NDs lecturing at DO schools?

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Elisabeth Kate said:
This is the definition of arrogance, in case there was any doubt.
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You're like a textbook definition of projection. I'm not going to bother with you anymore. After all, once you fail your patients, it means more business for me.
 
DrCharlemagne said:
Patients are indeed more than numbers, and I would never take a patient to task for using CAM modalities unless they were at serious risk of direct harms. The discussion, however, is not about what patients think or do but what happens in medical education. The plural of anecdote is not data, and placebo effects can lead patients to believe they're getting better when they're actually getting worse. Pain medicine is incredibly complex and we have an incredibly limited tool set with which to address the needs of chronic pain patients, but that doesn't mean we should turn to modalities that are comparable in efficacy to twirling a toothpick on the skin. Perhaps you might want to peruse the Cochrane database and get a handle on how poor the evidence base is for the efficacy of acupuncture in managing pain in the long term. While the reviews are frequently charitable in their conclusions about the efficacy of acupuncture in pain management for a variety of disorders, they are also frequently accompanied by the caveat that the studies to date are of insufficient quality to make hard recommendations.
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We are off topic now but yeah. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23067573 . Took me a 2 second search. As with anything alternative of course more research is needed. No one is arguing that. But yes it works. All the time? No. But nothing does. Seeing is believing for me I suppose.
 
DrCharlemagne said:
Naturopaths reject empirical evidence as the means for justifying treatments. They reject germ theory, vaccines, and prescribe water and think magical energy fields can be manipulated by thought. This is explicitly stated in their educational materials, which you might want to leaf through before defending them. Why should I trust the dietary advice of a practitioner who thinks diluting medicine makes it stronger, that disease comes from within and can only be purged by detoxification and frankly denies basic scientific findings that disagree with their clinical opinion? Beyond eating less red meat and increasing my vegetable intake, what else can these professionals teach me about nutrition? And what about their ubiquitous endorsement of supplements? The burgeoning consensus is that healthy, functioning people don't need supplementation, but the backbone of naturopath is prescribing a hodgepodge of homeopathic remedies and unregulated supplements and herbal remedies.
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A gross error of bias on your part. Making broad sweeping statements that they reject germ theory, vaccines, believe in energy fields being manipulated and prescribing water is absurd in my mind. Rejecting emperical evidence?? Wow. Just as the ND was clearly biased in the OPs class, for which you have vehemently attacked, can you not see the same bias in every one of your posts.

To clarify, I do not believe in energy fields being manipulated, I vaccinate my children, I do believe in germ theory, I have been involved in multiple DBPC trials and I was a practicing ND (SCNM grad) for 6 years before deciding to become an orthopedic surgeon. The first two years of SCNM was exactly the same as the first two years of my Osteopathic Education, the clinical years are highly different. I also completely an intern year after graduation in family medicine. I prescribed antibiotics, recommended annual preventative exams and tests, used evidence based decision flow sheets/algorithms.. however I focused heavily on lifestyle changes, dietary modifications, exercise, etc which you will rarely find in a FPs office now a days (You have a lot to learn here, your premedical education is showing - please tell me how to institute the cardiac diet, consistent carbohydrate diet, renal diet, low sodium diet, gluten free diet, rotational diet, hypoallergenic diet, ketogenic diet,etc -- ALL diets used in mainstream medicine but lacking in the primary care office). I've seen my training in the ND world make tremendous gains for patients and change their lives, not only when I was a practicing ND but also during my internship year. I'm sure you scoff at this.

If you think every physician practices based on gold standard techniques, evidence based medicine, only prescribes FDA approved therapeutic medicines you are sorely in trouble. There is more "art" and "theory" of medicine then you will ever think.

I know you and I will never agree, that's fine, we come from completely different worlds probably. But I do hope throughout medical school you learn quickly to be a little less harsh in your judgments and more open to discussion on topics that don't make sense to you. You'll find it will help your patients immensely as a resident and in your future career as a doctor. 'Nuff said, I'll let you have the last argument and the readers can pick apart the pros and cons of both our viewpoints (I am aware of my bias).
 
Jwalker said:
You sound like you're real fun at parties. ;/
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I beg to differ. Here's my evidence:

-- Buzz Killington from Family Guy too controversial for SDN?! --

EDiT: Somehow I got TOS violation for inappropriate behavior due to this specific post. I can't even have a conversation about it with the mod to know what is inappropriate with this because he/she doesn't accept conversations. Until explained, I see no reason to edit my post.
 
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After reading most of this thread, I wonder: why not let an ND lecture on CAM modalities?

Here's where I'm coming from because I'm not as complacent as that first but may seem. So a school asks an ND to give a lecture on purely what CAM modalities are out there, what the basic hypothesized mechanism is, etc. You know, the basics, purely informational. No anecdotes, no attempt to convince of the modalities' efficacy.

Then--afterward--have the students go over the modalities, look at the evidence for them, analyze whether or not it is compelling, look for bias, etc. It would be a great exercise in critical thinking as well as in understanding the strength of different evidence.

That's the kind of thing we should do with every article and study. But alas, that sort of exercise is more likely a pipe dream.
 
while in general I think it wise for physicians to lecture to physicians, in the case of natural or herbal medicine, someone who knows it best is far better. There are a LOT of patients (and I mean a LOT) who take all kinds of herbal meds that will interfere with prescription meds. I was really shocked by how many folks came to resident clinic on cinnamon, ginko, St. John's wort, garlic, etc. For you to "poo-poo" their trials will not garner you confidence points. Look at it this way: herbals is where most of our meds started from. And some of them really do work. Learn what you can about them to be a better medical partner in your patients care.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
I beg to differ. Here's my evidence:



EDiT: Somehow I got TOS violation for inappropriate behavior due to this specific post. I can't even have a conversation about it with the mod to know what is inappropriate with this because he/she doesn't accept conversations. Until explained, I see no reason to edit my post.
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Probably because there's a racist joke about a nation not quite known for their sense of humor (even when it's a compliment).
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
That level of PC makes my head explode.
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Well... I was violated a few years ago for posting a perfectly "innocent" picture from the kid's show "Lazy Town." I mean, it wasn't photoshopped or nothin... peoples' heads were just in the gutter that day. (searching for "lazy town meme" should bring it up).
 
Orthojoe said:
As a resident I am consistently discussing new treatments and modalities to my attendings, and often they change their stance and make adjustments (just recently the use of tranexamic acid has become standard with our attendings due to our group of residents pushing for its use because new research was pointing to its benefit, plus we got tired of the bloody post op dressings and pulling drains). Oh we use dakins solutions all the time in orthopedics (wasnt that a CAM therapy a previous poster bashed on???? broaden the mind)

Yes I think it should be required to learn about CAM therapy, its positive and negative effects (as was discussed in a previous post about the metastatic breast cancer).
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Yes thank you for the lesson about "broadening my mind". I wasn't "bashing" the use of Dakin's solution and am well aware of its uses and properties; as a surgeon I've used it numerous times myself. Frankly, that's how I knew what it was when she brought it to me.

My comment was that this particular patient was advocating the use of it in a manner that had no efficacy and certainly would not give her the result she wanted. Is there data to support the use of Dakin's solution as an intraoperative irrigation (i.e., pour in, suction right back out) for breast cancer in an effort to reduce recurrence rates? Of course not. I did what she asked because I knew it wouldn't hurt her but it sure wasn't going to prevent her cancer from recurring. Nothing she was doing to herself was supported by good data; it is very difficult to watch a young woman die of a treatable disease.

There are several of your former colleagues here in town practicing and many of them do a good job providing CAM treatments to my patients. I enjoy working with them and learning about what my patients are getting. However, when someone is obviously dying from their disease, when do you say, "enough is enough"? Honest question. I still cannot wrap my head around the thought process of continuing to do the same thing over and over when its apparent that it isn't working.
 
That's it, i'm convinced. all of my future patients will only be recommended crystal therapy, ayahuasca spirit quests, and I will be only prescribe tiger paw and rhino horn. and i will be even watering down my placebos to 1 ppm for maximum effectiveness
 
cabinbuilder said:
Regardless of how it was presented, in the real world patients do ask about alternative medicine and herbals ALL THE TIME. I honestly wish I had even one lecture on what ND's do because your patients flock to those types of providers. I get a lot of elderly patients who only want "natural" medicine who think DO=ND and want me to tell them what to take to cure their ails without writing an Rx.
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I've got a ton of friends now on the doterra "essential oil" bandwagon and a whole crew antivaxxers. Luckily as a premed, no one asks my opinion so I don't need to know how to respond yet, but I would like to be able to by graduation
 
There is a very prominent ENT/Plastics doctor in town who tells patients to use Arnica Gel post surgery to help with scarring/bruising/swelling. Isn't that, like, voodoo or something?

guylewis said:
That's it, i'm convinced. all of my future patients will only be recommended crystal therapy, ayahuasca spirit quests, and I will be only prescribe tiger paw and rhino horn. and i will be even watering down my placebos to 1 ppm for maximum effectiveness
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Winged Scapula said:
I'm doing a mastectomy today on a young woman with a fungating chest wall mass which her "doctor" has been "treating" with IV Vitamin C, etc. She clearly has metastatic disease with positive axillary and supraclav nodes but refuses any adjuvant treatment.

It frustrates me that we work diligently to take care of people, all the while facing the real possibility of litigation when things don't go well (or even if they do), and there are NDs out there (and we have loads here because we have some schools in town) *killing* patients with these unproven treatments. Despite what I do today in the OR, this women will almost assuredly die of her metastatic breast cancer before age 50. 🙁
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What do they say when you tell them the course they're taking is killing/has killed them?
 
I'm extremely conflicted about this. On one hand I would be visibly upset that my school is wasting time introducing me to a side of medicine that I am fundamentally against. On the other hand I would kind of want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth. I've personally seen a small handful of incredibly ridiculous damage done by ND's and the like. The "practitioners" I have had the displeasure of dealing with were at best scam artists and at worst negligent criminals. Part of me wants to believe there is some good in that field.
 
Back 5 said:
There is a very prominent ENT/Plastics doctor in town who tells patients to use Arnica Gel post surgery to help with scarring/bruising/swelling. Isn't that, like, voodoo or something?
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http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/arnica

"Some lab experiments suggest that arnica might kill bacteria and ease swelling. But the effects in people aren’t clear.

Studies of topical arnica gels and ointments for bruising and arthritis symptoms -- like pain and swelling -- have had unclear results. So far, research suggests that arnica skin treatments don’t ease muscle pain.

If eaten, the actual herb is toxic and can be fatal. However, some oral supplements contain highly diluted arnica. These are considered homeopathic treatments. These low-dose arnica tablets are safe to use and have been studied for blood clots, diarrhea, diabetic eye damage, and swelling and pain after surgery. More research needs to be done to establish effectiveness for those problems. A study of children with cancer, however, found that homeopathic low-dose arnica may help reduce mouth ulcers related to chemotherapy.

Because of the risks of pure arnica, the FDA classifies it as an unsafe herb. Doctors who practice complementary medicine generally advise against using arnica in any form other than in a highly diluted homeopathic form"
 
quite frankly as a student we don't have a lot of power and are just paying our dues in hopes of getting to attending........they could make me watch a bieber concert and I'd show up. Just punch your ticket and move to the next task
 
NurWollen said:
There sure is a lot of butthurt on this thread...
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I'm tempted to reply to this with a pic from "Rejected" buy I think it is bordering on bad taste.
1050947869_danuscloud.jpg
 
Back 5 said:
There is a very prominent ENT/Plastics doctor in town who tells patients to use Arnica Gel post surgery to help with scarring/bruising/swelling. Isn't that, like, voodoo or something?
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A lot of medicine might as well be voodoo. Every time I get an order for CPT for a pleural effusion I seriosuly want to slap someone.
 
I can google too, but the point of my post is to illustrate that CAM treatments/therapy are prevalent despite your blind hatred for anything other than mainstream medicine.

It would behoove you to in erase your exposure.

guylewis said:
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/arnica

"Some lab experiments suggest that arnica might kill bacteria and ease swelling. But the effects in people aren’t clear.

Studies of topical arnica gels and ointments for bruising and arthritis symptoms -- like pain and swelling -- have had unclear results. So far, research suggests that arnica skin treatments don’t ease muscle pain.

If eaten, the actual herb is toxic and can be fatal. However, some oral supplements contain highly diluted arnica. These are considered homeopathic treatments. These low-dose arnica tablets are safe to use and have been studied for blood clots, diarrhea, diabetic eye damage, and swelling and pain after surgery. More research needs to be done to establish effectiveness for those problems. A study of children with cancer, however, found that homeopathic low-dose arnica may help reduce mouth ulcers related to chemotherapy.

Because of the risks of pure arnica, the FDA classifies it as an unsafe herb. Doctors who practice complementary medicine generally advise against using arnica in any form other than in a highly diluted homeopathic form"
Click to expand...
 
Back 5 said:
There is a very prominent ENT/Plastics doctor in town who tells patients to use Arnica Gel post surgery to help with scarring/bruising/swelling. Isn't that, like, voodoo or something?
Click to expand...
Where I'm from we have used arnica gel for swelling/bruising for as long as I can remember.
 
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Back 5 said:
I can google too, but the point of my post is to illustrate that CAM treatments/therapy are prevalent despite your blind hatred for anything other than mainstream medicine.

It would behoove you to in erase your exposure.
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It's not blind hatred. My cousin is dead because of a brain tumor she decided to treat with homeopathic bullcrap.
 
Just skimmed through this thread and, wow, both sides make a very compelling argument. However, I think I lean a little toward the "skeptical" group mainly because I think med students don't have much luxury in terms of time and energy to endure a lecture full of low-yield material. I think dedicating the time and effort to educate medical students about the economics and politics of medicine would be a much better use of resources.
 
I'm sorry about your cousin. That is unfortunate. She, like Steve Jobs chose a treatment method that is in no shape or form designed to help Cancer.

Is this an indictment of a profession or is this an incident of personal choice? The patient is the boss and they make the final decision in regards to their care whether we agree with it or not.

If an Oncologist treats a cancer with the inappropriate drugs and the patient passes, do we claim medicine is crap and in effective and a waste of time?

Patients are going to flock to CAM treatments as more and more of society questions science. It's our job to understand these CAM treatments and educate ourselves to speak to them on their terms. This brings me back to my original point: to attend any CAM lecturer the school brings in to better understand where your future patients are coming from.

guylewis said:
It's not blind hatred. My cousin is dead because of a brain tumor she decided to treat with homeopathic bullcrap.
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Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Just skimmed through this thread and, wow, both sides make a very compelling argument. However, I think I lean a little toward the "skeptical" group mainly because I think med students don't have much luxury in terms of time and energy to endure a lecture full of low-yield material. I think dedicating the time and effort to educate medical students about the economics and politics of medicine would be a much better use of resources.
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One 2 hour lecture on a topic that you won't be tested on (no notes - just listening!) is too much? C'mon son that's soft. No med student is that pressed for time.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Just skimmed through this thread and, wow, both sides make a very compelling argument. However, I think I lean a little toward the "skeptical" group mainly because I think med students don't have much luxury in terms of time and energy to endure a lecture full of low-yield material. I think dedicating the time and effort to educate medical students about the economics and politics of medicine would be a much better use of resources.
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This is why I like this guy. Always thinking outside the box. That would be great if we were made more aware of the economics and politics in medicine.
 
Back 5 said:
The school is not endorsing ND's. If they bring in a Spiritual Healer who removed disease over the phone, I'll attend that lecture the same as I would a prominent Oncologist who just cured cancer.

It's information.
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Wat. These types of healers are a dime a dozen. Are you going to sit through every lecture about rubbing dirt on skin cancer because someone decided it was worthwhile? Part of being science literate is knowing when something is so off-base that you're just going to be wasting your time. When your patient asks you if rubbing diluted bleach on their skin is going to cure their cancer, your answer is going to be NO. In that case, knowing about Dakin's solution will help determine your response but I'm not going to sit through a lecture and listen to some guy tell me that it actually *does* something.

What will you do when the people organizing these lectures start to believe that osteopathic medicine should be practiced in its pure form without the use of toxins like AZT or chemotherapy drugs?

We can keep attending all the lectures in the world, but we are also expected to know when someone is wasting our time based on our scientific knowledge.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
This is why I like this guy. Always thinking outside the box. That would be great if we were made more aware of the economics and politics in medicine.
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Most schools already do this. And guess what just as many people pay attention to these lectures as they do to CAM. If med students aren't being tested on it in the near future - 95% of them aren't going to pay attention. These required lectures are glorified study halls at my school. Earplugs and all. That's just facts.
 
Mehd School said:
I'm extremely conflicted about this. On one hand I would be visibly upset that my school is wasting time introducing me to a side of medicine that I am fundamentally against. On the other hand I would kind of want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth. I've personally seen a small handful of incredibly ridiculous damage done by ND's and the like. The "practitioners" I have had the displeasure of dealing with were at best scam artists and at worst negligent criminals. Part of me wants to believe there is some good in that field.
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It's important that med students learn that being a physician isn't about your own personal beliefs. There are students fundamentally against abortion. Should that subject be banned from curriculum? There are students fundamentally against birth control. Banned? Not so much. I had a classmate fundamentally against benzo use because his mom and sister became addicted to them and he was convinced they serve no useful purpose for anyone, except maybe someone in acute alcohol withdrawal. The bottom line is, as long as patients are using them, you NEED to know about it. Put your beliefs aside and open your mind to what your patients are taking. It's your job as a physician to be exposed to these things, whether you agree with them or not.

Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Just skimmed through this thread and, wow, both sides make a very compelling argument. However, I think I lean a little toward the "skeptical" group mainly because I think med students don't have much luxury in terms of time and energy to endure a lecture full of low-yield material. I think dedicating the time and effort to educate medical students about the economics and politics of medicine would be a much better use of resources.
Click to expand...

Learning about the economics of medicine in the first year of med school will be of virtually no benefit to you whatsoever. The economy and healthcare changes at a rapid pace. You'll learn all that and more during your clinical years and residency. As for politics, that's what interest groups/clubs are for. Like economics, the politics changes. Granted, everyone should have a lecture or two on Obamacare and what it actually means, but beyond that would be overkill.
 
Regardless of what you personally believe about these types of medicines, you're gonna run into patients who use this for everything.

Had a middle-aged Asian guy, 99% b/l carotid artery stenosis, s/p stroke, decide he wanted to use "traditional Chinese medicine" to treat the stroke. Apparently he knew someone else that had tried it and said it worked. Try showing a box with Chinese characters scribbled all over it to a bunch of Cuban pharmacists. All we could is say is we couldn't recommend that because we had no idea what was actually in it and that it could actually mess up his other medications.

I had someone over Christmas try to convince me that Chromium supplements would cure children of ADD/ADHD.

I think if you resist the urge to roll your eyes and educate your patients it comes across better. At least you tried. Chances are, they aren't going to change their mind.
 
Elisabeth Kate said:
It's important that med students learn that being a physician isn't about your own personal beliefs. There are students fundamentally against abortion. Should that subject be banned from curriculum? There are students fundamentally against birth control. Banned? Not so much. I had a classmate fundamentally against benzo use because his mom and sister became addicted to them and he was convinced they serve no useful purpose for anyone, except maybe someone in acute alcohol withdrawal. The bottom line is, as long as patients are using them, you NEED to know about it. Put your beliefs aside and open your mind to what your patients are taking. It's your job as a physician to be exposed to these things, whether you agree with them or not.
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Fair enough. Good point.
 
guylewis said:
That's it, i'm convinced. all of my future patients will only be recommended crystal therapy, ayahuasca spirit quests, and I will be only prescribe tiger paw and rhino horn. and i will be even watering down my placebos to 1 ppm for maximum effectiveness
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60% of the time, it works every time.
 
The biggest issue I see here is the fact that you are going to lecture..
 
Over my dead body would I let this happen at my school!


cn2604 said:
So we just had a naturopathic doctor come in at my DO school today and give us a lecture on naturopathic medicine as well as homeopathy and other forms of alternative medicine. And no this wasn't some kind of optional seminar for people interested, it was part of our normal curriculum. This lecture focused on herbal remedies, general intro to CAM, etc. and was ended with a prayer/meditation session.

Throughout the lecture, the ND kept lumping NDs and DOs into the same group, saying things like "we as physicians" (referring to NDs and DOs as a group) and remarking on the similarities between osteopathic and naturopathic medicine and how the MD's don't practice holistically like "us" (propaganda proliferated commonly at my school that I also disagree with). I found it all very offensive to the modern and evidence-based nature of osteopathic medicine today and feel like things like this just continue to hold back the profession.

Am I overreacting? I asked several people in my class what they thought of it, and no one seemed to think it was a big deal. A lot of students in my class are into alternative medicine and we have a CAM interest group. We also take a required CAM block taught by an ND during our second year. Is this common at other schools? And no, we aren't one of the newer schools....we're actually at one of the more established and respected DO schools, which is another reason I find all of this especially embarrassing.
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Back 5 said:
I'm sorry about your cousin. That is unfortunate. She, like Steve Jobs chose a treatment method that is in no shape or form designed to help Cancer.

Is this an indictment of a profession or is this an incident of personal choice? The patient is the boss and they make the final decision in regards to their care whether we agree with it or not.

If an Oncologist treats a cancer with the inappropriate drugs and the patient passes, do we claim medicine is crap and in effective and a waste of time?

Patients are going to flock to CAM treatments as more and more of society questions science. It's our job to understand these CAM treatments and educate ourselves to speak to them on their terms. This brings me back to my original point: to attend any CAM lecturer the school brings in to better understand where your future patients are coming from.
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The patients are not experts and thus trust in people who claim to be experts to provide their care. When you've got one guy saying he can fix your tumor with magic water rather than surgery, promises he's had success in the past, and tells you you'll have no scars or side effects, and another guy says I'm going to hit you with radiation, you'll lose all your hair, we'll probably have to remove half of your skull and surgically resect the tumor, you'll have a decent amount of scarring, and you very well might die, it's pretty damn easy to defer to the sweet talking "expert" as opposed to the straight-talking physician. By allowing CAM practitioners to come and speak at medical schools, you're providing them with even more ammunition by which they can embellish their claims. "My methods are so effective, medical schools are allowing me to lecture at their facilities to teach medical students more about them." is just one more thing they can tack on to their "I can cure your cancer with diluted uranium water better than they can with chemotherapy" sales pitch. The ones that practice out of scope and kill their patients deserve jail time, not lecture time.
 
Mad Jack said:
The patients are not experts and thus trust in people who claim to be experts to provide their care. When you've got one guy saying he can fix your tumor with magic water rather than surgery, promises he's had success in the past, and tells you you'll have no scars or side effects, and another guy says I'm going to hit you with radiation, you'll lose all your hair, we'll probably have to remove half of your skull and surgically resect the tumor, you'll have a decent amount of scarring, and you very well might die, it's pretty damn easy to defer to the sweet talking "expert" as opposed to the straight-talking physician. By allowing CAM practitioners to come and speak at medical schools, you're providing them with even more ammunition by which they can embellish their claims. "My methods are so effective, medical schools are allowing me to lecture at their facilities to teach medical students more about them." is just one more thing they can tack on to their "I can cure your cancer with diluted uranium water better than they can with chemotherapy" sales pitch. The ones that practice out of scope and kill their patients deserve jail time, not lecture time.
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You're implying that all NDs are purposely deceitful which is not true. Just look up further in this thread in relation to orthojoe and how he used to practice as an ND. I'm sure some NDs are deceitful but not all of them but no profession is immune of that - even MD/DO
 
I tried acupuncture once. Dude swore to me that this "classical Chinese" herbal formula (which is apparently different than a ~traditional~ Chinese formula) would cure all of my health symptoms. I went home and researched the ingredients and found out that one of them, aconite, is a neurotoxin and cardiotoxin nicknamed the "queen of poisons." The idea is supposed to be that it loses its toxic properties after being processed in a certain way, but do I really trust a little-known Chinese herb company to correctly "process" my poison? I informed him that I wasn't comfortable taking it at my next visit, and he flipped out on me telling me to find another acupuncturist if I didn't have enough confidence in his abilities as a healthcare professional.

Then, after my GP encouraged me to continue trying acupuncture, I showed her the bottle of herbal pills the guy had given me and asked for her input on the ingredients. She said, "Go ahead and try those! I see nothing alarming in the ingredients, so why not?"

Alarming stuff.
 
Jwalker said:
You're implying that all NDs are purposely deceitful which is not true. Just look up further in this thread in relation to orthojoe and how he used to practice as an ND. I'm sure some NDs are deceitful but not all of them but no profession is immune of that - even MD/DO
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"The ones that practice out of scope and kill their patients deserve jail time, not lecture time. "

I am not hating on the ones that give dietary and nutrition advice to supplement medical care. It's the ones that go above and beyond that, claiming that naturopathy is the cure for all ills that I've got it out for. In my experience, the irrational ones outnumber the rational ones by a significant margin. And, as TP said, it isn't purposely deceitful if they're already lying to themselves- they are big on drinking their own Kool-Aid.
 
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