my plan

[medapple]

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Hello,

Here’s some background. I applied to both medical school and clinpsych. I would be happy with an acceptance from a medical school, or a top 75 ranking clinpsych program. (I should mention clinpsych is not just a substitute b/c I’ve been thinking of this for some time now, and I’ve always been interested in psych). This year, I’m waitlisted in med school, but I don't want to take the MCAT again. I applied to 5 clinpsych program, received an interview at one and a waitlist.

Here’s my qualifications:
GRE General (V: 630, 640; Q: 730, 590) GRE Psych 92%. uGPA 3.8 with 3.6 Sci and 3.7 Psych. I have about 12 psych courses, and a bunch of related sci and health courses.

I have to plan what to do next. I’m in the midst of deciding between 2 MPH (master public health) program. I chose MPH b/c it’s a good background into both and I’d learn methodology. Both of the MPH programs have a clinpysch department, so I was thinking of doing my internship there. Here’s my question:

1. Will my pursuing MPH be looked upon negatively by clinpsych admissions. I’m pretty open-ended, and I can see how all these things relate to each other, but will admissions see it this way?

2. Will my MPH institution matter much? I’m deciding between a very good school (in both MPH and clinpsych) versus a moderate school of lower cost (moderate in MPH, but good in clinpsych).

3. I wrote GRE in 2006; I really don’t want to write them again. I can do a 2year MPH at the higherranked schools versus a 1year MPH at the lowerranked school. The score is supposed to be for 5 years, but I’ve been informed that I may have to write again b/c some schools want a recent score. Should I just do the 1year MPH?

4. What can I do to increase my chance of admission into clinpsych? I know I have to increase experience, so I was going to do my MPH internship at a clinpsych place. But will “research” experience be counted as higher? (although in an MPH, the internship is technically a research internship, but not quite as long)

5. Does this sound like a good plan? Can anyone foresee any pitfall? Am I being realistic that an MPH will be looked upon equally as an MA psych.

Also, I am interested in both neuropsych or health psych. However, health psych is more related to my general undergrad and MPH experience, so therefore I’m going to apply to health psych. Also, I like research, and I wanted to attend a school in the top 75 because I’d like to have an academic/teaching (65%) – clinical (35%) career.

Please let me know if I am being reasonable. Thanks!

 

[JockNerd]

I can answer the points I feel I can give a good response to:

2 & 4: the institution won't matter much if at all. Certainly it won't matter as much as what you do while you're there. Good, solid research experience is the best thing for your application. I'd suggest you go wherever you can get more, better, and more involved research experience if you want to end up in a great (and free) clinical program.

3: I'd really suggest that you not make that a criteria. So few places have that 1 year requirement (really only the one or two I happened across are the only times I'd ever heard of that).

I think you'll do great, whatever you do! It's hard enough to get an interview or get waitlisted--that you've already done that means you beat out most students applything to those schools! Good luck!

 

[medapple]

Hey, Thanks alot JockNerd.

When you say solid research, does this mean I need to get a publication?
So probably I need to call some departments to see how old of a GRE score they'll accept (even though in all fairness, it should be the stated 5 years)?

Thanks, if anyone could answer my other questions, I'd appreciate it.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Hey, Thanks alot JockNerd.

When you say solid research, does this mean I need to get a publication?
So probably I need to call some departments to see how old of a GRE score they'll accept (even though in all fairness, it should be the stated 5 years)?

Thanks, if anyone could answer my other questions, I'd appreciate it.

Ahhhhhh no don't call! haha. A lot of schools get really... uptight about that. This info can be found on their websites, so do some googling and you'll find your answers (usually on their admissions requirements page). If you call and ask a question that's easy to find on their website, you may get a nice helpful response but you may also get "this is all on our website, go look there"

 

[KillerDiller]

I think your plan sounds solid. There is no reason an MPH wouldn't help you on your way to a clinical psych program provided that it includes psych-related research experience. Publication would certainly be a good ultimate goal for your Masters program, especially considering that you want to go into academics eventually.

I also caution you about focusing too much on getting into one of "the top 75" clinical programs. I used to be devoted to the ranking system myself (a carryover from undergrad, I suppose). I have since come to the conclusion, though, that rankings of clinical programs are next to meaningless when it comes to helping you choose a school. A program may be considered very strong overall, but be weak in your particular area of research. You really apply to a lab and a professor, not to a school. Indices that use publications by the department as a major factor in ranking the programs are somewhat better, in my opinion, but you still don't want to end up somewhere where the person in the lab across the hall is putting out tons of publications while your lab is doing nothing. If you are looking for a job teaching at a university, the hiring committee is going to be looking at your research output more than the name on your diploma.

Hope that helps somewhat. Anyway, your plan sounds good to me, and I will agree with JockNerd that you shouldn't let the age of your GRE scores affect which institution you choose for your MPH. None of the programs I looked at refused my 4-year-old scores.

 

[paramour]

I second KillerDiller. Don't limit yourself by rankings for clinical psych. It might make sense for med schools, but you typically apply to clinical programs based upon your research interests. Those coveted top 75 programs may not align well with your interests, which would leave you applying to programs that you likely would not mesh with and omitting programs that you would fit in better with and where you would still receive a decent education. Keep in mind that clinical programs often select applicants based upon their overall fit. If they see you don't fit well (because you selected them simply due to their top 75 status), then you likely will not get too far.

My GRE scores were much older than yours will be and I had no problem with anyone accepting them, so you should not have to limit your program selection by this.

As far as the master's degree goes, an MPH should not reflect negatively upon you there. I have a few profs who obtained master's degrees in fields other than psychology. It might actually go better for you than a master's degree in psychology, contingent upon you obtaining adequate research experience, of course. There were a number of programs that advised me I was looked at more stringently than other candidates because I had a master's degree. And, others wouldn't look at me twice because of it. All reasons were related to the graduate work in psychology I already possessed. So, if you wish to pursue an MPH, I wouldn't let that presumed prejudice against non-psych degrees hinder you.

G'luck!

 

[medapple]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm alittle confused though. I understand that for an academic position, they will look at the number of publications you have when you finish your PhD. But school name (and ranking) doesn't matter that much? Or do you mean that ranking (as conducted by US news) is not very relevant, but there are better ranking system that uses publication as criteria. What are these ranking systems?

Honestly, the reason I'm looking at ranking is because the one problem I had last year is that I honestly didn't know how to chose schools to consider and then apply to: to even going through the faculty names at one school takes so much time. I found applying to schools overwhelming last year, I didn't know how to apply to doctoral programs. How do other people do it: It seems that most people work with someone in undergrad, and then just ask their supervisor which schools are good in that field; Is this correct? (I guess I just need more experience and really specify a field for myself).

Also, I know that for a ClinPsych PhD, the process is: predoc, predoc internship, postdoc internship, writing the state exam, finding a job. I heard something along the lines that only 75% people got postdoc internships. Who are these 25% not getting internships? What happens to people with no internship? (This is the other reason I'm concerned about the ranking of the school, because I'm hearing things about people not getting internships).

Thanks

 

[Ollie123]

Unfortunately there is no easy way to go about applying. What you described (asking an advisor with similar research interests) is probably the least time-consuming way.

I didn't have anyone I could talk to in my research area at my school. I went through the list of every APA-accredited school from the APA website, and looked at the research profile of every clinical psychology faculty member. Generated a list of about 150 potential faculty members from that. Then just went through that list and starting ruling places out based on things like "not THAT great a research match", "program seems weak", "program is psychodynamic or other sign that I really DO NOT want to go there", etc. Eventually I had about 20 left, I emailed all of them to find out who was taking students and had 15 left, ruled out 2 more because one seemed like a jackass in his email, and one seemed nice but his current research was moving in the pediatric direction a bit too much for me.

You do not want to know how long this took me. I spent more time finding out where to apply than actually applying.

Rankings are pretty meaningless in clinical psych. If you want to make sure you get that accredited internship, get the Insider's Guide to clinical and counseling psychology programs (this can also help in choosing schools since they tell you what schools have faculty in certain research areas). Make sure the schools have a decent placement rate. Every school I applied to was hovering near 100%, its not like there's a shortage of schools with good placement rates.

Within those, I'd stick with finding a good advisor over rankings. As long as a school doesn't have troubles getting students internships, and your ADVISOR is productive even if the department as a whole is not, you should be fine. People look at the work you've done, and who your advisor is, the name of the school is pretty secondary by comparison. I really think school-rankings are kind of pointless in this field, since classwork is really soooooo secondary to everything else in this field. Ranking the success of graduates who worked with specific mentors would make a lot more sense to me.

 

[paramour]

Unfortunately there is no easy way to go about applying. What you described (asking an advisor with similar research interests) is probably the least time-consuming way.

I didn't have anyone I could talk to in my research area at my school. I went through the list of every APA-accredited school from the APA website, and looked at the research profile of every clinical psychology faculty member. Generated a list of about 150 potential faculty members from that. Then just went through that list and starting ruling places out based on things like "not THAT great a research match", "program seems weak", "program is psychodynamic or other sign that I really DO NOT want to go there", etc. Eventually I had about 20 left, I emailed all of them to find out who was taking students and had 15 left, ruled out 2 more because one seemed like a jackass in his email, and one seemed nice but his current research was moving in the pediatric direction a bit too much for me.

You do not want to know how long this took me. I spent more time finding out where to apply than actually applying.

Rankings are pretty meaningless in clinical psych. If you want to make sure you get that accredited internship, get the Insider's Guide to clinical and counseling psychology programs (this can also help in choosing schools since they tell you what schools have faculty in certain research areas). Make sure the schools have a decent placement rate. Every school I applied to was hovering near 100%, its not like there's a shortage of schools with good placement rates.

Within those, I'd stick with finding a good advisor over rankings. As long as a school doesn't have troubles getting students internships, and your ADVISOR is productive even if the department as a whole is not, you should be fine. People look at the work you've done, and who your advisor is, the name of the school is pretty secondary by comparison. I really think school-rankings are kind of pointless in this field, since classwork is really soooooo secondary to everything else in this field. Ranking the success of graduates who worked with specific mentors would make a lot more sense to me.

All excellent points!

I just wanted to say that I am glad I am not the only one who actually went through every single program on the APA Accredited list and then checked out every single professor within each program. T'was extremely time-consuming (and quite irksome when I realized that some of those profs had later moved on, retired, etc.).

There were a few others in our dept applying to programs and they thought I was nuts for doing this. Their selection criteria? Rankings and/or location.

"I've always wanted to live in San Francisco . . . " applied to 7 different programs in and around the SF area. I think there were only one, maybe two, program(s) that she applied to in a different state.

 

[danzgymn86]

Unfortunately there is no easy way to go about applying. What you described (asking an advisor with similar research interests) is probably the least time-consuming way.

I didn't have anyone I could talk to in my research area at my school. I went through the list of every APA-accredited school from the APA website, and looked at the research profile of every clinical psychology faculty member. Generated a list of about 150 potential faculty members from that. Then just went through that list and starting ruling places out based on things like "not THAT great a research match", "program seems weak", "program is psychodynamic or other sign that I really DO NOT want to go there", etc. Eventually I had about 20 left, I emailed all of them to find out who was taking students and had 15 left, ruled out 2 more because one seemed like a jackass in his email, and one seemed nice but his current research was moving in the pediatric direction a bit too much for me.

You do not want to know how long this took me. I spent more time finding out where to apply than actually applying.

Rankings are pretty meaningless in clinical psych. If you want to make sure you get that accredited internship, get the Insider's Guide to clinical and counseling psychology programs (this can also help in choosing schools since they tell you what schools have faculty in certain research areas). Make sure the schools have a decent placement rate. Every school I applied to was hovering near 100%, its not like there's a shortage of schools with good placement rates.

Within those, I'd stick with finding a good advisor over rankings. As long as a school doesn't have troubles getting students internships, and your ADVISOR is productive even if the department as a whole is not, you should be fine. People look at the work you've done, and who your advisor is, the name of the school is pretty secondary by comparison. I really think school-rankings are kind of pointless in this field, since classwork is really soooooo secondary to everything else in this field. Ranking the success of graduates who worked with specific mentors would make a lot more sense to me.

What does one say in an email to a potential POI?

 

[medapple]

Thanks again! All very helpful.

So to clarify the statement of 75% people who got postdoc APA internships, and 25% not getting internships: Do these numbers refer to PhD students within APA accredited programs only, or are these PhD and PsyD students from anywhere?

 

[Ollie123]

Mine was basically:
Hi, I'm so and so from x university. I've been working with Dr. y for the past few years working on a project examining x. I will be applying to graduate school next year, have read some of your work and find it interesting. I was wondering if you will be taking a student next year?

etc.

I'd keep it reasonably short. They don't want to read a book, and if it seems like they are talkative you can always email them back

 

[JockNerd]

I found that the response I got to my inquiries reflected the amount of work I put into the letters. I mentioned specifically what I thought the research collection was between my work and the POI's in about half of my 60 letters. I knew most of their stuff already because I'd read their work while doing my thesis, but I brushed up on what most of them did specifically. For profs I was really interested in, I asked a relevent research question if I thought it sounded half-intelligent. This lead to exchanges of several e-mails with many of the profs. Don't write a novel, but they get a million "Hi, are you taking anyone?" letters and it helps to set yourself apart.

The people I was less interested in or knew less about got shorter e-mails. They all also gave me shorter responses.

My big letters read something like:

Hi, I'm an undergrad at X. I'm looking at my options for grad school and I knew your work through my directed research/thesis on topic Y. When I was doing my research, I found your paper on Z to be really useful, especially since reason R. I'd really like to work with someone who's doing the kind of research I'm really into in grad school, so I was wondering if you're taking on any students in the coming academic year.

 

[Psychxiety]

I found that the response I got to my inquiries reflected the amount of work I put into the letters. I mentioned specifically what I thought the research collection was between my work and the POI's in about half of my 60 letters.

Dang! 60 letters...I'm amazed you found that many people working in your area of interest. I had a hard time even finding 15 people at decent programs. You will find that the sub areas in psych are pretty tight knit groups.

I've got to say, I didn’t go into detail about what I knew of their research...at that point I don't think I was even that sophisticated. It really didn't seem to hurt me. What I'm saying is don't panic if you haven't read everything they've ever written. The true purpose of these emails is to prevent you from wasting time & $$ on a person whose going on sabbatical etc. IMO even if your write an outstanding email, the chance of them remembering it after reading 1000 SOPs isn't high.

If you are polite, concise, & sound reasonably intelligent- then you’re golden. Save some energy for your SOP.

 

[KillerDiller]

Thanks again! All very helpful.

So to clarify the statement of 75% people who got postdoc APA internships, and 25% not getting internships: Do these numbers refer to PhD students within APA accredited programs only, or are these PhD and PsyD students from anywhere?

I beleive those numbers refer to all doctoral students who seek to complete an internship--Ph.D candidates in clinical and counseling, as well as those going for a Psy.D. Anyway, comparing an individual program's match rate to the national average is a good indicator of program strength and reputation.

To clarify my statements earlier, I meant that clinical psychology rankings are pretty useless for students overall. As Ollie mentioned, coursework is not going to matter nearly as much as your research when you apply to academic positions. The name of your school will not get you as far as the name of your advisor. The rankings are meaningless because they can't go into detail and evaluate schools for you based on your research interests. When you apply to clinical psych programs, your statement of purpose details not only why you want to go into the clinical branch of the field, but also what work you want to once you're there. For example, if you want to research how anxiety affects the outlook of terminal cancer patients, knowing the "top" clinical programs, or even the top clinical programs that offer a health psych specialty is only going to get you so far. It would be a waste of your time to apply to the school U.S. News and World report considers to be number 1 if everyone there was researching the cognitive therapy outcome.