NBPME are going to start releasing scores instead of pass/fail?

[janV88]

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When I interviewed at DMU I spoke with some of the 3rd years and they all mentioned that starting next year NBPME part I and II scores will be released. It won't be pass/fail anymore. Anyone else hear about this? Can anyone confirm or deny this please.

 

[Brodiatrist]

I vaguely remember this issue coming up in a newsletter not too long ago, so there might be some truth to it, but I'm not sure it will happen that soon. Call the NBPME.

 

[Feli]

I sure hope so. I repeatedly suggested this at APMA visitation meetings.

I think students would study a lot harder if they knew they'd get a score report that would be used for residency apps, and it'd also level the playing field for students from different pod schools (just like MCAT or USMLE do for pre-meds and med students).

 

[hyperpodia]

I sure hope so. I repeatedly suggested this at APMA visitation meetings.

I think students would study a lot harder if they knew they'd get a score report that would be used for residency apps, and it'd also level the playing field for students from different pod schools (just like MCAT or USMLE do for pre-meds and med students).

The pass fail is way better, hope this change occurs after 2012

 

[that1guyfromFL]

The pass fail is way better

Care to elaborate?

 

[that1guyfromFL]

I think students would study a lot harder if they knew they'd get a score report that would be used for residency apps, and it'd also level the playing field for students from different pod schools (just like MCAT or USMLE do for pre-meds and med students).

Agreed.

 

[Feli]

The pass fail is way better, hope this change occurs after 2012

What's wrong with a scored exam... or "much better" about the current setup? As it stands now, we just have a pass/fail test that routinely results in basically any student who applied themself (ie is not in bottom 15-20% academically) passing. That does very little to help residencies sort the good candidates, and it's not very challenging for most students either.

If the exam was scored, you'd see a lot more study effort - even from top students (since they would probably attempt to score at/above the level other top students if they want elite residencies). Not to say current pass/fail NBPME is a joke, but if you're in the top half/third of your class (depending on school), you can basically treat pt1 as a low pressure chance to caaasually review your basic science info. A change to scored exam would make even high ranked students work harder IMO (ever seen MD/DO students studying for USMLE or COMLEX?). That change to a scored exam greatly benefits every student to be studying their butt off on anat, pharm, pathology, etc before they are going to start 3rd year clinics and have the responsibility of making patient diagnosis/treatment decisions very soon.

It would also help residency programs have something besides GPA to go off of when ranking clerk/residency candidates. The more factors they have to judge their candidates by... interview, gpa, clerkship performance, board score, research, ECs, etc, the more they can take out the factor of "luck" (high gpa inflated by school grading system, nearly failed board exam that was still a "pass" in the P/F system, BS-ed CV with fake research or ECs, interview topic that an ordinary candidate happened to know a ton about - or get tipped off about by a classmate who interviewed previously - and appear brilliant, etc). It's never bad to give the programs more info about the candidates they are making a big decision about in terms of salary, time investment, malpractice risk, co-resident chemistry, etc etc.

Furthermore, it would benefit the pod schools to know what courses/areas they may wish to find better faculty/methods for. Certain schools may also realize they are far behind the avg NBPME scores of other programs, and maybe that would be a wake up call that they should not be accepting/passing/graduating the sort of students they currently do. That could lead to more overall incoming/graduating pod program selectivity, which can only benefit us all in terms of long term respect for DPMs.

 

[dtrack22]

Careful Feli, all the MCAT haters (ie kids who didn't do well on it) are going to come on here and tell you how a standardized test is a bad indiciation of how a student will perform at the next level...in this case residency.

I can see it now. "I'm a bad test taker so why should I be put at a disadvantage when applying for residency because I scored lower than student X?" Let the whining begin 🙄

 

[Feli]

Careful Feli, all the MCAT haters (ie kids who didn't do well on it) are going to come on here and tell you how a standardized test is a bad indiciation of how a student will perform at the next level...in this case residency.

I can see it now. "I'm a bad test taker so why should I be put at a disadvantage when applying for residency because I scored lower than student X?" Let the whining begin 🙄

I realize that, but the "I just don't take tests well" stuff doesn't hold water after awhile. Surgery or clinical practice are all about knowing a broad base of info while working under time and pressure constraints... not unlike taking a comprehensive board exam. Yes, the personality and work ethic factors also play a huge role, but that is why most good residency programs choose from among their clerkship students.

Like I said, standardized tests are a way to level the playing field when comparing students between the different schools. Pre-med has MCAT, MDs have USMLE, DOs have COMLEX, and DPMs have nothing of the sort at the present time. It's time that changed, and it would benefit everyone (the students, the residencies, schools, and the pod profession overall)... JMO.

 

[krabmas]

Careful Feli, all the MCAT haters (ie kids who didn't do well on it) are going to come on here and tell you how a standardized test is a bad indiciation of how a student will perform at the next level...in this case residency.

I can see it now. "I'm a bad test taker so why should I be put at a disadvantage when applying for residency because I scored lower than student X?" Let the whining begin 🙄

This is not directed at you - dtrack22

Part of being successful in medicine is being able to take and pass, even do well on standardized tests. They may not be a good measure of how you interact with patients and whether or not you have good hand eye coordination, but they do measure direct knowledge if composed properly.

I think releasing the scores would be a great idea. It would make more residency interviews social and less academic. And may take the lack of trust that seems to be rampant in the podiatry world out of the equation as well.

 

[Brodiatrist]

I could care less either way. I read an APMA survey from residency directors and it stated that when selecting a candidate they rely most heavily on clinical evaluations. I think that's the way it should be..if you can pass step one, who cares how high a score you got.

 

[Brodiatrist]

... And may take the lack of trust that seems to be rampant in the podiatry world out of the equation as well.

Please elaborate..

 

[Feli]

And may take the lack of trust that seems to be rampant in the podiatry world out of the equation as well.

Please elaborate..

Krabmas can answer you directly when she reads it, but I was going to quote her and say "well said" when I read that post also.

We all know there is pretty much a bell curve when it comes to anything... accountants, salesmen, lawyers, mechanics, farmers, chefs, etc. In any physician specialty, unfortunately, not all doctors are good doctors. In pod, that might be magnified a bit, and that's because there may be even greater spectrum of competence/training among DPMs due to the lower admissions standards when compared with MD/DO and the fact that post-graduate DPM training has changed so much in the past few decades. Let's face the facts: some DPMs have 3yrs of residency plus a 6 or 12mo fellowship and might have done 3000+ procedures in their training and published a dozen or more peer reviewed papers... while others barely graduated and didn't do any residency at all. You will come to see a bit of skepticism among DPMs when it comes to their opinions regarding the competence of their peers, and some of it is probably well founded. However, you will really see this in any specialty, esp surgical specialties (every doc thinks he's the creme de la creme). If you don't want to deal with big egos, then medicine (esp surg and/or at a teaching hospital) is probably not your cup of tea.

Ideally, the bottom line is that you want to surround yourself (and your patients, family, friends, etc) with the best and brightest docs when it comes to your referrals, second opinions, consults, etc. Elitism? Maybe, but if you work hard to get good skills, stay up on the standards of care, etc, then you will probably begin to expect that from your peers also. I'd rather not just select some random name from the yellow pages or hospital staff list who, for all you know, might have lucked out and snuck by the boards, tries to see 100+ patients per day and makes many wait for hours, and may not have opened a medical journal in the last 10+ years. You will notice that most experienced docs have "preferred" consult/referral docs, and that's usually based on the fact that they know the guy is intelligent and/or their patients have been pleased with his care in the past. That's a good thing to keep going with a well proven commodity, both for your peace of mind and your patients' health. You can let other people roll the dice by throwing darts at the yellow pages. Just my 2c... take it FWIW and eventually make up your own mind based on your experiences, but you will probably find out soon enough there's a lot to real world medicine you won't read in a book.

 

[dtrack22]

This is not directed at you - dtrack22

Part of being successful in medicine is being able to take and pass, even do well on standardized tests. They may not be a good measure of how you interact with patients and whether or not you have good hand eye coordination, but they do measure direct knowledge if composed properly.

I think releasing the scores would be a great idea. It would make more residency interviews social and less academic. And may take the lack of trust that seems to be rampant in the podiatry world out of the equation as well.

No worries, I get it has nothing to do with me. Either way I don't have enough info/experience to formulate much of an opinion yet. I was just speaking based on my own experience of posting about MCAT scores on these boards (people got really offended when I suggested that the MCAT matters and the stand test excuse no longer holds water).

Anyways, interesting to see your guys (and gals) point of view as always.

 

[244869]

I agree that it is better to get a score. Yes the board exams are supposed to measure "minimum competency" but it would be nice to have another attribute for residency directors to gauge students on. It will make the matching process more tangible and reduce the amount of "surprises".

Funny thing is that there is talk of the USMLE switching to pass/fail next year. 😕

EDIT: Don't quote me on the USMLE switching to pass/fail. I read it a while back on the med student forums.

 

[Sig Savant]

Maybe this should be an entirely new topic, but what about schools being simply pass/fail? If the school and NBPME were both pass/fail, this would be even worse, but if the standardized tests become scored, does this open the door for schools to switch to a pass/fail system?

 

[whiskers]

Anything less than sitting for the USMLE is subpar IMO.

It's hillarious to note that the old geezerly pods in their attempt to gain fame and fortune don't up their own skills, but rather enforce hurdles onto incoming candidates.

It's great for them so long as they are always grandfathered in and have full access.

It's kind of weird and creepy in a way.

Just think, grandpa pod was learning surgeries from videos and doing them fine but now there is an enforced 3 year long residency beat down process... It's funny to see the old pods who suffered through a grueling 3 month residency (lol) making the lives of residents miserable for 3 YEARS. Then they claim that's how residency was for them.... But they fail to mention their residency was only 3 months to a year long.

And to add injury to insult they then don't own up to all the hack job surgeries that flow into the offices regularly.

As far as the joke of the board certification, I'm surprised anyone graduating from residency is going along with it but whatever, they are virtual slaves to the pod mill anyway trying to pay off their gigantic loans.

 

[darazon]

When I interviewed at DMU I spoke with some of the 3rd years and they all mentioned that starting next year NBPME part I and II scores will be released. It won't be pass/fail anymore. Anyone else hear about this? Can anyone confirm or deny this please.

I asked one of our faculty members who is well versed in what is going on with the NBPME about the pass/fail. She looked at me really weird and replied that this definitely was not the case.

Too bad, I do think that it would level the playing field.

 

[longstech]

I emailed the APMSA liaison to the NBPME to see if this was true, and here was his response:

"I have spoken with the Board about this in the past and they have said that they have no intention of releasing scores for the exam. It is a minimum competency exam, which means that it is meant to test the minimum level of knowledge necessary to ensure a patient receives appropriate care from a practicing podiatric physician. By my understanding, it will never be used as a means to compare student performance to the group (i.e. by releasing scores or ranking us). It serves only as a measure to ensure that students continuing from Part I to Part II and then to Part III have demonstrated competency and proficiency in their education up to that point."

Hope this answers your questions.

 

[spo01]

I emailed the APMSA liaison to the NBPME to see if this was true, and here was his response:

"I have spoken with the Board about this in the past and they have said that they have no intention of releasing scores for the exam. It is a minimum competency exam, which means that it is meant to test the minimum level of knowledge necessary to ensure a patient receives appropriate care from a practicing podiatric physician. By my understanding, it will never be used as a means to compare student performance to the group (i.e. by releasing scores or ranking us). It serves only as a measure to ensure that students continuing from Part I to Part II and then to Part III have demonstrated competency and proficiency in their education up to that point."

Hope this answers your questions.

Interesting, thanks for emailing them and posting this.

 

[air bud]

to be honest, up to a few weeks ago I didn't realize that part I was pass/fail. All the more reason why grades are important to help separate yourself from others.

 

[Brodiatrist]

to be honest, up to a few weeks ago I didn't realize that part I was pass/fail. All the more reason why grades are important to help separate yourself from others.

Interesting thought. We've had residency presentations the whole semester here and of course how grades factor into selection is often asked of the directors. Believe it or not, grade inflation, etc. is rampant and these programs know it. Notice how only a handful have a GPA/Rank cutoff? Within reason, most have said your clinical evaluations hold more weight than your grades. As one PD put it "Who cares if you can tell me the details of the clotting cascade if you can't treat my patient." These programs want to be confident that you can be a good provider to their patient, which is why the residency interviews are pimp sessions. Now I'm not saying grades are not important, but what I've heard in these presentations they are not AS important as other skills in selection.

 

[PharoPod]

Recently, an increasing number of residency programs have been asking for score reports!!

 

[215353]

Recently, an increasing number of residency programs have been asking for score reports!!

Where's the link or who/what is your source?

If this is the case then bring it on...I think this would solve a lot of problems with people arguing that affiliated podiatry schools are better than non-affiliated schools or vice versa.

It also adds another variable for residency directors to consider when reviewing an applicants credentials and clinical competency compared to his/her peers.

Maybe residency directors are asking for board scores because there is a shortage of residencies?

 

[jpevball]

As was reported by NBPME and CPME liasons as well as Dr. Page during the last APMSA HOD meeting (Mid-Winter in Phoenix), this is not the case or the norm. The test is a pass/fail and scores are not going to be/are not being used in the immediate (3-4 years) future. GPA, CV, PT I/II Boards passed FIRST TIME, etc. are the main things considered...oh and if you are a hard-worker who gets along well with whoever's interviewing you (or if you did well during an externship)...