Native American documentation

[MoosePilot]

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Ok, bear with me, this is a strange question.

My family is extremely odd. I didn't have a smooth childhood and the same is true of both of my parents. I've only ever met one grandparent.

My mother says her grandmother or greatgrandmother was full blooded Cherokee. That would give her somewhere around 1/4 - 1/8 background. My mother says there is no documentation, they avoided being listed on the rolls because they thought it was some scam by the government to hurt them in some way.

I've heard that my dad's mom was also of Native American descent. I heard tonight from my Uncle that she was 1/4 Chickasaw (not sure of the tribe, but that's what he thought. That would give my dad 1/8 background.

So I might be between 3/16 - 1/8. Does that matter to med school admissions? How do I prove it? If I need documentation, are there investigators that specialize in this sort of thing?

It might make a real difference to my chances of admission. If you have any info or sources to research further, please let me know. Thanks.

 

[virilep]

I would call the AMCAS number and get the info directly from them. gluck

 

[premedgeek]

Ok, bear with me, this is a strange question.

My family is extremely odd. I didn't have a smooth childhood and the same is true of both of my parents. I've only ever met one grandparent.

My mother says her grandmother or greatgrandmother was full blooded Cherokee. That would give her somewhere around 1/4 - 1/8 background. My mother says there is no documentation, they avoided being listed on the rolls because they thought it was some scam by the government to hurt them in some way.

I've heard that my dad's mom was also of Native American descent. I heard tonight from my Uncle that she was 1/4 Chickasaw (not sure of the tribe, but that's what he thought. That would give my dad 1/8 background.

So I might be between 3/16 - 1/8. Does that matter to med school admissions? How do I prove it? If I need documentation, are there investigators that specialize in this sort of thing?

It might make a real difference to my chances of admission. If you have any info or sources to research further, please let me know. Thanks.

haha, nice one. 🙄

 

[MoosePilot]

I'm totally serious.

 

[premedgeek]

I'm totally serious.

My apologies. 😳

 

[Birdyman]

Wow, MoosePilot! That's amazing! I have been told almost the exact same story by my parents since I was young, except that it was all on my father's side (both Cherokee and Chickasaw). Also, my mother (who was adopted) has recently tracked down her biological mothers family, and she found that one of the grandparents from that side was Cherokee. Of course, there is no documentation. Anyway, I don't know how much it might help for med school; but, I did have a friend tell me a story of someone getting in Officer's Candidate School by specifying "1/8 Native American", after having been rejected twice ... with a grain of salt, of course. Actually, it fleetingly crossed my mind when I was filling out AMCAS, but I was determined to get in without playing that card. That's just me, though.

BTW, are you from the southeast?

 

[1Path]

One of my great-great grandmothers is full blooded Cherokee also, but because I identify primarily with African American culture, I don't "claim it" as part of my background. Seems a bit unethical to do so otherwise.

 

[MadameLULU]

I think it's awesome that you're trying to uncover your heritage, but I question your motive. I think tactics like these do a disservice to policies aiming to increase representation among URMS. If you do not identify with the Native American culture or genuinely intend on approving the health status and conditions of Native Americans, why claim it? I think claiming it to give you an "edge" in the admissions process is unethical and I wouldn't be surprised if adcoms see through it.

 

[true blue]

I think it's awesome that you're trying to uncover your heritage, but I question your motive. I think tactics like these do a disservice to policies aiming to increase representation among URMS. If you do not identify with the Native American culture or genuinely intend on approving the health status and conditions of Native Americans, why claim it? I think claiming it to give you an "edge" in the admissions process is unethical and I wouldn't be surprised if adcoms see through it.

Gotta agree with this.

How will this factor into your practice of medicine?

 

[DeterminedMD]

I also have wondered this. I actually started wondering at a young age because I knew I had native american blood and was interested in the culture. Howvere, I was never able to prove it, etc because my father never met his father and we dont know where he is. Anyway, if I remember correctly, you must be 1/4 native american in order to register and you go through some sortof tribal council thing. I dont remember specifics as I looked a about 10 -15 years ago. But I am prettuy sure about habing to be 1/4 native american.

 

[Mistress S]

Moosepilot, I think it is true that the cutoff for federal recognition of tribal membership is at least 1/4. Also, unlike other URM's, native americans can and therefore are expected to prove their membership in a tribe to adcoms through documentation of tribal rolls. Because of the government benefits available to native americans, there are stricter requirements to become a tribe member. A friend who is native american applied to med school several years ago and got several acceptances with only a 25 MCAT, however she was 1/4 blood and was able to document this for adcoms. She was also somewhat involved with her tribe and was expected to discuss her cultural involvement in essays and interviews. I think adcoms do expect you to provide documentation of this (and 3/16 to 1/8 would not be enough to be considered a member of a tribe), and would definitely frown on someone using this status for a leg up in admissions without any connection to the culture (i.e., finding long-lost relations to provide a tenous connection to a minority culture right before applying). So I don't think you can claim this status anyway--I mean, think about it, how many families in the US have some story about grandparents and great-grandparents who are native american, and can't verify it--but even if you could, I would advise against exploiting a weak connection to a culture that has already been very much exploited just to gain an edge in med school admissions. I'm sure you'll do well enough on your own merits that you do not need to resort to such tactics.

 

[MD'05]

Ok, bear with me, this is a strange question.

My family is extremely odd. I didn't have a smooth childhood and the same is true of both of my parents. I've only ever met one grandparent.

My mother says her grandmother or greatgrandmother was full blooded Cherokee. That would give her somewhere around 1/4 - 1/8 background. My mother says there is no documentation, they avoided being listed on the rolls because they thought it was some scam by the government to hurt them in some way.

I've heard that my dad's mom was also of Native American descent. I heard tonight from my Uncle that she was 1/4 Chickasaw (not sure of the tribe, but that's what he thought. That would give my dad 1/8 background.

So I might be between 3/16 - 1/8. Does that matter to med school admissions? How do I prove it? If I need documentation, are there investigators that specialize in this sort of thing?

It might make a real difference to my chances of admission. If you have any info or sources to research further, please let me know. Thanks.

From what I understand, in the past persons with 1/8 indian blood could qualify for "Indian money" from the Federal government. This was without proving tribal connections. However, like the above poster indicates, you would have to show tribal connections for medical school, from what I understand.

 

[OrthoFixation]

I asked AMCAS this very question about URM qualifications. They said it is totally self-reporting and self-policing. There is no validation process on the application front. Some schools require documentation, while others do not. The cut-off for tribal affiliation depends on the tribe and can be 1/8 to 1/4 minimum.

Major Indian scholarship money is available, up to $20K per year at the 1/4 blood level. I don't recall any service requirements.

Texas doesn't currently consider ethnicity, but will beginning next year since the court decisions of the last year or so.

 

[Dr Turninkoff]

Ok, bear with me, this is a strange question.

My family is extremely odd. I didn't have a smooth childhood and the same is true of both of my parents. I've only ever met one grandparent.

My mother says her grandmother or greatgrandmother was full blooded Cherokee. That would give her somewhere around 1/4 - 1/8 background. My mother says there is no documentation, they avoided being listed on the rolls because they thought it was some scam by the government to hurt them in some way.

I've heard that my dad's mom was also of Native American descent. I heard tonight from my Uncle that she was 1/4 Chickasaw (not sure of the tribe, but that's what he thought. That would give my dad 1/8 background.

So I might be between 3/16 - 1/8. Does that matter to med school admissions? How do I prove it? If I need documentation, are there investigators that specialize in this sort of thing?

It might make a real difference to my chances of admission. If you have any info or sources to research further, please let me know. Thanks.

you get free college in oklahoma with 1/8. i'm 1/16, but also undocumented because of the rolls. i wouldn't press the issue my red-skinned brother, because they probably won't listen. 😉

 

[MoosePilot]

Ok, too many good posts to answer:

1. The federal government lets the tribes determine their own requirements for tribal membership. At least one of the three Cherokee tribes lists its requirement as only 1/16.

2. Why would culture have anything to do with this? Does an African American student have to prove he's part of the African American culture? No? Of course not.

3. I'm going to look into it because it's important to me to know. I'm from Oklahoma btw, for whoever asked where I was from.

 

[MoosePilot]

Gotta agree with this.

How will this factor into your practice of medicine?

Would a 100% African American student have to answer this? Is AA about how it's going to affect your future or how it might have affected your past? Or is it an outdated concept? Either way, if the rules are there, I'm going to investigate them.

 

[MadameLULU]

Would a 100% African American student have to answer this?

I'm an African American female, and I was asked this during a couple interviews. Are you doing this just for admissions purposes or are you geniunely interested in knowing about your heritage? In any case, even if you do provide a connection right before you apply, I think adcoms would be suspicious.

 

[Mistress S]

2. Why would culture have anything to do with this? Does an African American student have to prove he's part of the African American culture? No? Of course not.

For most african-american students, their culture is very much a part of their identity, and by virtue of skin color (in the vast majority of cases) his or her membership in this culture will be evident and hence will not need to be proven. In cases where doubt exists (i.e., very light-skinned african americans), I would not be at all surprised if they were asked by adcoms about their background to justify their choice of racial identification. Med schools are concerned about increasing the number of students who are members of underrepresented minorities in order to promote diversity and train doctors who are more aware of cultural differences and more likely to serve their in communities, be it black, hispanic, or native american. What would you bring to them in this sense, as a caucasian student who recently discovered some traces of native american ancestry and is now trying to claim that status purely for personal gain? If you claim you are native american and can back this up at least with tribal membership, you can probably get by at some schools, although I personally think this kind of exploitation is somewhat reprehensible. If you can't get officially recognized by a tribe, adcoms are going to see right through your ploy, and those that require documentation will automatically reject you if you make this claim and can't back it up. Either way, you risk being seen through when you are asked about your "native american" status in essays and interviews. I'm sure you have worked hard and have good credentials (GPA, MCAT, EC's) to show for that, work on presenting the best app you can based on what you've done to earn a spot in medical school rather than trying to exploit a weak connection to a minority group for such a shallow reason.

 

[OrthoFixation]

I bet you that no one asked light colored black applicants if they had any white bloodlines.

Who's to say that the indian heritage has limited your family achievement in the past. It has been well proven that educational level of your parents is a major determining factor in your life.

We don't define the rules, only play the game. If you can benefit by the politically correct rules, then do so. Flame away.

 

[MoosePilot]

For most african-american students, their culture is very much a part of their identity, and by virtue of skin color (in the vast majority of cases) his or her membership in this culture will be evident and hence will not need to be proven. In cases where doubt exists (i.e., very light-skinned african americans), I would not be at all surprised if they were asked by adcoms about their background to justify their choice of racial identification. Med schools are concerned about increasing the number of students who are members of underrepresented minorities in order to promote diversity and train doctors who are more aware of cultural differences and more likely to serve their in communities, be it black, hispanic, or native american. What would you bring to them in this sense, as a caucasian student who recently discovered some traces of native american ancestry and is now trying to claim that status purely for personal gain? If you claim you are native american and can back this up at least with tribal membership, you can probably get by at some schools, although I personally think this kind of exploitation is somewhat reprehensible. If you can't get officially recognized by a tribe, adcoms are going to see right through your ploy, and those that require documentation will automatically reject you if you make this claim and can't back it up. Either way, you risk being seen through when you are asked about your "native american" status in essays and interviews. I'm sure you have worked hard and have good credentials (GPA, MCAT, EC's) to show for that, work on presenting the best app you can based on what you've done to earn a spot in medical school rather than trying to exploit a weak connection to a minority group for such a shallow reason.

You keep saying "see through this". I'll say plainly that it's not my fault that I'm not connected. Like I said, I've only ever met one grandparent. My mother was abused to the point where she doesn't talk about her life, my dad grew up at his grandmother's house after his parents divorced. I left home for the foster system when I was 14... I'm really sorry I'm not involved with the Native American culture to the extent you'd like, but you know something - I really don't care what you think. I won't lie and the adcoms can make of this sort of thing what they will.

If I can't document anything then it remains family legend and rumor to me. If I can, then it's a legitimate part of my background, no matter when I confirmed it.

 

[MD'05]

Ok, too many good posts to answer:

1. The federal government lets the tribes determine their own requirements for tribal membership. At least one of the three Cherokee tribes lists its requirement as only 1/16.

2. Why would culture have anything to do with this? Does an African American student have to prove he's part of the African American culture? No? Of course not.

3. I'm going to look into it because it's important to me to know. I'm from Oklahoma btw, for whoever asked where I was from.

Go for it. You might even get the costs of medical education reimbursed if you stay in OK and practice medicine.

 

[MoosePilot]

Interesting addendum - I was getting family background from my mom and it got her interested. She looked at her birth certificate. She was born at home before the ambulance got there. Her mom's race is listed simply as "indian". How funny that I had no idea of that.

 

[Mistress S]

You keep saying "see through this". I'll say plainly that it's not my fault that I'm not connected. Like I said, I've only ever met one grandparent. My mother was abused to the point where she doesn't talk about her life, my dad grew up at his grandmother's house after his parents divorced. I left home for the foster system when I was 14... I'm really sorry I'm not involved with the Native American culture to the extent you'd like, but you know something - I really don't care what you think. I won't lie and the adcoms can make of this sort of thing what they will.

If I can't document anything then it remains family legend and rumor to me. If I can, then it's a legitimate part of my background, no matter when I confirmed it.

Then it sounds like you should apply disadvantaged, not native american. If you can document it, then go ahead--who knows if it will help or hurt given that you have no ties to the group you are claiming to be a part of, but if that doesn't bother adcoms as others have pointed out you may be able to benefit from it. BTW, this isn't about your involvement not being "to the extent I would like", it's about having any involvement at all, and also about being involved to the satisfaction of adcoms who likely will want to know about this if you claim to be native american. It's your app and your time/money to pursue this potential part of your past, I just think people shouldn't claim membership in a group they have razor-thin (if any) ties to purely for personal gain. Exploring it for your own knowledge in one thing, trying to ferret out 1/8 or 3/16 or whatever bloodlines to gain an advantage is med school admissions is entirely another.

 

[MoosePilot]

Then it sounds like you should apply disadvantaged, not native american. If you can document it, then go ahead--who knows if it will help or hurt given that you have no ties to the group you are claiming to be a part of, but if that doesn't bother adcoms as others have pointed out you may be able to benefit from it. BTW, this isn't about your involvement not being "to the extent I would like", it's about having any involvement at all, and also about being involved to the satisfaction of adcoms who likely will want to know about this if you claim to be native american. It's your app and your time/money to pursue this potential part of your past, I just think people shouldn't claim membership in a group they have razor-thin (if any) ties to purely for personal gain. Exploring it for your own knowledge in one thing, trying to ferret out 1/8 or 3/16 or whatever bloodlines to gain an advantage is med school admissions is entirely another.

I still don't get your stance. If I was African American, would I have to be involved in the culture? Is there a culture? There is a definite separation between race and culture. My friends adopted a little girl from China. She's always going to be racially Chinese, but culturally American (white I suppose). If an African American family were to adopt a white child, would he qualify for AA? He would suffer from whatever hardships other children in the household do, but isn't dark skinned.

 

[Mistress S]

I'm not going to debate AA--that's a tired argument on these boards--and I'm certainly not going to debate the existence of an african-american culture, something I (and I would wager you as well) know little about. I think I've made myself pretty clear: I feel exploiting weak blood connections to a culture you have no involvement with solely for personal gain is wrong. I'm sorry if this was somehow vague in my other posts. If you can document your native american status and have no moral qualms with using it in this way, go right ahead. If you can't document it but claim it anyway, I think you will risk hurting yourself more than helping with med school admissions, as you may be asked to produce documentation and will look like a liar if you can't. Either way, it's your choice, I've just told you what I think about it, which is what you asked people to do when you started this thread. Good luck to you in admissions process, however you go about it.

 

[indo]

I think everyone should have to prove that they are what they say they are. "It says here you are white. Are you actively participating in white culture? Let me see a picture of you holding a Starbucks cup and show me how you dance badly to the Dixie Chicks."

I have an ethnic background similar to Moose's. I have two Indian grandparents. Here's the thing with being "involved" with my culture... The only way people will still consider you native american is if you live on some broke-ass, alcoholism-prone reservation and can track a buffalo by smell. I'm not moving to Oglala just to be considered native american nor am I going to move to an inner city housing project to experience that aspect of being native american.

Or, I could hang out at the Native American Center on campus. I've been in there...no native american people, just hippies and those "earthy" types who think they're in touch with nature because they have that black and white picture of Chief RunningHorse memorized.

 

[1Path]

I bet you that no one asked light colored black applicants if they had any white bloodlines.

Perhaps the reason is because with many light skinned blacks, it's obvious that they have white bloodlines.

IAlong these lines, why is it that 1/100,000 African blood makes you black but 1/16th doesn't make you Native American or white??? 😕 Now that's some fuzzy math for your arse!!!

 

[Mistress S]

Cultural involvement doesn't have to mean something so extreme--the friend I mentioned earlier discussed her participation in tribal events and knowledge of her culture and its struggles through her family when asked in interviews/essays. Her father was an orthopedic surgeon, so it wasn't like she grew up struggling on a reservation. Did you apply as native american indo? Do you have documentation? If so I'm surprised you haven't had more luck this year, it seemed to really help my friend out when she applied. I don't think adcoms expect you to be able to "track buffalo by smell", just provide documentation and some connection to the culture that you claim to be a part of.

 

[Mistress S]

IAlong these lines, why is it that 1/100,000 African blood makes you black but 1/16th doesn't make you Native American or white??? 😕 Now that's some fuzzy math for your arse!!!

Does 1/100,000 African blood make you black? If so, we should probably all be applying as URM. Seriously, I would raise the same concerns with someone who posted they were white and their parents were white, and probably their grandparents too, but somewhere way back there they've heard a family rumor that a grandparent or great-grandparent had some african blood and now they want to call themselves african-american on AMCAS. It is kind of unfair that native americans have to document while anyone could claim to be black and no one could definitively disprove this, but since it is the only minority group I'm aware of that has an actual governmental procedure to define membership it doesn't seem unfair for adcoms to ask people claiming to be a part of this group to produce such documentation. Also, I think someone who applied as black because they had one black great-grandparent and everyone else in their family was white would be looked down on by adcoms if this came out, while someone who is only 1/8 native american but has tribal membership wouldn't be questioned, so perhaps it is unfair in the other direction as well. Okay, I think I've had enough of this thread. 🙂

 

[1Path]

Does 1/100,000 African blood make you black? If so, we should probably all be applying as URM.Okay, I think I've had enough of this thread. 🙂

My point exactly, technically most of us perhaps 90%% would be URM!!

I do agree 100% with the points you make though. However, I wonder how many people here are going to feel like the OP has a seat in med school he doesn't deserve if his heritage helps him get in??? Just from the little bit he's revealed about himself in the Non trads forum, I'm a bit suprised to find out he's having problems.

 

[MoosePilot]

My point exactly, technically most of us perhaps 90%% would be URM!!

I do agree 100% with the points you make though. However, I wonder how many people here are going to feel like the OP has a seat in med school he doesn't deserve if his heritage helps him get in??? Just from the little bit he's revealed about himself in the Non trads forum, I'm a bit suprised to find out he's having problems.

I'm not having any problems. That's just the thing, why should what I put down under race be because I'm having problems?

I expect my application process to go fine no matter what I put. My GPA is a little below average, but it was almost 10 years ago (will be 10 years at matriculation). My MCAT is well above average.

That's not the point. My maternal great grandfather was a full Cherokee and my paternal grandmother was probably quarter Chickasaw. I'm just wondering what bearing that may have and how to document it. That's all.

Edit: I am having to wait a year to apply, but that's military. I haven't been rejected anywhere this year, I just had to stop the process because the military wouldn't release me yet.

 

[1Path]

It might make a real difference to my chances of admission. If you have any info or sources to research further, please let me know. Thanks.

My apologies for the assumption. They were based on YOUR first statement.

I'm interested in people who were accepted into Hopkins with below 30 MCAT's because I may well be in that category when I apply this summer. Obviously this type of reasoning doesn't apply to everyone.

Good luck either way!

PS- For clarifications, I'd guess that if you were a strong candidate and I'm basing this on the uniquness of your background balancing out the GPA issue, then being able to claim Native American blood should make you a shoo in for med school.

 

[true blue]

You keep saying "see through this". I'll say plainly that it's not my fault that I'm not connected. Like I said, I've only ever met one grandparent. My mother was abused to the point where she doesn't talk about her life, my dad grew up at his grandmother's house after his parents divorced. I left home for the foster system when I was 14... I'm really sorry I'm not involved with the Native American culture to the extent you'd like, but you know something - I really don't care what you think. I won't lie and the adcoms can make of this sort of thing what they will.

If I can't document anything then it remains family legend and rumor to me. If I can, then it's a legitimate part of my background, no matter when I confirmed it.

I think the adcom would be more impressed with how you have succeeded in spite of your childhood than what race you are. 🙄

 

[MoosePilot]

I think the adcom would be more impressed with how you have succeeded in spite of your childhood than what race you are. 🙄

You think so, huh? The numbers don't seem to bear that out, but maybe it's something you can't tell from numbers. I think it's important because I believe at many schools I won't even get past a simple screen based on a GPA minimum. I'm not planning on applying to any that I know do that, so I don't anticpate having any problems, but it's still a really screwed up system.

 

[true blue]

You think so, huh? The numbers don't seem to bear that out, but maybe it's something you can't tell from numbers. I think it's important because I believe at many schools I won't even get past a simple screen based on a GPA minimum. I'm not planning on applying to any that I know do that, so I don't anticpate having any problems, but it's still a really screwed up system.

I think you are absolutely right about how screwed up the system is. I also think that your upbringing shaped your desire to pursue medicine more so than your race. I am not trying to be negative. I think you have an advantage....I just don't think it's your race.

I really admire those who are able to overcome hardships and succeed....such as you.

 

[MoosePilot]

I think you are absolutely right about how screwed up the system is. I also think that your upbringing shaped your desire to pursue medicine more so than your race. I am not trying to be negative. I think you have an advantage....I just don't think it's your race.

I really admire those who are able to overcome hardships and succeed....such as you.

Thanks, that's very kind of you.

I appreciate all the input. Right now I'm leaning towards continuing to research and document. If I can, I'm going to get to the point of tribal membership. If I do get that far, I'll probably designate Native American and White both on any forms I fill out from that point on. If I don't get that far, I'll probably just continue to put down what I always have.

 

[Lindyhopper]

. . . family background from my mom and it got her interested. She looked at her birth certificate. She was born at home before the ambulance got there. Her mom's race is listed simply as "indian".

Although you should continuing collecting documentation, it seems this is at least a colorable claim to being 1/4 Native American. 👍 The idea that asserting this "weak" claim to your hertiage will somehow hurt you seems crazy. Remember we don't make up the rules, we just play by them.

 

[deuist]

Here are the rules (I'm 1/8 Cherokee):

You have to be at least 1/16 and registered to be recognized by the government and to receive federal aid. However, if you are not registered with the tribe, you can still claim to be Native American so long as you also list your other ethnicities (I'm Caucasian and American Indian) and do not apply for programs that require a Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood.

For the purposes of AMCAS however, the racial box is a self decription. You can mark that you're a Native American for medical school admissions. Be forewarned, some interviewers will ask you about your heritage. You should be completely honest in saying that you are only part American Indian and that you are not seeking federal funding. (You can still get minority funding through the university.)

Finally, go out and get a tan. No one will believe that you're a Native if you're as white as an Irish man.