Need advice on MD/MBA... when to do and what residencies offer?

[mark5hs]

Hey,

So I'm quite conflicted right now. I go to the University at Buffalo currently. Have 5 weeks left in my 3rd year. It's getting to that time when I figure out what to do with my life. One thing I'd like to do is obtain an MBA, for numerous reasons. My hometown (Buffalo) is opening up a new med school which will need a lot of leaders to get it going, and I think having the knowledge of an MBA would help me get a great position within that. I'd like the knowledge to successfully manage a group or private practice. And I'd like the flexibility to branch out from clinical work into areas like consulting and venture capital.

So now I'm trying to decide if I want to do it now, during med school, or later. If I apply for residency now, I'd be applying for IM and decided on fellowship later, though if I had to pick now probably pulm crit. That said, very much undecided in that regard, and I'd be happy working as a hospital internist too. If I did the MBA now, I'd probably keep exploring options and try to get research lined up in something competitive, like derm or surg onc. I was gunning for ENT for a while, but hated the rotation and kinda figured out it's not for me too late in the game.

My Step 1 is 245. I honored almost all of my preclinical courses but got high satisfactory on a lot of clerkships. I have a decent amount of research but just one publication (a case report in BMJ on which I'm first author)

Been brainstorming the pros and cons of doing it now or later.
Doing it here:
-gauranteed spot, I'd do a year between 3rd and 4th year of med school and for 4th year, it's first half medicine rotations, second have management classes
-from an education standpoint, program is pretty decent... everyone I've talked to is happy with it and it's ranked 81/462 for mba programs... not amazing, but competent
-Costs $16k... much cheaper than an executive program
-I'd like to live in Buffalo and I'd have opportunities to work with local administrators if I do it here
-It's a very easy courseload and I'd be able to do research during the year and get a paper or two
-Would make my residency application more competitive
-I've been really burned out and it'll be me a nice breather before residency
-Would continue to live at home during MBA

Doing it during residency:
-More elite program with more connections (though I'm not sure how important that'd be since I'd be coming back home)
-I'd be able to apply for elite programs like IM at UPenn to do the MBA at wharton, but matching into one wouldn't be guaranteed at all
-I'd have the opportunity to moonlight and make money during the MBA

Doing it as an attending:
-Would be competitive for very elite programs
-Will get more out of the education since I'll know how to apply it to clinical practice
-Would be much more expensive but I could keep working to pay for it
-I'll have kids by then so it would very challenging and a big demand on the family


Any advice as to which option would be best for me?
And does anyone know of what programs allow an MBA to be obtained during residency? Can't seem to find much info on google.


Thanks!

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[doc05]

you're rambling on. you need to determine your career goals.

if you envision yourself as a clinician/leader, then just do residency and follow with an executive MBA later on.
if you are looking to leave medicine and just be a business person, I recommend you graduate med school, then apply for a spot in a top MBA program.

as far as doing an MBA during residency, it's not feasible, since you will be short on time. perhaps if you do a 7 year surgical program, and do the MBA in lieu of research time -- but this will be program-dependent and not all will allow for it.

 

[cbrons]

I think an MBA is not a good idea and won't do anything for you except waste your time and money.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I think an MBA is not a good idea and won't do anything for you except waste your time and money.

It depends what you want to do with your career. You can easily get a really good hospital administrator position making over 350k even with a family medicine background. The same applies if you want to work for big pharma. If you seek to be private practice or a clinician, then I agree it is a waste of time. Just take some classes that may matter (e.g. accounting) at a community college.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

If you want to do something elite like venture capital getting an MBA from a 50+ ranked business school is probably going to be worse for you than not having an MBA at all. Ideally for VC you'd want Stanford.

 

[Merely]

Could you get a top MBA out of med school? Like will HBS or wharton accept someone just because they went to med school?

 

[atomi]

The majority of people who do these dual degree programs just want to stay in school a bit longer or don't know what they want to do. The only good reason to get an MBA is because you need it for a specific purpose in your career. If you want to practice clinical medicine forever, you don't need it. You don't need an MBA to figure out how to run a private practice on your own. You don't need an MBA to manage a small business. You certainly don't need it to work as a clinician for a large hospital.

 

[hacopeo]

Just take some classes that may matter (e.g. accounting) at a community college.

 

[avgn]

Could you get a top MBA out of med school? Like will HBS or wharton accept someone just because they went to med school?

Yes, they will. HBS will basically take any top med student who is willing to pay. This is from the horse's mouth, not hearsay. However I doubt UB med school will carry the same weight.

OP– it's a little late now in time for next year but you should consider applying to better business schools. Don't listen to the dual degree naysayers. Just make sure the MBA is worthy of your time and money (i.e., has to be a top school bc otherwise MBAs are worthless)

 

[Merely]

Why would they want a med student? I don't get it lol its not that hard to get into med school but really hard to get into harvard business? Seems strange

 

[avgn]

Why would they want a med student? I don't get it lol its not that hard to get into med school but really hard to get into harvard business? Seems strange

They just do. How would I know why? Probably because top med student are capable of most things an HBS student is capable of but not even close the other way around.

And did you just say it's harder to get into a single specific business school as opposed to any med school? Well, duh. It's also harder to get into a single specific med school as opposed to any business school. Getting into a single specific school for most degrees is hard. Or you mean med school in general is easier than business school? If the latter then wtf like no

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

Yes, they will. HBS will basically take any top med student who is willing to pay. This is from the horse's mouth, not hearsay. However I doubt UB med school will carry the same weight.

Can you elaborate on this point? Are you saying top MBA programs will take students only from top med school programs, or top students from any med school program?

 

[avgn]

Can you elaborate on this point? Are you saying top MBA programs will take students only from top med school programs, or top students from any med school program?

My personal observations have been that HBS happily takes students from top medical schools, schools the H considers to be its peers. I do not have anecdotes or evidence proving the contrary, that other med students cannot get into HBS. I doubt this is true but it probably is a lot harder. The MD/MBA students at my private UG but not top tier b-school were rarely from tippy top private med schools; most were from solid USNWR 20+ privates (sorry sorry but it's the best comparison I can give). I do not know that much about other b-schools specifically. But my knowledge of the general situation tells me that b-schools retain their prestige-focused lens when they admit med students. It does them no good to say they have a student from SUNY, but it's worthy for them to say they got someone from Yale. So I would expect a UB med student to not encounter much success at the top in the MBA process, not bc UB is bad, but bc top b-schools are self-emasculating prestige ******. But there are still many very very good b-schools OP could get into that are better than UB tbh

 

[novafan3000]

Definitely interested in this too... Christiana (Delaware system) offers a IM/MBA residency that seems super well integrated (so you can still focus on medicine)..

Is there a master list of MBA/IM residencies published anywhere by chance?

 

[Gastrapathy]

The MBA costs you more than the tuition. You lose a year of income. Add $200k to the price.

 

[bc65]

Disclaimer: I don't have an MBA but I know many and I'm married to one.

A full MBA degree will take 2 years and cost you about 65k each year in tuition alone at Stanford. You could do an executive MBA in less time, but what you learn from either MBA degree will not be very useful to you in medicine and will not be as useful as a hospital admin degree. Also, consider the opportunity cost of two lost years of lost peak physician income.

An MBA will not give you much useful knowledge. If you want to run a hospital, if anything, get a degree in hospital administration.

An MBA degree might be a bit helpful if you want to work for an investment firm, but they seem to look for people with MD/PhDs in drug-heavy fields ( ID, oncology). You would probably be better off training as an analyst for that job.

For running a group practice, an MBA will be close to useless.

 

[avgn]

@bc65 Many MBA programs will allow dual degrees with MD students so it only takes 1 extra year to complete. This has to be during school, though, obviously, usually after MS3. Doesn't change the decision calculus much but at least a little

 

[Mad Jack]

I think an MBA is not a good idea and won't do anything for you except waste your time and money.

If you want out of clinical medicine or to be an administrator, a top-name MBA can catapult you pretty high up the leadership chain. Keep in mind that most of the people in admin at the higher levels are NOT clinicians, at least in larger organizations. Having an MBA shows you're "one of them," and a good MBA with an excellent alumni network can open a lot of doors in that regard.

 

[Mad Jack]

Disclaimer: I don't have an MBA but I know many and I'm married to one.

A full MBA degree will take 2 years and cost you about 65k each year in tuition alone at Stanford. You could do an executive MBA in less time, but what you learn from either MBA degree will not be very useful to you in medicine and will not be as useful as a hospital admin degree. Also, consider the opportunity cost of two lost years of lost peak physician income.

An MBA will not give you much useful knowledge. If you want to run a hospital, if anything, get a degree in hospital administration.

An MBA degree might be a bit helpful if you want to work for an investment firm, but they seem to look for people with MD/PhDs in drug-heavy fields ( ID, oncology). You would probably be better off training as an analyst for that job.

For running a group practice, an MBA will be close to useless.

There are EMBAs out there with a healthcare executive focus (Yale has one that comes to mind). These give you the best of everything- reasonable course load you can do while working full-time, a health care focus, and a big name on your diploma.

 

[avgn]

There are EMBAs out there with a healthcare executive focus (Yale has one that comes to mind). These give you the best of everything- reasonable course load you can do while working full-time, a health care focus, and a big name on your diploma.

Keyword is that EMBAs are for "executives." Almost none of the programs out there are meant for practicing physicians. Not even the Yale ones. MDs could do it but they're not the target audience.

 

[Mad Jack]

Keyword is that EMBAs are for "executives." Almost none of the programs out there are meant for practicing physicians. Not even the Yale ones. MDs could do it but they're not the target audience.

Physicians are considered to be functioning at the executive level by many of these programs, so long as you have some administrative responsibilities. You shouldn't be looking at an MBA if you're a physician that is uninvolved in any of the business side of medicine, but a great number of physicians are. It's unavoidable really, unless you're in some lame-ass grunt position where you punch a clock in and out as a lowly employee (more and more doctors these days, sadly). You're going to be dealing with billing, you're going to be dealing with staffing, you're going to be dealing with regulations, etc etc. There's a reason why pretty much no MBA program will turn away physicians for lack of experience- for one, we're smart, and for two, we're typically always involved in the regulatory side of business, if not also the billing, staffing, and day-to-day operations. Yale's EMBA heavily recruited for physicians from YNHH for this very reason- they had exposure to many of the very problems and systems that the healthcare-focused EMBA was designed to combat, streamline, and repair.

 

[bc65]

Too long, sorry.

tl;dr: An MBA is useless for an MD unless you're already in a management position.

@bc65 Many MBA programs will allow dual degrees with MD students so it only takes 1 extra year to complete. This has to be during school, though, obviously, usually after MS3. Doesn't change the decision calculus much but at least a little

Fair point. I was thinking of an MBA from a top school. If OP won't be going to a top school
( and Buffalo isn't one of those) then he's wasting his time right now.

There are EMBAs out there with a healthcare executive focus (Yale has one that comes to mind). These give you the best of everything- reasonable course load you can do while working full-time, a health care focus, and a big name on your diploma.

Physicians are considered to be functioning at the executive level by many of these programs, so long as you have some administrative responsibilities. You shouldn't be looking at an MBA if you're a physician that is uninvolved in any of the business side of medicine, but a great number of physicians are. It's unavoidable really, unless you're in some lame-ass grunt position where you punch a clock in and out as a lowly employee (more and more doctors these days, sadly). You're going to be dealing with billing, you're going to be dealing with staffing, you're going to be dealing with regulations, etc etc. There's a reason why pretty much no MBA program will turn away physicians for lack of experience- for one, we're smart, and for two, we're typically always involved in the regulatory side of business, if not also the billing, staffing, and day-to-day operations. Yale's EMBA heavily recruited for physicians from YNHH for this very reason- they had exposure to many of the very problems and systems that the healthcare-focused EMBA was designed to combat, streamline, and repair.

An MBA will not teach much, if anything, that will be useful to a group practice. Business school teaches via case studies; students learn to develop business plans for large corporations, and how to analyze businesses. There's not much in an MBA curriculum that would be useful to a medical practice, unless you're getting into the level of running a hospital or a health plan. Even there, a hospital admin degree would be more useful for most.

Yes, I'm very familiar with executive MBAs. If I'm not mistaken, they still take several months of full time attendance, usually at least 2 to 4 weeks at a time, and will charge the full 2 year's tuition for that abbreviated degree.

Business schools are very business oriented. That's why they offer executive MBAa. They get to collect a lot of tuition. They don't care if you don't benefit from the degree. Acceptance rates for those are very high. For that reason, an eMBA degree won't have the same cache` as a regular degree, and having such a degree as a physician is not any more likely going to help you get a management degree than a law degree will, which is to say, pretty much not at all. An MBA, just like a JD, is not much use to an employer if you don't bring experience to go along with it. Without the experience, it's adding next to nothing to an MD degree. All the MD/MBAs I know got the MBA degree after they got a management job, not before. In fact, that's how most people do it, hence the premium on experience before going to business school. In fact, an MD without the experience of a residency is mostly useless to employers as well.

If you wanted a top business degree to impress someone, then you should go for a Stanford, Harvard, or Wharton degree. (Yale is ranked around #10 ).But there's no benefit to a med student getting an MBA from Buffalo. He's just wasting a year or two, paying tuition, and definitely incurring large opportunity costs, for a degree that's very unlikely to earn him any extra income later.

If an MD needs an MBA later, they can get it part time in evenings or online from a reputable school, or maybe then the company you work for will pay for them to get that executive MBA from Harvard or Stanford later on the company's dime.

From what I've seen, most executives who get MBA's just go back to their old jobs. Sure, lots of famous successful businessmen have Harvard MBAs. But that's not the same as saying that a Harvard MBA will make you rich and famous. Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg both dropped out of Harvard and became tech billionaires, but dropping out of Harvard is not a guaranteed path to wealth.

 

[Mad Jack]

Too long, sorry.

tl;dr: An MBA is useless for an MD unless you're already in a management position.




Fair point. I was thinking of an MBA from a top school. If OP won't be going to a top school
( and Buffalo isn't one of those) then he's wasting his time right now.





An MBA will not teach much, if anything, that will be useful to a group practice. Business school teaches via case studies; students learn to develop business plans for large corporations, and how to analyze businesses. There's not much in an MBA curriculum that would be useful to a medical practice, unless you're getting into the level of running a hospital or a health plan. Even there, a hospital admin degree would be more useful for most.

Yes, I'm very familiar with executive MBAs. If I'm not mistaken, they still take several months of full time attendance, usually at least 2 to 4 weeks at a time, and will charge the full 2 year's tuition for that abbreviated degree.

Business schools are very business oriented. That's why they offer executive MBAa. They get to collect a lot of tuition. They don't care if you don't benefit from the degree. Acceptance rates for those are very high. For that reason, an eMBA degree won't have the same cache` as a regular degree, and having such a degree as a physician is not any more likely going to help you get a management degree than a law degree will, which is to say, pretty much not at all. An MBA, just like a JD, is not much use to an employer if you don't bring experience to go along with it. Without the experience, it's adding next to nothing to an MD degree. All the MD/MBAs I know got the MBA degree after they got a management job, not before. In fact, that's how most people do it, hence the premium on experience before going to business school. In fact, an MD without the experience of a residency is mostly useless to employers as well.

If you wanted a top business degree to impress someone, then you should go for a Stanford, Harvard, or Wharton degree. (Yale is ranked around #10 ).But there's no benefit to a med student getting an MBA from Buffalo. He's just wasting a year or two, paying tuition, and definitely incurring large opportunity costs, for a degree that's very unlikely to earn him any extra income later.

If an MD needs an MBA later, they can get it part time in evenings or online from a reputable school, or maybe then the company you work for will pay for them to get that executive MBA from Harvard or Stanford later on the company's dime.

From what I've seen, most executives who get MBA's just go back to their old jobs. Sure, lots of famous successful businessmen have Harvard MBAs. But that's not the same as saying that a Harvard MBA will make you rich and famous. Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg both dropped out of Harvard and became tech billionaires, but dropping out of Harvard is not a guaranteed path to wealth.

Was just throwing it out there as an option- Yale has a specific healthcare track that focuses on hospital administration and the like, making it more of a MHA than an MBA in many ways. If I were to go the MBA route I'd probably just jump ship entirely and try to get into a non-EMBA program, as they tend to be a much better springboard into industries outside of healthcare or into pure administrative roles (because really, who wants to do medicine until they die with the system the way it is now). That's kind of neither here nor there in regard to the OP's question, I guess.

For the OP: don't do an MBA now. Don't do one during residency. Don't do one immediately after residency. You will see zero benefit from it. Wait until you've got a few years of practice under your belt.

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[avgn]

Fair point. I was thinking of an MBA from a top school. If OP won't be going to a top school
( and Buffalo isn't one of those) then he's wasting his time right now.

Actually what I said also applies to top schools. Top schools are actually the ones most open to ad hoc dual degrees from what I have seen. But my point previously was that the chances of a random UB med student getting into a top MBA are pretty low anyway...

 

[avgn]

Yale has a specific healthcare track that focuses on hospital administration and the like, making it more of a MHA than an MBA in many ways.

I have intimate knowledge of the Yale EMBA program and it is not as you describe. It does not focus on hospital administration.

 

[Mad Jack]

I have intimate knowledge of the Yale EMBA program and it is not as you describe. It does not focus on hospital administration.

That was likely prior to their splitting the program into three sub-foci. The health care focus option wasn't available until 2014, and requires one to take courses in health care management, economics, process improvement, etc.

http://som.yale.edu/programs/emba/curriculum/areas-focus/healthcare

 

[avgn]

That was likely prior to their splitting the program into three sub-foci. The health care focus option wasn't available until 2014, and requires one to take courses in health care management, economics, process improvement, etc.

http://som.yale.edu/programs/emba/curriculum/areas-focus/healthcare

I don't know what else to tell you. Howie Forman is a mentor and friend of mine. The program is for health care leadership broadly defined, not hospital administration. It is not anything like an MHA

 

[Stagg737]

An MBA will not teach much, if anything, that will be useful to a group practice. Business school teaches via case studies; students learn to develop business plans for large corporations, and how to analyze businesses. There's not much in an MBA curriculum that would be useful to a medical practice, unless you're getting into the level of running a hospital or a health plan. Even there, a hospital admin degree would be more useful for most.

Yes, I'm very familiar with executive MBAs. If I'm not mistaken, they still take several months of full time attendance, usually at least 2 to 4 weeks at a time, and will charge the full 2 year's tuition for that abbreviated degree.

Business schools are very business oriented. That's why they offer executive MBAa. They get to collect a lot of tuition. They don't care if you don't benefit from the degree. Acceptance rates for those are very high. For that reason, an eMBA degree won't have the same cache` as a regular degree, and having such a degree as a physician is not any more likely going to help you get a management degree than a law degree will, which is to say, pretty much not at all. An MBA, just like a JD, is not much use to an employer if you don't bring experience to go along with it. Without the experience, it's adding next to nothing to an MD degree. All the MD/MBAs I know got the MBA degree after they got a management job, not before. In fact, that's how most people do it, hence the premium on experience before going to business school. In fact, an MD without the experience of a residency is mostly useless to employers as well.

If you wanted a top business degree to impress someone, then you should go for a Stanford, Harvard, or Wharton degree. (Yale is ranked around #10 ).But there's no benefit to a med student getting an MBA from Buffalo. He's just wasting a year or two, paying tuition, and definitely incurring large opportunity costs, for a degree that's very unlikely to earn him any extra income later.

If an MD needs an MBA later, they can get it part time in evenings or online from a reputable school, or maybe then the company you work for will pay for them to get that executive MBA from Harvard or Stanford later on the company's dime.

From what I've seen, most executives who get MBA's just go back to their old jobs. Sure, lots of famous successful businessmen have Harvard MBAs. But that's not the same as saying that a Harvard MBA will make you rich and famous. Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg both dropped out of Harvard and became tech billionaires, but dropping out of Harvard is not a guaranteed path to wealth.

So let's assume for s**** and giggles that one could do an MBA at a top 20 program during med school, finish it without adding an extra year, and tuition of the program wasn't an issue. Do you think it would provide any benefit to an individual looking to go into health administration after residency in terms of landing a job or getting an initial pay bump?

 

[bc65]

It probably wouldn't hurt, and might help if you joined a very large group. I doubt that it would get you a pay bump unless you were applying for some sort of admin job. Be aware that most admin jobs would pay less than what most practicing MDs earn.

But realize that outside of your unlikely hypothetical, an MBA at a top school would take 2 years, or several months of intermittent attendance for an executive MBA program, and lots of tuition ( 65k a year for two years at a top program, for tuition alone).

You could attend at night or online through a decent, but not top, program, but probably not while in med school or residency. Business school is a full time proposition. Reverse the situation. Do you think a business student could get a medical degree while going to to business school?

While I believe that law and business are easier than medicine, and many med students would thrive in those schools, many would most definitely do poorly. Not everyone's brains work the same way, and some med students would be helpless in those environments.

Also, unless you have some experience in business and with the curriculum of business school, don't assume that you would like it enough to last longer than a day.

Finally, as I alluded to above, I know several physician managers with MBAs who have had leadership positions in hospitals and /or groups that I have worked in. Every one of them got executive MBAs after taking those jobs, not before. I'm not saying that having an MBA first might not have helped them get those jobs, but I think the chance of that degree paying off for an MD who doesn't already have a job lined up is pretty small.

 

[avgn]

So let's assume for s**** and giggles that one could do an MBA at a top 20 program during med school, finish it without adding an extra year, and tuition of the program wasn't an issue. Do you think it would provide any benefit to an individual looking to go into health administration after residency in terms of landing a job or getting an initial pay bump?

MBA would not automatically give a bump in either health administration or get better salaries. That's just not the point of it.

The main thing with the MBA that confuses people in their early/mid-20s is that it is not a self-containing program. It is a continuing education degree, meant to complement and expand on the business experience and skills that candidates already have prior to enrollment. Class is heavily case-oriented and discussion-based, which means for the average med student who was an average premed nerd, it is relatively low-yield to sit in that classroom. (Source: I took a health care course at the b-school in undergrad. Super interesting, talked about market competition and economic forces in the sector. Got an A- but I wasn't mature enough to glean anything useful from the class.) The point is that you will learn from your classmates' experiences as much as from the academic professors. Lots of group work and networking. Which is part of the reason why only top schools are worth it...the top business people/students tend to end up there.

@bc65 is being old-school and largely correct on his points. IMO, if the accomplished med student who wants to be involved in the business side of health care at some point, being able to do an MD/MBA in 5 years at a top b-school, it's not a crazy idea. Yeah it's not the best time to grab the connections since they'll be stale by the time you get out of residency, but if you take the curriculum seriously and are interested in the subject matter, there's plenty to learn. I, for one, have spoken to a lot of physicians who fiercely advocate about getting all the education done in one go. You never know what life is going to give you down the line, so if there's an opportunity to grab a solid top MBA with only an extra year as a dual degree, it's not as bad as this thread makes it seem. YMMV

 

[Law2Doc]

An MBA is not a degree meant to help you enter a field as manager and is not meant to help you run a medical practice. It's not like medicine where you get it before you can practice medicine or in law where you need it before you can practice law. The degree was designed to enhance existing skills. This is why the better MBA programs want at least 2 years of relevant work experience and why most of the top MBA programs are filled with people getting the degree in their employers dime. They get sent for the MBA, come back and get promoted, but they already had the business job -- this is just for enhancement. A lot of the value of an MBA is also networking so you also won't want to do it many years before you are going to be in a position where you'll need to use your business network. For doctors IMHO, the best plan is to wait until you are an attending and go get an executive MBA, which is a streamlined version you get over a bunch of weekends. You can usually get those at more prestigious places than you'd get via a dual degree and you'll have enough medical and hospital experience under your belt that the experience won't be a total waste.

 

[bc65]

I, for one, have spoken to a lot of physicians who fiercely advocate about getting all the education done in one go. You never know what life is going to give you down the line, so if there's an opportunity to grab a solid top MBA with only an extra year as a dual degree, it's not as bad as this thread makes it seem.

"only an extra year" sounds great now. But that year will cost you tuition, which runs as high as 65k a year, and might be higher for a condensed program. By the time you pay it off your costs will be higher due to interest. Add in the lost year of peak physician income, and the fact that your degree won't have any useful networking benefits. Assuming a physician income of $300,000 ( maybe 400 or 500k depending on specialty), this "only one extra year" is going to cost you at least $ 400,000. Just because someone said "get all the education done in one go", doesn't mean that A: it's true B: it applies to all degrees and C: that you should collect random degrees for which you have no plan on the off chance that 15 years from now you might have some use for the degree.

Degrees are useless without experience and a plan.

 

[Goro]

I had a neighbor who ran IT for a national firm offering online M A's for people who wanted to run law offices. i would imagine that similar programs exist to run medical offices, and would be more fruitful than an MBA.

An MBA is not a degree meant to help you enter a field as manager and is not meant to help you run a medical practice. It's not like medicine where you get it before you can practice medicine omit law where you need it before you can practice law. The degree was designed to enhance existing skills. This is why the better MBA programs want at least 2 years of relevant work experience and why most of the top MBA programs are filled with people getting the degree in their employers dime. They get sent for the MBA come back and get promoted. A lot of the value of an MBA is networking so you also won't want to do it years before you are going to be in a position where you'll need to use it. For doctors IMHO, the best plan is to wait until you are an attending and go get an executive MBA, which is a streamlined version you get over a bunch of weekends. You can usually get those at more prestigious places than you'd get via a dual degree and you'll have enough medical and hospital experience under your belt that the experience won't be a total waste.

 

[Stagg737]

MBA would not automatically give a bump in either health administration or get better salaries. That's just not the point of it.

The main thing with the MBA that confuses people in their early/mid-20s is that it is not a self-containing program. It is a continuing education degree, meant to complement and expand on the business experience and skills that candidates already have prior to enrollment. Class is heavily case-oriented and discussion-based, which means for the average med student who was an average premed nerd, it is relatively low-yield to sit in that classroom. (Source: I took a health care course at the b-school in undergrad. Super interesting, talked about market competition and economic forces in the sector. Got an A- but I wasn't mature enough to glean anything useful from the class.) The point is that you will learn from your classmates' experiences as much as from the academic professors. Lots of group work and networking. Which is part of the reason why only top schools are worth it...the top business people/students tend to end up there.

@bc65 is being old-school and largely correct on his points. IMO, if the accomplished med student who wants to be involved in the business side of health care at some point, being able to do an MD/MBA in 5 years at a top b-school, it's not a crazy idea. Yeah it's not the best time to grab the connections since they'll be stale by the time you get out of residency, but if you take the curriculum seriously and are interested in the subject matter, there's plenty to learn. I, for one, have spoken to a lot of physicians who fiercely advocate about getting all the education done in one go. You never know what life is going to give you down the line, so if there's an opportunity to grab a solid top MBA with only an extra year as a dual degree, it's not as bad as this thread makes it seem. YMMV

"only an extra year" sounds great now. But that year will cost you tuition, which runs as high as 65k a year, and might be higher for a condensed program. By the time you pay it off your costs will be higher due to interest. Add in the lost year of peak physician income, and the fact that your degree won't have any useful networking benefits. Assuming a physician income of $300,000 ( maybe 400 or 500k depending on specialty), this "only one extra year" is going to cost you at least $ 400,000. Just because someone said "get all the education done in one go", doesn't mean that A: it's true B: it applies to all degrees and C: that you should collect random degrees for which you have no plan on the off chance that 15 years from now you might have some use for the degree.

Degrees are useless without experience and a plan.

Kind of answers my question but not really. If you could gain an MBA without an extra year (ie, still finish med school in 4 years) from a top 20 school (not an elite school like you're talking about though), and the entire program cost less than 30k, would it be worth it? A few extra details to help describe. The program would mostly be with other med students but would have guest lecturers from local and major national businesses teaching and networking and would indeed deal with case scenarios relevant to those lecturers past experiences. This is in combination with some basic businesses courses like accounting and microeconomics.

 

[Law2Doc]

Kind of answers my question but not really. If you could gain an MBA without an extra year (ie, still finish med school in 4 years) from a top 20 school (not an elite school like you're talking about though), and the entire program cost less than 30k, would it be worth it? A few extra details to help describe. The program would mostly be with other med students but would have guest lecturers from local and major national businesses teaching and networking and would indeed deal with case scenarios relevant to those lecturers past experiences. This is in combination with some basic businesses courses like accounting and microeconomics.

The answer is still no, because you still don't have the basic skills to build on and enhance and because the networking value would be greater (not so far removed) if you got this at the END of your medical training rather than before.

Again, an MBA is meant to enhance your existing business skills, not be your initial foray. It's why all the better B schools generally require 2+ years of relevant experience to even apply.

You'll be collecting letters but not getting the true benefit.

 

[bc65]

If you could gain an MBA without an extra year (ie, still finish med school in 4 years) from a top 20 school (not an elite school like you're talking about though), and the entire program cost less than 30k, would it be worth it?

Again, no.

First of all, the fact that a school offers a program, doesn't mean that it's worth attending. You don't have to buy everything someone tries to sell you. The school just wants to look progressive and get more tuition, and the professor wants something new in their CV.

Next, students think degrees are much more valuable than they really are. Look at all the unemployed law school graduates. Look at the underemployed college grads. A degree require appropriate experience to be valuable to an employer.

Because you are a student, with no real work and career experience, you are putting too much value on the degree. A degree is often necessary, but by no means sufficient, for a successful career.

Try reversing the situation: Let's say you graduated med school and business school, and worked as a highly ranked executive in a major corporation for 10 years. You never did an internship or residency. Then you apply for a job as an internist. Will you get hired? Of course not.

Now try this: Same scenario, but after you graduated you did an internship and got a license, then worked in business for 10 years. Now you apply. Will you get the job? No, still no experience.

Ok, what if you did a full medicine residency, then worked in business 10 years and apply for the job. Now will you be hired as an internist? No, because you haven't been practicing lately. They would rather hire a recent grad, or a practicing internist.

What if you finish med school, and you're a cardiac surgeon, and after 10 years you apply for a job as an ophthalmologist? What if you apply for a job as an internist? No and No. You have the wrong kind of experience.

In other words, your degree must be followed by specific experience that will be useful to your employer, and will be more useful than what other applicants are offering. A hospital looking for an MBA needs an MBA, and wants an MBA with 10 years experience, not an MD with no MBA experience who took a few courses 5 or 10 or 15 years ago and probably can't even balance his checkbook. In fact, the very fact that you took a useless course like that and got that useless degree might be a red flag for any potential employer that you have very poor business sense.

 

[cbrons]

It depends what you want to do with your career. You can easily get a really good hospital administrator position making over 350k even with a family medicine background. The same applies if you want to work for big pharma. If you seek to be private practice or a clinician, then I agree it is a waste of time. Just take some classes that may matter (e.g. accounting) at a community college.

I very seriously doubt it is easy to get a cush do nothing job by just having an MBA. Getting an MBA is a waste of time unless it comes from Harvard or Wharton, and even then it is of dubious value if you are practicing physician.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I very seriously doubt it is easy to get a cush do nothing job by just having an MBA. Getting an MBA is a waste of time unless it comes from Harvard or Wharton, and even then it is of dubious value if you are practicing physician.

I said an administrator job would be easy to get. I didn't say it was do nothing or in an ideal location. I would generally agree you need a respectable (not necessarily elite) MBA. For example any UC degree.

 

[Stagg737]

Again, no.

First of all, the fact that a school offers a program, doesn't mean that it's worth attending. You don't have to buy everything someone tries to sell you. The school just wants to look progressive and get more tuition, and the professor wants something new in their CV.

Next, students think degrees are much more valuable than they really are. Look at all the unemployed law school graduates. Look at the underemployed college grads. A degree require appropriate experience to be valuable to an employer.

Because you are a student, with no real work and career experience, you are putting too much value on the degree. A degree is often necessary, but by no means sufficient, for a successful career.

Try reversing the situation: Let's say you graduated med school and business school, and worked as a highly ranked executive in a major corporation for 10 years. You never did an internship or residency. Then you apply for a job as an internist. Will you get hired? Of course not.

Now try this: Same scenario, but after you graduated you did an internship and got a license, then worked in business for 10 years. Now you apply. Will you get the job? No, still no experience.

Ok, what if you did a full medicine residency, then worked in business 10 years and apply for the job. Now will you be hired as an internist? No, because you haven't been practicing lately. They would rather hire a recent grad, or a practicing internist.

What if you finish med school, and you're a cardiac surgeon, and after 10 years you apply for a job as an ophthalmologist? What if you apply for a job as an internist? No and No. You have the wrong kind of experience.

In other words, your degree must be followed by specific experience that will be useful to your employer, and will be more useful than what other applicants are offering. A hospital looking for an MBA needs an MBA, and wants an MBA with 10 years experience, not an MD with no MBA experience who took a few courses 5 or 10 or 15 years ago and probably can't even balance his checkbook. In fact, the very fact that you took a useless course like that and got that useless degree might be a red flag for any potential employer that you have very poor business sense.

So then what's the point in ever getting an MBA as an MD? If one needs business experience to get into a decent business school but can't be hired for an administrative position without an MBA, how did the MDs in that position get the business experience needed to get the job in the first place? Cronyism? I just find it hard to believe that getting an MBA would be completely useless or would actually hurt a potential job candidate (assuming they actually used the degree after they got it).

 

[bc65]

So then what's the point in ever getting an MBA as an MD?

Now you've got it! For almost all MDs, there's no point in an MBA.

An MBA teaches you how to analyze a company's balance sheet, how to determine where and how to invest. (Disclaimer: this is all second hand knowledge)

You learn business case studies: How various companies failed, and how others succeeded. You might study Facebook and figure out why they succeeded when Myspace and Friendster failed. You might study Blockbuster vs Netfix.

You will learn some business law and ethics, and issues surrounding doing business internationally.

So, to the extent that you learn some basic marketing, some HR ( human resources ) there might be some benefit. But you won't be doing stock analysis or doing much balance sheet evaluation for a medical group or a hospital.

Remember, business schools expect you to have at least 2 years of experience in management in business before applying ( business schools are called "schools of management"). How can you expect to get anything out of business school if you show up without the most basic pre-requisite?

So, in practice, when a physician moves up to management of a large group or a hospital, the company will send them off to do an executive MBA. (After they have experience, just the way business schools want it!) It probably won't help the company or the doctor, but now the doc has a degree, which might give him more credibility and might even help a bit with managing the business. But it's not very cost effective.

If you got such a degree now, it might help you get a management position someday, but you won't be getting such a job until you've been in practice for a few years and have credibility, and if that becomes something you're interested in, you can do an evening MBA or online program or even executive MBA program then, when you'll have a reason to do it , and maybe someone else will pay, and you'll have the life and practice experience to make better use of what you're learning.

If you do your program now, you're spending $30,000 ( which will grow to $60,000 by the time you pay it back ) and spending a lot of time that would be better spent learning medicine, or sleeping, on the unlikely chance that you will learn and remember something that you might use 10 years from now in a job that you will probably never get and won't even want, and won't understand when you learned it because you had no experience.

There's a book published by SDN, as it happens, by Tom Harbin, MD , MBA, "The Business Side of Medicine, what medical schools don't teach you". You can get it on Amazon for $15, $9,99 on Kindle. I have it ( I have a large collection of medical finance books, among others).
He divides the book into 3 parts. Part 1 is personal finance, and Part 3 is practice advice. The second part is devoted to describing what he learned in his executive MBA courses that are applicable to medicine. Those chapters are rather sparse. Go ahead and invest the $10 or $15 and see what he has to say. That might help you make up your mind, when you see how little applies to medicine.

I think if you're going to open your own practice, you might benefit by learning some basic accounting ( an MBA won't likely teach you that, either) . Otherwise, I don't think that this material is geared towards most physician managers.

Also, understand that lots of fields having to do with finance don't really overlap much. Just as psychiatry and neurology and neurosurgery don't overlap much, or dermatology and plastic surgery, so too, hospital admin, accounting, business analysts, personal financial advisers, MBAs, and economists all have very little in common with each other.

I just find it hard to believe that getting an MBA would be completely useless or would actually hurt a potential job candidate

This was a bit of hyperbole on my part. It won't really hurt, although if someone applies for a job as an MD in my group and tells me that they got an MBA or a JD while in med school, I'll probably roll my eyes a bit and wonder about their judgement, and their commitment to medicine.

 

[doc05]

So then what's the point in ever getting an MBA as an MD? If one needs business experience to get into a decent business school but can't be hired for an administrative position without an MBA, how did the MDs in that position get the business experience needed to get the job in the first place? Cronyism? I just find it hard to believe that getting an MBA would be completely useless or would actually hurt a potential job candidate (assuming they actually used the degree after they got it).

Exactly. There is no point. I'd venture to guess that maybe 5% of those with MD and MBA actually put both degrees to good use.

The utility of the MBA is (1) networking (but if you'll be doing residency and practicing (even for just a few years), those contacts will become stale and useless; (2) developing business "skills" (which you won't put to good use as a clinician); and (3) for the letters "MBA" after your name (which everyone knows is a load of crap anyway).

Remember this: most MD's in leadership positions with healthcare systems are experienced, having moved into those positions over time. They don't need the MBA. They have led departments or divisions, and with those responsibilities segued into the business side of things. Their years of experience lend legitimacy to having an MD in a non-clinical leadership position with the hospital. So it's doubtful you'll get there right out of residency. At that point, with or without the MBA you have zero useful experience... so why would you ever get hired?

 

[bc65]

Remember this: most MD's in leadership positions with healthcare systems are experienced, having moved into those positions over time. They don't need the MBA. They have led departments or divisions, and with those responsibilities segued into the business side of things. Their years of experience lend legitimacy to having an MD in a non-clinical leadership position with the hospital. So it's doubtful you'll get there right out of residency. At that point, with or without the MBA you have zero useful experience... so why would you ever get hired?

Exactly this.

The way you get involved in administration is that you volunteer for all the painful committee meetings that no one wants to attend. Your dept. chief might make you do the call schedule, because he's tired of doing it and everyone hates him for it. So you do it. Maybe you're good at it, or maybe you're a sadistic sociopath who likes making everyone miserable. In any case, over time, you get more and more dept. responsibility. Maybe you go to the hospital -wide meetings when the chief can't be there, where you get positive notice by higher ups because you never disagree with them and enthusiastically support every stupid idea administration suggests. ( If you do disagree they will make sure you never show up again ). Because you become recognized as a suck-up, eventually you're made assistant dept chief, and eventually chief. You have to make sure no one uses too many supplies or overtime ( budget issues ) That doesn't require accounting skills. You have to mediate some disputes, maybe get some staff fired or transferred. Along the way, you get sent to a variety of seminars on diversity, on "having difficult conversations", on "dealing with difficult employees", on "team building". All are more painful than you can imagine. Your main job is to make sure all the terrible new policies that administration comes up with get implemented, and to squash all complaints and rebellion. In other words, you're like the French Vichy government collaborating with the German Nazi occupiers during world war 2. ( Google it if you're not familiar). If you eventually get promoted up to assistant to the hospital chief, or even the big boss level, you'll be sent off to get an MBA. But it won't do you much good there either. You'll have marketing consultants doing the marketing, and there's not much that networking, production issues, etc that you can do that will make an MBA useful.

Now, having heard all that, perhaps you can see that when you walk into a new job, no one will make you chief of anything, since you don't know much about being a doctor, you don't know the hospital or the people in it, and you don't have anyone's respect or any credibility to be appointed to any level of responsibility, and won't for several years. And your MBA won't make any difference to anyone unless and until you're a candidate for top management already anyway. At that point it might help a bit to people who don't know better.

 

[avgn]

This was a bit of hyperbole on my part. It won't really hurt, although if someone applies for a job as an MD in my group and tells me that they got an MBA or a JD while in med school, I'll probably roll my eyes a bit and wonder about their judgement, and their commitment to medicine.

Wow this was hard to read. This kind of toxic cynicism is truly one of the reasons why medicine is so slow to change or respond to new ideas. What's it to you what dual degree somebody got? Are the only useful combos MD/PhD or MD/MPH? How do you know they didn't have concrete reasons for getting them? Somebody put in some extra time as a student and you automatically question their commitment as a physician? What a load of ****

 

[bc65]

Wow this was hard to read. This kind of toxic cynicism is truly one of the reasons why medicine is so slow to change or respond to new ideas. What's it to you what dual degree somebody got? Are the only useful combos MD/PhD or MD/MPH? How do you know they didn't have concrete reasons for getting them? Somebody put in some extra time as a student and you automatically question their commitment as a physician? What a load of ****

I'm truly sorry that the world doesn't conform to your fantasies.

As I pointed out above, if you take a year off and borrow $30,000 ($30,000 !!! That's a lot of money ) and a year off from med school ( which will cost you an additional 400-500k in lost earnings!) to get a degree that is, in my opinion, and the opinion of all the other posters here who have actually practiced medicine, a complete waste of time and money, I will think that you're an idiot. So will most other doctors.

You want to take time off from med school to train for the Olympics? Sounds good to me. You want to get a PhD in music ? Sure, go ahead. You can get a PhD in music if you'd like. I won't hold that against you. But if you tell me that it's to help your medical career, I'll think you're an idiot also.

I'm giving advice based on my experience. You can take it or leave it, as you wish. Good luck.

 

[avgn]

That is such a sorry attitude. It's not all about money, though I understand your position as an attending probably with family to raise. To impose your money-oriented views on others is in poor, poor taste. I'm not defending the dual MBA as a smart option. You just have a sorry ass attitude. I'm truly sorry, too.

 

[bc65]

That is such a sorry attitude. It's not all about money, though I understand your position as an attending probably with family to raise. To impose your money-oriented views on others is in poor, poor taste. I'm not defending the dual MBA as a smart option. You just have a sorry ass attitude. I'm truly sorry, too.

What's in poor taste is squandering $30,000 that will grow to $60,000 for absolutely no benefit. Think of what you could do with the money you plan on throwing away! You could give it to charity. Actually, You'd be way better off spending it on hookers and cocaine than an MBA. That way you wouldn't have to work so hard.

You will understand the magnitude of taking a year off and spending $30,000 or more as soon as you have to start paying back your loans, or perhaps when it's time to retire and you realize that you don't have any money saved.

Sure, go ahead and learn more. But you don't need a degree for that. Just read some books. Several of us who know what we're talking about have explained to you why it's a bad idea to get an MBA with no actual experience. But precisely because of your lack of real world experience, you're going to do what you want. That's fine with me.

Just wait until you have to earn a living and pay taxes and try to save money so you can retire some day. Then you'll realize how foolish you are.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[avgn]

Lolol thanks but no thanks. I have no interest in getting an MBA. I actually called physicians who are interested in doing so to start companies losers in another thread this week. I was the first one in this thread to point out that the MBA is a continuing education degree that builds off of prior experience, so don't preach that to me. Ease off on the condescension, I am not some straight through starry-eyed med student.

That does not prevent me from saying your money-oriented views and judgment of other people constitute a sorry ass attitude. If you think someone will make a poor physician bc they made this kind of decision for themselves and you won't like it if they're in your practice group, that is a stupid attitude. Yeah yeah blah blah I'm an attending I know more about what makes a good physician wtf are you but your attitude sucks.

 

[avgn]

Damn double posts

 

[doc05]

Wow this was hard to read. This kind of toxic cynicism is truly one of the reasons why medicine is so slow to change or respond to new ideas. What's it to you what dual degree somebody got? Are the only useful combos MD/PhD or MD/MPH? How do you know they didn't have concrete reasons for getting them? Somebody put in some extra time as a student and you automatically question their commitment as a physician? What a load of ****

Actually, the MD/PhD is useless about 98% of the time, because in the real world, you either practice medicine, or do research, but almost never both. Likewise, the MPH may be useful for a few, but it's a waste most of the time - especially if it's a combined degree program while you're still a student and don't actually know where your career will take you.

 

[Law2Doc]

... Are the only useful combos MD/PhD or MD/MPH? ...

Um yeah, I think I and a lot of others on here would agree with that statement in terms of dual degree programs. And that includes some of us who ultimately ended up with multiple degrees. Getting the dual degree MD/MBA kind of misses the point of an MBA as a means to enhance existing skills and to network in the industry shortly before becoming involved in that function. I think what makes much more sense to most of us is to wait until you need the MBA and have the skills to build on and then go get an executive MBA.