My only regret starting

[stonegoat]

Sorry...my math was a little off...however my point is correct - new grads are under-paid. Many new grads in western Canada will start between 120K/year to 170K/year in a PRIVATE practice. As for trusting whether a new grad will make money, or whether the 8% margin is reasonable...that's a personal choice. Given your comments, all I can say is that it must suck to be an optometrist in the US where wages are so low...

Enjoy your Wal-Marts, Americas Best, Sams Club...try to pretend you haven't sold-out.

JP

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[nova2010]

Well, it seems to me that everyone is knocking commerial practice, but also say private isn't paying enough. As you said, we have debts to pay. As much as we would all love to keep the profession "respectable" we also need to be realistic about $$$$$ You may call it "selling out" , but I call it reality. So. what do you suggest we all do? I have a couple years of school yet, but I want to do the right thing.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Sorry...my math was a little off...however my point is correct - new grads are under-paid. Many new grads in western Canada will start between 120K/year to 170K/year in a PRIVATE practice. As for trusting whether a new grad will make money, or whether the 8% margin is reasonable...that's a personal choice. Given your comments, all I can say is that it must suck to be an optometrist in the US where wages are so low...

Enjoy your Wal-Marts, Americas Best, Sams Club...try to pretend you haven't sold-out.

JP

It's a little simplistic to say that things must be better in Western Canada because new grads can earn $120K to $170K per year to start. There are a couple of issues that need to be factored in to make a comparison. First of all, $120K CAD is roughly $104K USD and $170K CAD is about $146K USD. Second of all, if memory serves me, the tax rate in Canada is approximately 50%, whereas our graduated tax rate for $70K probably won't average out to much more than 25%, maybe even less. Therefore, $70K earned in the US will result in about $52K take home whereas $120K in Canada will be about $60K ($52K USD) and $170K will be about $85K ($73K USD). If $70K is the low end here in the states, then I would guess the high would be close to $90K, or about $65K after taxes (maybe 28% in taxes). So if we compare apples to apples, Canada's take home salary is equal on the low end, and only about $8K more on the high end. There are, of course, many more factors to consider, but please don't try to convince anyone that life is that much better for new grads up your way. Also remember these are starting salaries for new grads. Practice owners can easily make $200K to $300K per year ($231K CAD to $347K CAD). Then when you consider the tax difference, I would say US optometrists do just fine.

 

[IndianaOD]

Well, it seems to me that everyone is knocking commerial practice, but also say private isn't paying enough. As you said, we have debts to pay. As much as we would all love to keep the profession "respectable" we also need to be realistic about $$$$$ You may call it "selling out" , but I call it reality. So. what do you suggest we all do? I have a couple years of school yet, but I want to do the right thing.

What you do is control your spending and keep your debt low. Start networking with private docs. You are already used to living off of little, a few more years won't hurt. The only reason to go commercial is pure greed. Hopefully rates will go back down. I have over 100k in loans and the monthly bill is under $500. You can deal with that on 70-80k. You have to know that you are selfishly hurting other ODs who want to practice real optometry.

 

[PepsiSucks]

commerical optometry - it's a fact, live with it. No one on here has the money or power to challenge corporate america. Yeah, you can bitch and whine all you want. All you're doing is just annoying the hell out of people. If someone give you the choice of taking 100k or 70K, who in their right mind would take the lesser. Yeah, you 70K might be good enough for you or for where you're from but it's not for people (say living in california), where housing is 3-5x more than the rest of the nation. Cost of living is almost doubled. Bills aren't going to be $500 a month, more like $2000-3000 a month. Every profession at some point will be prostituted, but it's not like you're selling your soul to the devil or selling your body to put food on your family's table. Yes, there are problems within the profession. So what? This is what I want to do. I didn't go to college for 4 years to be insulted by some spoiled punks who wants be recognized as a more prestigious degree.
No one on here ever said there they will automatically go into commerical optometry right after they graduate. But who is to control what will happen along the line. I come from a big family (8) who is depending on me. If it comes to the point where I have to sell my soul to walmart for 4 years to pay for my brothers and sisters' college education, so be it.

So stop your whining, it's freaking annoying. No one cares. If you ate a McDonalds hamburger today, then you just prostituted your health...so there...

I vote for a ban on anyone who whines about corporate optometry.

 

[cpw]

It's a little simplistic to say that things must be better in Western Canada because new grads can earn $120K to $170K per year to start. There are a couple of issues that need to be factored in to make a comparison. First of all, $120K CAD is roughly $104K USD and $170K CAD is about $146K USD. Second of all, if memory serves me, the tax rate in Canada is approximately 50%, whereas our graduated tax rate for $70K probably won't average out to much more than 25%, maybe even less. Therefore, $70K earned in the US will result in about $52K take home whereas $120K in Canada will be about $60K ($52K USD) and $170K will be about $85K ($73K USD). If $70K is the low end here in the states, then I would guess the high would be close to $90K, or about $65K after taxes (maybe 28% in taxes). So if we compare apples to apples, Canada's take home salary is equal on the low end, and only about $8K more on the high end. There are, of course, many more factors to consider, but please don't try to convince anyone that life is that much better for new grads up your way. Also remember these are starting salaries for new grads. Practice owners can easily make $200K to $300K per year ($231K CAD to $347K CAD). Then when you consider the tax difference, I would say US optometrists do just fine.

Ben beat me to say that the CAD to USD conversion plus the MUCH HIGHER tax rate would equal less money.

 

[xmattODx]

The only reason to go commercial is pure greed.

Actually its not the only reason, nor is it always a reason. I'm proud to stand here today and say that come July 5th I'll be looking for yet another commercial job. My reason - is as far from greed as one can get.

 

[KHE]

Yes, there are problems within the profession. So what? This is what I want to do. I didn't go to college for 4 years to be insulted by some spoiled punks who wants be recognized as a more prestigious degree.
No one on here ever said there they will automatically go into commerical optometry right after they graduate. But who is to control what will happen along the line. I come from a big family (8) who is depending on me. If it comes to the point where I have to sell my soul to walmart for 4 years to pay for my brothers and sisters' college education, so be it.

So stop your whining, it's freaking annoying. No one cares. If you ate a McDonalds hamburger today, then you just prostituted your health...so there...

I vote for a ban on anyone who whines about corporate optometry.

But I'm sure you also didn't go to college for 4 years, and optometry school for another 4 only to be under the thumb of some faceless district manager or the optical department manager who transferred over from housewears. And I am also sure that you are not sitting there in your classes fantasizing about graduating and hitting that "mart" or that "crafters."

I didn't eat McDonalds today. I ate a very healthy lunch but I confess to having a chocolate chip muffin from Dunkin Donuts for breakfast.

 

[KHE]

Actually its not the only reason, nor is it always a reason. I'm proud to stand here today and say that come July 5th I'll be looking for yet another commercial job. My reason - is as far from greed as one can get.

Care to share?

 

[xmattODx]

Care to share?

I doubt that I'll be able to find a job that is "more acceptable" to the zealots here as I'm looking for something that will let me work for 5 weeks take a week off, work for three weeks and then leave for 8 months. No private practice will enable that.

Filling in at the most commercial of commercial practices will allow me to raise enough funds to continue to pay my student loans with the meager salary I'll be taking when (if?) I return to my current job for another year.

Commercial practice fills a need for certain patients and for certain ODs and greed is not the "only" reason for working commercial. If those on the bash-commercial-at-any-cost bandwagon could step off for long enough to hear the story that goes with the choice they could have a little more compassion/understanding.

 

[cpw]

Filling in at the most commercial of commercial practices will allow me to raise enough funds to continue to pay my student loans with the meager salary I'll be taking when (if?) I return to my current job for another year.

You're going back for another year ??!!! Awesome !! I'm sure your students will be thrilled Your blog has been fascinating, by the way. you're a much braver soul than myself.

 

[stonegoat]

I realize this thread is not about the Canadian tax system, but I feel compelled to correct the misinformed. Canada does not have a fixed tax rate...is increases as you make more money. For example on the first $30K earned you will pay ~18% tax, for the next 30K some higher amount, until you reach the maximum tax bracket of ~46%. However, you will not be taxed at the highest level for all of your income...only the income that falls into the next bracket. Additionally, there are tax shelters in Canada such as RSPs, as well as the usual business deductions. If you were to make 120k/year in Canada you would probably pay about 30K in taxes, if you took advantage of the legitimate tax deductions/shelters available. That would leave you with ~ 90K which is ~76K US. Not bad.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that new grads are NOT paid enough (in the US) in private practice, and if this were not true, why would so many be joining corporate practice? Commercial practice may be a necessary evil for some, but I think it's a shame.

JP

 

[eyestrain]

commerical optometry - it's a fact, live with it. No one on here has the money or power to challenge corporate america. Yeah, you can bitch and whine all you want. All you're doing is just annoying the hell out of people. If someone give you the choice of taking 100k or 70K, who in their right mind would take the lesser. Yeah, you 70K might be good enough for you or for where you're from but it's not for people (say living in california), where housing is 3-5x more than the rest of the nation. Cost of living is almost doubled. Bills aren't going to be $500 a month, more like $2000-3000 a month. Every profession at some point will be prostituted, but it's not like you're selling your soul to the devil or selling your body to put food on your family's table. Yes, there are problems within the profession. So what? This is what I want to do. I didn't go to college for 4 years to be insulted by some spoiled punks who wants be recognized as a more prestigious degree.
No one on here ever said there they will automatically go into commerical optometry right after they graduate. But who is to control what will happen along the line. I come from a big family (8) who is depending on me. If it comes to the point where I have to sell my soul to walmart for 4 years to pay for my brothers and sisters' college education, so be it.

So stop your whining, it's freaking annoying. No one cares. If you ate a McDonalds hamburger today, then you just prostituted your health...so there...

I vote for a ban on anyone who whines about corporate optometry.

I thought we were debating sob stories on a different thread...

 

[orangezero]

Perhaps some are aware of this, others may not be. There is an interesting time in commercial places around the end of the school year. In may and june, I think there are a lot of nervous doctors working "commercial." The nervous docs are the ones that wanted to raise their fees by $2 because they haven't been raised in 10 years. They are also the ones that wanted to leave early one day (when no patients were scheduled) to see their kid play a softball game.

Why does this happen? Because these managers THINK there is a huge debt load by the recent graduates, and they'll do anything to reduce it. And they play up that fact that commercial is the only option.

It sounds like from reading these posts that they are right... sad.

got a patient...

 

[PepsiSucks]

I thought we were debating sob stories on a different thread...

what part of my posting was a sob story? I basically said if the cost of living is higher in california and said that if need be I would work commercial...so F**K off with your attitude.

 

[jefguth]

if you took advantage of the legitimate tax deductions/shelters available. That would leave you with ~ 90K which is ~76K US. Not bad.

Include the tuition tax credit (let us say ~130,000) and a generous RSP contribution (13,000) in there and a new grad making 120,000 should have a net after tax income of ~105,000CAD the first year out, and maybe ~95,000 the second. Increase the RSP contribution to the max (18,000) in year three and take home after tax is still 90,000CAD. I think I'll be coming home in a couple of years for sure.

 

[xmattODx]

You're going back for another year ??!!! Awesome !! I'm sure your students will be thrilled Your blog has been fascinating, by the way. you're a much braver soul than myself.

Thanks for the comments. We're pretty sure we'll come back. We just need to come up with some funding (we're looking toward two NGOs) to supplement what the school pays us. We've burned through a lot/most of our savings (blood money from commercial optometry) paying for flights (Egypt/South Africa) and won't be able to survive a year here without some extra monetary help.

If we were to leave they would be left again with a single optometrist to teach 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th year classes (optometry related classes - other faculty teach general sciences). We would feel too guilty leaving her and the students in such a lurch.

It really isn't as bad here as you would believe. The bravery only comes when I have to teach a subject I'm not entirely comfortable with (much of retina). But I figure if I haven't seen it, neither will they (especially since they don't have DPAs let alone TPAs).

 

[Ben Chudner]

I realize this thread is not about the Canadian tax system, but I feel compelled to correct the misinformed.

Thank you for the clarification.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that new grads are NOT paid enough (in the US) in private practice, and if this were not true, why would so many be joining corporate practice? Commercial practice may be a necessary evil for some, but I think it's a shame.

JP

Since my exchange rate plus tax rate was not enough to offset the difference in pay between Canada and the US, I decided to look for a job in Western Canada. On the University of Waterloo website I was able to find a couple of private practice opportunities mixed in with a bunch practices that looked very similar to a corporate setting. Not a Wal-Mart, but practices with hundreds of offices throughout Canada. We have those here in the US as well where Wal-Mart has not penetrated yet. Anyway, the private practice that did post the starting salary was offering a guaranteed salary of $350 per day with bonus potential. What I found funny was that the ad went on to say the job offered that much to help with the payment of student loans which makes it sound like $350 a day is a pretty good starting salary. I thought this must be an anomaly, afterall Canada pays so much more than the US, so I called on a couple of jobs. Not one offered anywhere near $700 per day. All of them promised that with bonuses for production, I could make somewhere in the neighborhood of $100K ($86K USD) if I busted my butt, and within a few years I could be up to $150K ($129K USD). So then I spoke to some friends of mine in the US that have recently hired new associates. It appears that the going rate is $350-$375 per day in some areas and some of my friends do offer production bonuses. I realize this is way off topic, but my point is that the problem is not the pay in the US, because it is not much different, rather it is the opportunities. There are many more new OD's graduating each year than there are practices looking to hire. In Canada, by comparison, with only 2 schools instead of 14 there is much less competition for jobs, even when you add those Canadians that graduate from US schools and move back.

 

[stonegoat]

I have to say you are wrong....I KNOW a lot of practices will have a guarantee of, say $350-400/day in Canada....it will be exceeded by anybody with moderate ambition. My first year out I worked in a private practice that guaranteed about $380/day.....I ended the year having made 125k....and that's having taken almost 2 months holidays. I think if you really want to know how much you will make, actually ask to speak with an associate and ask them directly. I did that when I was new grad and looking for my first position. One practice was giving a guarantee of 80k/year...the associate I spoke with told me they made 130K. Another practice in the north was offering 130k/year guarantee. Their most recent associate made over 170K their first year. As for $700/day....very obtainable. That's what my associate makes on average.

Honestly I don't care what American ODs think of Canadian OD incomes, but I go back to my original point that private ODs in the US underpay. If that were not the case, then who in their right mind would work for Wal-Mart after earning the title of Doctor. There is a problem.

As for corporate chains in Canada, we definately have them, especially in cities, but many multi-location practices, such as Family Vision Care, Iris, etc. are OWNED by optometrists, not MBA types who know nothing of eye care.

JP

JP

 

[Ben Chudner]

Honestly I don't care what American ODs think of Canadian OD incomes, but I go back to my original point that private ODs in the US underpay. If that were not the case, then who in their right mind would work for Wal-Mart after earning the title of Doctor. There is a problem.

I guess I don't really care what Canadian OD's make either, but your point is incorrect. New grads are going into corporate because there is a lack of opportunity in private practice. Now, it may be true that salaries are lower in private practice, but that is a result of an oversupply of graduates. It's simple economics. OD's want to go into private practice so there is a lot of competition for jobs. This competition allows practice owners to pay less. OD's do not want to work in corporate settings, but the chance to make $100K helps ease the pain. Even if private practices offered $200K a year to start, it would not change the fact that there are not enough jobs available each year to allow every grad to take one. In Canada, with considerably less new grads each year, there is less competition for jobs, so the salaries are higher (if you say so) to lure potential associates. So what I am saying is that the starting salary is not the reason OD's go into corporate, it's the lack of opportunity in private practice.

As for corporate chains in Canada, we definately have them, especially in cities, but many multi-location practices, such as Family Vision Care, Iris, etc. are OWNED by optometrists, not MBA types who know nothing of eye care.

We can have a discussion about how retail chain optometric offices are bad for our profession no matter who owns them in another thread. I wonder how many grads go this route instead of private practice in Canada. Do they pay more than private practice? Are they all just opticals with a lane in the back room?

 

[stonegoat]

Finally a point we agree on....too many new ODs in the US. I understand the premise of supply and demand. The current corporate optometry "situation" in the US does provide considerable competition for private practitioners, which I'm sure limits their ability to grow in a way the allows for placement of most new grads. If the situation gets worse, as I assume it will with the opening of yet another school in California, what will we see next? Free eye exams with every 25 gallons purchased at 7-Eleven?

As for corporate optometry in Canada....definately an issue as well. The supply and demand issues must differ though, as Wal-Mart vision centres, etc, have a hard time attracting ODs. As for me, the nearest "chain" optometry clinic (Lenscrafters) is about a 5 hour drive away. I don't think that will change anytime soon, as any new grad interested in the area would find full-time work privately without much effort.

As for my associate, I just saw his income for last month...a little over $12,000( almost 10K US)..and he only works three days/week. Better month that normal, but I think you get the picture.

JP

 

[drbizzaro]

I have to say you are wrong....I KNOW a lot of practices will have a guarantee of, say $350-400/day in Canada....it will be exceeded by anybody with moderate ambition. My first year out I worked in a private practice that guaranteed about $380/day.....I ended the year having made 125k....and that's having taken almost 2 months holidays. I think if you really want to know how much you will make, actually ask to speak with an associate and ask them directly. I did that when I was new grad and looking for my first position. One practice was giving a guarantee of 80k/year...the associate I spoke with told me they made 130K. Another practice in the north was offering 130k/year guarantee. Their most recent associate made over 170K their first year. As for $700/day....very obtainable. That's what my associate makes on average.

just a question about your post: you state 380/day = 125k, but if you do some quick calculations, 380 = about 100K
Did you receive any bonuses?

 

[eyestrain]

just a question about your post: you state 380/day = 125k, but if you do some quick calculations, 380 = about 100K
Did you receive any bonuses?

I don't get this. You've been around this forum for several years and seem to always bring back year old threads. Why?

 

[gochi]

I don't get this. You've been around this forum for several years and seem to always bring back year old threads. Why?

Haha...Indiana OD does that aswell.

No disrespect eyestrain, but you're question is exceedingly irrelevant

 

[gochi]

just a question about your post: you state 380/day = 125k, but if you do some quick calculations, 380 = about 100K
Did you receive any bonuses?

Maybe he was just approximating or maybe you factored in tax ?

 

[Jay12]

I don't get this. You've been around this forum for several years and seem to always bring back year old threads. Why?

I agree.......I'm pretty sure its just to get people riled up...

 

[drbizzaro]

I don't get this. You've been around this forum for several years and seem to always bring back year old threads. Why?

i love bringing back old threads - especially if there is some interesting info there! i also wont lie, i love controversy as well!

 

[eyestrain]

i love bringing back old threads - especially if there is some interesting info there! i also wont lie, i love controversy as well!

Fair enough. I love controversy too.

 

[WoodyJI]

Fair enough. I love controversy too.

Well I don't love controversy--what do you think about that, huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3HaRFBSq9k

 

[gochi]

It's a little simplistic to say that things must be better in Western Canada because new grads can earn $120K to $170K per year to start. There are a couple of issues that need to be factored in to make a comparison. First of all, $120K CAD is roughly $104K USD and $170K CAD is about $146K USD. Second of all, if memory serves me, the tax rate in Canada is approximately 50%, whereas our graduated tax rate for $70K probably won't average out to much more than 25%, maybe even less. Therefore, $70K earned in the US will result in about $52K take home whereas $120K in Canada will be about $60K ($52K USD) and $170K will be about $85K ($73K USD). If $70K is the low end here in the states, then I would guess the high would be close to $90K, or about $65K after taxes (maybe 28% in taxes). So if we compare apples to apples, Canada's take home salary is equal on the low end, and only about $8K more on the high end. There are, of course, many more factors to consider, but please don't try to convince anyone that life is that much better for new grads up your way. Also remember these are starting salaries for new grads. Practice owners can easily make $200K to $300K per year ($231K CAD to $347K CAD). Then when you consider the tax difference, I would say US optometrists do just fine.

Your calculations are wrong.

120k CAD = 117 USD and 177k CAD = 166k USD.

Federal tax rate is 26% if you make between $75,769 and $123,184 and 29% of if your income is over $123,184. The provincial tax rate varies, but I averaged it out to 14% if you make >100k. Im not sure if I have covered all taxes, but an od grossing 120k would take home 72k while an OD grossing 177k would take home 98k. Neither gross income will yield a six-figure net income, and people say making 100k isn't a big deal


To be honest, I'd rather practice in the USA. It just doesn't seem right to have 40-50% of your money going to professional liars.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Your calculations are wrong.

120k CAD = 117 USD and 177k CAD = 166k USD.

I wrote that almost exactly a year ago. The US dollar was a lot stronger back then, so I don't doubt that as of today my calcluations are no longer right.

 

[gochi]

I wrote that almost exactly a year ago. The US dollar was a lot stronger back then, so I don't doubt that as of today my calcluations are no longer right.

Oh, sorry about that. I didn't realize how old this thread is.

 

[JAZZEYE]

Can we get this poster banned? All he does is attack other posters directly. My opinion is obviously popular. I have had several private practice job offers. I chose a low paying residency to avoid commercial. I actually back up what I say. Offer useful advice or leave the forums please. Take care of yourself hippocrite. Head over to the 4000 member odwire forums and see how long your crying lasts.

ICU you must not give a crap about optometry, because you obviously don't know the challenges the profession faces. Though you'll probably be a walmart jockey and just milk it for all its worth. Are you a first year failing out or something?

BTW I love what I do and since I focus on non-medical issues in my post-doc you have no room to talk.

IndianaOD your posts are becoming more and more obnoxious and less substantive. Your rantings are a tiring and relentless preaching of negativity ,the only thing obvious is you have control issues that reach well beyond Optometry. Its not necessary to blowout everyone who tries to say anything other than something that fits your own opinion ... its time to give it a rest.
Yea, yea... I know you "get a lot of emails from students who appreciate your advice" I'm sure there are quite a few who have been scared and confused by your rantings. Sorry but... after looking back on about a year of your posts you are on my last nerve ! The simple fact is Optometry has challenges just like any other profesion and the rewards are very good if can overcome those obstacles. Insisting everyone should approach it the way you think they should is one sided and not constructive.

 

[IndianaOD]

IndianaOD your posts are becoming more and more obnoxious and less substantive. Your rantings are a tiring and relentless preaching of negativity ,the only thing obvious is you have control issues that reach well beyond Optometry. Its not necessary to blowout everyone who tries to say anything other than something that fits your own opinion ... its time to give it a rest.
Yea, yea... I know you "get a lot of emails from students who appreciate your advice" I'm sure there are quite a few who have been scared and confused by your rantings. Sorry but... after looking back on about a year of your posts you are on my last nerve ! The simple fact is Optometry has challenges just like any other profesion and the rewards are very good if can overcome those obstacles. Insisting everyone should approach it the way you think they should is one sided and not constructive.

Wow, and I'm not the one commenting on year old posts. Easy there trigger.