Need advice on plan/prospects

[Mainer3400]

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Hi there -

Edited for brevity - let's just cut to the chase.

Stats:

29, worked a variety of professional jobs mostly in communications.

Undergrad cGPA: 3.3
BCPM: ~2.9

Background:

Took plenty of the basic sciences in undergrad before getting my act together, so while some are Bs/As, there's far too many C's.

Question becomes -

Am I best off re-taking those foundational courses, or moving on to higher levels? For instance, our state university has a CLS BS that I could complete in ~2 years or so. They would accept my mediocre grades as pre-reqs and I could move straight into the higher levels, then go into a year of practicum. So this would give me both a way to demonstrate improved undergrad scores in sciences, as well as a solid year of health care exposure in a more rigorous way than volunteering.

Or would schools rather just see it all re-done?

Thanks -

 

[Gurame1121]

Hey there,

Not too far off from your story myself actually! What you do will really depend on whether you want to go DO or MD.

If you go DO, you'll have the opportunity to retake the classes you didn't do so well in and literally have the old grades replaced with the most recent ones. It might also help to take some additional upper division classes to further back your academic ability. This honestly might be the most efficient way to get into a med school at this point as the review you'll get in retaking the classes will also help you prepare for the MCAT. On that note, while the grade replacement is nice, you're going to have to really make the other aspects of your application shine to ensure the admissions committees that this isn't some on the fly decision and that you're ready for medical school. Also, I'm not sure if you were a strong math student or not, but DO schools only count BCP classes in the sGPA (I'm pretty thankful for this). This route could potentially leave you with a pretty high sGPA if you really kick butt in those retakes.

If you want to go MD, you honestly might have more of an uphill battle to face. Grade replacement is not a thing in MD admissions (they average your old grade with your new grade), so you'll have to weigh out whether it's worth retaking some classes over taking upper division classes. A key thing here is that if you've been out of the game for a while, you might not be able to handle upper division classes without a ton of self-relearning. Also note that if you already have a lot of credits, it's going to be tough to put improve that GPA. A special master's is another option and the successful completion of one will make you competitive for MD school. The tradeoff is that these are pretty expensive (though worth it if you get in) and would be almost impossible without an insane amount of basic science review beforehand. This route might be a lot harder, but with a strong upward trend, you could be competitive considering your story.

I'm sure others will have plenty to add!

 

[popopopop]

General consensus would be to retake any F's and even C's if they are pre-reqs (bio, chem, physics). This will refresh your knowledge and prepare you for the upper level classes, such as biochem or genetics. You're going to need a lot of credits of straight A's to recover that science gpa. I'm at 50 credits (still maybe 10-15 left) and I'm still nervous about how my post-bac will be viewed.

About the CLS, not sure how useful that is unless you have actual patient contact, which would be the only thing that counts for clinical exposure. There's nothing wrong with just having volunteering for health care exposure. If you have a stable job now, keep it and do a post-bac and kill it!

 

[Mainer3400]

I'm a weird case. Here's a quick overview of what I've got, science/math only:

Basics:

Bio I - B
Bio II - C

Chem I - B
Chem II - D, then C+ (retaken in the past once already. my school did grade replacement - how is this handled?)

Physics I - B
Physics II - F

Micro - A

AnSci courses:

A&P Animals: B+
Animal Nutrition: B (does this count as science? was 100% technical)
Animal Genetics - C- ???
Animal Cell & Molecular Bio - C+ ????

Math:

Calc - B
Accounting - A ???? does this count?

Senior year I switched majors to Journalism, got my act together and aced everything. I assume I'd need to re-take all those in bold, plus Orgo, Biochem. What about the AnSci stuff - should I take a (human) genetics and cell bio? What about human A&P?

Post-grad I took one semester of an MFA and aced it (quit as ROI was way too red).

I also started an MBA through work, which first involved undergrad classes since I wasn't a biz major. So I took Biz Law, Microecon, Macroecon, Accounting, and Mgmt Info Systems and aced it (quit when corporate funding stopped - bad profits years). I assume those will apply as post-bacc?

I was considering the CLS as that would give me a fall-back in case things don't work out. It would cover one semester of Orgo and Biochem also, so I'd just have to add one Orgo. In addition, it would include other health topics - immunology, advanced cell bio, lab technique, etc. I'd gain something like 40 credits of science just through that.

Don't want to do an SMP or formal post-bacc as I'd rather keep working while doing courses. We've got a nice nest egg but I'd like it to be as large as possible before I quit.

Definitely need to get an AMCAS spreadsheet and see what this would do for me.

 

[bbbaaa]

Informal post-bacc shooting for DO so you can replace your low science GPA. Replace bolded pre-req grades and then complete any additional pre-reqs you're missing. Not sure how all those animal classes fit in. Accounting will not count for math but I don't think you need any more.

 

[popopopop]

Those animal classes, if taught in bio department, should be science classes. I have several animal type classes at my university that are taught in the bio department. That CLS degree is starting to look great from what you posted. However, if it's considered a master's program, it will be calculated separately from your undergrad gpa, so it won't help your cumulative gpa.


Check this out for your calculator.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/amcas-aacomas-gpa-calculator.1122068/

 

[Mainer3400]

Okay! So my Animal Science classes were all in their own department. They were not part of the biology department. I.e., they had their own prefix "ANIMLSCI".

It's actually better if those aren't counted - using the calculator above, if I don't count my AnSci classes (so only things with chem, phys, bio or math heading), my current AMCAS science GPA is 3.45. Not sure how this is correct. Looking into the actual formula used.........

If I do count those it's obviously less.

Thoughts??

Still need to figure out the difference if I did the CLS versus not.

 

[popopopop]

Course classification is based on content not department offering it. So all your animal courses above with the exception of nutrition would likely be classified BCPM

Whoa whoa whoa, my world is turned upside down right now. I've been following this guide below and stuff I've just found on this board. I don't mean to mislead anyone, as you probably know more about the process. Looks like his animal classes should be under the Natural & Physical Sciences heading?

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/181694/data/amcas_course_classification_guide.pdf

 

[popopopop]

I realized I didn't read it as closely after your earlier post, since he did say genetics and cell & molecular bio. Learned something new, so you should probably listen to gonnif.

 

[Mainer3400]

Alright, ran the numbers more closely. If I pursue that CLS degree (it's 47 credits), plus Orgo II and Phys II, I could bring my science GPA up to 3.3.

Knowing that, would I still want to replace those pre-reqs from the past that were C's? I.e. Bio II and Chem II? Doing that would only net me an extra .07 on the BCPM.

 

[Gurame1121]

The ROI on retakes might not be worth it with the way MD schools calculate GPA. You're much better off reviewing the material on your own and focusing your efforts on getting A's in some upper level chem and bio classes.

 

[clausewitz2]

OP, there is a pattern in what you posted about your history that may be as problematic as the GPA issues you are facing. Namely, you seem to have started a lot of degree programs and quit in the first year. This is not something that is going to recommend you to people steeped in the culture of medicine, which expects you quite frequently to do boring, awful things that you could not care less about on very little sleep and still perform at a high level. And then get up the next day and do it again for years at a time.

You will need a good explanation of why you are not going to quit in the first year when you become disenchanted with how dull preclinical classes are, or after your first week of night float in third year when the bone-crushing tedium only possible in a hospital first strikes. Not saying I think you are anything but sincere in your current aspiration, but you will need to explain very well why this time is not at all like the othera. I would not recommend "oh, I ran the numbers and it wasn't worth the money."

 

[jl lin]

Why assume that you can't do an SMP or some other kind of formal PB--other than degree-changer type of PB--since they often prefer that you don't have a lot of sciences?

 

[Mainer3400]

OP, there is a pattern in what you posted about your history that may be as problematic as the GPA issues you are facing. Namely, you seem to have started a lot of degree programs and quit in the first year. This is not something that is going to recommend you to people steeped in the culture of medicine, which expects you quite frequently to do boring, awful things that you could not care less about on very little sleep and still perform at a high level. And then get up the next day and do it again for years at a time.

You will need a good explanation of why you are not going to quit in the first year when you become disenchanted with how dull preclinical classes are, or after your first week of night float in third year when the bone-crushing tedium only possible in a hospital first strikes. Not saying I think you are anything but sincere in your current aspiration, but you will need to explain very well why this time is not at all like the othera. I would not recommend "oh, I ran the numbers and it wasn't worth the money."

Absolutely agree. It is my biggest flaw that I have picked and pecked at many different things without committing to any singular one of them in a significant way. It is time to change my life in that regard, and I know I will need to demonstrate this in no uncertain terms.

Although, having worked in corporate America, ROI is something I always consider now. Money rules the world. Money makes things possible. Money can make an enormous difference. That question I've heard referenced - "would you take $10M or go to med school?" I'd take the $10M. You could fund the educations of dozens and dozens of highly qualified physicians with that, invest a portion for a modest return, and have the beginnings of an endowment. You could create a socially responsible investment vehicle and change the lives of entire communities. Sacrifice my own ability to practice medicine for that kind of impact? No question.

Anyone who doesn't consider the financial repercussions of their decisions is blinding themselves. The group at 80,000 hours has been a strong influence on my thinking in this regard.

In any case, I intend to pursue the CLS degree, which will take me approximately 3 years to complete, while working full time for half of that. I want to be as sure as anyone that I am committed and prepared for this, since I do indeed understand the cost (both financial and ethical) of a bad admittance. Taking someone else's seat, only to quit? A terrible crime I won't let myself commit.

Even if I never make it to med school, doing the coursework needed will be worthwhile to me. I see it as doing penance for squandering my past opportunities as much as anything else, a chance to see how hard I can drive myself, and a way to make a difference in my community one day - even if not as a physician.