Need advice on applying

[anbuitachi]

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For those of you who have experience hiring, or applying.. when would you say is the best time to apply for a job in CA3 year and what is your recommendation on how we should approach applying? From my understanding from reading past posts, groups typically give you 2-4 week time period after an offer to respond. I am trying to figure out the best approach to this since it seems much more complicated than applying to residency/medical school and the process is not designed in favor of the applicant, so I want to form a plan before i start applying.

I'll be going in with no fellowship and no prior real job experience other than the anesthesiology residency. My resume has no red flags, but also nothing else on it (no research, no awards, no presentations, nothing other than I'm in residency). I don't have connections so i'll be mainly applying on gaswork or wherever there are job postings (which is in line with what recent graduates here have done). I don't have any real location limitations personally but my plan unfortunately is to apply more around where I trained, one reason being that it's hard to go far for interviews when you have to interview on post call days after getting off work at 8am and having work the next day unless i happen to have vacation days that work out with the interview days.
A quick search on gaswork shows 300 jobs total in the 3 states closest to me. Assuming 50% are scams, I'm probably looking at 100 applications (more if i get no interviews/offers). Ideally, i think the best approach would be to apply to the 'best jobs' first and go down the line, so if I do get an offer I can cancel the remaining interviews. However most of the job listings are pretty uninformative so it appears like I won't really get an idea of how great the job is until i interview, check out the location, talk to people, and look at contract, but then i'll only have a few weeks to decide if i want to take, or reject and HOPE someone else will hire me, which just seems like 1 large gamble.

So what do you think is the best approach? Should I start in July for a job for 12+ months later or should i start later? And should I send many resumes out at once (which i think would be worse for scheduling interviews on a tight residency schedule, but better if I do end up receiving more than 1 job offer since i can compare and choose in the few weeks limitation) or should I space them out (better for scheduling interviews, but probably worse for offer since may not have others to compare to)?
Other advice?

Thanks!

 

[IMGASMD]

Location location location. Narrow down where you want to be then go from there. You’re a senior resident, you should have a little more flexible schedule in a month or two. Post call Friday and do it that way. You’d have to be more selectively with far away interviews. Big AMCs will/should pay for your travel. Mom/pop shops, YMMV.

Of course if you’re only applying where you are, you have the resources of your faculty members and hopefully you are still in touch with some alums, your senior residents, chief residents. If you’re not from some academic powerhouse, some jobs may already shut their doors on you. Gasworks are decent for your run of the mill jobs. But obviously like people said before, best jobs are word of mouth with your own alums.

Send info to a few agents, both types, the ones work for the practices and ones that try to work for me. The ones work for the practice, obviously has no cost to you. The ones that would work for you, will want a few thousand to start look for you and a few percentage of your contract. Can be costly, but presumably the jobs are better fit for you.

I would suggest do a little digging of what type of setting that you would like. Most of AMC jobs will treat you like a number, some PP will try to court you with partnerships and/or somewhere in between. Where do you want to be in five years, ten years? Knowing that most people don’t stay at their first job can be comforting and worrisome.

It looks like a “good market” for anesthesiologists, but the little gems are harder to find.

PS. Locum is pretty busy right now too. May explore that too. That gives you a lot of flexibility, and ability to chase some cash before you settle.

 

[nimbus]

Location location location. Narrow down where you want to be then go from there. You’re a senior resident, you should have a little more flexible schedule in a month or two. Post call Friday and do it that way. You’d have to be more selectively with far away interviews. Big AMCs will/should pay for your travel. Mom/pop shops, YMMV.

Of course if you’re only applying where you are, you have the resources of your faculty members and hopefully you are still in touch with some alums, your senior residents, chief residents. If you’re not from some academic powerhouse, some jobs may already shut their doors on you. Gasworks are decent for your run of the mill jobs. But obviously like people said before, best jobs are word of mouth with your own alums.

Send info to a few agents, both types, the ones work for the practices and ones that try to work for me. The ones work for the practice, obviously has no cost to you. The ones that would work for you, will want a few thousand to start look for you and a few percentage of your contract. Can be costly, but presumably the jobs are better fit for you.

I would suggest do a little digging of what type of setting that you would like. Most of AMC jobs will treat you like a number, some PP will try to court you with partnerships and/or somewhere in between. Where do you want to be in five years, ten years? Knowing that most people don’t stay at their first job can be comforting and worrisome.

It looks like a “good market” for anesthesiologists, but the little gems are harder to find.

PS. Locum is pretty busy right too. May explore that too. That gives you a lot of flexibility, and ability to chase some cash before you settle.

Good advice overall but do not pay for an agent/recruiter. Desireable practices do not need or use them. Good candidates don’t need them. And they are clueless about what makes a job good or bad.

 

[IMGASMD]

Good advice overall but do not pay for an agent/recruiter. Desireable practices do not need or use them. Good candidates don’t need them. And they are clueless about what makes a job good or bad.

I looked in that route for a bit, so threw out there as a possibility. Asked for reference. The company managed to find an elder pediatric anesthesiologists who talked to me for an hour about her situation. By hiring them, it would certainly taking off some responsibilities off my plate, but they certainly don’t come cheap. I agree whole heartedly about all the agents are clueless, or they may think they’re expert in health care industry, (yes we are an money making industry....) but they have no clue each specialities own concerns.

Sometimes timing is everything too. Some smaller mom/pop shop that hasn’t hired in a while, now is looking 3 years out when x senior partners are retiring. Lastly, I highly recommend get a lawyer to look at your contract at the end. Don’t skip out on this step. I’ve seen too many colleagues around me that got f’ed when they trust “everyone in this practice has the same contract” bull carp.

 

[anbuitachi]

Location location location. Narrow down where you want to be then go from there. You’re a senior resident, you should have a little more flexible schedule in a month or two. Post call Friday and do it that way. You’d have to be more selectively with far away interviews. Big AMCs will/should pay for your travel. Mom/pop shops, YMMV.

Of course if you’re only applying where you are, you have the resources of your faculty members and hopefully you are still in touch with some alums, your senior residents, chief residents. If you’re not from some academic powerhouse, some jobs may already shut their doors on you. Gasworks are decent for your run of the mill jobs. But obviously like people said before, best jobs are word of mouth with your own alums.

Send info to a few agents, both types, the ones work for the practices and ones that try to work for me. The ones work for the practice, obviously has no cost to you. The ones that would work for you, will want a few thousand to start look for you and a few percentage of your contract. Can be costly, but presumably the jobs are better fit for you.

I would suggest do a little digging of what type of setting that you would like. Most of AMC jobs will treat you like a number, some PP will try to court you with partnerships and/or somewhere in between. Where do you want to be in five years, ten years? Knowing that most people don’t stay at their first job can be comforting and worrisome.

It looks like a “good market” for anesthesiologists, but the little gems are harder to find.

PS. Locum is pretty busy right now too. May explore that too. That gives you a lot of flexibility, and ability to chase some cash before you settle.

Def will look at locum too but do they even hire this early for 12 months later? I imagine they want locum to fill the need like now, not a year later

Also does anyone know if we can just bypass recruiter for locum ads? I see some postings that say stuff like 150$ a hr at level 1 trauma center in ___ Town. I mean it's not hard to know which hospital it's at when the town has 1 level 1 trauma center. Cant we just call up the hospital/anesth department directly to apply for locum? Is this frowned upon or not allowed or something?

 

[IMGASMD]

You may get on some of these companies mailing list. You’ll get more than what you ever want. They’ll call and email and harass you. But I think it’s part of the game. Some of these jobs will be something like locum to perm. I think earlier you start to learn about the market around where you want to be, the better.

You can certainly cold call some of these groups. You “may” get a better rate. But a lot of administrative stuff will fall on you. You may have to get through the hospital credentialing committee, you’ll have to get your own malpractice insurance. Here’s what I think will be the most detrimental mishaps, what if after one week, you absolutely hate the job? Now you’re stuck, or just wasted a month of your life, getting all the documents ready? Locum companies do serve a purpose. My wife had told me on more than one occasions, that I am mean to these agents; I don’t think I am ever “mean”. But I know these companies make money off my back/skill/license. I am firm about what I want and the rate I think I should get.

 

[anbuitachi]

You may get on some of these companies mailing list. You’ll get more than what you ever want. They’ll call and email and harass you. But I think it’s part of the game. Some of these jobs will be something like locum to perm. I think earlier you start to learn about the market around where you want to be, the better.

You can certainly cold call some of these groups. You “may” get a better rate. But a lot of administrative stuff will fall on you. You may have to get through the hospital credentialing committee, you’ll have to get your own malpractice insurance. Here’s what I think will be the most detrimental mishaps, what if after one week, you absolutely hate the job? Now you’re stuck, or just wasted a month of your life, getting all the documents ready? Locum companies do serve a purpose. My wife had told me on more than one occasions, that I am mean to these agents; I don’t think I am ever “mean”. But I know these companies make money off my back/skill/license. I am firm about what I want and the rate I think I should get.

Interesting. so with these recruiters you see on gaswork for locum jobs, you get malpractice thru them, not the hospital?

 

[IMGASMD]

Interesting. so with these recruiters you see on gaswork for locum jobs, you get malpractice thru them, not the hospital?

It depends. Most locum pay malpractice. Some smaller practices may have you get your own malpractice. Also depends on how long is the job (assignment).

I should quality, the practice pay the locum company a rate. Usually ~2x what you’re getting. You get 150, the locum company gets the other half for getting you there and hand hold you. Longer you stay, more they get.

 

[anbuitachi]

It depends. Most locum pay malpractice. Some smaller practices may have you get your own malpractice. Also depends on how long is the job (assignment).

I should quality, the practice pay the locum company a rate. Usually ~2x what you’re getting. You get 150, the locum company gets the other half for getting you there and hand hold you. Longer you stay, more they get.

thats an insane pay for the locum company!

 

[IMGASMD]

thats an insane pay for the locum company!

Going back to my wife’s comment..... I am not mean, I just want things closer to my terms.... that’s all.

They pay for your travel, license (in some cases) and malpractice. So... longer you stay, the happier they are. I think some states, maybe NY, is over 1k for license.

 

[anbuitachi]

Going back to my wife’s comment..... I am not mean, I just want things closer to my terms.... that’s all.

They pay for your travel, license (in some cases) and malpractice. So... longer you stay, the happier they are. I think some states, maybe NY, is over 1k for license.

yea but if i stay a year and make 250k, the locum company gets 250k. that sounds like a good gig for that amount of work for them!


Also, with locum it's 1099, which comes with its downside too right. don't you pay more tax as 1099? (regular tax + self employment tax)

 

[IMGASMD]

I’ve never learned to do my financial planning “right”. You’d have to ask others in the forum. I learned to write off some stuff. Home office, equipment, telephone bills, car lease/payment. Of course also look into IRA, since you can contribute as employer and employee. That’s all I know.....

 

[deleted171991]

www.whitecoatinvestor.com

 

[Robotic Wis-Hipple]

Do you not have attendings in your program that can help you network etc? Most programs have a network of past residents that are now out in practice that when they have a need will email your PD etc. Try to get in on that by letting your PD know you’re interested.

But otherwise I agree with the sentiments above; location, location, location. Narrow it down some and then apply. You should not need anywhere near 100 apps, I’d imagine <10 unless you’re literally just throwing darts.

 

[Hoya11]

For those of you who have experience hiring, or applying.. when would you say is the best time to apply for a job in CA3 year and what is your recommendation on how we should approach applying? From my understanding from reading past posts, groups typically give you 2-4 week time period after an offer to respond. I am trying to figure out the best approach to this since it seems much more complicated than applying to residency/medical school and the process is not designed in favor of the applicant, so I want to form a plan before i start applying.

I'll be going in with no fellowship and no prior real job experience other than the anesthesiology residency. My resume has no red flags, but also nothing else on it (no research, no awards, no presentations, nothing other than I'm in residency). I don't have connections so i'll be mainly applying on gaswork or wherever there are job postings (which is in line with what recent graduates here have done). I don't have any real location limitations personally but my plan unfortunately is to apply more around where I trained, one reason being that it's hard to go far for interviews when you have to interview on post call days after getting off work at 8am and having work the next day unless i happen to have vacation days that work out with the interview days.
A quick search on gaswork shows 300 jobs total in the 3 states closest to me. Assuming 50% are scams, I'm probably looking at 100 applications (more if i get no interviews/offers). Ideally, i think the best approach would be to apply to the 'best jobs' first and go down the line, so if I do get an offer I can cancel the remaining interviews. However most of the job listings are pretty uninformative so it appears like I won't really get an idea of how great the job is until i interview, check out the location, talk to people, and look at contract, but then i'll only have a few weeks to decide if i want to take, or reject and HOPE someone else will hire me, which just seems like 1 large gamble.

So what do you think is the best approach? Should I start in July for a job for 12+ months later or should i start later? And should I send many resumes out at once (which i think would be worse for scheduling interviews on a tight residency schedule, but better if I do end up receiving more than 1 job offer since i can compare and choose in the few weeks limitation) or should I space them out (better for scheduling interviews, but probably worse for offer since may not have others to compare to)?
Other advice?

Thanks!

My advice:

As others have said pick where you want to live first. 3 states is too big. Pick your #1 state and then even an ideal area in that state. Its not necessary to cast such a big net.

I would start seriously in January.

Dont go through a recruiter, not necessary for you.

And go with a W2, do you really want to arrange your own benefits/malpractice with your first gig all while moving and possibly not staying at this gig? no

Look on a map at all of the hospitals in your desired area, find the hospitals and google the anesthesia group there, directly call the anesthesia group. Fax your CV to 10-25 different groups in your ideal area.

Also put some calls out from Gaswork but I think that is lower yield for a good job and higher yield for a scam type position.

Dont be super nit picky about the contract unless major red flags. Some people get way too into it. Choose a group based on feel of the people in the group, the schedule, and the cases.

Personally, I would prioritize interviews at a private group then Academics then AMC. I would go on 5-10 interviews. Schedule them for your off days or vacation days as a resident. I would just fill in your vacation time with interviews as they come up

Good luck its an exciting time, keep in mind, despite all that you have known and read about this process, its a learning experience for everyone until you are actually working.

 

[GravelRider]

>95% of jobs on gasworks are scams, not 50%. There are also a lot of repeats...same job posted by different recruiters. You are a newbie so you will be lied to. Assume everyone is lying to you on the interview because they probably are. Assume your first job won’t be your last job. Definitely do not buy a house for at least 3 years after being at a job. Save and pay off loans.

Look out for red flags on the interview. A big one is if they don’t let you talk to any recent hires or you get the sense that there is a lot of turnover.

Locums could be a good option, but when you are first coming out it could be a little bit like being thrown to the wolves. Many of the hospitals looking for locums are perpetually understaffed and often don’t have good support structures in place to help transition out of residency. Locums is a better option when you inevitably leave your first job and have a little bit more confidence practicing independently.

Take a month or two off after residency.

 

[IMGASMD]

>95% of jobs on gasworks are scams, not 50%. There are also a lot of repeats...same job posted by different recruiters. You are a newbie so you will be lied to. Assume everyone is lying to you on the interview because they probably are. Assume your first job won’t be your last job. Definitely do not buy a house for at least 3 years after being at a job. Save and pay off loans.

Look out for red flags on the interview. A big one is if they don’t let you talk to any recent hires or you get the sense that there is a lot of turnover.

Locums could be a good option, but when you are first coming out it could be a little bit like being thrown to the wolves. Many of the hospitals looking for locums are perpetually understaffed and often don’t have good support structures in place to help transition out of residency. Locums is a better option when you inevitably leave your first job and have a little bit more confidence practicing independently.

Take a month or two off after residency.

It really depends on the markets and also AMC penetration.
Gasworks just feels easier for this generation. Everything is there, but like everyone else said, you really have to talk to them and decide for yourself.
There is also a thread in this particular sub about what questions to ask when you’re looking for a job.

 

[AdmiralChz]

It really depends on the markets and also AMC penetration.
Gasworks just feels easier for this generation. Everything is there, but like everyone else said, you really have to talk to them and decide for yourself.
There is also a thread in this particular sub about what questions to ask when you’re looking for a job.

Yeah - many of the jobs in my current state (including mine!) are actually pretty solid on gasworks. As long as you know what you are doing (avoiding “American Healthcare” is a start), it can be a valuable tool.

 

[anbuitachi]

It really depends on the markets and also AMC penetration.
Gasworks just feels easier for this generation. Everything is there, but like everyone else said, you really have to talk to them and decide for yourself.
There is also a thread in this particular sub about what questions to ask when you’re looking for a job.

At least to me gaswork easier because at least there's some info on there. But if I cold calling I could be doing it despite knowing nothing about them unless I know someone there with inside information. If the job on gaswork already says 200k with 10 calls a month I probably will not even apply

 

[B-Bone]

Applying to 100 gasworks jobs is insane. I would imagine that almost all of those would interview you, and you’re not going on 100 interviews. I applied to one job and have been here for 8 years. I don’t know anybody from my class or the years above/below me that applied to more than like 3 jobs out of residency. SDN always makes it seem like there are no good jobs out there, but they exist. Networking is definitely the way to go.

As posted above, the good jobs don’t genrrally advertise. Best idea is to email peoPle you know from a class or two ahead of you and get a lay of the land.

I would say that it’s pretty late to be applying even now as a CA-3. I think most jobs are aware that new grads are available in July(ish), and plan their hiring accordingly. If a group really needs someone before next July, they’re looking at current attendings looking to make a change. My group is always suspicious of folks who don’t have a job yet by summer or CA-3.

 

[anbuitachi]

Applying to 100 gasworks jobs is insane. I would imagine that almost all of those would interview you, and you’re not going on 100 interviews. I applied to one job and have been here for 8 years. I don’t know anybody from my class or the years above/below me that applied to more than like 3 jobs out of residency. SDN always makes it seem like there are no good jobs out there, but they exist. Networking is definitely the way to go.

As posted above, the good jobs don’t genrrally advertise. Best idea is to email peoPle you know from a class or two ahead of you and get a lay of the land.

I would say that it’s pretty late to be applying even now as a CA-3. I think most jobs are aware that new grads are available in July(ish), and plan their hiring accordingly. If a group really needs someone before next July, they’re looking at current attendings looking to make a change. My group is always suspicious of folks who don’t have a job yet by summer or CA-3.

wait are you talking the first summer of CA3 or the 2nd summer of CA3??

 

[IMGASMD]

wait are you talking the first summer of CA3 or the 2nd summer of CA3??

He’s saying now for you is considering late....
From what I know about your market, you’re fine..... you probably won’t find your dream job, but there are plenty.

 

[anbuitachi]

He’s saying now for you is considering late....
From what I know about your market, you’re fine..... you probably won’t find your dream job, but there are plenty.

Yea i thought so too but i wasn't sure since ive never heard of that one before... July of CA3 is late? wow

 

[IMGASMD]

A lot of more inside jobs are very “selective.” So if you really don’t have the inside track, you already lost out. or not really. If no one at the forest to hear it....
that’s also a nice way of telling you, if you’re not from the right pedigree, you won’t see those jobs either.
Those kind of jobs are probably more hierarchical too, so is PP compare to AMC.

 

[DrZzZz]

Yea i thought so too but i wasn't sure since ive never heard of that one before... July of CA3 is late? wow

I'd disagree on the start of CA-3 being late. I didn't reach out to any groups until late October or early November. Went on a few interviews, cancelled a few once I found what felt like the right gig. That one came up through a contact and had I been looking several months early in July, it wouldn't have been available to me. So I agree with IMGASMD, a lot of the better jobs you'll only find through contacts (alum, attendings you work with, etc), but to contrast what a lot of others feel about gaswork, there ARE some decent jobs on there. Just might take some elbow grease to comb through all the crap obscuring those good ones. But you really shouldn't need to apply or reach out to more than 5-8 places I think. A few I reached out to (cold calls or through contacts) weren't looking, but it wasn't hard to gather what I felt was an adequate number of interviews.

 

[IMGASMD]

What can someone do to get on that inside track? Is this a way of saying someone's residency program may lead to certain, otherwise unattainable, job opportunities?

Know your PD/Chairman well.... if you’re in an academic institution, know all the big wigs? Power begotten more power.

Wahahahahhahaaaaaaaa!

 

[deleted162650]

Is this a way of saying someone's residency program may lead to certain, otherwise unattainable, job opportunities?

Yes. 100%. When “premier” groups are looking for someone, they talk to their buds and ask who the rockstars are. You want to be on that list.

 

[B-Bone]

Know your PD/Chairman well.... if you’re in an academic institution, know all the big wigs? Power begotten more power.

Wahahahahhahaaaaaaaa!

This may be helpful, but honestly I think your best bet is the people you know from the years above you. They’ve been on the job hunt, seen a bunch of places, and (presumably) have a job where there might be an opening. Just by going through this a year or two before you, theyve done a bunch of the groundwork.

As far as the chair being helpful, for academics this is definitely good. For PP, I’m not so sure. A lot of chairs swing more ivory tower and may not have a lot of contacts in the private world. Your PD is probably a better resource just because they likely have a better handle on where recent grads ended up and can probably hook you up with contact info if you don’t have it.

When my group needs to hire, we reach out to the PD at our preferred program and just ask who’s good, who’s interested in PP, who’s interested in moving to our city, etc. we usually find them before they find us. We are generally looking at the CA-2 class to interview in the winter/spring and offer jobs in early summer (June/July) for the following year. Sometimes, if we have a real blue-chip candidate, we might offer a contract way earlier, like beginning of CA-2 year.

 

[waterbottle10]

This may be helpful, but honestly I think your best bet is the people you know from the years above you. They’ve been on the job hunt, seen a bunch of places, and (presumably) have a job where there might be an opening. Just by going through this a year or two before you, theyve done a bunch of the groundwork.

As far as the chair being helpful, for academics this is definitely good. For PP, I’m not so sure. A lot of chairs swing more ivory tower and may not have a lot of contacts in the private world. Your PD is probably a better resource just because they likely have a better handle on where recent grads ended up and can probably hook you up with contact info if you don’t have it.

When my group needs to hire, we reach out to the PD at our preferred program and just ask who’s good, who’s interested in PP, who’s interested in moving to our city, etc. we usually find them before they find us. We are generally looking at the CA-2 class to interview in the winter/spring and offer jobs in early summer (June/July) for the following year. Sometimes, if we have a real blue-chip candidate, we might offer a contract way earlier, like beginning of CA-2 year.

Im in the NY region and it is dominated by large academic centers or AMCs here and everyone works long hours 12 hour days or more and make 350-low 400s, factor in the cost of living and many commute from outside NY, aren't left with much personal time at all, so I'm trying to find a normal 40 hour job like the rest of America but i think people will think im lazy for working normal full time hours.

 

[deleted162650]

Im in the NY region and it is dominated by large academic centers or AMCs here and everyone works long hours 12 hour days or more and make 350-low 400s

No way man. I’d be like