for everyone. it can be challenging, frustrating, and sometimes tiring. but it was NEVER boring. here's the short-list on some things i'm proud to say i've done:

-flown over a dozen different aircraft, from helicopters (4 different types) to jets.
-i've coordinated (and done) helicopter medevacs from a jungle, a bomb-range, a nuclear "boomer" submarine, from multiple ships of foreign registry (civilian and military)
-aircraft crash investigations
-i've flown faster than the speed of sound
-i've seen what 600+ knots looks like when you're just 50 feet above the ground
-i've been in an aircraft that climbed off the runway at 40,000 feet per minute (yes, it had rearview mirrors)
-i've been in a jet that's dropped bombs
-i got to chase a live anti-ship missile and watch it blow a ship apart
-most importantly, as a Blue Angel Flight Surgeon, i was lucky enough to represent the men and women who are overseas defending our freedom, and protecting our way of life.

i think these are mostly average Navy experiences for a flight surgeon (based on the fact that my buddies were doing the same kind of stuff)

the most important thing you get to do as a Navy Doc is not the medicine, you've got to see that. you become part of something larger than medicine, larger than yourself.

i personally believe that there are no "bad" billets in the Navy. i'd happily go overseas, because it is the only time in your life that you will get paid (and paid very well mind you) to live in a foreign country, experience the culture, meet the people, (and of course, fly over their houses), and learn that our way of life, although unique and special, is a very small part of an enormous world.

the best advice i give medical students when they ask me is this: do not listen to the people who tell you to "stay in the loop." your medical school advisor will tell you to do a research paper, apply to ivy-league residencies, etc. but the people who do those things will pale in comparison to you when you have been on a nuclear submarine, or removed wounded troops from a battlefield, or sat in the back of an F-18 and felt 7.5 g's in your lap. you will have life experience that makes you more well-rounded than all other residency applicants...

remember, success in medicine is not being board-certified. success in medicine is how you define yourself by what you've accomplished. it is the journey.

if you don't like flying, no worries. there are many many opportunities. it took me the first year of being in the navy just to see that there were hundreds of different things i could do. if you want to work with the SEALs, or you're interested in diving, be a Diving Medical Officer (DMO). you could be a General Medical Officer (GMO) and work with the Navy CBs (Construction Batallion). if you're interested in hospital management, Navy Medicine is a surefire way to give you early leadership experience.

finally, the military isn't for everyone. if you have ethical or moral issues that preclude you from what the military does, it's probably not for you. but what i want to stress here is that there is diversity, even in military life, and you are a tremendously important person as a doc.

i'm happy to offer whatever advice a washed-up flight-doc is worth. 🙂

i do not check this msg board, so please email me directly with specific questions.

just some thoughts from an average flight surgeon in the Navy...
[email protected] (please put SDN in the subject line so i know it's not spam)gary j mullen
Boston, MA

20 bucks says he's a recruiter.

 

[militarymd]

Jet,

I'll give 100 bucks saying this loser is a recruitier.

 

[R-Me-Doc]

here's the short-list on some things i'm proud to say i've done:

-flown over a dozen different aircraft, from helicopters (4 different types) to jets.
-i've coordinated (and done) helicopter medevacs from a jungle, a bomb-range, a nuclear "boomer" submarine, from multiple ships of foreign registry (civilian and military)
-aircraft crash investigations
-i've flown faster than the speed of sound
-i've seen what 600+ knots looks like when you're just 50 feet above the ground
-i've been in an aircraft that climbed off the runway at 40,000 feet per minute (yes, it had rearview mirrors)
-i've been in a jet that's dropped bombs
-i got to chase a live anti-ship missile and watch it blow a ship apart
-most importantly, as a Blue Angel Flight Surgeon, i was lucky enough to represent the men and women who are overseas defending our freedom, and protecting our way of life.

Look, here's some advice for everyone . . . if you're basically an adrenaline junkie and want to do all the hooah-hooah stuff, why bother with med school, residency and all that crap? Just join the "real" military and do all the "fun stuff" full time and let people who are truly motivated to be doctors do the doctoring.

This is from someone who "washed out" from a residency training program from which the vast majority of people finish.

MilMD, I think you are being a bit harsh. I bet there are lots of people who at some point thought about leaving or changing their residencies (I know I did). Actually, I applaud him for actually doing it. Anyone smart enough to get out of the hell of OBGYN get points in my book. HOWEVER .. . .

i left the Navy after 6 1/2 years because i thought it was time to get back to the clinical side of life.

And after not finishing a residency, what are you doing? Not many flight surgeon jobs in the civilian sector . . .

And I doubt he's a recruiter. Maybe a recruiter's wildest dream, but not one himself . . .

RMD LESS THAN 6 MONTHS TO GO!!! (5 months, 18 days!!!!)

 

[RichL025]

This is from someone who "washed out" from a residency training program from which the vast majority of people finish.

So what? He didn't want to finish it. Are you going to try and tell me (that in your VAST experience) you never met a doc who made a mistake?

I'll give 100 bucks saying this loser is a recruitier.

Pretty low. I mean, with all of YOUR stories, we never directly accused you of lying....

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Jet,

I'll give 100 bucks saying this loser is a recruitier.

I will assume for the present he is straight up.

That being said, it is definitely not within 2.5SD to choose to leave a civilian specialty training program, then sign on to a military program without obligations for payback and then delay training for what, another six and a half years.

If his story is as it says, he must have liked being a non-board-eligible GMO flight surgeon better than the alternative of a residency trained and board-certified physician. I think that is a shame, but accidents of fate and unforseen dislike of earlier choices of career can propel even good professionals to leave programs even very near completion. Unless this is given only as an example of the opportunity one can make of flight surgery for someone similarly situated, and similarly lucky, then the significance ends there.

I don't think the writer is a "loser", but I also would never hold out his career path as an example of one that a prospective military physician should seek or prefer. That much time out of the training cycle puts you out of step with your medical school cohort and your internship/ GMO class cohort and I think makes the transition back to training all the more difficult. Unless you are a real-life Doogie Howser at the start and have a long career expectancy, it just doesn't seem like good planning. All the same, I wish him well.

To the uninitiated reader, I would be quick to remind that there is a singularity of FS billets with the Blue Angels, and getting that billet is a stroke of good fortune even for the very deserving. I would never let a recruiter sell me on the job with that.

 

[MoosePilot]

Jet,

I'll give 100 bucks saying this loser is a recruitier.

If so, he at least did some homework.

http://www.blueangels.org/Being/BUFFALO/BUFFALO.htm

http://www.blueangels.org/Years/2004/Officer/S2Mulle.htm

http://www.pulsejournal.com/life/content/features/stories/2005/05/19/pj0505angel.html

I'd guess he's on the up and up, although that list of accomplishments is pretty amazing. A live anti-ship missile test has to be pretty rare.

 

[RichL025]

I will assume for the present he is straight up.

That being said, it is definitely not within 2.5SD to choose to leave a civilian specialty training program, then sign on to a military program without obligations for payback and then delay training for what, another six and a half years ...

I don't think the writer is a "loser", but I also would never hold out his career path as an example of one that a prospective military physician should seek or prefer. That much time out of the training cycle puts you out of step with your medical school cohort and your internship/ GMO class cohort and I think makes the transition back to training all the more difficult. ....

Excellent point -

"Kids, don't try this at home!"... or maybe "your mileage may differ..."

 

[IgD]

Apparently this was the posters first message in the forum. He is greeted by insults and harassment. Regardless of where you stand this behavior is appalling. Where are the moderators?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Apparently this was the posters first message in the forum. He is greeted by insults and harassment. Regardless of where you stand this behavior is appalling. Where are the moderators?

I am sure he's big enough to take care of himself. Some boards are like going into a bar, what it's like depends on who is there.

 

[Mirror Form]

Jet,

I'll give 100 bucks saying this loser is a recruitier.

Who knows, there actually are a lot of people in the mlitary who like their time spent as gmo's (although there are also a lot who hate it).

 

[island doc]

I vehemently disagree with the statement that "success in medicine is not being board-certified". It is foolish to even think such a thing. I wonder what the ABMS would say to this.

I read this lengthy discourse, and this one statement, in my opinion, casts a long shadow on it's credibility.

 

[RichL025]

I vehemently disagree with the statement that "success in medicine is not being board-certified". It is foolish to even think such a thing.

I read this lengthy discourse, and this one statement, in my opinion, casts a long shadow on it's credibility.

Well, I think you can read it in one of two ways...

1. You are successful if you are not board certified

-or-

2. You can be "successful" without being board-certified.

Upon re-reading it, I think he meant number 2, although I agree it was poorly worded. While I personally think it would be an unwise choice, many, many GMOs have had long, happy, successful careers in the military. Of course, they can't find a decent job when they get out, but that's a different point.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I vehemently disagree with the statement that "success in medicine is not being board-certified". It is foolish to even think such a thing. I wonder what the ABMS would say to this.

I read this lengthy discourse, and this one statement, in my opinion, casts a long shadow on it's credibility.

I have to disagree with his selling of the excitement of being a flight surgeon, as if it were a trip to Epcot. Sure, you can do lots of interesting things on a FS tour, but treating that as a reasonable alternative to training in a real medical discipline, something a person committed to being a doctor should want to do, only makes me wonder just how much the OP really wants to be a doctor. A well-adjusted junior resident should not feel so burned-out that he would take a six-year break from training, even if he decides to change fields.

Let him get board certified before he can wax philosophical about the relative pleasures of the journey and where being board certified fits into that. No, it may not be every thing that you have imagined it would be, and it sure isn't the end of your learning. But it is a very important milestone in your professional path, and everyone in this business ought to be thinking of how to get there.

 

[USAFdoc]

Apparently this was the posters first message in the forum. He is greeted by insults and harassment. Regardless of where you stand this behavior is appalling. Where are the moderators?

For the first time, I might agree with something IgD said; although his posting of what a "true professional is" is not much different in some regards.

 

[militarymd]

Well, I think you can read it in one of two ways...

1. You are successful if you are not board certified

-or-

2. You can be "successful" without being board-certified.

Upon re-reading it, I think he meant number 2, although I agree it was poorly worded. While I personally think it would be an unwise choice, many, many GMOs have had long, happy, successful careers in the military. Of course, they can't find a decent job when they get out, but that's a different point.

In my 13 years of medicine (17 if you count medical school), I've changed my opinion about Board certification.

I started out in medical school thinking that it is important. As a resident, I met folks who I thought were competent but just could not pass their boards, so I the importance of BC go down on my list of things I look for in successful MDs.

Now, that I've been in practice for 8 years plus (and learning more everyday) and interacting more and mroe with NON-BC folks.....I realize that BC is there for a reason.....

Don't let the people who can't get BC convince you otherwise.....loser is a harsh term, but between "winner" or "loser".....they fall under the loser category.

 

[militarymd]

If so, he at least did some homework.

http://www.blueangels.org/Being/BUFFALO/BUFFALO.htm

http://www.blueangels.org/Years/2004/Officer/S2Mulle.htm

http://www.pulsejournal.com/life/content/features/stories/2005/05/19/pj0505angel.html

I'd guess he's on the up and up, although that list of accomplishments is pretty amazing. A live anti-ship missile test has to be pretty rare.

Moose,

You're letting the "JAG" stuff fool you. I'm talking about being a doctor....not about being a "medical officer".

You'll learn the difference as you go through medical school and training.

 

[snman31]

I'm an HPSP medical student, and have read most of the posts on this forum for a few years now, but the response to this OP gave me the greatest insight thus far into the character of the forum.

It's dismaying that a difference of opinion or experience qualifies someone as a "loser" or immediately causes them to be dismissed as a "recruiter." While I agree that his experiences may not represent a typical GMO experience expressed on these forums, why not conclude that, as is true with most of life, opportunities exist for the motivated and fortunate (with the relative importance of each the subject of the debate, rather than the value of the experience itself).

To say that taking time off from a training pipeline will lead to bad medical care, or to being a bad doctor is a gross generalization. Many civilian med students and physicians take time off between college and medical school, during medical school, or before or after thier internships. These people spend time abroad, pursuing research and advanced degrees, or developing other parts of thier personalities that contribute to thier growth as a person, and this time for broader development has value. Is there something sacred about the transition from intern to resident that makes a few years out have such a greater impact? While I agree it may be initially harder to get back into the routine of residency after time as a GMO, I can't imagine it would be difficult for more than the first few months of a 3-5 year residency program. It is only if we accept that one's worth as a person and as a doctor is soley related to thier highest level of medical training achieved that we can categorically dismiss such time away from the standard pipeline as worthless. Having contacted the OP, I know he is in a very competitive residency program in Boston, so at least for him the experience added value.

While I've appreciated very much the contributions to this forum, and value the opinions of those who have gone before, the acrimony with which this poster was greeted without cause has led me to question the objectivity of the information presented. Ironically, while the OPs message did not sway me to reconsider my decision to avoid a GMO tour, the response to it caused me to reconsider the data I used to arrive at that decision in the first place.

I look forward to continuing to learn from most of the posters on this forum, and hope we can foster civil, credible discussion. Remember that while it may be true that "Some boards are like going into a bar, what it's like depends on who is there," don't be surprised if your overly acerbic opinion eventually is dismissed as that of no more than an angry drunk with too much time on his hands.

 

[militarymd]

To say that taking time off from a training pipeline will lead to bad medical care, or to being a bad doctor is a gross generalization..

Just an opinion formed from many years in medicine interacting with hundreds of doctors (few of them bad) in many medical environments (military and civilian), teaching many medical students (straight arrows and bent/military and civilian), training many residents (straight arrows and bet/military and civilian)....

I just tell like I see it....Many people want things to be a certain way...and tell it like they want it.....not like it is..

If you don't like it....block me.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Edit deleted

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I'm an HPSP medical student . . . Remember that while it may be true that "Some boards are like going into a bar, what it's like depends on who is there," don't be surprised if your overly acerbic opinion eventually is dismissed as that of no more than an angry drunk with too much time on his hands.

You are kind of preachy for a med student, aren't you?

As the poster who used the barroom analogy to reply to another poster (who took umbrage to the tone of yet another poster's comment), your suggestion is off-base and inappropriate. My opinion, while critical is certainly not acerbic, if you read it carefully. And the tone of some other posters, while perhaps not the most polite, does not stoop to defamation or other unacceptable levels for which the forum moderators might need to take action.

I am very critical of the Navy's overselling GMO/FS duty and presenting it as a nonstop amusement ride. The poster above worked for the Blue Angels. That is the Navy's version of Cirque du Soleil, it is a high-visibility demonstration and promotional unit whose purpose is public relations and recruitment. His message here is along the same lines. While that is great for him, I think a little reality ought to be part of the picture. The OP worked 6.5 years after finishing his internship to resume his training. That might have been OK by him, but I don't happen to think that is a very good idea. And by saying "oh by the way I got a residency at MGH/BI after my duty tour" really doesn't justify that kind of tasking, either. Good for him that he got a nice residency. Not good for HPSP recipients generally or for Navy medicine, no matter what the advertisers say.

 

[mitchconnie]

The OP does sound exactly like a recruiting poster, but it is an excellent illustration of exactly who might be happy in military medicine and SHOULD join.

First, the military is good for doctors who are interested in jobs that are minimally challenging/interesting from a medical standpoint, but uniquely interesting in other ways. I mean, how much medical care do the Blue Angels really need?--I can’t imagine there are a healthier eight guys anywhere on the planet. But if you want to hang around with pilots and fly all over the world (sort of a Blue Angels groupie), then flight surgery would be a perfect job.

Second, the military is perfect for you if you fall off the normal training/career track and need some time to re-organize while still getting a paycheck. Deciding you don’t like your specialty mid-residency (or getting kicked out) is not that unusual and taking a couple years to regroup while collecting a decent paycheck seems reasonable. Similarly, physicians who unexpectedly lose their civilian jobs for whatever reason—fired by an HMO, malpractice problems, falling out with a senior partner in a big group, etc.—can take some time off from real clinical work and re-think their next move.

Lastly, the military can be very good to you from an assignment standpoint if you have NO OBLIGATION whatsoever. The OP came in with no HPSP or USUHS obligation and had TREMENDOUS leverage to negotiate for the assignment he wants. He can say, “I want X assignment in X location or I’m not joining.” Then each time he is ready to move to a different assignment, he can say exactly the same thing. The average HPSP guy with four years of commitment who got stuck in a GMO job after not matching into residency will not be assigned to the Air Force Thunderbirds. He will be assigned to Minot AFB in North Dakota.

I have seen a lot of people in the above categories who love the military. Personally, I get more of a charge out of opening the abdomen and cross-clamping the aorta than riding in the back of military aircraft. But there are a lot of people who don’t like dealing with genuinely sick patients or who love admin. If that’s you, than the GMO/flight surgery route is definitely a reasonable career option

 

[snman31]

Orbit: I certainly didn't mean to imply that your comment was off-base. In fact, I agree with your post that GMO experiences should not be "sold" without an honest account of how they represent the general experience. However, your previous analogy of the bar seemed to me to support a sentiment that I believe is counter-productive to the reception of your information. When it is ok for posters experiences to be summarily dismissed without investigation just because "he's big enough to take care of himself," or "what it's like depends on who's there", it makes it easier to disregard the dismisser as non-objective and bitter, thus ending any dialog that could have occured. Likewise MilMDs statements of, "If you don't like it, block me" carry a tone that does not invite discussion, but rather a take-it or leave-it approach to what has been said. I think that MilMD has much to offer, but I also think that his information would be greater accepted by the average reader were it not accompanied by the quick and dismissive value judgements represented by "this loser is a recruitier"-type comments.

I am not being "preachy," rather it is because I feel this forum is crucial to the dissemination of information about military medicine therefore making it so important to be aware of how the tone of our dialog may impede readers' reception of that information.

 

[militarymd]

I am not being "preachy," rather it is because I feel this forum is crucial to the dissemination of information about military medicine therefore making it so important to be aware of how the tone of our dialog may impede readers' reception of that information.

You're right, but I can't help myself when these guys come here saying how great military medicine is.....guys who ARE NOT real doctors...guys who for whatever reason left civilian medicine to join a broken down system and are happy about....

Guys who get a thrill out of NOT practicing medicine........

All you readers have to ask yourself.....Do you want to be a doctor???? or do you want to be a "medical officer".

 

[MoosePilot]

Moose,

You're letting the "JAG" stuff fool you. I'm talking about being a doctor....not about being a "medical officer".

You'll learn the difference as you go through medical school and training.

Very likely, which is why I won't make any real decisions (more than I already have) until I've gotten at least a little experience and knowledge during rotation to base it on.

The only thing is that this one guy had a good time for the years he was in. He said why he had a good time. He also made the decision to leave when he wanted to continue his training and said why. I think his is as valid a view as anyone's and pre-med/med students are generally intelligent enough to see how his personality and assignments led to his happiness.

 

[snman31]

Even if we take it as given that a GMO is not a "real doctor" in the terms of the traditional pipeline, is the choice still binary? Rather than all readers asking themselves if they want to be "doctors" or "medical officers," would it be fairer to ask if they would be comfortable being one for a few years and then the other?

I only ask because, as previous posters suggest, unless the experience is totally devoid of value or significantly detracts from the long-term efficacy of a physicians eventual practice, perhaps it's not a bad option for those who are fine with time out and wish to broaden thier life experiences before commiting to a specialty.

That said, this "good for some, not for others" message is not the one that I believe most recuiters give, thus making it all the more important to refine and examine our views in forums like this.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Even if we take it as given that a GMO is not a "real doctor" in the terms of the traditional pipeline, is the choice still binary? Rather than all readers asking themselves if they want to be "doctors" or "medical officers," would it be fairer to ask if they would be comfortable being one for a few years and then the other?

I only ask because, as previous posters suggest, unless the experience is totally devoid of value or significantly detracts from the long-term efficacy of a physicians eventual practice, perhaps it's not a bad option for those who are fine with time out and wish to broaden their life experiences before commiting to a specialty.

That said, this "good for some, not for others" message is not the one that I believe most recuiters give, thus making it all the more important to refine and examine our views in forums like this.

It isn't just because the physician's interests are compromised--they are-- despite the military recruitment message of how exciting GMO-type assignment can be. The services are tasking incompletely-trained physicians in ways that compel those physicians to work beyond their training and competence. This is in no way meant to disparage Navy or other military GMOs, either. The services have historically drawn from a very talented, resourceful and motivated pool of trainees. But by placing doctors in settings where they are required to work as primary care and ER physicians--and many are---without senior staff available in many cases for consultation and where specialty support is nonexistent or poor, they are professionally hazarding these doctors (who can't quit their jobs because of professionally unacceptable conditions) and indirectly they are hazarding their patients. I think that is inexcusable, particularly when there are better alternatives. Sure, those alternatives probably will cost the services more than doing business as they now do, but some improvements cost money.
They can afford it.

It is professionally unacceptable to task a second-year or even third-year resident to practice without the close supervision of a senior resident and an attending, in any field. A program would be disciplined by the ACGME and the relevant specialty board if it did that, and it could even be shut down if the deficiency wasn't corrected. Why then is it somehow professionally acceptable for the Navy to task a physician who has even less training than a PGY-2 in a way that he works with less supervision? Because they can get away with it? I think that reckless indifference to the point of being criminal.

 

[jetproppilot]

Apparently this was the posters first message in the forum. He is greeted by insults and harassment. Regardless of where you stand this behavior is appalling. Where are the moderators?

So its OK for the military to do intensive studies on the interests and motivators of young people in order to be able to clandestinely target them, in the interest of increased-recruiting, through well selected recruiters who can relate to said young people, brawny slogans (BE ALL YOU WANNA BE), and mass media marketing showing the (alleged) glamour of military life,

but its not ok to react to this ulterior motive when you figure out what they are selling is not as good as they initially told you?

I'm a pilot. I'm envious of the dude's story.

But you have to admit that posts like his, placed in very strategic areas (SDN, visited by many young, impressionable people looking for direction) by a military dude who had a Cinderella-story career, by a dude that never posts here,

IS VERY PROPEGANDA LIKE.

Read the twenty other threads discussing the plethora of military medicine's problems with discusiions involving doctors that are actually practicing medicine iin the military, then read this post by a dude that never posts here, and self admittedly wont post here again.

Looks like a BE ALL YOU WANNA BE commercial to me. But hey, maybe I'm cynical.

Where are the moderators. Gimme a break. Where are the moderators moderating the military recruiters?

 

[Monty Python]

......Where are the moderators moderating the military recruiters?

Also recall that recruiters' annual evaluation is based 99.9% on their recruiting end results. To loosely quote Lou Gossette (Sgt. Foley ) from "An Officer and a Gentleman": "I will use whatever means possible, both legal and illegal, to trip you up ....." Well, recruiters can be accused of doing likewise to meet quota.

 

[jetproppilot]

Also recall that recruiters' annual evaluation is based 99.9% on their recruiting end results. To loosely quote Lou Gossette (Sgt. Foley ) from "An Officer and a Gentleman": "I will use whatever means possible, both legal and illegal, to trip you up ....." Well, recruiters can be accused of doing likewise to meet quota.

IgD! Lets hear it, Slim! You accused the forum of some pretty nasty things, calling for moderators to intervene. And yet you are silent after irrevocable replies explaining the responses. Come out of your unrealistic shell and admit you fired across the bow prematurely.

 

[BOHICA-FIGMO]

You are kind of preachy for a med student, aren't you?

As the poster who used the barroom analogy to reply to another poster (who took umbrage to the tone of yet another poster's comment), your suggestion is off-base and inappropriate. My opinion, while critical is certainly not acerbic, if you read it carefully. And the tone of some other posters, while perhaps not the most polite, does not stoop to defamation or other unacceptable levels for which the forum moderators might need to take action.

I am very critical of the Navy's overselling GMO/FS duty and presenting it as a nonstop amusement ride. The poster above worked for the Blue Angels. That is the Navy's version of Cirque du Soleil, it is a high-visibility demonstration and promotional unit whose purpose is public relations and recruitment. His message here is along the same lines. While that is great for him, I think a little reality ought to be part of the picture. The OP worked 6.5 years after finishing his internship to resume his training. That might have been OK by him, but I don't happen to think that is a very good idea. And by saying "oh by the way I got a residency at MGH/BI after my duty tour" really doesn't justify that kind of tasking, either. Good for him that he got a nice residency. Not good for HPSP recipients generally or for Navy medicine, no matter what the advertisers say.

I've got to back up orbitsurgMD here. He/she is one of the more balanced voices in this forum.

 

[IgD]

IgD! Lets hear it, Slim! You accused the forum of some pretty nasty things, calling for moderators to intervene. And yet you are silent after irrevocable replies explaining the responses. Come out of your unrealistic shell and admit you fired across the bow prematurely.

I think the posts and the behaviors of their authors speak for themselves. I will leave it to the reader to draw his or her own conclusions. I think it is possible that recruiters post to this forum. However, recruiters would have an uphill battle because my experience is they lack intimate first hand knowledge of the medical corps. In this case the original poster demonstrated knowledge that I felt a recruiter would not have.

As for this forum, I question the validity of the content and the motives behind the posters. Like most forums, there is a usage policy with rules against being rude, harassment, spamming and trolling. Yet again and again we see repeated anti-military posts violating all 4 rules.

Just like anything in life there is good and bad aspects to military medicine. Some people serve their obligation and get out and I respect that. Others decide to make a career out of it and that's okay too. I'm in favor of having a balanced discussion.

 

[jetproppilot]

I think the posts and the behaviors of their authors speak for themselves. I will leave it to the reader to draw his or her own conclusions. I think it is possible that recruiters post to this forum. However, recruiters would have an uphill battle because my experience is they lack intimate first hand knowledge of the medical corps. In this case the original poster demonstrated knowledge that I felt a recruiter would not have.

As for this forum, I question the validity of the content and the motives behind the posters. Like most forums, there is a usage policy with rules against being rude, harassment, spamming and trolling. Yet again and again we see repeated anti-military posts violating all 4 rules.

Just like anything in life there is good and bad aspects to military medicine. Some people serve their obligation and get out and I respect that. Others decide to make a career out of it and that's okay too. I'm in favor of having a balanced discussion.

Balanced discussion?

I'm a 41 year old board-certified anesthesiologist. I'm financially secure secondary to living where most people wouldnt for the last eight years.

During my first year of med school at U of Miami (1988), I had a franchise player airforce recruitor on my heels, trying any angle he could to get me to sign on the dotted line. He knew I was from an airline family. He knew my dad was a stud pilot who flew 747s across the globe. He knew my weakness, i.e. tell Bill you can fly jets in the military, despite your visual weaknesses (astigmatism).

Dude was trying to entice me into a position I couldnt physiologically fulfill, no matter what my IQ was. But he denied telling me that.

Call it fate, alertness, or good fortune, I didnt follow the recruiter's path, no matter how much I wanted to.... (making my 747 captain Dad proud, etc),

Point being,

recruitors don't give a s hit about you.

What they care about is their own recruiting numbers.

And as long as all the very impressionable youth that read these forums appreciate that,

we're on a level playing field.

But if propeganda filled posts are influencing your decision to enlist,

The We Have A problem.

 

[jetproppilot]

Balanced discussion?

I'm a 41 year old board-certified anesthesiologist. I'm financially secure secondary to living where most people wouldnt for the last eight years.

During my first year of med school at U of Miami (1988), I had a franchise player airforce recruitor on my heels, trying any angle he could to get me to sign on the dotted line. He knew I was from an airline family. He knew my dad was a stud pilot who flew 747s across the globe. He knew my weakness, i.e. tell Bill you can fly jets in the military, despite your visual weaknesses (astigmatism).

Dude was trying to entice me into a position I couldnt physiologically fulfill, no matter what my IQ was. But he denied telling me that.

Call it fate, alertness, or good fortune, I didnt follow the recruiter's path, no matter how much I wanted to.... (making my 747 captain Dad proud, etc),

Point being,

recruitors don't give a s hit about you.

What they care about is their own recruiting numbers.

And as long as all the very impressionable youth that read these forums appreciate that,

we're on a level playing field.

But if propeganda filled posts are influencing your decision to enlist,

The We Have A problem.

Sorry for the typo...

THEN WE HAVE A PROBLEM.

 

[MoosePilot]

But if propeganda filled posts are influencing your decision to enlist

The We Have A problem.

Does the size help somehow?

First, nothing here should prompt anyone to enlist. Commissioning is a separate way of entering the military. There has and likely always will be a huge difference between the acts and more importantly between the people. Someone in the position to be commissioned is old enough and intelligent enough to take responsibility for themselves. The military convinced me to go to pilot training when I had intended to go to medical school. It was still my decision. I was neither young enough nor dumb enough to be able to blame others. It has also worked out well.

Second, can a factual post be propaganda? If so, then all the anti-military posters are also posting propaganda... only it's anti-military medical propaganda. Folks need to be able to relate their experiences. Why is everyone getting all dramatic? He did some cool stuff. Other people have had some negative experiences. People need to realize the military can offer some cool experiences, has some drawbacks, and a decision to enter needs to take all of it into account.

People, please can the drama. It's like I'm hanging out with a bunch of girls that want to wear their tutus around.

 

[jetproppilot]

Does the size help somehow?

First, nothing here should prompt anyone to enlist. Commissioning is a separate way of entering the military. There has and likely always will be a huge difference between the acts and more importantly between the people. Someone in the position to be commissioned is old enough and intelligent enough to take responsibility for themselves. The military convinced me to go to pilot training when I had intended to go to medical school. It was still my decision. I was neither young enough nor dumb enough to be able to blame others. It has also worked out well.

Second, can a factual post be propaganda? If so, then all the anti-military posters are also posting propaganda... only it's anti-military medical propaganda. Folks need to be able to relate their experiences. Why is everyone getting all dramatic? He did some cool stuff. Other people have had some negative experiences. People need to realize the military can offer some cool experiences, has some drawbacks, and a decision to enter needs to take all of it into account.

People, please can the drama. It's like I'm hanging out with a bunch of girls that want to wear their tutus around.

Very well said by a seasoned military pilot, accepted to med school.

So heres a Devil's Advocate reply.

Dude, I'm a seasoned physician. I've also experienced the exstacies of flight, something you've probably forgotten since flight is what you do for a living. I've seen it. My flights are something I do for myself. Your flights are something you do because thats what you do for a living.

You are the MAN here, and I'm a civilian chump who gets his rocks off doing one tenth of the flying you do on a regular basis. My knuckle-wrenched VOR approaches in a turboprop, I'm sure, are elementary to you.

That being said, say I'm an impressionable young dude who just earned their MD degree.

Do you think its fair for me to read a post like the Blue Angels Flight Surgeon dude, and base my future military aspirations on said post?

 

[jetproppilot]

I think the posts and the behaviors of their authors speak for themselves. I will leave it to the reader to draw his or her own conclusions. I think it is possible that recruiters post to this forum. However, recruiters would have an uphill battle because my experience is they lack intimate first hand knowledge of the medical corps. In this case the original poster demonstrated knowledge that I felt a recruiter would not have.

As for this forum, I question the validity of the content and the motives behind the posters. Like most forums, there is a usage policy with rules against being rude, harassment, spamming and trolling. Yet again and again we see repeated anti-military posts violating all 4 rules.

Just like anything in life there is good and bad aspects to military medicine. Some people serve their obligation and get out and I respect that. Others decide to make a career out of it and that's okay too. I'm in favor of having a balanced discussion.

Your opinion is noted and respected.

By the way, where are you in your training? With such strong opinions, you must be a PGY 3 or so in the military milleau.

So where are you in your training?

 

[jetproppilot]

Your opinion is noted and respected.

By the way, where are you in your training? With such strong opinions, you must be a PGY 3 or so in the military milleau.

So where are you in your training?

.

 

[MoosePilot]

Very well said by a seasoned military pilot, accepted to med school.

So heres a Devil's Advocate reply.

Dude, I'm a seasoned physician. I've also experienced the exstacies of flight, something you've probably forgotten since flight is what you do for a living. I've seen it. My flights are something I do for myself. Your flights are something you do because thats what you do for a living.

You are the MAN here, and I'm a civilian chump who gets his rocks off doing one tenth of the flying you do on a regular basis. My knuckle-wrenched VOR approaches in a turboprop, I'm sure, are elementary to you.

That being said, say I'm an impressionable young dude who just earned their MD degree.

Do you think its fair for me to read a post like the Blue Angels Flight Surgeon dude, and base my future military aspirations on said post?

Yes, I do, because you're an adult man. I believe you can make a good choice. I don't like it that the military commits people for so long. 10 years for flying is much, much too long. I don't know if anyone can make an informed choice with those stakes, but it's not much different from marriage, really.

If you ever want to hear the downside of military aviation, PM me. I'll talk you out of it, like I'm trying to do to the 2Lt in my office.

 

[jetproppilot]

Yes, I do, because you're an adult man. I believe you can make a good choice. I don't like it that the military commits people for so long. 10 years for flying is much, much too long. I don't know if anyone can make an informed choice with those stakes, but it's not much different from marriage, really.

If you ever want to hear the downside of military aviation, PM me. I'll talk you out of it, like I'm trying to do to the 2Lt in my office.

Moose, you've seemingly contradicted yourself.

So you endorse Mr Young MD enlisting into the military because he's fallen prey to the propeganda, but you're gonna try and talk him out of it?

 

[MoosePilot]

Moose, you've seemingly contradicted yourself.

So you endorse Mr Young MD enlisting into the military because he's fallen prey to the propeganda, but you're gonna try and talk him out of it?

No, I'm not conveying my point.

It's almost impossible to really understand all of the ramifications of a 10 year commitment in anything, especially anything with a whole bunch of movies, tv, etc about it. In that sense everything is propaganda.

I believe you can make your own choice. It doesn't mean I won't try to talk you out of it. I don't make it a public service, just on an individual basis.

I endorse people having the ability in general and the responsibility to choose. Any true information is good, but they need to be sure to get a good sample. They need to get a good sample, not we need to carefully police the thread such that only the viewpoint we feel they can handle is present in case they should be adversely influenced by someone else's opinion. That's putting ourselves in a position far superior to someone that's just a matter of years behind us.

For instance, on aviation I'm something of an expert (although there are no doubt those here who have more expertise). If things had been different and my 1996 medical school application had been successful, I'd most likely be an attending now. Then I'd be a minor expert in medicine, but as it is, I'm not even a student of medicine yet. You, on the other hand, are something of an expert. Roles are mutable. Experience in one field carries some unknown applicability to general life competence.

Have you ever read the story of the duel between the master of the tea ceremony and the sword master? It has bearing on what I'm trying to express.

 

[jetproppilot]

No, I'm not conveying my point.

It's almost impossible to really understand all of the ramifications of a 10 year commitment in anything, especially anything with a whole bunch of movies, tv, etc about it. In that sense everything is propaganda.

I believe you can make your own choice. It doesn't mean I won't try to talk you out of it. I don't make it a public service, just on an individual basis.

I endorse people having the ability in general and the responsibility to choose. Any true information is good, but they need to be sure to get a good sample. They need to get a good sample, not we need to carefully police the thread such that only the viewpoint we feel they can handle is present in case they should be adversely influenced by someone else's opinion. That's putting ourselves in a position far superior to someone that's just a matter of years behind us.

For instance, on aviation I'm something of an expert (although there are no doubt those here who have more expertise). If things had been different and my 1996 medical school application had been successful, I'd most likely be an attending now. Then I'd be a minor expert in medicine, but as it is, I'm not even a student of medicine yet. You, on the other hand, are something of an expert. Roles are mutable. Experience in one field carries some unknown applicability to general life competence.

Have you ever read the story of the duel between the master of the tea ceremony and the sword master? It has bearing on what I'm trying to express.

Well put.

But lets cut through the chase.

Lets say you're me, circa 1992. Just graduated from U of Miami with the big MD degree. Flying family, flying aspirations, flying everything. Air Force/Marines/Navy recruiters are biting at your astigmitism heels, promising you Sadeem Husain's wife. Your dad, 747 stud driver, deters you from the propeganda.

Its 1992. The airline industry is in shambles. Pilots with 30 years seniority with Pan Am have just been told they're gonna have to serve food at Picadilli.

You wanna enlist so you can drive an F-16 inverted over St Louis, just like the recruiters told you you can.

What now?

 

[jetproppilot]

Well put.

But lets cut through the chase.

Lets say you're me, circa 1992. Just graduated from U of Miami with the big MD degree. Flying family, flying aspirations, flying everything. Air Force/Marines/Navy recruiters are biting at your astigmitism heels, promising you Sadeem Husain's wife. Your dad, 747 stud driver, deters you from the propeganda.

Its 1992. The airline industry is in shambles. Pilots with 30 years seniority with Pan Am have just been told they're gonna have to serve food at Picadilli.

You wanna enlist so you can drive an F-16 inverted over St Louis, just like the recruiters told you you can.

What now?

ASIDE:

This conversation is self limiting, in that it shows that

if you invest in yourself, noone can limit you.

the unfortunate 747 Pan Am pilot in 1990 was totally dependent on his company. If the company fails, he fails, and he's back to square one, competing with 1000 TT pilots for Freight Dog jobs.

Now turn to being a doctor, with an MD/DO degree.

No matter what happens in the industry, you are self supporting. You'll be able to find a 100-150/$/hr job.

Invest in thyself, not in thy's company.

 

[jetproppilot]

Does the size help somehow?

YES.

 

[pgg]

This is from someone who "washed out" from a residency training program from which the vast majority of people finish.

20 bucks says he's a recruiter.

Wow.

As anyone who's read my posts knows, I'm a USUHS grad in the midst of my 2nd deployment as a Marine GMO, where I've been basically content, but I'm very very happy to be finally resuming GME (anesthesia) in July. (I have thoroughly enjoyed my time with the Marines, but I have no delusions that 3 years of sprained ankles & URIs between my PGY1 and PGY2 years has been "good" for me in a professional/medical sense.) I'm acutely aware of the problems military medicine is facing (ie, ignoring), and I tend to think that GMO duty is overall a bad use of an intern. I recognize that I'm part of the forum minority that is generally positive about being a doctor in the military, and acknowlege that as a GMO I lack the experience and perspective that current & former military physicians like jetproppilot and militarymd have.

That said, these responses to an enthusiastic post strike me as inappropriate. They add nothing of substance to the discussion - merely an unprovoked and immediate attack on someone who's relating an experience that differs from their own.

I'm starting to think there's something pathologically dysfunctional about your obsession with this topic. I respect your opinions and agree with much of what you both have to say about military medicine - more than I disagree with you, actually.

If you want to state that his experiences as a flight surgeon with the Blue Angels is far from typical, or argue that a 6.5 year voluntary (wtf?) break from training is nothing short of a professional disaster, fine, but opening up with a pair of attacks like this is just wrong.

 

[jetproppilot]

Wow.

As anyone who's read my posts knows, I'm a USUHS grad in the midst of my 2nd deployment as a Marine GMO, where I've been basically content, but I'm very very happy to be finally resuming GME (anesthesia) in July. (I have thoroughly enjoyed my time with the Marines, but I have no delusions that 3 years of sprained ankles & URIs between my PGY1 and PGY2 years has been "good" for me in a professional/medical sense.) I'm acutely aware of the problems military medicine is facing (ie, ignoring), and I tend to think that GMO duty is overall a bad use of an intern. I recognize that I'm part of the forum minority that is generally positive about being a doctor in the military, and acknowlege that as a GMO I lack the experience and perspective that current & former military physicians like jetproppilot and militarymd have.

That said, these responses to an enthusiastic post strike me as inappropriate. They add nothing of substance to the discussion - merely an unprovoked and immediate attack on someone who's relating an experience that differs from their own.

I'm starting to think there's something pathologically dysfunctional about your obsession with this topic. I respect your opinions and agree with much of what you both have to say about military medicine - more than I disagree with you, actually.

If you want to state that his experiences as a flight surgeon with the Blue Angels is far from typical, or argue that a 6.5 year voluntary (wtf?) break from training is nothing short of a professional disaster, fine, but opening up with a pair of attacks like this is just wrong.

No attack intended.

Just needed to point out the fact that taking a diamond in the ruff's experience, and portraying it as what is actually obtainable, is just wrong, as you so eloquently put it.

Again, I laud the dude for his accomplishments. But his portrayal is propeganda like.

Hey, I'm a private practice anesthesiologist, I (like) my job, I make more bank than most MDs, I've been able to pay off my debt and secure my future because of my professional decisions, I enjoy the cerebral cases I encounter, I'm respected by the nurses/OR staff/OB unit, but I dont come onto SDN saying anesthesia is the bomb, you can retire at 50 (which I will), and bore you with other propeganda-like bursts of my professional timeline....

there are pitfalls to my career choice...namely night call and the tolls it takes on myself and my family...if I were to laud the positives of my career choice without filling you in on the (BIG) negatives of same, I'd be guilty of propeganda pushing.

HEY MED STUDENTS! I MAKE AS MUCH AS AN NFL LOW ROUND DRAFT CHOICE!

but I'll leave out the part about being a zombie for 48 hours after the kick-ass night shift, so my specialty will sound like a cakewalk.

Capeesh?

 

[pgg]

No attack intended.

Sorry, I just don't believe that. You're being disingenuous. Responding with a sarcastic one-line accusation that he's a liar is an attack. You're implying that everything he said should be ignored because such a positive story must be the fabrication of a recruiter.

What's next? Are you going to accuse me of being a subversive liar and dishonest recruiter because I've said my time as a Marine GMO has been great?

Then there was militarymd's initial contribution, which amounted to "this guy's too stupid to be taken seriously."

But his portrayal is propeganda like.

I don't disagree. But there's a difference between posting words to the effect of "Your experience is not typical / glad it worked out for you, but the overwhelming majority of GMOs don't get to do things like that / 6.5 years out of training is a bad thing / etc etc" ... instead of the "Liar liar pants on fire" response you actually did post.

[...]

Capeesh?

I understand your position, quite well.

As a soon-to-be anesthesia resident, I read - with great interest - everything you and the other been-there-done-that attendings on the anesthesia forum post. It just strikes me as odd that the same guys who post with such professionalism and insight on the Anesthesia GME forum click over to the Military Medicine forum and light up a thread from a new poster with a pair of attacks.

It suggests that your disdain for military medicine is not wholly rational.

 

[Monty Python]

...... recruiters would have an uphill battle because my experience is they lack intimate first hand knowledge of the medical corps. .

I would respectfully disagree with that comment.

I'm an accepted med student, starting in August. I'm being deluged with phone calls, letters, emails, etc, from HPSP recruiters from Army, USAF, and USN.

I'm also a drilling reserve O-4 with 17 years credit. In addition I have the insider's knowledge coming from five years additional duty as a Navy Professional Schools Liaison Officer, working as middleman/mother-hen between non-prior service medical students on HPSP and the bureaucracy. I attend periodic meetings and teleconferences with the SG, recruiting command, and fellow PSLOs.

Out of courtesy, I've returned several phone calls and have spoken directly with the O-3 officers who are the actual medical recruiters. That's all they do - they have no other recruiting duties other than signing up medical officers.

Bottom line: the officer medical recruiters (not their yeomen, admin clerks, or switchboard operators) do know the details, the nitty-gritty, and the inner-workings, at least the Navy ones.

 

[island doc]

I guess we all end up doing what we think is best at the time, and we certainly cannot fully know the entire effect our decisions at the time will have on our future. I went to UPT in 1987 after an initial failed attempt to enter med school in 1986. Would I have preferred to have gone to med school back then, of course, but then again I would have never experienced the F-15 either.

But, had I attended med school back then, I would be a neurosurgeon now, paying a fortune in malpractice insurance with trial lawyers constantly breathing down my neck, and not sleeping uninterrupted every night.

As it turned out, despite four years as a military GMO, I was still able to end up living "the good life", working on a tropical island paradise. No call. No evenings/nights. No hospital. No weekends or holidays. The finest patient clientele in the world. I cannot complain...