NBDE score sufficient for OMFS

[Yah-E]

Would a private omfs letter describing these accomplishments still be worthless to you?

I believe you definitely have an non-traditional background amongst traditional OMFS applicants. Your clinical experiences are nice and dandy, but my question for you is what was your Part 1 score and class rank? Believe it or not, those number will come into play in the application process and just may bite you in the @ss. Heck, your undergraduate GPA may come back too to bite you in the @ss. Unfortunately, applying to OMFS is still a numbers game first and then experiences second.

By the way, did you apply this year or are you planning to apply to OMFS?

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[Ankylosed]

Part of it is when you are in a residency and a patient comes sent by an private practice guy because it came to him at 5 pm or because the patient didn't have insurance or something. The patient has to come all the way to the emergency room, get charged a ton of money, for 4 stitches.

My beef with some (not all) OMFS in private practice is that you work your butt off to get skills and then you go out into private practice and don't do anything but implants and 3rds. It is, in a way, a sad thing to see that they don't want to take a lick of trauma, or provide care that you are well trained to do. For society it is a waste to have your position (residency) subsidized by tax money and then not offer the service at all because it is an "encroachment" on your life. Our specialty has faught for decades to retain privileges and defend our scope but some private practice guys are willing to give it away in 2 seconds. "Trauma call? Heck no, not me." Even if it is only a week or even a few days a month! Some OMFS people still want to be dentists- 32 hour work week, not provide services you are well trained to do, refuse to help anyone if they don't have cash up front, not get a little dirty....I am not a liberal by a long shot (although I have at times wished I could shoot a few liberals), but there has to be some altruism to what we do...sometimes do something right even if it is a sacrifice of time or income... AHHHHHHHH--CRASH.... I fell off of my soap box, must be time to stop griping.

Many of the issues I see with omfs not wanting to take call stems from hospital issues which directly affect the omfs. One big issue right now is that all the ENTs are dropping their call first, so the omfs in my community get called in for every mandible and midface trauma(which is supposed to be shared by ent and plastics). I don't mind participating in multiple malar and nasal fx's a week, but the surgeons get a little pissed staying up all night and not getting paid. Then they must either miss their office hours or work through them dead tired. Another issue is with neurosurgical coverage in the ER. Many of the neuros are also dropping call, so this leaves the sole responsibility of evaluating head trauma to the omfs. This is just plain wrong and a huge liability for EVERYONE. Also, our level II hospital has become a dumping ground for many patients and what does the hospital do? They built a new ER, idiots! The ER is hemorrhaging money at an uncontrollable pace. With all this going on, I can see why many omfs are dropping their call. A resolution that takes the burden off the omfs and puts it onto the hospital must be made.

 

[MAXFAC]

You can make a load of money doing just T&T(Teeth & Titanium) without adding the third T i.e. tauma, but this is not the case for all the states, I spoke to my ex-chief resident who is in private practice out in Las Vegas, he told me that he is fighting to take trauma call because he can get paid $900 per day for taking call in addition to any insurance reimbursement, and the call is q12 days.
I agree with Esclavo, it's a shame to waste the skills of doing the complex maxillofacial procedures just because you can make a sh**t load of money doing T&T, I think if every OMFS practices the full scope, things will eventually change.

 

[Ankylosed]

I believe you definitely have an non-traditional background amongst traditional OMFS applicants. Your clinical experiences are nice and dandy, but my question for you is what was your Part 1 score and class rank? Believe it or not, those number will come into play in the application process and just may bite you in the @ss. Unfortunately, applying to OMFS is still a numbers game first and then experiences second.


I'm not disputing this at all. I am knowledgeable about what it takes to get into omfs (boards,externships, rank, research, etc.), or I thought I was i.e. Part I 97-98 !ouch! Fortunately, I have been guided toward this field by some outstanding surgeons and other providers. OMFS guys are the coolest, most talented, and obviously shrewdest business people out there (and no my daddy isn't a dentist). Sorry I can't drop any board scores on you just yet, I just wanted to see the opinions about the worth of these LOR's. I didn't know the they were not really considered. Wether the general opinion is negative or not, I still plan to submit private practice omfs LOR's. Good luck to all of you on match day.

 

[esclavo]

I believe you definitely have an non-traditional background amongst traditional OMFS applicants. Your clinical experiences are nice and dandy, but my question for you is what was your Part 1 score and class rank? Believe it or not, those number will come into play in the application process and just may bite you in the @ss. Unfortunately, applying to OMFS is still a numbers game first and then experiences second.


I'm not disputing this at all. I am knowledgeable about what it takes to get into omfs (boards,externships, rank, research, etc.), or I thought I was i.e. Part I 97-98 !ouch! Fortunately, I have been guided toward this field by some outstanding surgeons and other providers. OMFS guys are the coolest, most talented, and obviously shrewdest business people out there (and no my daddy isn't a dentist). Sorry I can't drop any board scores on you just yet, I just wanted to see the opinions about the worth of these LOR's. I didn't know the they were not really considered. Wether the general opinion is negative or not, I still plan to submit private practice omfs LOR's. Good luck to all of you on match day.

I think LOR from private practice guys is a mistake. You really only get 3 letters. If you are using those up on private practice guys who haven't seen you in a residency evironment (ie. rounding at 4 in the morning working 14 straight days without leaving the hospital) then you are wasting the letters that could and should be written by academic people where you do your externships. 3 days in an externship is worth about 3 years hanging out in private practice in terms of being able to evaluate your potential to handle the residency environment. We value private practice OMFS letters about as equal as an academic periodontist-in other words a waste. We don't really read them. I don't think too many programs are much different. I'll take a guy with a 90 and 3 objective LOR's from academic (program directors, fulll time faculty and chairmen of programs) than a guy with a 98 and his "hometown OMFS guy writing grandiose things in a letter". You end up neutralizing whatever excellent things you have on your application. When I get an application from a dental school, I expect to see letters from that schools OMFS faculty. I alway, ALWAYS ask myself why not if the applicant has letters from the faculty pedodontist or periodontist or a private practice OMFS. Then you get two guys from the same dental school and one has letters from all the right people (program director, chairman, full-time faculty), I start to have doubts about the other guy even if he has good board scores. I think something must be up. This guy is trying to sneak in the back door instead of knocking on the front door waiting to be invited in.

 

[Yah-E]

Having just gone through the whole application process and interviews, is it just me or you get a feeling that interviewing faculty members doesn't even really look at your application file until the day of the interview?

Exception of being the residency program director and some residents (according to some SDN OMFS guys such as TX OMS, esclavo, OMFSCard), these are the only people that really thoroughly read through our applications.

I don't know how many times I sit before the interviewers, all they do is flip through that application folder like it's a speed reading contest! When they open the application folder, they immediately look at the front PASS summary sheet to see your numbers and then it's flip pages glore! This is what I believe, most interviewers will only see your application on the day of the interview except for the people I mentioned earlier. When they do actually flip through your application folder, these are the order of importance of documents they look at (it seems like):

[they start flipping]
1) PASS summary sheet
2) CV - they actually read this (they tend to ask a lot of questions from this piece of paper)
3) look at who wrote your letters/PASS Evaluation sheets (if they find a renown OMFS who wrote you a letter, then they'll actually scam it really fast)
4) then they flip through it backwards and then flip through it again some more



C'mon, how many of you have witnessed and experienced the same thing during your interviews? It really is a flipping contest. They ask you a question and flip through your application file at the same time!

 

[esclavo]

Having just gone through the whole application process and interviews, is it just me or you get a feeling that interviewing faculty members doesn't even really look at your application file until the day of the interview?

Exception of being the residency program director and some residents (according to some SDN OMFS guys such as TX OMS, esclavo, OMFSCard), these are the only people that really thoroughly read through our applications.

I don't know how many times I sit before the interviewers, all they do is flip through that application folder like it's a speed reading contest! When they open the application folder, they immediately look at the front PASS summary sheet to see your numbers and then it's flip pages glore! This is what I believe, most interviewers will only see your application on the day of the interview except for the people I mentioned earlier. When they do actually flip through your application folder, these are the order of importance of documents they look at (it seems like):

[they start flipping]
1) PASS summary sheet
2) CV - they actually read this (they tend to ask a lot of questions from this piece of paper)
3) look at who wrote your letters/PASS Evaluation sheets (if they find a renown OMFS who wrote you a letter, then they'll actually scam it really fast)
4) then they flip through it backwards and then flip through it again some more



C'mon, how many of you have witnessed and experienced the same thing during your interviews? It really is a flipping contest. They ask you a question and flip through your application file at the same time!

It isn't the "browser" who have the most weight in your ultimate match. It is those of us (whether it be residents or faculty) who know your application pretty darn well. It is a huge risk (at least in my program) to bring in a guy you have any questions/doubts about.

We actually make it easy on our faculty and we make a flow sheet that sums up your application. They can then look in the application if they like. I can put in a very small space your board scores, class rank, externship/internship experiences, names of recommenders, and a few personal things. That takes about 1/8 of a page. Then the faculty have a cheat sheet. The interesting thing is that the advice I got from the program chair at my dental school OMFS department has held true. He told me that to apply to OMFS from my dental school without his letter of recommendation could bring great suspicion about my application. He said other program directors would wonder about me without his assessment of my potential. I thought that was an odd statement. I don't now. I know exactly what he is talking about.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

C'mon, how many of you have witnessed and experienced the same thing during your interviews? It really is a flipping contest. They ask you a question and flip through your application file at the same time!

I read them, but I couldn't remember everything in twenty packets. It's hard to keep them all from blending together. I would flip through them during the interviews, too, but more for purposes of review. Furthermore, the applications are read and interviews granted long before the actual interview date. I don't think you can expect a program director to remember everything over that time period.

 

[DentistBunaHay]

To be quite honest, I believe it's a financial issue. There is actually a shortage of surgeons going into academia, so this is not a reason more surgeons go into private practice. What it comes down to is lifestyle. You have to make a choice between either working longer hours, having more responsibilities (more complex surgeries, administration issues, academic achievements, etc.), and taking a financial hit, or working less hours, still doing some interesting surgeries, and getting significantly more financial compensation. After putting in 4-6 years of grueling work and effort, it's hard to pass up the opportunity to live super comfortably afterward (not to say you can't live comfortably in academia; academics do quite well for the most part). However, I agree that it's also hard to pass up the opportunity to do more complex surgeries on a regular basis. But, this is decided on an individual basis. So, what I'm trying to get at is money and lifestyle can be intense influences on our field. Even those who are gung ho academics going into residency can easily get swayed during their training because of family, societal, and personal influences. Granted, it can certainly go the other way. I'm going in (as long as the MATCH gods smile on me ) with an open mind wanting the opportunity to teach and do more complex surgeries, but also being realistic about the potential to go into private practice. I don't think anyone should be bashed for going into private practice. Most general dentists go into private practicel. Is it a waste that a great general dentist goes into private practice?? No. They are doing well by their patients and by themselves. As the old saying goes, "opinions are like dinguses... everyone's got one". This is just mine. Only 40 more days till MATCH !!

Thanks a lot for the clear up... so i guess it's the cash that gets to people. At one of my interviews, I had an about 1 and a half hour long interview with a oral pathologist in the faculty. I kept asking him questions and questions about practicing OMFSs. The key things that he kept emphasizing were that the OMFS in the hospitals just don't have the authority that they used to before. For example, they can't decide and actually carry out their pre-operative plans because the ENT or neuro guys will jump in and suggest something else. He was telling me that in the big serious cases, the neuro and ENT guys will have more say in the procedures that will take place. He also told me that this is one of the big reasons why the applicants every year in OMFS are decreasing. I don't know how much of this is true but it really made me hate those bastards (ENTs and neuros). I volunteer at a cardiac center and everytime i see any ENTs and neuros around, I get so pissed, i wanna beat em' down I used to junior pro box, so I could punch em' and cause some serious TMJ disorders, so they would have to goto the OMFS. Anyways, how much of this is really true, do you guys feel that in the hospital based residencies at all?

 

[Stanford Fencer]

Thanks a lot for the clear up... so i guess it's the cash that gets to people. At one of my interviews, I had an about 1 and a half hour long interview with a oral pathologist in the faculty. I kept asking him questions and questions about practicing OMFSs. The key things that he kept emphasizing were that the OMFS in the hospitals just don't have the authority that they used to before. For example, they can't decide and actually carry out their pre-operative plans because the ENT or neuro guys will jump in and suggest something else. He was telling me that in the big serious cases, the neuro and ENT guys will have more say in the procedures that will take place. He also told me that this is one of the big reasons why the applicants every year in OMFS are decreasing. I don't know how much of this is true but it really made me hate those bastards (ENTs and neuros). I volunteer at a cardiac center and everytime i see any ENTs and neuros around, I get so pissed, i wanna beat em' down I used to junior pro box, so I could punch em' and cause some serious TMJ disorders, so they would have to goto the OMFS. Anyways, how much of this is really true, do you guys feel that in the hospital based residencies at all?

I have heard that at programs like Oregon, they have a few OMFS attending that are dual OMFS/ENT or OMFS/Plastics trained. Hopefully the gap in certain areas between OMFS and ENT won't be so glaring in the future. That being said, I doubt that at places like Parkland, their OMFS has issues with ENT. Don't they own them down there? And one more point, I also hope that internationally, OMFS from certain academic circles (ie. England, Germany) will work more closely with OMFS in the US. In England, esp., their OMFS do more of the bigger H/N cases than their ENT's (though even that may be rapidly closing).

 

[toofache32]

...He was telling me that in the big serious cases, the neuro and ENT guys will have more say in the procedures that will take place. He also told me that this is one of the big reasons why the applicants every year in OMFS are decreasing...

I've never seen that. What is ENT doing on a OMFS/ Neuro case?

 

[jstars11]

Having just gone through the whole application process and interviews, is it just me or you get a feeling that interviewing faculty members doesn't even really look at your application file until the day of the interview?

I totally disagree. I felt like there were very few places that did not read my application file. In fact, a lot of the faculty, residents, and office staff knew me better then I did. Some of them could even quote large portions of my personal statement. And some program directors even call all their buddies that may know you and ask about you. It's scary because some really do their homework! I don't really know if that's a good or a bad thing.

 

[GatorDMD]

Having just gone through the whole application process and interviews, is it just me or you get a feeling that interviewing faculty members doesn't even really look at your application file until the day of the interview?

I totally disagree. I felt like there were very few places that did not read my application file. In fact, a lot of the faculty, residents, and office staff knew me better then I did. Some of them could even quote large portions of my personal statement. And some program directors even call all their buddies that may know you and ask about you. It's scary because some really do their homework! I don't really know if that's a good or a bad thing.

Half of the programs I visited didnt even know who the hell I was. The other half reviewed my ish. Some pulled minute details off my CV and personal statement or research to talk about and others asked questions like "did you do any externships?" Which obviously means they didnt look at the freagn CV!

 

[Doggie]

Half of the programs I visited didnt even know who the hell I was. The other half reviewed my ish. Some pulled minute details off my CV and personal statement or research to talk about and others asked questions like "did you do any externships?" Which obviously means they didnt look at the freagn CV!

In my experience, only the director and maybe some other faculties that give a crap about you would read your apps. I have encountered some where they also asked about the most minute detail on my CV including why I used a particular reagent vs another. A lot of the interviewers didnt even flip beyond the page with all your scores, etc. I'd say the majority just sat there, looked at the stats, and try to talk to me to see if I will f_ck up on the interview.

My favorite (read: most ******ed) questions in no particular order:
1. If you were in my shoes, what would you want me to ask you that you wish I would like to know?
2. How would you like to die?
3. I have a cardiothoracic surgeon friend who makes $3000 on an open heart surgery while I can put in 1 implant in less time and get paid the same amount. What do you think of that?
4. What would you do if someone does not agree with you? (The question was not particularily annoying; it was the response of the interviewer that got to me. I answerd in a neutral and politically correct way, saying I would try to understand that person and perhaps convince him/her to think otherwise, etc etc. The interviewer basically said that I was an idiot and that the correct answer is to walk away and ignore the person - mind you, this interviewer was an old black guy in his 70's 80's who probably faced a lot of racism growing up. I was thinking to myself.........."I dont freaking agree with you right now, should I just walk out of the room on you? WTF?")

 

[GatorDMD]

In my experience, only the director and maybe some other faculties that give a crap about you would read your apps. I have encountered some where they also asked about the most minute detail on my CV including why I used a particular reagent vs another. A lot of the interviewers didnt even flip beyond the page with all your scores, etc. I'd say the majority just sat there, looked at the stats, and try to talk to me to see if I will f_ck up on the interview.

My favorite (read: most ******ed) questions in no particular order:
1. If you were in my shoes, what would you want me to ask you that you wish I would like to know?
2. How would you like to die?
3. I have a cardiothoracic surgeon friend who makes $3000 on an open heart surgery while I can put in 1 implant in less time and get paid the same amount. What do you think of that?
4. What would you do if someone does not agree with you? (The question was not particularily annoying; it was the response of the interviewer that got to me. I answerd in a neutral and politically correct way, saying I would try to understand that person and perhaps convince him/her to think otherwise, etc etc. The interviewer basically said that I was an idiot and that the correct answer is to walk away and ignore the person - mind you, this interviewer was an old black guy in his 70's 80's who probably faced a lot of racism growing up. I was thinking to myself.........."I dont freaking agree with you right now, should I just walk out of the room on you? WTF?")

Interesting questions I got on the trail...
1. Differential Diagnosis... Case scenario given with a picture of a lesion on a tongue. My answers were SCC, Fungal, Occlusal Trauma, Erosive LP????
2. Content of anesthetic carpule
3. concentration of LA per mL
4. Ludwigs angina invades what spaces
5. Ok buddy, you interview me for the next 30 minutes
6. Here you go pal, put on these arch bars on this skull
7. Ok pal, suture this using only forceps without your fingers
8. Solve 30 million people without insurance
9. Is it ethical to perform face transplants?
10. "You know you wont make any money in this field, why do you want to do it?" "How much money is enough for you?"
11. How does your program director do his tmj surgery.. with IVRO or BSSO?
12. This field is going down the drain... OMFS is trying to do cosmetics and periodontists are stealing 3rds under your noses! What do you think of that?
13. Convince me why we should take you into this program?
14. Interviewer: " This is hard work for 6 years! Do you think you can handle that? If you had done some externships you would know!"
Me: Sir, I did a couple monthes of externships so I think I could handle it"
Interviewer: "A few monthes is not 6 years! You dont know what hard work is son!"
Me:

 

[GatorDMD]

- mind you, this interviewer was an old black guy in his 70's 80's who probably faced a lot of racism growing up. I was thinking to myself.........."I dont freaking agree with you right now, should I just walk out of the room on you? WTF?")

 

[TiggerJSA]

Most interesting questions I got on the trail:

1) Resident: Who's on the $10 bill?
Me: Hamilton
Resident: The 20?
Me: Jackson
Resident: The 50?
Me: Grant
Resident: The 2???
Me: Jefferson
Resident: How did you know all of that??
Me: I'm Jewish
(True story)

2) Interviewer: What the hell was that sound coming from your body??
Me: I swear, it was a hiccup sir ...
(Not a true story, but I know they were all thinking it )

 

[rrc]

He was telling me that in the big serious cases, the neuro and ENT guys will have more say in the procedures that will take place. He also told me that this is one of the big reasons why the applicants every year in OMFS are decreasing. I don't know how much of this is true but it really made me hate those bastards (ENTs and neuros).

Ok, oral pathologists know NOTHING about what we do as OMS. Especially in terms of the current political scene amongst the specialties, let alone what procedures we do. Also, the trend, if anything, is changing to where OMS are doing more involved procedures rather than less. Neurosurgery has essentially nothing to do with what OMS, ENT, plastics do so that is very strange to hear. As far as related procedures go, I am in private practice now and just last Wednesday an ENT called me and asked if I could treat an open comminuted nasal fracture because he was too busy to see it. If you are priviledged to perform a procedure, other physicians cannot say stop you from doing it, regardless of what specialty they are in.

 

[rrc]

11. How does your program director do his tmj surgery.. with IVRO or BSSO?

I hope you said neither because those are ways of doing orthognathic surgery.

 

[ZMC DMD]

Most interesting questions I got on the trail:

1) Resident: Who's on the $10 bill?
Me: Hamilton
Resident: The 20?
Me: Jackson
Resident: The 50?
Me: Grant
Resident: The 2???
Me: Jefferson
Resident: How did you know all of that??
Me: I'm Jewish
(True story)

2) Interviewer: What the hell was that sound coming from your body??
Me: I swear, it was a hiccup sir ...
(Not a true story, but I know they were all thinking it )

I had some interesting questions too from describing a certain procedure step by step to Ludwig's to the freakin' cranial nerves to DO YOU KNOW WHAT ZMC STANDS FOR????!!! (how dare they...)

 

[toofache32]

Most interesting questions I got on the trail:

1) Resident: Who's on the $10 bill?
Me: Hamilton
Resident: The 20?
Me: Jackson
Resident: The 50?
Me: Grant
Resident: The 2???
Me: Jefferson
Resident: How did you know all of that??
Me: I'm Jewish
(True story)

2) Interviewer: What the hell was that sound coming from your body??
Me: I swear, it was a hiccup sir ...
(Not a true story, but I know they were all thinking it )

Good stuff!

 

[esclavo]

Most interesting questions I got on the trail:

1) Resident: Who's on the $10 bill?
Me: Hamilton
Resident: The 20?
Me: Jackson
Resident: The 50?
Me: Grant
Resident: The 2???
Me: Jefferson
Resident: How did you know all of that??
Me: I'm Jewish
(True story)

2) Interviewer: What the hell was that sound coming from your body??
Me: I swear, it was a hiccup sir ...
(Not a true story, but I know they were all thinking it )

excellent! I'm guessing he knows that personal finance and being able to live on a resident's salary aren't going to be your weak points... he's probably worried you'll start a business on the side while a resident....