Need advice on MD/MBA... when to do and what residencies offer?

[Law2Doc]

Actually, the MD/PhD is useless about 98% of the time, because in the real world, you either practice medicine, or do research, but almost never both. Likewise, the MPH may be useful for a few, but it's a waste most of the time - especially if it's a combined degree program while you're still a student and don't actually know where your career will take you.

To be fair it's MUCH MUCH easier to use, and thus justify, these dual degree combos as compared to MD/MBA or MD/JD.

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[MudPhudHopeful]

Actually, the MD/PhD is useless about 98% of the time, because in the real world, you either practice medicine, or do research, but almost never both. Likewise, the MPH may be useful for a few, but it's a waste most of the time - especially if it's a combined degree program while you're still a student and don't actually know where your career will take you.

Actually, quite a significant percentage of MD/PhD graduates do both. See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20186033

 

[avgn]

So the logic is that if a physician would need a degree one day (**** the MBA, even like an MPH or MPP or whatever the hell) he should do it when he's sure of the opportunities to put it to use. Otherwise he's a dumb starry-eyed idiot to be looked down upon forever. This would be during his practice so go back to school and assume the family can take either a single income or none at all. Or do some part-time night degree at a ****ty local program. Or just forget whatever the opportunity is. Or do the job and suck at it.

That doesn't sound like great logic. Are these scenarios common? Of course not. Dual degree people typically want to be leaders of some sort; we're not talking about average joes. Some people know what kind of career they would like and would pursue it. Putting down every single dual degree option out there (though I personally agree with the PhD and MBA ones) just because you don't think it's useful is a great example of the ridigity, risk-averse, and above all, resistant to change culture of medicine. Call me dumb for being a student all you want. It's a problem.

 

[Law2Doc]

So the logic is that if a physician would need a degree one day (**** the MBA, even like an MPH or MPP or whatever the hell) he should do it when he's sure of the opportunities to put it to use. Otherwise he's a dumb starry-eyed idiot to be looked down upon forever. This would be during his practice so go back to school and assume the family can take either a single income or none at all. Or do some part-time night degree at a ****ty local program. Or just forget whatever the opportunity is. Or do the job and suck at it.

That doesn't sound like great logic. Are these scenarios common? Of course not. Dual degree people typically want to be leaders of some sort; we're not talking about average joes. Some people know what kind of career they would like and would pursue it. Putting down every single dual degree option out there (though I personally agree with the PhD and MBA ones) just because you don't think it's useful is a great example of the ridigity, risk-averse, and above all, resistant to change culture of medicine. Call me dumb for being a student all you want. It's a problem.

Um no, you aren't really listening. The timing of an MBA matters more than having the letters. You want to do it late enough in your career that you have professional skills to build on, and late enough that any networking you do isn't stale. So doing an MBA right out of college and before your training is pointless.

The executive MBAs you'd do later tend to be at one of the top programs BTW, not at "some $&@ty local program". The places that offer dual degrees are less likely to be as prestigious.

 

[avgn]

Um no, you aren't really listening. The timing of an MBA matters more than having the letters. You want to do it late enough in your career that you have professional skills to build on, and late enough that any networking you do isn't stale. So doing an MBA right out of college and before your training is pointless.

The executive MBAs you'd do later tend to be at one of the top programs BTW, not at "some $&@ty local program". The places that offer dual degrees are less likely to be as prestigious.

I was talking about all dual degrees since you came in here railing against them all. Note I even said "**** the MBA" at the beginning of the comment. It seemed like people were saying even an MPH would be a waste if one weren't 100% sure it would do their career good. That seems a little excessive so I wanted to clarify the logic.

Like I said, I get the MBA argument. It's just the blatant judgment of "I think you're a ******* and bad physician if you do it" seems kinda toxic." In any case, you're partially wrong. EMBAs are usually great but most of the top business schools offer MD/MBAs as well I believe.

 

[Law2Doc]

I was talking about all dual degrees since you came in here railing against them all. Note I even said "**** the MBA" at the beginning of the comment. It seemed like people were saying even an MPH would be a waste if one weren't 100% sure it would do their career good. That seems a little excessive so I wanted to clarify the logic.

Like I said, I get the MBA argument. It's just the blatant judgment of "I think you're a ******* and bad physician if you do it" seems kinda toxic." In any case, you're partially wrong. EMBAs are usually great but most of the top business schools offer MD/MBAs as well I believe.

First very few of the top schools offer MD/MBAs. It's mostly a mid tier gambit. And why not - it's easy money even if the recipient doesn't get the same value. Business schools are in business to make money. All the top schools do offer executive MBAs, however. So you can get that Crimson "H" on your sweat shirt later, when it actually makes sense.

Second, I didn't come on here "railing against all dual degree programs". (I actually defended the MD/PhD.) Another poster did but you apparently are not able to distinguish amongst multiple viewpoints disagreeing with different aspects of your post. But I stand by my position that MD/JD and MD/MBA aren't good combos. And that an MBA, if needed, should be obtained later.

Third, I guess I missed where anyone actually called you a "*******" but I think you need to bear in mind that a lot of what you think ought to be true early on in your schooling might not be seen as the wisest course from a later perspective. Not knowing something doesn't make you a "*******" but not listening to friendly advice from people further down the road sometimes just might. Either way you'll need much thicker skin for both medicine and management. You can't hurl around the &$&@ing swear words but be wounded being called *******.

 

[avgn]

Nobody called me a *******, I know that. But the other guy literally said he thinks they're all idiots with dubious commitment to medicine. That's what I took issue with and still the only thing I take issue with. It's not the best decision but they are far from flat out idiots. I don't think any of you are able to understand what aspects I disagree with either. You assume I'm interested in the MBA, you assume I believe a dual MBA is great (I only said it's not too crazy, hardly an endorsement), you think I'm starry-eyed based on what I write but you miss the point. Big time.

Again, I agree on the MBA points but the attitude is a problem (just as much as you think I have a problem). But y'all don't seem to get that even though I've stated it again and again so this can end now. 😕

 

[avgn]

The places that offer dual degrees are less likely to be as prestigious.

First very few of the top schools offer MD/MBAs. It's mostly a mid tier gambit.

Omg I can't get past this. Why do you insist on this when you don't know? Wrong. So wrong. Can you like stop stating these things as fact and potentially confusing people who might read this later?

Harvard http://hms.harvard.edu/departments/...ms/504-md-mba-program-harvard-business-school

Stanford https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/programs/mba/academic-experience/joint-dual-degrees

Chicago Booth https://pritzker.uchicago.edu/page/md-mba

Penn Wharton http://www.med.upenn.edu/educ_combdeg/mdmba.shtml

NW Kellogg http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/fin_aid/admitted/mdmba.htm

Dartmouth Tuck https://geiselmed.dartmouth.edu/ed_programs/md_mbaprog/

Yale http://som.yale.edu/programs/joint-degrees/mba-md-yale-school-medicine

Columbia http://ps.columbia.edu/education/academic-career-planning/dual-degree-programs-academic-tracks/mdmba

UVA Darden https://med.virginia.edu/admissions/programs/md-mba/

Duke Fuqua http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/daytime-mba/joint-degree/md-mba/

Cornell Johnson http://weill.cornell.edu/education/admissions/cur_md_mba.html

Mich Ross https://www2.bus.umich.edu/MyiMpact/academics/dual-degree-opportunities-medicine

UCLA Anderson http://www.anderson.ucla.edu/degrees/mba-program/admissions/concurrent-degrees

NYU Stern
http://www.med.nyu.edu/school/student-resources/student-affairs/masters-programs/mdmba

Every single one is 5 years combined, outside applicants welcome. Berkeley Haas is the only one that don't got one bc...well it has no med school.

 

[Law2Doc]

Omg I can't get past this. Why do you insist on this when you don't know? Wrong. So wrong. Can you like stop stating these things as fact and potentially confusing people who might read this later?

Way to focus on a tangential comment and miss the big picture - kudos. I'll give you props for calling me out on that. However:

First you've conveniently left out a few of the top 10 MBA programs that don't offer this option (Berkeley you mentioned MIT you didn't, etc).

Second, you've bolstered your list by going well outside of what US news lists as the top dozen or so MBA programs. We obviously view top tier differently.

Third, are you saying you got into Harvard or Stanford med, etc? By all means go-- but I still personally recommend skipping the MBA part for now, it won't add much to that pedigree. But If you aren't competitive for these why are you even wasting time looking.

And finally, these schools all offer executive MBA programs, which I've said is the much better strategy for someone who anticipates a future need for both degrees. Again -- yours is just a bad game plan.

People in here have given you pretty good reasons why the MD/MBA is a poor combo -- you have no skills to enhance and build on at this point in your career, it's an added cost and year you might never use, and the networking will be stale by the time you complete your medical training. Your only response seems to be -- but if someplace is willing to charge me money for this, then gee there must be a value. But insisting that the fact MD/MBA programs exist is a good enough reason you should want to go to one is just silly. Please.

You've heard the arguments against. Now you'll just have to figure it out yourself. And apparently just go do what you always intended to do - rendering all this threads good advice pointless. Good luck.

 

[avgn]

So after you read all of this, especially the bolded parts:

The main thing with the MBA that confuses people in their early/mid-20s is that it is not a self-containing program. It is a continuing education degree, meant to complement and expand on the business experience and skills that candidates already have prior to enrollment.

so if there's an opportunity to grab a solid top MBA with only an extra year as a dual degree, it's not as bad as this thread makes it seem.

I'm not defending the dual MBA as a smart option.

I have no interest in getting an MBA. I actually called physicians who are interested in doing so to start companies losers in another thread this week.

Putting down every single dual degree option out there (though I personally agree with the PhD and MBA ones) just because you don't think it's useful

Note I even said "**** the MBA" at the beginning of the comment.

Like I said, I get the MBA argument.

But the other guy literally said he thinks they're all idiots with dubious commitment to medicine. That's what I took issue with and still the only thing I take issue with. It's not the best decision but they are far from flat out idiots. I don't think any of you are able to understand what aspects I disagree with either.

Again, I agree on the MBA points but the attitude is a problem.

Your conclusion is this:

Your only response seems to be -- but if someplace is willing to charge me money for this, then gee there must be a value. But insisting that the fact MD/MBA programs exist is a good enough reason you should want to go to one is just silly.

Really? You used to be a lawyer? C'mon man

Are you purposely not reading what I actually say or are you busy so you just skim? Because from the above you see that I don't like the dual MBA either, it's not a good use of time or money. But is it a crazy stupid, life-changing big mistake that @bc65 should judge you hardcore for and doubt your commitment to medicine because of it? No, it is not. This is the point I've been trying to get across but noooooooooooooooo just keep insisting I'm in support of the program.

P.S. How could there be MD/MBA at MIT Sloan? There's no MD there, just like Berkeley.
P.P.S. Every single top business school is accounted for in my list once you add the MIT exception. I expanded the list to 16 just to show my point. The real elite is the M7; only Sloan doesn't have the combined.
P.P.P.S. I am competitive for them but again, I am not interested.
P.P.P.P.S. Doesn't seem like you know much about business school names. I know more about the current existence of MD/MBA programs.

 

[Law2Doc]

So after you read all of this, especially the bolded parts:

Your conclusion is this:

Really? You used to be a lawyer? C'mon man

Are you purposely not reading what I actually say or are you busy so you just skim? Because from the above you see that I don't like the dual MBA either, it's not a good use of time or money. But is it a crazy stupid, life-changing big mistake that @bc65 should judge you hardcore for and doubt your commitment to medicine because of it? No, it is not. This is the point I've been trying to get across but noooooooooooooooo just keep insisting I'm in support of the program.

P.S. How could there be MD/MBA at MIT Sloan? There's no MD there, just like Berkeley.
P.P.S. Every single top business school is accounted for in my list once you add the MIT exception. I expanded the list to 16 just to show my point. The real elite is the M7; only Sloan doesn't have the combined.
P.P.P.S. I am competitive for them but again, I am not interested.
P.P.P.P.S. Doesn't seem like you know much about business school names. I know more about the current existence of MD/MBA programs.

"It's over Johnny, it's over..."

 

[avgn]

"It's over Johnny, it's over..."

lol "oh darn shoulda read more closely instead of repeating the same thing to someone who was agreeing let's quote a Rambo movie instead"

That being said, it's awful kind of you to insist that I understood. This thread should prove useful to many many people. Literally the same thing on both sides was repeated like 3-4 times in a day. Can't get any more clearer than that. But now we finally have a good answer for why @Law2Doc quit law...he was tired of reading so much bull**** 😏

 

[Goro]

Just let it go.

lol "oh darn shoulda read more closely instead of repeating the same thing to someone who was agreeing let's quote a Rambo movie instead"

That being said, it's awful kind of you to insist that I understood. This thread should prove useful to many many people. Literally the same thing on both sides was repeated like 3-4 times in a day. Can't get any more clearer than that. But now we finally have a good answer for why @Law2Doc quit law...he was tired of reading so much bull**** 😏

 

[ConsultantMD]

This is a fantastic thread. I would agree that I think it would be a waste for medical students without any substantial business experience to go into an MD/MBA program. However, there are some people out there that have had a career before medicine and could see an MBA as a way to strengthen those skills.

Sure, it is a year of time away that you would have been earning a resident/attending salary, but what if you will earn more because of the opportunities afforded by the MBA? What if your school offers a scholarship to pursue this additional degree? There are a lot of assumptions that I read over, and because there is a need for physicians to be in positions of leadership and management, programs like this make sense.

 

[Law2Doc]

This is a fantastic thread. I would agree that I think it would be a waste for medical students without any substantial business experience to go into an MD/MBA program. However, there are some people out there that have had a career before medicine and could see an MBA as a way to strengthen those skills.

Sure, it is a year of time away that you would have been earning a resident/attending salary, but what if you will earn more because of the opportunities afforded by the MBA? What if your school offers a scholarship to pursue this additional degree? There are a lot of assumptions that I read over, and because there is a need for physicians to be in positions of leadership and management, programs like this make sense.

1. Most of the people doing the MD/MBA don't have substantial business work experience backgrounds beforehand and that was not OPs premise.
2. I don't know why you think those with the dual degree will earn more in salary. No one has really suggested that on this thread.
3. As mentioned a huge benefit of the MBA is networking and that gets stale fast, so you are better off getting the MBA after your training, not before.
4. Because of the existence of executive MBAs which let people get this degree closer to when they need it, on the side, without foregoing a year of income, the dual degree actually does not "make sense".

 

[IlDestriero]

1. Most of the people doing the MD/MBA don't have substantial business work experience backgrounds beforehand and that was not OPs premise.
2. I don't know why you think those with the dual degree will earn more in salary. No one has really suggested that on this thread.
3. As mentioned a huge benefit of the MBA is networking and that gets stale fast, so you are better off getting the MBA after your training, not before.
4. Because of the existence of executive MBAs which let people get this degree closer to when they need it, on the side, without foregoing a year of income, the dual degree actually does not "make sense".

As usual, you get it.
The OP will get minimal value out of a combined MBA if they plan to complete a residency and practice medicine. You're not going to get significant leadership positions early in your career outside of the military. By the time you may benefit from the MBA, about a decade into your career, the skills, contacts, knowledge, etc. will be mostly gone and if you did some healthcare focused MBA the whole landscape may have changed. The current system is in a fragile state and will make some dramatic changes over the next 5, 10 and 20 years. You can take that to the bank. You'll still be an Excel spreadsheet and PowerPoint wizard though.
I think about an executive MBA all the time, I can use my GI Bill to pay for many great programs so it would be no to low cost. (Excepting Wharton, which is ridiculously expensive.)
HOWEVER, what am I going to do with those skills and do I really need them? Even if it is free, it's a huge time commitment for a couple years that could be spent doing other things, like spending time with my kids, or sipping fine single malt. 😉 If I want to be a division/department head I probably don't need the MBA and I'd almost certainly have to leave my current sweet gig and move elsewhere. It is also a bridge to dump clinical medicine, and one of my colleagues is looking to do that with their MBA, but I don't think I want to push paper 24/7 for the rest of my career.
Early MBAs seem like money grabs to me, taking advantage of the uninformed.


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Il Destriero

 

[ConsultantMD]

1. Most of the people doing the MD/MBA don't have substantial business work experience backgrounds beforehand and that was not OPs premise.
2. I don't know why you think those with the dual degree will earn more in salary. No one has really suggested that on this thread.
3. As mentioned a huge benefit of the MBA is networking and that gets stale fast, so you are better off getting the MBA after your training, not before.
4. Because of the existence of executive MBAs which let people get this degree closer to when they need it, on the side, without foregoing a year of income, the dual degree actually does not "make sense".

I will concede that most candidates probably do not have substantial business experience.

A quick Google search yielded some data:

"One way to calculate the return on investment of the degree is to look at income. The average starting salary for the MD/MBA survey respondents was $292,500, compared to $192,196 for a medical specialist without an MBA during the same time period." (n=55 MD/MBA's) http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20100426/MODERNPHYSICIAN/304269976

Not very scientific data (yes, small sample size), and of course this could be influenced by a lot of factors, but 100k is not nothing for a starting salary... so what about that lost attending salary then?

Definitely agree that healthcare will be transformed in the near future, but doesn't that make it even more necessary to have physicians entering the system who are more business savvy than in the past?

 

[IlDestriero]

I don't think you get it. And that's OK. Go get the MBA.
Here's what it's worth starting at an existing private practice group... Zero. Do you think your MBA is going to allow you to understand the management of the group better than the senior partners who have been negotiating with the hospital, insurers, etc for years? No.
Here's what it's worth at my academic job... Zero.
BTW, that starting salary info is worthless without correcting for specialty. Both would be considered bad in my specialty, and that year of lost income is no joke either.

Our business manager has an MBA. It's useful to them. Maybe you can be our business manager? Don't expect to make clinician income though.

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Il Destriero

 

[Law2Doc]

I will concede that most candidates probably do not have substantial business experience.

A quick Google search yielded some data:

"One way to calculate the return on investment of the degree is to look at income. The average starting salary for the MD/MBA survey respondents was $292,500, compared to $192,196 for a medical specialist without an MBA during the same time period." (n=55 MD/MBA's) http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20100426/MODERNPHYSICIAN/304269976

Not very scientific data (yes, small sample size), and of course this could be influenced by a lot of factors, but 100k is not nothing for a starting salary... so what about that lost attending salary then?

Definitely agree that healthcare will be transformed in the near future, but doesn't that make it even more necessary to have physicians entering the system who are more business savvy than in the past?

I don't see where they define "medical specialist" and it would depend on whether they are matching MD/MBAs to people who spent that extra year instead in their training - i.e. a longer residency or fellowship. Medscape lists the average starting salary for MDs at just over $200,000 and that number includes all the lowest paying specialties, most of which a business focused Doctor wouldn't necessarily choose.

Are you saying your choice is MD/MBA or primary care, then sure the salary gap is there. But if it's MBA versus a competitive path, the numbers probably are the same. Or worse actually because they seem to cherry pick a few huge salaried individuals to highlight in the article, while the "average" is considerably lower. I think your numbers aren't an apples to apples comparison. Why can't I equally persuasively just compare your $292,500 to one of the surgical subspecialties starting at $350k and assert that you'll actually earn less with the dual degree?

And yes, looking at 55 people in a profession where over 20,000 enter residency each year is embarrassingly small.

 

[bc65]

. The average starting salary for the MD/MBA survey respondents was $292,500, compared to $192,196 for a medical specialist without an MBA during the same time period.

From reading the entire article, it seems that those numbers were not comparing fresh med school graduate salaries with MD degrees with the salaries of fresh MD/MBA med school graduates. Rather, these were a select group, not scientifically gathered, of MBAs acquired by MDs who were already out in practice. In other words, these MBAs sound like precisely the ones we were endorsing. These are MDs who got their MBAs after years in practice and after assuming leadership roles. The article makes that clear.

Further, if I were a physician earning 192k a year, I would look for another gig too, but not if I'm a specialist earning 500k. I'm not likely to top that salary with an MBA. Expecting to earn 600 k or more a year with an MBA is like expecting to go from high school varsity basketball to the NBA. It's necessary, but not sufficient.

I would also add, that the "networking" benefits that we alluded to will accrue primarily among business executives at the best schools. E.g., at Harvard business school, one executive from Apple meets another from IBM, and later they contact each other to make a deal or collaborate. However, if you're a med student in Buffalo taking an MBA class with a bunch of other MD students, you haven't met anyone you don't already know. And if you do meet some MBA students in Buffalo, they are not going to have the kind of job later or be the kind of contact who will help your career. Plus, 10 years later, by the time you finish your residency and get into practice, they won't remember you.

 

[ConsultantMD]

.

 

[doc05]

just because this was not something widely available during your time, it doesn't mean that it's unworthy....

I think you meant "not worthwhile." And it's not. Having just read the study, I conclude that the data is pure garbage. The paper is flawed for many reasons. Also, keep in mind the average age of participants was 46, by which time, most docs should be earning considerably more.

 

[ConsultantMD]

I was also curious about the actual 'study' and where it came from, which is why I found it and shared. I did not say that it was a valid study! I wish I had never commented in the first place. Tough crowd. Poor OP was looking for advice and gets a lot of heat about his situation and also bashing the school he's at.

 

[Law2Doc]

@ConsultantMD - these dual degrees were actually already "widely available during our time". It's not that new and schools were always looking for new ways to generate income. They just were bad ideas even then. But these became even worse ideas with the increased availability of executive MBAs which made much more sense for doctors, for the reasons described in this thread.

 

[ConsultantMD]

We have different definitions of "widely available" @Law2Doc per an Atlantic article:

The number of joint M.D./M.B.A. programs in America has grown from six to 65 in 20 years. (From 2011 and 2012 alone, the number increased by 25 percent.)

 

[Law2Doc]

We have different definitions of "widely available" @Law2Doc per an Atlantic article:

The number of joint M.D./M.B.A. programs in America has grown from six to 65 in 20 years. (From 2011 and 2012 alone, the number increased by 25 percent.)

Not many of us on this thread started med school 20 years ago...
Dual degrees were already an option when most of us went to med school.

 

[doc05]

The number of joint M.D./M.B.A. programs in America has grown from six to 65 in 20 years. (From 2011 and 2012 alone, the number increased by 25 percent.)

Exactly. Nothing more than a income-generating scam. 65 programs ... there can't possibly be more than 20 good MBA programs, let alone 65.

 

[triptans128]

It's very interesting reading this thread and the different perspectives here. I'm an M3 who has been seriously considering the 5-year MD/MBA program at my institution (top 5 business school based on USNEWS). While there are many points in this thread that are completely valid and understandable, it's just so hard for me to believe that an MBA degree would be completely useless. I just feel like whether that extra year helps with career development or rather a personal development, there has to be valuable lessons and benefits that one can take away from learning a different perspective that many medical students lack. I don't know...... Just based on the track record of the MD/MBA students coming out of my program the last 2-3 years, I have to say I am very impressed with the programs they end up matching into (UCSF, MGH, Stanford, Penn, and etc.). A few of them even launched their own start-up companies during their MBA year. So, it's a little hard for me to believe that an MD/MBA degree is detrimental and frowned upon (based on some of the comments made in this thread) given the kinda places that the MD/MBA students are matching into from my institution. But what do I know?

 

[IlDestriero]

Those overachiever students would have matched at highly regarded residency programs without their MBA. #GunnersGottaGun


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Il Destriero

 

[Psai]

It's very interesting reading this thread and the different perspectives here. I'm an M3 who has been seriously considering the 5-year MD/MBA program at my institution (top 5 business school based on USNEWS). While there are many points in this thread that are completely valid and understandable, it's just so hard for me to believe that an MBA degree would be completely useless. I just feel like whether that extra year helps with career development or rather a personal development, there has to be valuable lessons and benefits that one can take away from learning a different perspective that many medical students lack. I don't know...... Just based on the track record of the MD/MBA students coming out of my program the last 2-3 years, I have to say I am very impressed with the programs they end up matching into (UCSF, MGH, Stanford, Penn, and etc.). A few of them even launched their own start-up companies during their MBA year. So, it's a little hard for me to believe that an MD/MBA degree is detrimental and frowned upon (based on some of the comments made in this thread) given the kinda places that the MD/MBA students are matching into from my institution. But what do I know?

It's very easy to interview at programs at that level without an mba. I don't think I've seen a single person on their residents list with an mba actually

 

[bc65]

it's a little hard for me to believe that an MD/MBA degree is detrimental and frowned upon (based on some of the comments made in this thread) given the kinda places that the MD/MBA students are matching into from my institution.

Sure, students at a top 5 med school managed to get into top residencies. They also got an MBA along the way, and still got into top programs. There's no reason to think that the MBA helped them, right? You would expect Top 5 students to get into top residencies. Did it hurt them? No, probably not if they got into top residencies. But it shows an outside interest not related to your specialty. If you want to know how a residency program will see the MBA, replace a year spent getting the MBA with a year off med school getting a degree in art history. Now, do you see that art degree as being neutral, a plus, or a minus?

A few of them even launched their own start-up companies during their MBA year.

That only proves my point. Students who got their MBA were more likely to want to start a business unrelated to their residency goals. Justified or not, I would assume that a resident with an MBA is more likely than most to quit and start a business, and therefore not finish their residency and not take their board exam. Residencies are evaluated based on the percentage of residents finishing and passing their board exams.

Now let's look at it from the student's point of view. Did the MBA help them start a business? Not likely, as the business was started while they were still taking MBA courses. Did they need the MBA to start a business? Well, neither Bill Gates nor Mark Zuckerberg needed one.

 

[Law2Doc]

It's very interesting reading this thread and the different perspectives here. I'm an M3 who has been seriously considering the 5-year MD/MBA program at my institution (top 5 business school based on USNEWS). While there are many points in this thread that are completely valid and understandable, it's just so hard for me to believe that an MBA degree would be completely useless. I just feel like whether that extra year helps with career development or rather a personal development, there has to be valuable lessons and benefits that one can take away from learning a different perspective that many medical students lack. I don't know...... Just based on the track record of the MD/MBA students coming out of my program the last 2-3 years, I have to say I am very impressed with the programs they end up matching into (UCSF, MGH, Stanford, Penn, and etc.). A few of them even launched their own start-up companies during their MBA year. So, it's a little hard for me to believe that an MD/MBA degree is detrimental and frowned upon (based on some of the comments made in this thread) given the kinda places that the MD/MBA students are matching into from my institution. But what do I know?

I think you continue to assume the MBA has independent value as a pedigree rather than looking at the point of the training and the value the skillset actually offers. PDs and others aren't as naive.

MBA has a huge benefit in refining existing business skills and it's supposedly an awesome place to network in your business industry. I have many buddies who were former analysts, consultants and brokers who got sent to get an MBA by their firms, on the firms dime, enhanced their skills, and returned to their jobs with a nice promotion to management shortly thereafter. I also know many who subsequently did deals with some of the similarly promoted colleagues they got their degrees with. For that kind of career progression the MBA makes perfect sense. And it's why the better programs have historically required 2 years of relevant business experience of applicants.

However getting the degree and then going to a lengthy residency thereafter offers no similar benefit. You won't get the equivalent of a promotion. Any contacts you make will be old and cold by the time you finish your training. And you really had no business skillset to build on in the first place. So the whole value would have to be solely in having the letters after your name. Which i suppose sounds more impressive to a premed than it should.

The programs let future docs in for these dual degrees because they make easy $ and it doesn't hurt their placement statistics -- because they'll count the residency as full time employment in their numbers. But does it really provide a service? Would the guy who got into Z residency really have not gotten there without the extra degree? And wouldn't he have gotten far more value and career benefit if he finished residency at Z and then did an executive MBA someplace even better and on the weekends, when he actually needed it and had some skills to build on?

 

[tyrion33]

My personal observations have been that HBS happily takes students from top medical schools, schools the H considers to be its peers. I do not have anecdotes or evidence proving the contrary, that other med students cannot get into HBS. I doubt this is true but it probably is a lot harder. The MD/MBA students at my private UG but not top tier b-school were rarely from tippy top private med schools; most were from solid USNWR 20+ privates (sorry sorry but it's the best comparison I can give). I do not know that much about other b-schools specifically. But my knowledge of the general situation tells me that b-schools retain their prestige-focused lens when they admit med students. It does them no good to say they have a student from SUNY, but it's worthy for them to say they got someone from Yale. So I would expect a UB med student to not encounter much success at the top in the MBA process, not bc UB is bad, but bc top b-schools are self-emasculating prestige ******. But there are still many very very good b-schools OP could get into that are better than UB tbh

@avgn This makes a lot of sense. What specific b-school are you referring to? FYI I'll be attending top 25 med school in midwest that has an MBA program (not in top 50), looking to do MBA at diff institution. Attended HYP undergrad, did boutique IBD internship and started small 6-fig startup. Based on your exp, what b-schools do you think would give best chances?

 

[avgn]

@avgn This makes a lot of sense. What specific b-school are you referring to? FYI I'll be attending top 25 med school in midwest that has an MBA program (not in top 50), looking to do MBA at diff institution. Attended HYP undergrad, did boutique IBD internship and started small 6-fig startup. Based on your exp, what b-schools do you think would give best chances?

I was talking about HBS just like I mentioned. Honestly I'd wager some of the M7 would be happy to have you assuming your GMAT is up to snuff. Your past experience is basically already M7 feeder level. I've heard of HBS/SGSB waiving the GMAT for their own med students but I doubt this is common practice for outsiders. Beyond that, just go down the USNews list and stop at 15 because the ones beyond those aren't worth it. Not sure how your med school will factor. It definitely helps because it shows 1) you're smart 2) you're willing to pay, but I just don't know how big of a boost it is compared to, say, coming from Stanford or Penn. As the rest of the thread emphasizes though, if you're going to do this regardless of all the negative reasons not to, bargain for as much money as you can. It don't come easy but you sound like you fit the profile of the kind of people they like.

MBA admissions are not hard. Show you have some interest/experience with the kind of stuff they want and that you can pay. But make damn sure it's what you want and know the downside risks.

 

[the29thlight]

Be critical of yourself beyond your time. Are you honestly the type of person who has the fearlessness (sometimes recklessness) to start a new company? To commercialize research? To wait for decades before your net worth recovers from the risks you've taken with it? I get that an MD has a similar payoff horizon, but the way you get back to zero is a lot less uncertain. Medicine attracts the conscientious and encourages structure. If that's you, why deviate from the plan?

Is the knowledge you get from b school worth it? No. Of course not. You could read and understand and apply any part of the curriculum you needed in no time. GAAP, NPV, WACC, capital markets, channel marketing, securities, leverage... you name it, it's learnable. Don't be one of the people who go to b school to learn the material. It's trivial.

Are the results worth it? Certainly. I didn't grow up around many families with dynastic wealth, so YMMV. But going to a top 15 MBA program meant that I had regular lunches, cocktail parties, tailgates, and lectures with folks with $50M+ net worth. That mattered when I started a capital-intensive business. Even if it's just their names on a business plan, or their willingness to back a loan agreement, the terms and tenor of bank or investor deals change noticeably. But does it matter if you don't need those kinds of things?

Peer connections help immeasurably, too. Core groups of students at b school can get incredibly close, and I have lifelong friends (all highly motivated and bright) in almost every major industry. Get a Bain or Deloitte opinion in 3 days for no cost, or a BOA/Honeywell/J&J board member on the phone in 24 hours. If you need the capital for starting down the horrendous drug test pipeline or if you're a hospital system CEO who wants to acquire another hospital, you'll be glad to have your Alta Partners or Goldman rockstar number handy. But would you care if you never met them or needed their help?

It's also a bullet point next to your other experiences, whether on a loan application for financing the working capital needs of your clinic or a board bio for a publicly-traded company or if you're gunning for city council. Those things matter in a way you wouldn't expect from just knowing the course material. It's a belief and a trust like the kind you get with your MD, but for a very different purpose, and with a very different reputation. The combination of both will be interesting to a lot of people. But are they critical to where you want to be?

Is the attitude you develop worth it? That's on you. You think about money a lot differently after b school (one person's opinion). How little it matters. How easy it is to find if you have a compelling idea and a solid team. But it also squeezes a little bit of humanism out. You see just how exploitable humans are. And you can more clearly see the systems that do it. Are you prepared for that?

Many people get MBAs because they don't know how to advance their own careers, or they want to change industries or levels of responsibility. Most of them end up as dead-end, middle managers at GE, IBM, whatever. Filler. Fewer are the ones who will use a new degree to get their foot in the door of a stretch job, dominate once they're there, and rise prominently to the top levels of their field. Every field has those types. Are you one?

If you're asking for us to tell you which one you are, you're the filler. Play it safe. Finish MD, do your duty, retire with a decent 401k and go golfing. You'll be a local hero to a lot of suffering people who needed your help. Join the rotary club and pay your dues. It's a fine life.

If you're asking us to see what your best option is so you can kick down some doors and dominate, it's worthwhile investment. If you go, go to the best school you can get into. One with a robust alumni program (HBS, Dartmouth, Yale, Notre Dame, Stanford, Columbia, etc). Then, go make a mark on the world*, donate enough money to build a hospital with your spouse's name on the plastic surgery wing, and pay it forward to the business school alumni network so the next starry-eyed kid can have their shot. It's a fine life, too.

*obviously, getting an MBA doesn't mean you'll be this and not the other. Like I said, plenty of dead-end MBA jobs with MBAs to fill them. They make a good salary, and that's all their ambition or talent or creativity will ever get them. Your MD is already good enough (or better) for that. There is no need to get another degree that gets you the effectively same results.


tl;dr: If you're going to be a clinician or run your own clinic and then go golfing three afternoons a week, it's not so necessary. If you have the stamina and mindset for a completely different type of life, then it's a good tool to have. Nothing guarantees phenomenal success, but don't waste time and money doubling down on the obviously tried and true path if that's only what you ever wanted in the first place.

 

[tyrion33]

I was talking about HBS just like I mentioned. Honestly I'd wager some of the M7 would be happy to have you assuming your GMAT is up to snuff. Your past experience is basically already M7 feeder level. I've heard of HBS/SGSB waiving the GMAT for their own med students but I doubt this is common practice for outsiders. Beyond that, just go down the USNews list and stop at 15 because the ones beyond those aren't worth it. Not sure how your med school will factor. It definitely helps because it shows 1) you're smart 2) you're willing to pay, but I just don't know how big of a boost it is compared to, say, coming from Stanford or Penn. As the rest of the thread emphasizes though, if you're going to do this regardless of all the negative reasons not to, bargain for as much money as you can. It don't come easy but you sound like you fit the profile of the kind of people they like.

MBA admissions are not hard. Show you have some interest/experience with the kind of stuff they want and that you can pay. But make damn sure it's what you want and know the downside risks.

I agree with the problem of med school prestige, esp. since my med school (Case western) has a b-school ranked in the 70s don't know if it has the recognition among b-school adcoms other similar schools like Baylor/Sinai have. Frankly think no matter what HBS/SGSB/Wharton are out of reach bc there seem to be growing cohorts of dual MD/MBAs from home institution they'd take in first. Given recent growth of dual MD/MBA, do you have any idea if its possible anymore for med students to get in from an away institution? If so, why would b-schools take them over their own dual MD/MBAs? (they must be looking for something). Considering streamlining my story to make sure it's a singular story when I apply. IBD, start-up, Army ROTC (non-commissioned, may go guard after Step 1) will probs appear disjointed to adcoms, who seem to favor trad backgrounds.

Be critical of yourself beyond your time. Are you honestly the type of person who has the fearlessness (sometimes recklessness) to start a new company? To commercialize research? To wait for decades before your net worth recovers from the risks you've taken with it? I get that an MD has a similar payoff horizon, but the way you get back to zero is a lot less uncertain. Medicine attracts the conscientious and encourages structure. If that's you, why deviate from the plan?

Is the knowledge you get from b school worth it? No. Of course not. You could read and understand and apply any part of the curriculum you needed in no time. GAAP, NPV, WACC, capital markets, channel marketing, securities, leverage... you name it, it's learnable. Don't be one of the people who go to b school to learn the material. It's trivial.

Are the results worth it? Certainly. I didn't grow up around many families with dynastic wealth, so YMMV. But going to a top 15 MBA program meant that I had regular lunches, cocktail parties, tailgates, and lectures with folks with $50M+ net worth. That mattered when I started a capital-intensive business. Even if it's just their names on a business plan, or their willingness to back a loan agreement, the terms and tenor of bank or investor deals change noticeably. But does it matter if you don't need those kinds of things?

Peer connections help immeasurably, too. Core groups of students at b school can get incredibly close, and I have lifelong friends (all highly motivated and bright) in almost every major industry. Get a Bain or Deloitte opinion in 3 days for no cost, or a BOA/Honeywell/J&J board member on the phone in 24 hours. If you need the capital for starting down the horrendous drug test pipeline or if you're a hospital system CEO who wants to acquire another hospital, you'll be glad to have your Alta Partners or Goldman rockstar number handy. But would you care if you never met them or needed their help?

It's also a bullet point next to your other experiences, whether on a loan application for financing the working capital needs of your clinic or a board bio for a publicly-traded company or if you're gunning for city council. Those things matter in a way you wouldn't expect from just knowing the course material. It's a belief and a trust like the kind you get with your MD, but for a very different purpose, and with a very different reputation. The combination of both will be interesting to a lot of people. But are they critical to where you want to be?

Is the attitude you develop worth it? That's on you. You think about money a lot differently after b school (one person's opinion). How little it matters. How easy it is to find if you have a compelling idea and a solid team. But it also squeezes a little bit of humanism out. You see just how exploitable humans are. And you can more clearly see the systems that do it. Are you prepared for that?

Many people get MBAs because they don't know how to advance their own careers, or they want to change industries or levels of responsibility. Most of them end up as dead-end, middle managers at GE, IBM, whatever. Filler. Fewer are the ones who will use a new degree to get their foot in the door of a stretch job, dominate once they're there, and rise prominently to the top levels of their field. Every field has those types. Are you one?

If you're asking for us to tell you which one you are, you're the filler. Play it safe. Finish MD, do your duty, retire with a decent 401k and go golfing. You'll be a local hero to a lot of suffering people who needed your help. Join the rotary club and pay your dues. It's a fine life.

If you're asking us to see what your best option is so you can kick down some doors and dominate, it's worthwhile investment. If you go, go to the best school you can get into. One with a robust alumni program (HBS, Dartmouth, Yale, Notre Dame, Stanford, Columbia, etc). Then, go make a mark on the world*, donate enough money to build a hospital with your spouse's name on the plastic surgery wing, and pay it forward to the business school alumni network so the next starry-eyed kid can have their shot. It's a fine life, too.

*obviously, getting an MBA doesn't mean you'll be this and not the other. Like I said, plenty of dead-end MBA jobs with MBAs to fill them. They make a good salary, and that's all their ambition or talent or creativity will ever get them. Your MD is already good enough (or better) for that. There is no need to get another degree that gets you the effectively same results.


tl;dr: If you're going to be a clinician or run your own clinic and then go golfing three afternoons a week, it's not so necessary. If you have the stamina and mindset for a completely different type of life, then it's a good tool to have. Nothing guarantees phenomenal success, but don't waste time and money doubling down on the obviously tried and true path if that's only what you ever wanted in the first place.

Words of wisdom. Seems most b-school grads w/o anything else (connections, technical background, sheer luck) end up at some mid-level dead-end job. Doctors fare better, but for amt of work/time they put in doesn't seem like they are compensated proportionally. From what I can see lot of MD/MBAs also think too small - degree -> VC/PE/HF/IBD and/or start-up -> great $ prestige and power. This, or they end up not using their MBA at all. Bottom line, I think MDs can and should think bigger. Don't think MD/MBA is a guarantee of anything, I do believe it can position me the best long-term.

 

[Trogghunter]

Not sure if it was alreay said....but there are residency programs that offer an MBA while you train. I know that there is one through University of Delaware and Christianna. It's an additional year and I think that you still get paid by the residency. There are probably more.

 

[avgn]

I agree with the problem of med school prestige, esp. since my med school (Case western) has a b-school ranked in the 70s don't know if it has the recognition among b-school adcoms other similar schools like Baylor/Sinai have. Frankly think no matter what HBS/SGSB/Wharton are out of reach bc there seem to be growing cohorts of dual MD/MBAs from home institution they'd take in first. Given recent growth of dual MD/MBA, do you have any idea if its possible anymore for med students to get in from an away institution? If so, why would b-schools take them over their own dual MD/MBAs? (they must be looking for something). Considering streamlining my story to make sure it's a singular story when I apply. IBD, start-up, Army ROTC (non-commissioned, may go guard after Step 1) will probs appear disjointed to adcoms, who seem to favor trad backgrounds.


Words of wisdom. Seems most b-school grads w/o anything else (connections, technical background, sheer luck) end up at some mid-level dead-end job. Doctors fare better, but for amt of work/time they put in doesn't seem like they are compensated proportionally. From what I can see lot of MD/MBAs also think too small - degree -> VC/PE/HF/IBD and/or start-up -> great $ prestige and power. This, or they end up not using their MBA at all. Bottom line, I think MDs can and should think bigger. Don't think MD/MBA is a guarantee of anything, I do believe it can position me the best long-term.

Yes of course aways are possible. My undergrad was at a non-M7 top b-school and we had dual degree people from Rutgers, Brown, USC med just to name a few. I take back what I said about your chances. I thought you worked in IB full time...just an internship's not gonna cut it. But again, score well on the GMAT and it's always a possibility some top school will bite bc you're a cash cow. There was nothing spectacular about the away dual degree people I knew in college. Again, MBA admissions are not tough, get out of the med mindset that it's all so difficult.

Why are you throwing these unrealistic acronyms around? Tell me the last physician you know who went into HF...or even IB to a lesser extent. You think those HF quants are gonna have any interest in some random MD? What would they contribute to that world? Nothing. VC definitely a thing, it's not even hard to get into these days, PE maybe, gotta get real lucky, boutique consulting much more likely as a practical result. I don't think you know what you're talking about with regards to MD/MBA-related things. Time to find an advisor dude

 

[tyrion33]

OK, appreciate the examples. Cash cow is apt description, and I agree IB internship is not enough. All programs seem to value work exp. Don't think you're too sure about MD/MBA yourself though - 27% alone go into i-banking/finance, def not "a lesser extent." Dropped the ball there. Personally know multiple examples from top MD/MBA schools. Either way, I said dual degree docs dream of that, probs bc most have 0 exp and industry has mystique to layperson, not that I do.

"Among the careers that were tracked (n = 195), there was significant heterogeneity in current primary employment. The most common sectors were clinical (27.7%), investment banking/finance (27.0%), hospital/provider administration (11.7%), biotech/device/pharmaceutical (10.9%), and entrepreneurship (9.5%). - See more at: http://www.ajmc.com/journals/issue/...hoices-of-physician-mbas#sthash.K7TUob2x.dpuf"

 

[coffee-doc]

Look into focusing on CIN's ( clinically integrated network) with an MBA since it's relatively new and booming. an MD/MBA could easily catapult you in that area.

 

[avgn]

OK, appreciate the examples. Cash cow is apt description, and I agree IB internship is not enough. All programs seem to value work exp. Don't think you're too sure about MD/MBA yourself though - 27% alone go into i-banking/finance, def not "a lesser extent." Dropped the ball there. Personally know multiple examples from top MD/MBA schools. Either way, I said dual degree docs dream of that, probs bc most have 0 exp and industry has mystique to layperson, not that I do.

"Among the careers that were tracked (n = 195), there was significant heterogeneity in current primary employment. The most common sectors were clinical (27.7%), investment banking/finance (27.0%), hospital/provider administration (11.7%), biotech/device/pharmaceutical (10.9%), and entrepreneurship (9.5%). - See more at: http://www.ajmc.com/journals/issue/...hoices-of-physician-mbas#sthash.K7TUob2x.dpuf"

That's 200 physicians from one HBS, hardly representative. You should be citing results from such an elite echelon to argue your points. I'm not looking to quibble, just wanted to point out that most MD/MBAs would be useless in some of the fields you mentioned and thus they are not good examples to use. I also bet you that the 27% in IB/finance you cited are doing stuff in health care finance and delivery, not crunching numbers in traditional IBDs analyzing bond and equity markets. Again, physicians would be useless there because the MBA certainly doesn't give them the quant skills to do those jobs

 

[tyrion33]

I'd consider HBS to be gold standard if you want to analyze career aspirations/outcomes, since its pedigree/networks doesn't limit one's career choices (vs. lower tier mbas). Yes, many have to start in equity research or even as a reg i-banking associate, but almost everyone in sell-side dream of jumping to buy-side (more $, slightly better hrs). Keep in mind there's diff styles of investing too - docs have no formal training in quant/technical analysis, but they certainly have a competitive advantage in analyzing fundamentals like drug pipeline (which is why if you're good enough some funds will bite). Thanks for previous advice regardless.

 

[avgn]

I'd consider HBS to be gold standard if you want to analyze career aspirations/outcomes, since its pedigree/networks doesn't limit one's career choices (vs. lower tier mbas). Yes, many have to start in equity research or even as a reg i-banking associate, but almost everyone in sell-side dream of jumping to buy-side (more $, slightly better hrs). Keep in mind there's diff styles of investing too - docs have no formal training in quant/technical analysis, but they certainly have a competitive advantage in analyzing fundamentals like drug pipeline (which is why if you're good enough some funds will bite). Thanks for previous advice regardless.

But if those are your real aspirations or career goals, why are you going to medical school............ And I still highly doubt the likelihood of some untrained physician making his/her way into buy side. You understand what a cutthroat manslaughter it is to get into PE right?

If you're talking about outcomes for loser physicians who end up completing putting their MD to waste, I agree. HBS would be the gold standard for producing useless physicians. If you're talking about outcomes for MD/MBAs who actually want to utilize both of their degrees, I maintain that PE/IB are not reasonable fields to break into. There are plenty plenty more qualified people for those kind of firms to take and make slaves out of. Plenty. Docs wouldn't even make it halfway onto that line.

 

[Law2Doc]

Be critical of yourself beyond your time. Are you honestly the type of person who has the fearlessness (sometimes recklessness) to start a new company? To commercialize research? To wait for decades before your net worth recovers from the risks you've taken with it? I get that an MD has a similar payoff horizon, but the way you get back to zero is a lot less uncertain. Medicine attracts the conscientious and encourages structure. If that's you, why deviate from the plan?

Is the knowledge you get from b school worth it? No. Of course not. You could read and understand and apply any part of the curriculum you needed in no time. GAAP, NPV, WACC, capital markets, channel marketing, securities, leverage... you name it, it's learnable. Don't be one of the people who go to b school to learn the material. It's trivial.

Are the results worth it? Certainly. I didn't grow up around many families with dynastic wealth, so YMMV. But going to a top 15 MBA program meant that I had regular lunches, cocktail parties, tailgates, and lectures with folks with $50M+ net worth. That mattered when I started a capital-intensive business. Even if it's just their names on a business plan, or their willingness to back a loan agreement, the terms and tenor of bank or investor deals change noticeably. But does it matter if you don't need those kinds of things?

Peer connections help immeasurably, too. Core groups of students at b school can get incredibly close, and I have lifelong friends (all highly motivated and bright) in almost every major industry. Get a Bain or Deloitte opinion in 3 days for no cost, or a BOA/Honeywell/J&J board member on the phone in 24 hours. If you need the capital for starting down the horrendous drug test pipeline or if you're a hospital system CEO who wants to acquire another hospital, you'll be glad to have your Alta Partners or Goldman rockstar number handy. But would you care if you never met them or needed their help?

It's also a bullet point next to your other experiences, whether on a loan application for financing the working capital needs of your clinic or a board bio for a publicly-traded company or if you're gunning for city council. Those things matter in a way you wouldn't expect from just knowing the course material. It's a belief and a trust like the kind you get with your MD, but for a very different purpose, and with a very different reputation. The combination of both will be interesting to a lot of people. But are they critical to where you want to be?

Is the attitude you develop worth it? That's on you. You think about money a lot differently after b school (one person's opinion). How little it matters. How easy it is to find if you have a compelling idea and a solid team. But it also squeezes a little bit of humanism out. You see just how exploitable humans are. And you can more clearly see the systems that do it. Are you prepared for that?

Many people get MBAs because they don't know how to advance their own careers, or they want to change industries or levels of responsibility. Most of them end up as dead-end, middle managers at GE, IBM, whatever. Filler. Fewer are the ones who will use a new degree to get their foot in the door of a stretch job, dominate once they're there, and rise prominently to the top levels of their field. Every field has those types. Are you one?

If you're asking for us to tell you which one you are, you're the filler. Play it safe. Finish MD, do your duty, retire with a decent 401k and go golfing. You'll be a local hero to a lot of suffering people who needed your help. Join the rotary club and pay your dues. It's a fine life.

If you're asking us to see what your best option is so you can kick down some doors and dominate, it's worthwhile investment. If you go, go to the best school you can get into. One with a robust alumni program (HBS, Dartmouth, Yale, Notre Dame, Stanford, Columbia, etc). Then, go make a mark on the world*, donate enough money to build a hospital with your spouse's name on the plastic surgery wing, and pay it forward to the business school alumni network so the next starry-eyed kid can have their shot. It's a fine life, too.

*obviously, getting an MBA doesn't mean you'll be this and not the other. Like I said, plenty of dead-end MBA jobs with MBAs to fill them. They make a good salary, and that's all their ambition or talent or creativity will ever get them. Your MD is already good enough (or better) for that. There is no need to get another degree that gets you the effectively same results.


tl;dr: If you're going to be a clinician or run your own clinic and then go golfing three afternoons a week, it's not so necessary. If you have the stamina and mindset for a completely different type of life, then it's a good tool to have. Nothing guarantees phenomenal success, but don't waste time and money doubling down on the obviously tried and true path if that's only what you ever wanted in the first place.

Most of this post validates the value of an MBA LATER, when you might need it, but is actually pretty good ammunition AGAINST the MBA as a dual degree. Why do all this now when the contacts, networking will all be old and cold by the time you finish residency?

 

[the29thlight]

Most of this post validates the value of an MBA LATER, when you might need it, but is actually pretty good ammunition AGAINST the MBA as a dual degree.

I hope my message was even more critical than that. Most of the time, the value just isn't there. It can catapult a studious B- player into a 120K job s/he doesn't deserve, but for MDs that's not really the bar you're trying to meet.

If you don't have the chops, another degree isn't going to magically make you into something you're not. And if you're a hot shot, missing an MBA won't keep you from being successful.

Why do all this now when the contacts, networking will all be old and cold by the time you finish residency?

The only thing we're not 100% on. While you know better than I do just how all-consuming MD & res are, if anyone can find time to post on a site like this, they can find the time to call good friends to keep these relationships alive. And I'm more apt to do deep favors for a 10-year friend than a 1-year friend. Not a disagreement, just a different perspective.

OP, at the end of the day, if the internet stranger known as 29thlight is your trusted advisor, it means you're probably headed to a lifetime of hard-won mediocrity.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

The only thing we're not 100% on. While you know better than I do just how all-consuming MD & res are, if anyone can find time to post on a site like this, they can find the time to call good friends to keep these relationships alive. And I'm more apt to do deep favors for a 10-year friend than a 1-year friend. Not a disagreement, just a different perspective...

Friendships are like gardens, if you don't have the time to tend to them, water them regularly, they die. Residency limits time to keep in touch with people in a very big way. You might be living in a distant city, working odd hours, having limited awake time. A LOT of old friendships fall by the wayside. A large percent of people you used to hang with become relegated to Facebook friendships. So no, this is the exact wrong time to be trying to nurture pre-residency relationships. All of these will be dead leads by the end of your 3+ year residency -- plants you didn't tend to.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

But if those are your real aspirations or career goals, why are you going to medical school............ And I still highly doubt the likelihood of some untrained physician making his/her way into buy side. You understand what a cutthroat manslaughter it is to get into PE right?

If you're talking about outcomes for loser physicians who end up completing putting their MD to waste, I agree. HBS would be the gold standard for producing useless physicians. If you're talking about outcomes for MD/MBAs who actually want to utilize both of their degrees, I maintain that PE/IB are not reasonable fields to break into. There are plenty plenty more qualified people for those kind of firms to take and make slaves out of. Plenty. Docs wouldn't even make it halfway onto that line.

You keep using that incendiary language and I don't know why. Not everyone comes from a hot shot family that grooms him throughout his childhood and adolescence to get accepted to HYPS for undergrad and have the chance to land a front office finance role as a 22 year old.

If you're not so lucky and find yourself in college wanting to have a decent, financially fruitful life but without the necessary pedigree to go straight to Wall Street, going for the MD is an excellent choice even if practicing clinical medicine is not your number one preference. It's much safer than getting a crappy consulting job with the Big 4 for a few years, getting an MBA and then finding out you max out as a middle manager barely cracking 6 figures. With the MD, you have a very high salary floor and your chances to hit it big in finance or VC are probably better than some schlub who spent 4 years in the business world in a mediocre role.

So as an investment, the MD is great even if you end up never using it. It gives you options and security without necessarily ending up as an iron ball around your ankle if you want to do something else. The people who got an MD and then made a fortune in finance are very rare, I'll give you that much, but they are not losers.

 

[avgn]

You keep using that incendiary language and I don't know why. Not everyone comes from a hot shot family that grooms him throughout his childhood and adolescence to get accepted to HYPS for undergrad and have the chance to land a front office finance role as a 22 year old.

If you're not so lucky and find yourself in college wanting to have a decent, financially fruitful life but without the necessary pedigree to go straight to Wall Street, going for the MD is an excellent choice even if practicing clinical medicine is not your number one preference. It's much safer than getting a crappy consulting job with the Big 4 for a few years, getting an MBA and then finding out you max out as a middle manager barely cracking 6 figures. With the MD, you have a very high salary floor and your chances to hit it big in finance or VC are probably better than some schlub who spent 4 years in the business world in a mediocre role.

So as an investment, the MD is great even if you end up never using it. It gives you options and security without necessarily ending up as an iron ball around your ankle if you want to do something else. The people who got an MD and then made a fortune in finance are very rare, I'll give you that much, but they are not losers.

I understand what you're saying. But no, it is not an "excellent choice." It is a gigantic waste of scarce resources of time and money, a major deadweight loss to society. If one doesn't plan on practicing medicine, I implore that they let someone else take their precious MD spot. I don't care how much money they make somewhere else. If someone wastes hundreds of thousands of dollars of their own money and society's investment in them only to use the MD as a jumping board to Wall Street, they are losers. I can agree with everything you just said and still make my judgment call that they're losers. This is an opinion, you don't have to agree with it.

 

[Law2Doc]

I understand what you're saying. But no, it is not an "excellent choice." It is a gigantic waste of scarce resources of time and money, a major deadweight loss to society. If one doesn't plan on practicing medicine, I implore that they let someone else take their precious MD spot. I don't care how much money they make somewhere else. If someone wastes hundreds of thousands of dollars of their own money and society's investment in them only to use the MD as a jumping board to Wall Street, they are losers. I can agree with everything you just said and still make my judgment call that they're losers. This is an opinion, you don't have to agree with it.

I don't know if I'd call them "losers", but it's actually an extremely low yield path to get to where they want to be and hinders limited resources to boot. It's "undergrad thinking" to think "get degree then you will get job". In the real world degrees are just wall decorations and your underlying experience and accomplishments and RECENT, ACTIVE networks (not a Facebook friend you shot hoops with 4 years ago) will be what opens doors.

In other words, a lot of you guys seem the think a few more letters after your name make a big difference in your career trajectory. Actually it's the experiences behind those letters that make or break people. Don't confuse the letters for the underlying groundwork. The guy with several years in business who goes and gets the MBA can get promoted. The guy with the MBA attained years earlier won't have that career trajectory. Similarly you won't see investment banks wowed by an MD but they might see great value in someone who had relevant business experience as a physician. So I think it's dangerous to look at a bunch of doctors who also have MBAs and say "look where they ended up" when its not really about the letters but the other things on the CV.

 

[careerchanger77]

It sounds like there's mixed opinions on whether or not the MD / MBA would be useful.

For what kind of person and career path does a MD / MBA joint program make sense?

I'd be curious to hear why others consider it, since this type of program seems to be popping up at some of the highly ranked med schools. I notice some of the medical school faculty and prominent institutional staff seem to have the MD / MBA, as well.

At the moment, I'm leaning against it but would be interested to hear why others who do plan to stay in medicine (and don't have future plans for Corporate America) want to pursue it. I had also briefly looked into it due to the natural fit with my business background in my 1st career - but I ultimately want to be a practicing clinical physician. While the MBA studies would be interesting from an intellectual / academic standpoint (and I believe only takes 1 year in some of the joint MD / MBA programs), I haven't figured out what I could actually do with it if I want to practice medicine and whether it would be worth doing for any benefit or just be a distraction away from time spent studying for boards, working on research and publications, etc. if I do get into med school. (I don't feel the need for more letters for the sake of having letters, that's for sure, nor do I actually want to go back into the corporate world .... I want to be a doctor and treat patients.)

Those of who have considered or are considering the dual MD / MBA degree - what are you planning on doing with the joint degree after graduation? Is there a specific field or career path for those who want to practice medicine that it would benefit?