National Autonomous University of Mexico School of Vet Med now AVMA Accredited

[twelvetigers]

With all the buzz about Ross's new status, everyone seems to have missed the other school that was recently accredited.

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/apr11/x110401a.asp

The council considered UNAM's response during its fall meeting Sept. 19-21, 2010, and decided to visit Mexico for a focus visit the first week of February 2011. Focus visits are for the sole purpose of allowing COE members to examine any areas where they found deficiencies in their previous evaluation. Using that information, the council voted to grant the school full accreditation.

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=15324

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may10/100515a.asp

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=16128


Here is an older thread on this topic:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=743910


Juuust wanted to bring it up for discussion. 🙂

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[laitmanvet]

Very cool. Now I just have to learn Spanish and those drug wars have to end. I also never realized that State University of Utrecht was accredited. I was in the Netherlands in March and what an amazing country! Note to self: learn Dutch.

 

[twelvetigers]

Note to self: learn Dutch.

GOOD luck with that... lol. Talk about difficult.

 

[NStarz]

Haha, my mom's best friend from college lives in Holland. She brought her small kids over to visit for a week and they didn't speak a word of English. I know now about 15 words in Dutch and can count to 10 🙂

 

[laitmanvet]

GOOD luck with that... lol. Talk about difficult.

Haha, yeah I don't actually plan on tackling that. Just a nice thought...🙂

 

[twelvetigers]

Here's yet another article:

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=15111

So the main issues seem to be... are graduates of UNAM up to par with the veterinarians produced by U.S. institutions? Does Banfield have a bit too much to gain from this, at the expense of U.S. graduates? And:

Caught in a vortex of rising educational costs, new U.S. veterinarians can rack up more than $150,000 in student debt. How are they supposed to compete with their Mexican counterparts who spend as little as $1,000 to earn a degree and whose salary demands might be a lot less," Pion questions.

ONLY $1000 for a full veterinary education? I think my head just exploded.

I don't see how pre-vets from the U.S. would be allowed to apply there, as they are to other foreign schools (AVC, Dublin, etc.) not only due to safety reasons. Do they even want to have applicants from out of Mexico?

 

[sumstorm]

I have to admit that my concern is that I'm not sure the shortage is as real as claimed, and I'm not happy with the concept of importing vets to fill positions unless there is a dire need.

 

[twelvetigers]

I understand that there is a real need for qualified vets in Central America - the conditions for animals down there certainly aren't ideal - but yeah, will the graduates be staying down there, or coming into the U.S. for better pay (which will likely be lower than the pay a graduate with the average $150k debt would want)?

 

[sumstorm]

I understand that there is a real need for qualified vets in Central America - the conditions for animals down there certainly aren't ideal -

I can't see how AVMA accreditation helps with that aspect, though.

 

[twelvetigers]

Hmm. Well, one would think that, for a school to AVMA accredited, it would have to meet certain standards, meaning the students there are definitely receiving a good and thorough education. I'm not sure the actual difference it makes, though.

 

[pennyonthefloor]

Here's yet another article:

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=15111

So the main issues seem to be... are graduates of UNAM up to par with the veterinarians produced by U.S. institutions? Does Banfield have a bit too much to gain from this, at the expense of U.S. graduates? And:



ONLY $1000 for a full veterinary education? I think my head just exploded.

How much for Rosetta stone and some self-defense lessons?

 

[laitmanvet]

How much for Rosetta stone and some self-defense lessons?

LOL, seriously!

 

[Lissarae06]

Are they even going to take US applicants at this school? The main thing that rubs me the wrong way is the Banfield aspect. Just seems a little sketchy to me (and a lot of others on VIN).

 

[bbeventer]

LOL, seriously!

For real!! 😱

 

[Hopeful07]

Just to play the devil's advocate:

It's a pretty bold assumption to believe that there's going to be a massive influx of Mexican veterinarians running to get jobs in America. I used to live in Mexico, and contrary to popular opinion, Mexicans are not typically planning their escape to America. That being said, since it is Banfield that may be doling out jobs, I could be wrong.

TT, you bring up a good point. I hope being AVMA accredited will help set the standard for animal welfare in Mexico.

 

[sumstorm]

That being said, since it is Banfield that may be doling out jobs, I could be wrong.

TT, you bring up a good point. I hope being AVMA accredited will help set the standard for animal welfare in Mexico.

I think that is the concern, that Banfield has such a vested interest, and I, for one, am not a big believer that Banfield is pouring money into a university for purely altruistic causes.

I'm not sure how accrediting a vet school will set a standard for animal welfare in a country. We have plenty of AVMA accreditted vet schools in the USA and Vick as an 'honored hero.'

I do think I would be less concerned if Banfield wasn't involved, but I am also concerned because I do know vets that work in higher paying countries so that they can send money home and return home to do good during vacations (and afford to do so.) That isn't an uncommon theme in Asia.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I wouldn't be too worried about it though... cause like AVMA accredation =/= green card, right? How many vet clinics in private practice will actually support visas and/or green cards? That takes quite a bit of resources.

Maybe this will actually be a way to get qualified vets in rural areas of the US that very few Americans want to work in because the pay is too low and student debt is too high (even with gov't incentives)?

The curriculum is taught in Spanish right? Not English? If that's the case, I don't think you need to worry about too many extra American students rushing over to get their vet degree there to flood the job market either.

 

[twelvetigers]

Good points, minnerbelle!

 

[alliecat44]

The curriculum is taught in Spanish right? Not English? If that's the case, I don't think you need to worry about too many extra American students rushing over to get their vet degree there to flood the job market either.

Minnerbelle, in addition to paying $10 million for the teaching hospital, Banfield also paid to build a "state-of-the-art English language lab." Just FYI.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Minnerbelle, in addition to paying $10 million for the teaching hospital, Banfield also paid to build a "state-of-the-art English language lab." Just FYI.

oh yeah, no doubt. I think it's pretty fishy that Banfield is being that "altruistic." And I dunno what their intention with their English language lab is... Who knows, maybe it's innocuous. Is the English language lab a condition by the AVMA for accreditation? I dunno why the American Vet Assoc has to approve an institution that doesn't have too much for Americans to gain due to language barriers (in terms of at least sharing ideas, research, etc...)

I mean... I guess it could be that Banfield has this ploy to take over the entire vet industry (crush all those little private clinics), and ARE planning to start this revolution by starting with a whole army of Mexican vets that they support in terms of immigration... but I dunno... the future of vet med is so up in the air right now I have no idea what to think about it.

But I digress. My initial point was more just that it takes a lot more than just accreditation for people to cross borders and "take over jobs."

 

[AngSchmange]

I think that is the concern, that Banfield has such a vested interest, and I, for one, am not a big believer that Banfield is pouring money into a university for purely altruistic causes.

I'm not sure how accrediting a vet school will set a standard for animal welfare in a country. We have plenty of AVMA accreditted vet schools in the USA and Vick as an 'honored hero.'

I do think I would be less concerned if Banfield wasn't involved, but I am also concerned because I do know vets that work in higher paying countries so that they can send money home and return home to do good during vacations (and afford to do so.) That isn't an uncommon theme in Asia.

Where are these higher paying countries and how easy is it for me to move there 😀 Haha. Totally joking but honestly curious. America is a great place, but we all know our economy is not in the best place right now. Gas in my town went up to $3.73 today...hot damn. I've also heard even lower numbers for some vet's in the UK, but those were more rural areas.

 

[eventualeventer]

I have some random thoughts that I'd like to get out. This is not just about UNAM, but about increasing class sizes at schools across the country, accreditation of Ross and possibly SGU, and the proposals for new vet schools in places like Utah:

A. I don't think the AVMA should be in the position of making standards and doing inspections for the whole world. This is the American Veterinary Medical Association, not the International Clearinghouse for Veterinary Educational Standards. They are supposed to be listening to the needs of their own members, and I think there is an inherent conflict between these two goals, which leads us number B (I like saying that):
B. I think the "shortage" is a bunch of hooey. There are problems of distribution, especially urban vs. rural, and people not being willing to pay enough to support a vet in their area, but producing more veterinarians who want to do small animal practice in large cities - or who need that sort of job in order to pay off their loans - is not going to fix it, as has been discussed many times on these boards. From reading on VIN, it sounds like there are plenty of places where profits would be higher (and enormous student loans easier to pay off) and more people served with better leveraging of support staff and the same number or even fewer vets.
C. More vets => more competition and ultimately lower salaries, despite ever-rising tuition. I worry that, with the substantial increases in new vets produced, we are going to hear more and more stories of new grads having trouble finding a job, let alone one that pays a reasonable salary and allows the repayment of unreasonable student loans.

EDIT: Darn it, that's what I get for going away for a while and not hitting preview before posting.

 

[awaring1]

The only thing I can think about while reading this thread is South Park...



THEY TOOK YER JERB!!!!

 

[Hopeful07]

I think that is the concern, that Banfield has such a vested interest, and I, for one, am not a big believer that Banfield is pouring money into a university for purely altruistic causes.

I'm not sure how accrediting a vet school will set a standard for animal welfare in a country. We have plenty of AVMA accreditted vet schools in the USA and Vick as an 'honored hero.'

I do think I would be less concerned if Banfield wasn't involved, but I am also concerned because I do know vets that work in higher paying countries so that they can send money home and return home to do good during vacations (and afford to do so.) That isn't an uncommon theme in Asia.

I see your point. And I agree that Banfield is likely in this for other reasons. But if the AVMA is regulating how they educate the students, then ideally a lot of their students will go out and practice with the standards that were enforced.

Although SGU is not accredited (yet, likely that it will be next year), I've seen the impact that a quality school on par with AVMA standards can do for a country. Animal welfare still has quite a ways to go here in Grenada, but it's improved vastly since SGUSVM has taken an active role in the community.

I'm not overly concerned with National Autonomous University of Mexico's graduates competing with me for jobs. Especially if they want to work for Banfield because I don't have any intention to work for them. The only thing that stopped these graduates from coming to the States before was the Pave or ECFVG. It's an extra hoop to jump through, but if someone was determined to move to the US, they would do it.

 

[sumstorm]

I can't find it right now, but somewhere Banfield explained their actions as part of helping 'fill the need' for spanish speaking vets in the US.

I'm not as worried if this won't be a method for Banfield to drasticly drop costs (vets with no debt) and therefore undersale other vets in the same markets.

 

[Hopeful07]

C. More vets => more competition and ultimately lower salaries, despite ever-rising tuition. I worry that, with the substantial increases in new vets produced, we are going to hear more and more stories of new grads having trouble finding a job, let alone one that pays a reasonable salary and allows the repayment of unreasonable student loans.

I know it's too early to assume anything. But I don't think that SGU will increase their class sizes by an amount that would make a dent in the American economy. For one, the classes are pretty full at about 90 students per term. For two, it's not all rainbows and butterflies here. People have to adapt to living in a third world country which takes a toll. Not a lot of people are willing to give up the luxuries that America has to offer.

 

[AngSchmange]

I know it's too early to assume anything. But I don't think that SGU will increase their class sizes by an amount that would make a dent in the American economy. For one, the classes are pretty full at about 90 students per term. For two, it's not all rainbows and butterflies here. People have to adapt to living in a third world country which takes a toll. Not a lot of people are willing to give up the luxuries that America has to offer.

I am SERIOUS when I say it would KILL me to have to pay 9 dollars (or what was it?) for a pack of Oreos. NOT even lying.

 

[sumstorm]

Where are these higher paying countries and how easy is it for me to move there 😀 Haha. Totally joking but honestly curious. America is a great place, but we all know our economy is not in the best place right now. Gas in my town went up to $3.73 today...hot damn. I've also heard even lower numbers for some vet's in the UK, but those were more rural areas.

LOL. when i was in asia it was not unusual to know vets that worked in Singapore or Hong Kong or Australia then took month long vacations to provide care in thier home country. Considering that while I was in Thailand, a dollar was ~45bahts, and that was the income many of the mahouts earned in a few days, it made far more sense for folks to work elsewhere then come home for visits.

 

[Hopeful07]

I am SERIOUS when I say it would KILL me to have to pay 9 dollars (or what was it?) for a pack of Oreos. NOT even lying.

Yeah, they are a little bit cheaper here, but what kills me even more is when they don't have double stuff oreos in stock for weeks! The IGA gets big shipments in on Thursdays/Fridays and it's like winning the lotto when you find some commodity that you haven't seen in stock for a while. The most glorious day for me was when I found Doritos. Which they seem to now have in constant supply lately.

 

[AngSchmange]

LOL. when i was in asia it was not unusual to know vets that worked in Singapore or Hong Kong or Australia then took month long vacations to provide care in thier home country. Considering that while I was in Thailand, a dollar was ~45bahts, and that was the income many of the mahouts earned in a few days, it made far more sense for folks to work elsewhere then come home for visits.

Glad I could give you a giggle! We're not all crazy here on SDN hahaha. Ok well I am crazy... 👍.

I've always wanted to spend some time in Australia, I find the evolution of marsupials so cool, it'd be awesome to move there and have some experience with animals not seen anywhere else in the world (well...minus opossums which are here in too high of a number), but I wonder how a visa would work. In my mind I would think since I will have a higher degree, and that I'll be a doctor, that would help in the visa process for me to say, work in Australia for a few months or years. International relations is such a crazy topic that I just can't even begin to understand.

 

[sumstorm]

but I wonder how a visa would work. In my mind I would think since I will have a higher degree, and that I'll be a doctor, that would help in the visa process for me to say, work in Australia for a few months or years. International relations is such a crazy topic that I just can't even begin to understand.

I have no idea, but if you find out, let me know. I've long been jealous of the youth work visas the canadians, new zealanders, brits, and australians share. I'd love to go back; I deeply miss my friends there, and some times face book and emails aren't enough.

 

[Mistoffeles]

Where are these higher paying countries and how easy is it for me to move there 😀 Haha. Totally joking but honestly curious. America is a great place, but we all know our economy is not in the best place right now. Gas in my town went up to $3.73 today...hot damn. I've also heard even lower numbers for some vet's in the UK, but those were more rural areas.

gas in the UK is currently at about $11.00 a gallon (with the exchange rate factored in). average salary for a starting graduate here is about $35,000 (with the exchange rate factored in). now, for a lot of rural practices, that includes a house and car (or possibly a shack and a POS that's been used for the past 15 years!), but it's not a lot even so.

of course, they don't have the same high loan burden here that we do in the states. even so, i see these salaries as vast undervaluing of our skills.

on the question of the AVMA accrediting foreign schools: someone asked if english language teaching was a requirement, and no it's not (in fact, the utrecht school site makes very clear that the course is taught in dutch). i'm actually in the midst of a very heated discussion/fight with a friend here about whether or not english language instruction *should* be a requirement for AVMA accreditation (it's spilled into a discussion about whether english is or is not, or should be, a "national language" for the US, which is an entire other debate, and i'm firmly on the "hell no" side of that one).

i have no issue with the AVMA accrediting foreign schools (heck, obvious, since i'm at one!) - but like sumstorm, i'd be a lot more comfortable with the UNAM accreditation if banfield had not been involved.

on the subject of work visas - ironically, skilled workers (professional) might find themselves with a harder time than so-called "non-skilled" in obtaining a temporary. if you can demonstrate that you're going there for further education, it might be easier, otherwise they might interpret you as trying to take a job from a national. i feel like this is not so much of an issue in the US, since our government doesn't tend (usually) to be fiercely protective of the "right" of our citizens to be granted work preference. for example, one of the student visa rules for the UK is that you may not work at a "career track" job, only casual. there's an entirely different set of rules for people who are doctors, dentists, etc., and being on a course definitely makes the process easier.

 

[pennyonthefloor]

The only thing I can think about while reading this thread is South Park...



THEY TOOK YER JERB!!!!

🤣

 

[dyachei]

LOL. when i was in asia it was not unusual to know vets that worked in Singapore or Hong Kong or Australia then took month long vacations to provide care in thier home country. Considering that while I was in Thailand, a dollar was ~45bahts, and that was the income many of the mahouts earned in a few days, it made far more sense for folks to work elsewhere then come home for visits.

Yup, I noticed this, too, when I worked in Singapore. There is a huge call for domestic services personnel and they typically come from the Philippines and send money back because even other countries in the area have better pay rates than some.

 

[PetPony]

Does anyone know a website where the admissions requirements to UNAM are in English? I'm learning Spanish, but it's still a bit hard to find and understand everything on their website. My boyfriend is Mexican and I know he'd like to go back to Mexico at one point, so I at least want to consider the school and put it on my list of possibilities...

 

[heylodeb]

Does anyone know a website where the admissions requirements to UNAM are in English? I'm learning Spanish, but it's still a bit hard to find and understand everything on their website. My boyfriend is Mexican and I know he'd like to go back to Mexico at one point, so I at least want to consider the school and put it on my list of possibilities...

Sorry, haven't looked into. I gotta be completely honest with you. If you can't translate/understand the admissions page- how do you plan on taking intensive difficult classes FILLED with words that the fluent Spanish speaker will barely recognize?

I think UNAM is really only an option for folks who are fluent already. I know you said you are learning Spanish but it's highly unlikely you'll be at comfort level to take graduate level college classwork in four years. (since IIRC- you are just starting college and this would take more time than I think you have since you are just starting your pre-reqs)


Just my unasked for $0.02. No offense intended just trying to be realistic!

 

[PetPony]

I thought I remembered something about classes being taught in English there. Maybe I was wrong. Sorry.

 

[RadRadTerp]

As someone whose father is from Mexico, I think it's cool that I might be able to visit UNAM at some point in the next 3 years to see family and perhaps meet some faculty over there, but I am also on the side that more schools and more veterinarians flooding the U.S. is a troublesome idea. Even if Mexican veterinarians only end up working for Banfield, that means that the American veterinarians that don't work for them will end up applying for jobs elsewhere and thus the remaining jobs will be under more competition. Now, there's nothing wrong with competition if you want to hire the best people, but it also means that salaries may not be as negotiable if you can hire qualified veterinarians for less.

 

[heylodeb]

I thought I remembered something about classes being taught in English there. Maybe I was wrong. Sorry.

No apology needed- but if they are teaching classes in English than that would definitely be worth looking into!

 

[PetPony]

I'm really good with languages (only took me about 3 or 4 months to speak English fluently when I moved to the States), so I think with great determination I could really learn the language better. I just gotta see if I'll have that determination after my job and college classes every day. So I'll see. Hahaha.

I don't know. Maybe I'll like it in Mexico then and stay there. My boyfriend told me that sometimes vets are really needed and make good money there. (I'm not sure what good money means there compared to other jobs..) But he said at the barns he's worked at, vets were greatly needed and seemed to live better than other people there.

But.. it's not about the money for me. It's nice that tuition is lower there, but I'd just as quickly accept an US school offer as I would at a Mexican school if it was the only one offered. So.. money is not the big deciding factor because either way, I wanna become a vet. Maybe I'll just look into accreditation in Germany and see if I can work there. lol

 

[TXvet]

I thought I remembered something about classes being taught in English there. Maybe I was wrong. Sorry.

I hope this is not the case. I can just see in few years that many US students will be applying to UNAM for the lower tuition/debt then coming back to the US for jobs. There are too many vets right now. I know people -new grads and not so new grads that cannot find a job. This is just going to add to the problem. You guys, the pre vets and vet students are the ones that need to speak up, it is your future on the line. I know it is not about the money but I can tell you from my own experience, after paying on your student loan for almost 10 years and not seeing the principle going down, it gets very depressing. I am lucky in that I paid mine off but am now catching up on retirment. If the market is further flooded salaries are going to tank even further.

 

[LetItSnow]

I hope this is not the case. I can just see in few years that many US students will be applying to UNAM for the lower tuition/debt then coming back to the US for jobs.

There's at least ONE positive side to that: U.S. schools could conceivably be forced to get serious about getting the cost of tuition+fees back under control if they had real competition like that. That's not really a glowing positive, but....

You guys, the pre vets and vet students are the ones that need to speak up, it is your future on the line.

That's completely true. But it would be nice to have some assistance from established vets who have contacts, years of experience, potential influence, etc. I think this needs to be seen - and addressed - as an industry problem, not only a problem to be solved by whichever crop of students is currently in school. Even if it's a matter of some industry-experienced vets saying "this is what *I'd* do if I were you," that would be valuable guidance.

Just as one example, changes in academia could dramatically impact the quality of associates you might be looking to hire sometime. So it's not just an issue for students.

It bugs me that I sound like I'm "disagreeing" with you since, really, I don't disagree in the least with what you said.