Need advice.

[Anesthesia94]

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Hello everyone, this is my first post to this site and I am in need of a little advice.

I am currently a nursing student set to graduate in May of 2021. My college journey began in 2012 when I graduated high school and I started my AA at the local state college. The only desire I had at the time was to serve as an officer in the armed forces, so my grades were not a priority during the course of my AA or BS degree. I completed my AA degree at the state college and attended Florida State University for my BS where I pursued a degree in criminology. My final semester of my bachelor of science degree, I decided against military service (for reasons that are irrelevant to the purpose of this post) and I knew I had to start over. I landed on healthcare as a career choice but was stuck between trying my hand at medical school (which I knew was a longshot) and nursing school. For reasons obvious (poor grades, late to start, etc..), I decided to attend nursing school. After attending nursing school, I have realized the love I have for the healthcare field but I find myself wanting more. I am either going to practice medicine as a physician or a nurse practitioner (obviously I would prefer to attend medical school), but need advice on how to proceed.

I will post my GPA step-by-step below, but my grades since graduating FSU have been perfect. I received an A in every prerequisite to nursing school as well as nursing school itself. We do not receive GPA credit for clinical courses as these courses are designated pass-fail, but the remainder of my RN courses are listed below as well as my prior AA and BS degrees and the overall cumulative GPA. These grades are all unweighted and repeat courses include both the original attempt and subsequent attempt.

AA: 65 Credits at 2.45
BS: 63 Credits at 3.32
Non-Degree (RN-Prerequisites): 28 Credits at 4.00
AS (RN-Current): 20 Credits at 4.00
AS (RN-Future): 15 Credits at 4.00
Cumulative Undergraduate: 176 Credits at 3.18 (not counting the future RN courses)

Additionally, I don't have any special circumstances surrounding my initially low grades other than what I have already listed nor do I have any shadowing or volunteer hours. I will be a registered nurse for a few years before I apply to medical school however, something that I hope strengthens my application.

I have always been an intelligent individual who could accomplish anything that I put my mind to, but I unfortunately just didn't care about school during my BS degree and these low grades are really holding me back from pursuing a dream of mine.

My questions are as follows:

1) While my cumulative GPA may currently be low, I have already completed the most challenging year of nursing school and I am all but guaranteed in receiving an A for the remaining 15 graded credits of the program. Furthermore, if I am to take the remaining credits I am missing in medical school prerequisites (28 credits), I am certain I would finish with at least a 3.5 in those courses, but likely higher. My question is, despite low grades initially, will an almost perfect or perfect upward trend in grades, a potentially above average MCAT, and a potential ~3.3 cumulative GPA make me competitive enough as a candidate? Additionally, it is worth noting I will only be applying to MD or DO programs in the State of Florida where I live. Is it worth a shot at becoming a physician or should I just give up and become a nurse practitioner? For the record, I wouldn't attend an online nurse practitioner program, but rather a brick-and-mortar school.

2) If I do attempt to get into medical school, what advice do you give me to strengthen my application? I have heard of advising services, but these things cost thousands of dollars and I don't want to spend the money if I don't think my odds are good (hence why I am here).

3) Unrelated to my odds, If I do attempt at getting in to medical school, as far as the prerequisites go for biology, I have completed Bio 1, A&P 1 and 2, and Micro. Will these courses suffice or do I need Bio 2?

I know this is a long post, but I would appreciate all the help I can get. Thank you all in advance.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

How have you done in med school pre reqs? Med schools do screen for gpa, but not all of them. I dont think you have completed all of the med school pre reqs yet. Also, you will need vol hours and ECs showing leadership. Some nursing credits wont count, so check with your fla med schools website to understand their requirements. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[Anesthesia94]

How have you done in med school pre reqs? Med schools do screen for gpa, but not all of them. I dont think you have completed all of the med school pre reqs yet. Also, you will need vol hours and ECs showing leadership. Some nursing credits wont count, so check with your fla med schools website to understand their requirements. Good luck and best wishes!

All I have completed that is specifically required for med school is Bio 1. I have additionally completed A&P 1, A&P 2, and Micro during my time of nursing prerequisites. Some schools just require 8 hours of Biology but others require Biology 1 and 2 specifically. Because of this, I intend to take Bio 2 to increase my chances.

That being said, everything I have completed as a nursing prerequisite and everything I have completed in nursing school has been an A. I intend to keep the trend through my premed prerequisites (Bio 2, Chem 1 and 2, Organic, Biochem, and Physics) and hope for a perfect 4.0 but can count on at least a 3.5 in the remaining 7 courses of premed prerequisites that I require.

What I was asking though was assuming around a 3.3 cumulative, an above average MCAT, being an experienced RN, and some shadowing/volunteering hours, what are my chances of acceptance? What can I do to make those chances greater?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

All I have completed that is specifically required for med school is Bio 1. I have additionally completed A&P 1, A&P 2, and Micro during my time of nursing prerequisites. Some schools just require 8 hours of Biology but others require Biology 1 and 2 specifically. Because of this, I intend to take Bio 2 to increase my chances.

That being said, everything I have completed as a nursing prerequisite and everything I have completed in nursing school has been an A. I intend to keep the trend through my premed prerequisites (Bio 2, Chem 1 and 2, Organic, Biochem, and Physics) and hope for a perfect 4.0 but can count on at least a 3.5 in the remaining 7 courses of premed prerequisites that I require.

What I was asking though was assuming around a 3.3 cumulative, an above average MCAT, being an experienced RN, and some shadowing/volunteering hours, what are my chances of acceptance? What can I do to make those chances greater?

A 3.3 avg will get you screened at many schools, regardless of your MCAT. Lots of threads on SDN on high MCAT and low gpa, give them a search. Your RN wont get you a lot of mileage regarding your low gpa. State MD schools and DO schools are your best bet. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[candbgirl]

One thing to remember that during each application cycle just over 40% of ALL applicants are accepted at any med school. About half of that number are accepted at one school and the rest at two or more. This means that around 60% (or a little less) are out right rejected each cycle. This includes applicants with stellar applications. So all you can do it build your application to be the best picture of you possible. Don’t put a timeline on your application cycle. Apply when you are ready, when all holes are filled in your application and you application screams “pick me” to every person that reads it. Good luck.

 

[deleted1066189]

Why not just stick it out with nursing? The grass is always greener...the path to becoming a doctor is a minimum of 7 years (and a lot of debt)

 

[Select All That Apply]

Why not just stick it out with nursing? The grass is always greener...the path to becoming a doctor is a minimum of 7 years (and a lot of debt)

In my personal opinion, Florida has been the worst state that I have ever practiced in on a travel gig, it was not worth the pay. I can see why RNs working in the state either want to transition out quickly into NP, leave the state altogether, or want to do something else entirely.

 

[Anesthesia94]

One thing to remember that during each application cycle just over 40% of ALL applicants are accepted at any med school. About half of that number are accepted at one school and the rest at two or more. This means that around 60% (or a little less) are out right rejected each cycle. This includes applicants with stellar applications. So all you can do it build your application to be the best picture of you possible. Don’t put a timeline on your application cycle. Apply when you are ready, when all holes are filled in your application and you application screams “pick me” to every person that reads it. Good luck.

Short of having a huge upward trend (straight A's in nursing prerequisites, nursing school, and hopefully my medical prerequisites), doing well on the MCAT, and gaining some volunteer/shadowing hours, what else can I do?

From my understanding, the whole point of the volunteer and shadowing hours is to demonstrate your desire to help others, which my nursing experience would additionally demonstrate.

 

[Anesthesia94]

A 3.3 avg will get you screened at many schools, regardless of your MCAT. Lots of threads on SDN on high MCAT and low gpa, give them a search. Your RN wont get you a lot of mileage regarding your low gpa. State MD schools and DO schools are your best bet. Good luck and best wishes!

What do you mean screened? Doesn't every application get screened?

 

[Anesthesia94]

Why not just stick it out with nursing? The grass is always greener...the path to becoming a doctor is a minimum of 7 years (and a lot of debt)

I'm not sure if ill be happy as a nurse practitioner. Don't get me wrong, i'm a firm believer that structured education is not the only way to achieve knowledge; while my DNP program might not be as thorough as medical school, I can fill the gaps myself with self-study of more advanced material and experience in the acute care setting. States are even granting NPs independent practice that is consistent with their education, so the scope of practice is becoming more of a null point day by day.

My issue lies in the fact that physicians don't generally respect NPs and this legitimately bothers me for something that will take me 4 years to achieve while working full-time. I should add that I am not one of those militant nurses who thinks NP>MD, trust me, i'm not. Physicians earn their titles and they go through a trial by fire to practice medicine. That being said, when an NP and/or PA graduates, physicians become colleagues not superiors and to be looked down on as a second class citizen by my colleagues would probably bother me.

 

[candbgirl]

What do you mean screened? Doesn't every application get screened?

Most schools automatically send secondary applications to all applicants without much , if any screening. Once the secondary gets back they can screen anyway they want: GPA, MCAT, legacy applicant, URM etc.
Some schools do screen before sending a secondary. Schools can set any parameters they want to set to develop their pool of applicants.

 

[Anesthesia94]

In my personal opinion, Florida has been the worst state that I have ever practiced in on a travel gig, it was not worth the pay. I can see why RNs working in the state either want to transition out quickly into NP, leave the state altogether, or want to do something else entirely.

Florida does have some of the worst pay for doctors and nurses in the country but we also have no state income tax, a low cost of living in most areas of the state, etc...

That being said, this is my home. This is the only place I have ever lived and I don't know if I could ever leave it.

 

[Anesthesia94]

Most schools automatically send secondary applications to all applicants without much , if any screening. Once the secondary gets back they can screen anyway they want: GPA, MCAT, legacy applicant, URM etc.
Some schools do screen before sending a secondary. Schools can set any parameters they want to set to develop their pool of applicants.

My BCPM will probably be a 3.7 or so, but the cumulative will be right around that 3.3 mark. I will also have an upward trend in grades and a decent enough MCAT (I presume). Do you think its even worth my time, or should I just pursue a DNP instead?

 

[candbgirl]

Short of having a huge upward trend (straight A's in nursing prerequisites, nursing school, and hopefully my medical prerequisites), doing well on the MCAT, and gaining some volunteer/shadowing hours, what else can I do?

From my understanding, the whole point of the volunteer and shadowing hours is to demonstrate your desire to help others, which my nursing experience would additionally demonstrate.

I’m really sorry you didn’t like my post . Everyone here is trying to help you. How long have you been a member of SDN? Perhaps you should take a step back and read some of the WAMC threads and see what other applicants have in the way of ECs. Applying to med school is sort of a crap shoot. Not everyone gets in, even those with near perfect applications. The average GPA for MD matriculated students is 3.71. Your GPA is well below that.

The purpose of shadowing is to see what you are getting yourself into. See how a doc spends the day . Not just in a hospital setting but in clinics, offices, fighting with insurance companies, counseling patients etc. Your clinical experiences will be fine. Then there is the nonclinical volunteering serving the unserved/underserved in your community. You can volunteer at homeless shelters, soup kitchens, food banks, camps for sick kids, coaching a team sport comprised of underprivileged kids. Something that shows your altruism and gets you out of your comfort zone.

 

[Anesthesia94]

I’m really sorry you didn’t like my post . Everyone here is trying to help you. How long have you been a member of SDN? Perhaps you should take a step back and read some of the WAMC threads and see what other applicants have in the way of ECs. Applying to med school is sort of a crap shoot. Not everyone gets in, even those with near perfect applications. The average GPA for MD matriculated students is 3.71. Your GPA is well below that.

The purpose of shadowing is to see what you are getting yourself into. See how a doc spends the day . Not just in a hospital setting but in clinics, offices, fighting with insurance companies, counseling patients etc. Your clinical experiences will be fine. Then there is the nonclinical volunteering serving the unserved/underserved in your community. You can volunteer at homeless shelters, soup kitchens, food banks, camps for sick kids, coaching a team sport comprised of underprivileged kids. Something that shows your altruism and gets you out of your comfort zone.

Not at all, I honestly appreciated your post and you taking the time. I did just recently join SDN because I need the advice as I have reached an impasse in my life. That being said, I was asking a genuine question; do you think given my situation its worth me taking the risk or should I just continue with the nursing career path and become a DNP?

Like I said, my cGPA will be close to the 3.3, but my science GPA will be considerably higher and my MCAT should be above average as I am a pretty strong test taker. Additionally, I intend to shadow and volunteer on top of being an experienced nurse at my time of application. At the end of the day, I get to practice medicine either way, its just one way is somewhat superior to the other. I just need advice because I have no one else to lean on to ask these questions. My family are all medical muggles and the only friends I have in the field are nurses. Its obvious what most nurses will tell me to do, because they're biased.

 

[candbgirl]

None of us can answer that question for you. Just know you will be taking an uphill battle and there’s at least a 60% chance you will be unsuccessful. You have a better path to becoming a physician if you apply DO. So you should seriously consider that too. Just a FYI, don’t take the MCAT until you have completed all of the med school pre reqs. Don’t take it until you are consistently scoring at or above your target goal on several FL practice tests.

 

[KnightDoc]

In my personal opinion, Florida has been the worst state that I have ever practiced in on a travel gig, it was not worth the pay. I can see why RNs working in the state either want to transition out quickly into NP, leave the state altogether, or want to do something else entirely.

Why is FL so bad??

 

[KnightDoc]

What do you mean screened? Doesn't every application get screened?

It was short hand for screened out.

 

[KnightDoc]

None of us can answer that question for you. Just know you will be taking an uphill battle and there’s at least a 60% chance you will be unsuccessful. You have a better path to becoming a physician if you apply DO. So you should seriously consider that too. Just a FYI, don’t take the MCAT until you have completed all of the med school pre reqs. Don’t take it until you are consistently scoring at or above your target goal on several FL practice tests.

This^^^^^^. If you don't have the time or desire to significantly improve your cGPA, you could very well be successful due to the strong upward trend, but DO is a lot more forgiving of lower GPAs, so you will greatly increase your odds of success if you apply to them as well.

 

[LunaOri]

I'm not sure if ill be happy as a nurse practitioner. Don't get me wrong, i'm a firm believer that structured education is not the only way to achieve knowledge; while my DNP program might not be as thorough as medical school, I can fill the gaps myself with self-study of more advanced material and experience in the acute care setting. States are even granting NPs independent practice that is consistent with their education, so the scope of practice is becoming more of a null point day by day.

My issue lies in the fact that physicians don't generally respect NPs and this legitimately bothers me for something that will take me 4 years to achieve while working full-time. I should add that I am not one of those militant nurses who thinks NP>MD, trust me, i'm not. Physicians earn their titles and they go through a trial by fire to practice medicine. That being said, when an NP and/or PA graduates, physicians become colleagues not superiors and to be looked down on as a second class citizen by my colleagues would probably bother me.

“Colleagues” does not necessarily mean “equals”.

 

[Anesthesia94]

“Colleagues” does not necessarily mean “equals”.

With all due respect, your making my point for me. Physicians look at NPs and PAs as second class citizens because they didn't go through as much to get where they are.

 

[Anesthesia94]

This^^^^^^. If you don't have the time or desire to significantly improve your cGPA, you could very well be successful due to the strong upward trend, but DO is a lot more forgiving or lower GPAs, so you will greatly increase your odds of success if you apply to them as well.

I intended to apply to every medical school in Florida. There are 8 MD programs and 2 DO programs at 3 different sites.

 

[LunaOri]

With all due respect, your making my point for me. Physicians look at NPs and PAs as second class citizens because they didn't go through as much to get where they are.

If by “didn’t go through as much” you mean “don’t have equivalent education, training, and experience”, then yes. Each of those degrees has a different career path. Pick the one that best suits you.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

What do you mean screened? Doesn't every application get screened?

Screened,...aka put in the circular filing cabinet, rejected .

 

[Med Ed]

I know this is a long post, but I would appreciate all the help I can get. Thank you all in advance.

1. Medical schools don't care about nursing coursework. At all.
2. A few semesters of recent undergrad coursework, including prereqs, with a high GPA can allay concerns about your academic readiness. This is what postbacs were made for. You can't "fix" your cGPA at this point, but if a school looks at your entire academic record and sees maturation then you may have a shot.
3. A solid MCAT would be necessary. This is non-negotiable.
4. Longitudinal involvement with a community service organization is strongly advised.

 

[Anesthesia94]

1. Medical schools don't care about nursing coursework. At all.
2. A few semesters of recent undergrad coursework, including prereqs, with a high GPA can allay concerns about your academic readiness. This is what postbacs were made for. You can't "fix" your cGPA at this point, but if a school looks at your entire academic record and sees maturation then you may have a shot.
3. A solid MCAT would be necessary. This is non-negotiable.
4. Longitudinal involvement with a community service organization is strongly advised.

I didn't say they care about nursing coursework; I said they would (hopefully) care about hands-on patient care experience as a RN and in turn, LORs from physicians who have worked with me and can testify to my competency/drive.

Thank you for the advice.

 

[Anesthesia94]

Screened,...aka put in the circular filing cabinet, rejected .

Generally speaking, don't applications below a 3.0 get screened? I figured applications above that point were considered legitimate applications.

 

[Anesthesia94]

If by “didn’t go through as much” you mean “don’t have equivalent education, training, and experience”, then yes. Each of those degrees has a different career path. Pick the one that best suits you.

I understand fully that physicians have more education, training, and experience than a NP/PA. I think the part that bothers me is that even when an NP/PA demonstrates a commitment to gaining medical knowledge through self-directed study outside of school and experience in a clinical setting, they are still looked down upon by many physicians, which is the very problem I have with pursuing that career path.

 

[KnightDoc]

I intended to apply to every medical school in Florida. There are 8 MD programs and 2 DO programs at 3 different sites.

Do you have the ability to go outside FL? Limiting yourself to one state severely limits your opportunities for success. This applies to everyone. While FL might appear to be better than most, due to its having 8 MD schools, the success rate for FL residents applying to MD is actually one of the lowest in the country (34% - only UT and AZ are lower).

 

[KnightDoc]

I didn't say they care about nursing coursework; I said they would (hopefully) care about hands-on patient care experience as a RN and in turn, LORs from physicians who have worked with me and can testify to my competency/drive.

Thank you for the advice.

I think what he means is that the 4.0 for nursing coursework won't get a lot of respect, or a lot of weight, so you'll need other post-bacc coursework to help mititgate your UG GPA.

 

[KnightDoc]

Generally speaking, don't applications below a 3.0 get screened? I figured applications above that point were considered legitimate applications.

Yes, and depends. 3.3 is definitely better than 2.9, but, of course, not as good as 3.5. Every school has a different cutoff. The schools you are considering are likely closer to 3.0, but still. And, clearing the first cutoff certainly does not guarantee success, and 3.3 is far below the MD median of 3.7. It is more than fine for DO.

 

[candbgirl]

Very few MD schools require a letter from a Physician. DO schools seem to require/want/like them. Try to get one from a DO but I’ve heard one from a MD will suffice.
Check very carefully the LOR requirements for each school. Many requirements are very specific and they usually include letters from various science and non science professors. So be sure you check that out.

There seems to be an underlying theme that you think nurses are not valued by physicians. I find that really wrong. Nurses are hard working people who are a vital part of the medical team. In my experience nurses are valued by physicians. Of course I think we have all come upon a mid level who really thinks they know more than the doctor and knows what treatment plan is best. It’s important to be respectful to all members of the medical team.

 

[Anesthesia94]

I think what he means is that the 4.0 for nursing coursework won't get a lot of respect, or a lot of weight, so you'll need other post-bacc coursework to help mititgate your UG GPA.

I am still in need of 7 prerequisites to medical school, so if I do as well in those as I did in my nursing prerequisites and program, I figure I at least have a chance with a strong MCAT and some shadowing/volunteering. Would you concur with that?

My fiancé works for Disney and that is her career. Having to live in two separate cities in the state is already hard enough (unless I get into UCF in which case we could live together); I couldn't put her through living in two separate states. We would never see each other.

 

[Anesthesia94]

Very few MD schools require a letter from a Physician. DO schools seem to require/want/like them. Try to get one from a DO but I’ve heard one from a MD will suffice.
Check very carefully the LOR requirements for each school. Many requirements are very specific and they usually include letters from various science and non science professors. So be sure you check that out.

There seems to be an underlying theme that you think nurses are not valued by physicians. I find that really wrong. Nurses are hard working people who are a vital part of the medical team. In my experience nurses are valued by physicians. Of course I think we have all come upon a mid level who really thinks they know more than the doctor and knows what treatment plan is best. It’s important to be respectful to all members of the medical team.

Actually quite the contrary; I have always seen nurses and physicians have tremendous respect for one another. I think that (most) physicians don't respect advanced practice providers (APPs) because of a few bad eggs who incorrectly act like they know more than the doctor.

 

[KnightDoc]

I am still in need of 7 prerequisites to medical school, so if I do as well in those as I did in my nursing prerequisites and program, I figure I at least have a chance with a strong MCAT and some shadowing/volunteering. Would you concur with that?

My fiancé works for Disney and that is her career. Having to live in two separate cities in the state is already hard enough (unless I get into UCF in which case we could live together); I couldn't put her through living in two separate states. We would never see each other.

Definitely if you do well in the pre-reqs, and have a compelling story of why RN to MD. Also, I am 99% sure UCF is one of the 3.0 schools, and they are really into "why us" "why FL" and "why Orlando," so you would absolutely have a leg up with all of them. I think you'd have a great shot at most FL schools with a good MCAT, but you just have to be aware of what you are up against. FL 2019-20 stats -- 3,493 applicants -- 708 matriculated IS, 481 matriculated OOS, and 2,304 did not matriculate.

 

[Anesthesia94]

Yes, and depends. 3.3 is definitely better than 2.9, but, of course, not as good as 3.5. Every school has a different cutoff. The schools you are considering are likely closer to 3.0, but still. And, clearing the first cutoff certainly does not guarantee success, and 3.3 is far below the median for 3.7. It is more than fine for DO.

Thanks for the clarification. If there is one thing I learned so far in this journey, nothing guarantees success at getting into medical school. A 528 and 4.0 doesn't even guarantee you a spot. Yet every single year, people with GPAs as low as 2.0 get into MD programs in this country because they had something that sets them apart. I think my priority at this point, should I chose to pursue this path, is to find what makes me special and try to sell that to the admissions committees.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

@Goro , thoughts?

 

[candbgirl]

Thanks for the clarification. If there is one thing I learned so far in this journey, nothing guarantees success at getting into medical school. A 528 and 4.0 doesn't even guarantee you a spot. Yet every single year, people with GPAs as low as 2.0 get into MD programs in this country because they had something that sets them apart. I think my priority at this point, should I chose to pursue this path, is to find what makes me special and try to sell that to the admissions committees.

Understand that frequently the thing that the sets them apart is being URM, grad of the undergrad, guaranteed spot from the linked SMP, a legacy, parent makes a huge donation, friend of the Dean etc. etc.etc... I’m not sure that a MD school (or DO for that matter)is doing any favors accepting a student with a 2.0 uGPA.

 

[Medisaint]

I agree with all the advice above.

Some of the things you mentioned raised alarm bells in my head though.
I consider MD and NP fundamentally separate career paths despite some practical overlap. I think it's worth pausing for a second to make sure NP is a good "Plan B" for you. You said:

I am either going to practice medicine as a physician or a nurse practitioner (obviously I would prefer to attend medical school), but need advice on how to proceed.

At the end of the day, I get to practice medicine either way, its just one way is somewhat superior to the other.

My issue lies in the fact that physicians don't generally respect NPs and this legitimately bothers me for something that will take me 4 years to achieve while working full-time

I'll share a few related anecdotes.

I have a relative who is a nurse who hates being a nurse. She had a lifelong aspiration to become a doctor but ultimately balked at the last minute and decided to go to nursing school instead. She regrets her decision to this day. The tragedy is not that she didn't pursue the MD (I honestly don't think she would have made a good doctor) but rather that she went into nursing as a substitute. This is someone who could have succeeded in so many other fields but ultimately chose a profession that forced her to live in the shadow of her dream. In her mind she is a nurse who failed to make it as a doctor. This left her with an inferiority complex and an over idealized impression of what it's like to be a doctor.

Aside from this relative, I have met numerous nurses along the course of my training that seem very discontent with the nursing role. The friction tends to be worst on teams that have junior doctors and senior nurses with strong opinions. As an intern and resident I did my best to be respectful and friendly to nurses (which paid massive dividends) but conflict was not always avoidable. What happens when a nurse says "I've been a nurse for 25 years and I know this patient needs an X/Y/Z scan, medication or consult" but as the resident you know that's wrong, who "wins"? The resident will (and should) always get the final say because he/she is the MD who puts the orders in. However, It doesn't take much empathy to imagine how these interactions can engender bitterness and promote passive aggressive behavior (IMO the ugliest personality traits).

For someone who truly wants to be a doctor, I worry that being a midlevel will not be much better. The midlevel role was carved out for systems-level expediency/cost rather than individual patient care or team harmony. Many physicians resent midlevels for a variety of reasons (look up the "we choose NPs" thread for a year-long rant against midlevels by disgruntled physicians).

I firmly believe that midlevels can be extremely valuable to a team but only when they stay in their lanes. I've seen overconfident NPs/PAs screw up patient care multiple times by escalating too late or giving uninformed pushback on decisions. Frequently undergirding these conflicts is a theme of wanting to practice medicine beyond the scope of their training. To be a good NP or PA you have to be content with not having a physician's level of autonomy or perspective. You have to be secure with the fact that every new patient you meet (except for the two in the AANP commercial) will prefer MDs to midlevels. You have to have the inner-peace to accept that no matter how hard or long you work you will never be a doctor. This is unacceptable for some people--myself included.

Before taking the plunge you should ask yourself if you are too proud, too opinionated, too obsessive for this kind of work? Do you need to have a complete picture of a situation and know exactly why you are doing something? Do you need to be able to make your own decisions and plans?

Personally, I could not be an RN, NP or PA regardless of how close to healthcare it got me or what ancillary lifestyle perks those paths offered. If I couldn't be a doctor would go into something else entirely.

 

[Goro]

1) While my cumulative GPA may currently be low, I have already completed the most challenging year of nursing school and I am all but guaranteed in receiving an A for the remaining 15 graded credits of the program. Furthermore, if I am to take the remaining credits I am missing in medical school prerequisites (28 credits), I am certain I would finish with at least a 3.5 in those courses, but likely higher. My question is, despite low grades initially, will an almost perfect or perfect upward trend in grades, a potentially above average MCAT, and a potential ~3.3 cumulative GPA make me competitive enough as a candidate? Additionally, it is worth noting I will only be applying to MD or DO programs in the State of Florida where I live. Is it worth a shot at becoming a physician or should I just give up and become a nurse practitioner? For the record, I wouldn't attend an online nurse practitioner program, but rather a brick-and-mortar school.

2) If I do attempt to get into medical school, what advice do you give me to strengthen my application? I have heard of advising services, but these things cost thousands of dollars and I don't want to spend the money if I don't think my odds are good (hence why I am here).

3) Unrelated to my odds, If I do attempt at getting in to medical school, as far as the prerequisites go for biology, I have completed Bio 1, A&P 1 and 2, and Micro. Will these courses suffice or do I need Bio 2?

I know this is a long post, but I would appreciate all the help I can get. Thank you all in advance.

I agree 100% with the wise Med Ed.
Read this:
Med School Rx: Getting In, Getting Through, and Getting On with Doctoring Original Edition by Walter Hartwig
ISBN-13: 978-1607140627
ISBN-10: 1607140624

 

[Anesthesia94]

I agree with all the advice above.

Some of the things you mentioned raised alarm bells in my head though.
I consider MD and NP fundamentally separate career paths despite some practical overlap. I think it's worth pausing for a second to make sure NP is a good "Plan B" for you. You said:






I'll share a few related anecdotes.

I have a relative who is a nurse who hates being a nurse. She had a lifelong aspiration to become a doctor but ultimately balked at the last minute and decided to go to nursing school instead. She regrets her decision to this day. The tragedy is not that she didn't pursue the MD (I honestly don't think she would have made a good doctor) but rather that she went into nursing as a substitute. This is someone who could have succeeded in so many other fields but ultimately chose a profession that forced her to live in the shadow of her dream. In her mind she is a nurse who failed to make it as a doctor. This left her with an inferiority complex and an over idealized impression of what it's like to be a doctor.

Aside from this relative, I have met numerous nurses along the course of my training that seem very discontent with the nursing role. The friction tends to be worst on teams that have junior doctors and senior nurses with strong opinions. As an intern and resident I did my best to be respectful and friendly to nurses (which paid massive dividends) but conflict was not always avoidable. What happens when a nurse says "I've been a nurse for 25 years and I know this patient needs an X/Y/Z scan, medication or consult" but as the resident you know that's wrong, who "wins"? The resident will (and should) always get the final say because he/she is the MD who puts the orders in. However, It doesn't take much empathy to imagine how these interactions can engender bitterness and promote passive aggressive behavior (IMO the ugliest personality traits).

For someone who truly wants to be a doctor, I worry that being a midlevel will not be much better. The midlevel role was carved out for systems-level expediency/cost rather than individual patient care or team harmony. Many physicians resent midlevels for a variety of reasons (look up the "we choose NPs" thread for a year-long rant against midlevels by disgruntled physicians).

I firmly believe that midlevels can be extremely valuable to a team but only when they stay in their lanes. I've seen overconfident NPs/PAs screw up patient care multiple times by escalating too late or giving uninformed pushback on decisions. Frequently undergirding these conflicts is a theme of wanting to practice medicine beyond the scope of their training. To be a good NP or PA you have to be content with not having a physician's level of autonomy or perspective. You have to be secure with the fact that every new patient you meet (except for the two in the AANP commercial) will prefer MDs to midlevels. You have to have the inner-peace to accept that no matter how hard or long you work you will never be a doctor. This is unacceptable for some people--myself included.

Before taking the plunge you should ask yourself if you are too proud, too opinionated, too obsessive for this kind of work? Do you need to have a complete picture of a situation and know exactly why you are doing something? Do you need to be able to make your own decisions and plans?

Personally, I could not be an RN, NP or PA regardless of how close to healthcare it got me or what ancillary lifestyle perks those paths offered. If I couldn't be a doctor would go into something else entirely.

For argument's sake, let me present you with a few rebuttals so that I can hear your opinion. For the record, what I am about to discuss is not necessarily my opinion, but rather the counterargument for the case you just made from the midlevel's perspective.

1. For starters, I have seen it argued that NPs/PAs get to practice medicine without the bureaucratic aspects of practicing medicine. Essentially, they get to clock-in, make a positive impact on their patients, and clock-out without taking their work home with them. Would you agree or disagree with this statement?

2. NPs/PAs have a better work/life balance than physicians do. Agree/disagree?

3. NPs/PAs make the case that they get to practice medicine with a more limited education at the beginning of their careers but that through experience can become just as capable/competent as a physician. For example, an NP/PA with more experience than a physician can be just as capable if not more capable than that physician with less experience. For the record, I don't think anyone is arguing that a midlevel with the same experience as a physician is on the same level as the physician, but rather that a more experienced NP/PA can be just as good as a less experienced physician. Agree/disagree?

4. The majority of physicians respect the majority of midlevels and their competency/contribution as providers. The problem is a few disgruntled physicians who loathe the NP/PA population because of a few bad eggs who poorly represent the professions.

For the record, I think we can all agree that nurses are a vital member of the healthcare team and that nurses nor physicians would be able to perform their duties without the other profession in a clinical setting, at least not well. The point of contention these days is mostly between physicians and midlevels and that is what we are talking about here primarily.

Also, based on the mostly positive feedback I have received thus far, I am going to take my prerequisites for medicine while simultaneously taking my BSN. The reason for this, primarily, is because I do have a desire to be a physician but accept that no matter how good my grades/MCAT, there is not guarantee that I will matriculate; I require a backup plan and I believe that being an NP will suffice for that purpose. Do I think I will be AS happy as an NP when compared with being a physician? No, absolutely not. I can tell you, however, that its the next best thing. NPs can treat most patients who present with common conditions without the need of physician intervention (what the profession was designed for so physicians can treat the more critical/complicated cases). I would not feel threatened or inadequate when a patient presents with life-threatening multi-system disease that requires physician intervention because they do have more training than NPs and they are better prepared to deal with such a patient. I think both professions at this point need to acquire a better mutual respect for one another because as long as this back and forth bickering persists, its the patient who suffers.

 

[deleted1066189]

I do have a desire to be a physician but accept that no matter how good my grades/MCAT, there is not guarantee that I will matriculate; I require a backup plan

Good idea. Podiatry then.

and I believe that being an NP will suffice for that purpose.

Oh. Carry on then...

 

[Anesthesia94]

Good idea. Podiatry then.



Oh. Carry on then...

Podiatry is not a legitimate backup plan though. There are 10,000 podiatrists in the whole country and the BLS anticipates no new growth in the field over the next decade.

Look at the NP field by comparison: ~40% job growth with over 100,000 currently practicing. This is not only about getting into a program and graduating, its about finding a job afterwards.

 

[Goro]

I'm trying to be serious. This ego that your flaunting over the midlevels is exactly what I'm talking about needing to end. We get it... MD>NP/PA.

Podiatry is not a legitimate backup plan though. There are 10,000 podiatrists in the whole country and the BLS anticipates no new growth in the field over the next decade.

Look at the NP field by comparison: ~40% job growth with over 100,000 currently practicing. This is not only about getting into a program and graduating, its about finding a job afterwards.

There are already a gazillion threads on doctors vs midlevels. Would you like advice on getting into med school? If not, I suggest ending the thread.

 

[Anesthesia94]

There are already a gazillion threads on doctors vs midlevels. Would you like advice on getting into med school? If not, I suggest ending the thread.

Yes, I desire advice. I apologize. I lost my temper a bit earlier because I posted a genuine reply to “Medisaint” and someone else jumped in and patronized me.

Becoming a physician is the goal. I love nursing, I just know before I have even graduated that I want more.

 

[Med Ed]

Yes, I desire advice. I apologize. I lost my temper a bit earlier because I posted a genuine reply to “Medisaint” and someone else jumped in and patronized me.

Becoming a physician is the goal. I love nursing, I just know before I have even graduated that I want more.

Most of the good advice has been given. Until you have grades for the prerequisites and an MCAT score it will be difficult to offer further guidance.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I'm trying to be serious. This ego that your flaunting over the midlevels is exactly what I'm talking about needing to end. We get it... MD>NP/PA.

Podiatry is not a legitimate backup plan though. There are 10,000 podiatrists in the whole country and the BLS anticipates no new growth in the field over the next decade.

Look at the NP field by comparison: ~40% job growth with over 100,000 currently practicing. This is not only about getting into a program and graduating, its about finding a job afterwards.

Consider Podiatry for the exact reason you stated. There is little competition, and none on the horizon. Older DPMs are retiring. There is no mid level encroachment. My good friend and his wife are country DPM's. If you are inclined to do surgery, they do lots. They are very successful. Part owners in an outpatient surgery center. My wife and I are overpriced specialists and if my friend dropped his checkbook in the parking lot, I would burn mine. I have worked with DPM's along with Ortho foot specialists and the DPMs are very skillful, especially with local anesthetics. My DPM buddy cured my foot problems where local ortho foot specialists, who was an editor for Foot journal could not. Basically, I'm saying not to discount DPM. It's worth a look if you have any interest in surgery. BTW, they get paid by insurance at the same rate as orthopedists. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[candbgirl]

Consider Podiatry for the exact reason you stated. There is little competition, and none on the horizon. Older DPMs are retiring. There is no mid level encroachment. My good friend and his wife are country DPM's. If you are inclined to do surgery, they do lots. They are very successful. Part owners in an outpatient surgery center. My wife and I are overpriced specialists and if my friend dropped his checkbook in the parking lot, I would burn mine. I have worked with DPM's along with Ortho foot specialists and the DPMs are very skillful, especially with local anesthetics. My DPM buddy cured my foot problems where local ortho foot specialists, who was an editor for Foot journal could not. Basically, I'm saying not to discount DPM. It's worth a look if you have any interest in surgery. BTW, they get paid by insurance at the same rate as orthopedists. Good luck and best wishes.

THIS.
And with an aging population, there will always be a need for good podiatrists. I’ve been to a podiatrist several times and when I leave my feet feel so good.

 

[Medisaint]

For argument's sake, let me present you with a few rebuttals so that I can hear your opinion. For the record, what I am about to discuss is not necessarily my opinion, but rather the counterargument for the case you just made from the midlevel's perspective.

1. For starters, I have seen it argued that NPs/PAs get to practice medicine without the bureaucratic aspects of practicing medicine. Essentially, they get to clock-in, make a positive impact on their patients, and clock-out without taking their work home with them. Would you agree or disagree with this statement?

2. NPs/PAs have a better work/life balance than physicians do. Agree/disagree?

3. NPs/PAs make the case that they get to practice medicine with a more limited education at the beginning of their careers but that through experience can become just as capable/competent as a physician. For example, an NP/PA with more experience than a physician can be just as capable if not more capable than that physician with less experience. For the record, I don't think anyone is arguing that a midlevel with the same experience as a physician is on the same level as the physician, but rather that a more experienced NP/PA can be just as good as a less experienced physician. Agree/disagree?

4. The majority of physicians respect the majority of midlevels and their competency/contribution as providers. The problem is a few disgruntled physicians who loathe the NP/PA population because of a few bad eggs who poorly represent the professions.

For the record, I think we can all agree that nurses are a vital member of the healthcare team and that nurses nor physicians would be able to perform their duties without the other profession in a clinical setting, at least not well. The point of contention these days is mostly between physicians and midlevels and that is what we are talking about here primarily.

Also, based on the mostly positive feedback I have received thus far, I am going to take my prerequisites for medicine while simultaneously taking my BSN. The reason for this, primarily, is because I do have a desire to be a physician but accept that no matter how good my grades/MCAT, there is not guarantee that I will matriculate; I require a backup plan and I believe that being an NP will suffice for that purpose. Do I think I will be AS happy as an NP when compared with being a physician? No, absolutely not. I can tell you, however, that its the next best thing. NPs can treat most patients who present with common conditions without the need of physician intervention (what the profession was designed for so physicians can treat the more critical/complicated cases). I would not feel threatened or inadequate when a patient presents with life-threatening multi-system disease that requires physician intervention because they do have more training than NPs and they are better prepared to deal with such a patient. I think both professions at this point need to acquire a better mutual respect for one another because as long as this back and forth bickering persists, its the patient who suffers.

1) Half-agree. They do clock in/clock out and have better defined patient caps and schedules compared to interns & residents who generally have to stay until the work is complete. "Practicing medicine" can mean different things to different people. Attendings and interns practice medicine but have very different expectations. Midlevels in a sense are perpetual interns and can be either good or sucky within that context. Regarding bureaucracy , Midlevels can be used in a variety of roles but on inpatient services they will deal with a lot of the bureaucratic scutwork. Mirroring intern's day (which is about 80% scutwork), they will do things like writing progress notes, discharge logistics, making phone calls, arranging scans, getting outside records, contacting the patient's PCP etc while the final recommendations and directions will be decided by the attending. These skills are learned on the job and there is no reason why midlevels would not be able to do them on the level of a competent intern.

2) Agree. There is no question that the work/life balance is better.

3) Strongly disagree with premise. In the case of AMG vs IMGs or MDs vs DOs, discrepancies in training competencies can be overcome with time, study and hard work. DO schools are (on average) less competitive than allopathic ones but yet there are DOs who match to top subspecialties ahead of MD peers. With MD vs NP/PA this is not the case because these are fundamentally separate career paths--interns train to be attendings while midlevels train to be better midlevels. both fields have different metrics for what constitutes being "capable/competent".
And sure you can say that a seasoned midlevel will be more competent than a July intern at intern work but in 3 years that intern may be cosigning the midlevel's orders as an attending. Frankly, I don't play games I can't win--I don't get into shouting matches with patients, I don't pick fights with tattooed bikers, I don't date women with ex's in the picture. I see midlevels who want to compare their medical skillset to a physician's as lacking self-awareness and setting themselves up for trouble and disappointment.

4) Hard to answer. In an ideal world people would be judged individually, based on fair expectations but I think the pleasantness of your work environment will be determined largely by the physicians you work under and the culture of your institution. If you're the first NP a hospital hires expect an adjustment period. For better or for worse, the healthcare landscape is evolving and not everyone is able to accept that. If a doctor faults you for doing the job you were hired to do then shame on them, if you try to practice beyond the scope of your training then shame on you.

We can probably leave it at that as far as this thread goes. Happy to chat via DM if you want.
I will add that I've generally seen midlevels perform the best on subspecialty services (cardiology, GI, transplant, etc). By "specializing" as an NP/PA you are able to mitigate the deficit in breadth of medical knowledge/clinical experience. Meanwhile, areas like general medicine, primary care, and ICU tend to require great breadth for which you would be at a disadvantage. I think this is what people were getting at with the podiatry option. I would never trust a podiatrist with my kidneys or heart but I do trust them with feet.

 

[nimbus]

Consider Podiatry for the exact reason you stated. There is little competition, and none on the horizon. Older DPMs are retiring. There is no mid level encroachment. My good friend and his wife are country DPM's. If you are inclined to do surgery, they do lots. They are very successful. Part owners in an outpatient surgery center. My wife and I are overpriced specialists and if my friend dropped his checkbook in the parking lot, I would burn mine. I have worked with DPM's along with Ortho foot specialists and the DPMs are very skillful, especially with local anesthetics. My DPM buddy cured my foot problems where local ortho foot specialists, who was an editor for Foot journal could not. Basically, I'm saying not to discount DPM. It's worth a look if you have any interest in surgery. BTW, they get paid by insurance at the same rate as orthopedists. Good luck and best wishes.

Agree. Podiatry is very similar to very competitive surgical specialties like ortho, ENT, ophtho, and urology.